GFE vs non-GFE

I'm with you. GFE is awesome.

That wasn't about GFE being pathetic it was just how pathetic SJG is, he tries to bring emotions into it and want the prostitutes to really love him.

GFE is better but it isn't love, like with a real girlfriend.

My know it's all an act and that it's not "real love" and that just because she kisses you, cuddles, and and act like she likes you doesn't mean she likes anymore than a prostitute who just goes through the motions.

My point is that the sex is that much better when she kisses you, let's you finger her and pretty much have full access to her body, so it's worth paying more. To me paying for sex with no emotion means you are basically paying for just the orgasm.

I agree that GFE is the ultimate ITC club experience but a true GFE experience extends to the cost as well. A true GFE dancer does NOT charge you an absorbent price. The great part about having favorite dancers is knowing that your are going to get that GFE experience and at a reasonable price.

I agree, I prefer GFE. I have heard some people say that it's kinda pathetic to kiss and cuddle when your paying for it, but when you think about it what's really the difference from going on a date (or several usually) with someone you only intend to screw anyways. Really, how much is dinner(s), drinks, maybe a movie or going to a club, or whatever else it takes to get her in the sack, and at least with this you can pick who you want, know pretty much what your gonna get, and when it's done you don't have to worry about dodging her or ignoring annoying phone calls. It's like having a girlfriend without the baggage.

^ pretty much the way I see it - civvis come with extra overhead that I don't feel like dealing with (at least at this moment in time).

Depends on the girl with me. If I'm only into her looks, she probably is better off not talking or pretending she likes me, but if I'm into her banter and personality, hell yes GFE!!!

Plus, real girlfriends can somehow turn into wives, been there, done that, got the t-shirt, she got the t-shirt (and a lot more) in the divorce. This is so much easier and a world cheaper.

I think a true GFE needs to be in a bed and not ITC. The club environment itself makes a true GFE difficult if not impossible.

While obviously the emotional component in a GFE is not real, the lust and sexual passion can be very real. You know who I'm talking about. She's coming by for some afternoon delight in just a few minutes. My goal for today is 5 orgasms, then I cum either in her mouth on or her face. Who need emotion when you've got this?

I'm with you right up to BBFS. NOT! two reasons: I do not need any little travelers, I do not need any traveling companions like a virus or anything else.

I wouldn't pay $700 for sex with Mary Magdalene, let alone a stripper.As fare as gfe? Nothing wrong with some deep kissing while I decorate her body in white.

@skibum609 My ATF is no longer a stripper. She stopped dancing shortly after I started OTC with her. So I guess technically she is now an escort although I have no idea if she does this with anyone else. It took me a couple months before I got FS ITC with her so I don't think its something she normally does.

At $700 a pop no wonder she retired.

What does GFE stand for? And what would be considered GFE as far as the strip clubs go.

I see that term all the time in reviews, but I've never understood it.

^ it's defined in the TUSCL glossary.

GFE = girlfriend experience

It is sex with the some/all of the following:

Cuddling, French kissing, fingering her vagina, BBBJ, BBBJ with cumming in her mouth. It can happen in the club but it's much better outside the club. Basically she treats you like she is your girlfriend.

For OTC, it might include going out to dinner before sex. Typically a GFE isn't rushed, you get to take your time and enjoy it and possibly have sex multiple times instead of just once.

Sex with a stripper without GFE is basically just sex: no kissing, fingering, cuddling before/after.

If you haven't looked at the glossary I recommend you give it a read.

GFE stands for Girl Friend Experience. It is actually an escort terminology. I believe it started on the San Francisco Redbook. To me it sounds like something Taiwanese would makeup. They like little English based acronyms like that. The idea is that these Taiwanese girls working in AAMPs are to be providing sessions competitive with domestic escorts. So instead of being directed to take off your clothes which the girl gets tab A into slot B for you, in these shops the girl is going to let you seduce her and let you undress her yourself, and most of all she is going to engage in DFKing with you.

Some guys will even administer a "test kiss" at the front door, before paying the money. Some girls will give a demonstration kiss, before asking for the money. There have been some girls who don't even give you a choice. They just start kissing you and keep you pinned against a wall, or on the floor, or on the bed, and they don't stop until time is up and until you've also gotten as much sucking and fucking as you can take within 60 minutes. They have found that they make more money this way, as people write about them on Redbook. "Almost too GFE!"

I think this is the most important subject we could be talking about. Most of the other stuff talked about is, in my opinion, stupid.

If strip clubs are to be FS, then we should be talking about how to make it GFE FS, instead of 'extras' FS. I don't go along with the 'extras' approach to anything, and when it has been offered to me, like in SF, I always decline. Instead I've usually gone for talking to the girl some and then DATYing her. That gets to them, because it is not what they usually get and because they can feel that I really want to fuck them. It is just that I don't want to do it the way it is done in their club.

In some ways AMPs and AAMPs are like SCs, but there are still some big differences in how the sessions are done:
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…

How to get to Hong Kong Bar Quality, and the GFE is probably the biggest part of this:
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…

AAMPs are usually GFE, but AMPs are not. But they can be. I've been kissing pretty Asian massage girls since long before GFE was invented. Sometimes they only really loosen up during FS. Other times I've just backed them up against a wall and proceeded. A lot of it just depends on the chemistry, on how you talk to them, and on how the selection process was done. How you are dressed makes a big difference.

My time for today is up. Shadowcat talks about pricing.

If the girl really wants to be DFKing you, she is not going to charge extra. I say, anytime she is talking about kissing, but not kissing, then you should just shut her up by kissing her right then.

Kissing is not something you can negotiate about. Shouldn't talk about it, except for maybe over the telephone.

But I also say that GFE is ruined if you are treated like a chump. Then the girl will not respect you. Excessive pricing or freelancing bouncers needing to be greased means you GFE will probably be spoiled because those things make you a chump.

DIscussion of a very nice but still only quasi GFE AMP session.
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…

to be continued

SJG

Coffee of or Me, Total Nudity
www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPyZXsT5pWA
usually in San Jose's Coffee Shops it does not go this far. When it has, there have been repercussions

More Coffee Girls
www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4HnBb4TBDs

Erotic Service Provider Questionnaire
www.surveymonkey.com/s/sacred_intimates

Clapton and Crow
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OC6dhOOuyPU

Cliff notes?

It sounds like you paying too much for pussy. Why aft so much more damn expensive? Pop should come down w aft! I can get strippers here in Houston for 200 Otc and atf avg 133 Otc - she is 33yo x stripper.

Yeah, I agree, that's way too much spent, doesn't matter how good a piece of tail she is. 1 bill most ITC, 2 bills most OTC and I had better get AT LEAST a full hour with multiple shots.

I prefer the GFE, too. When it's more interactive, it just feels like a much better, more complete experience. When it's non-GFE, it's about as rewarding as whacking off to porn; sure it gets the job done, but it just doesn't feel like it.

Service w/ a smile is often a more pleasant experience.

@PantomGeek, That's a good way to put it. If the only thing I get to do is fuck her and squeeze her tits with no other foreplay I don't feel like I truly fucked her.

Been discussed ad nauseum before but I don't this is an outrageous price for a true and genuine GFE, including date and all with a woman you are totally into, especially if she's is exactly your type. I know some if you get an hour of sex for $150-300 an hour but that's just sex. A GFE takes her entire evening, sometimes more.

Usually GFE means an escort styled session, instead of just a quick and dirty type session like you might get with a street hooker. Usually GFE does not mean any outside date. The most important component of GFE is DFKing, because that is how civilians give it up. GFE means a civilian styled encounter. The girl submits, she does not try to control and orchestrate it.

Some had further defined Red Book GFE as being DFK + BBBJ + DATY + MSOG ( multiple shots on goal ). BBFS was never on the menu. Cum in mouth and anal would be going beyond Red Book GFE, but some did it. FIV is not listed by I would consider it included, and lately my AMP girls have shown a very great capacity for this. But some sex workers do rule it out.

So in a strip club of course it depends on how much time you have. But certainly if you want to kiss her she should comply.

But you can't expect someone to feel one way or another about you based on paying them. Likewise with your own emotions, you can feel how you want, and your own emotions are what you bring to the encounter.

My own position is that it all very much depends upon how you set it up with the girl in the first place.

JS69 says that it has to be in a bed. Well that is one of the issues on my Hong Kong Bar thread, how to get it that good here.
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…

They don't just have beds, they have big hot tubs and you might be able to stay with your girl for quite a while. Sounds like no one keeps regular hours in that place anyway.

And no I don't think this subject has been discussed anywhere near enough.

My view is that if you are letting the dancer "sell dances" then you are already operating in 'extras' mode instead of GFE mode with her. I see that as a chumps game.

So to keep it in GFE mode, you need to lead it. This means you pick her, she does not pick you. You talk to her, you court her, you turn on the charm. You feed her money as a show of respect as you are taking up her time at her job. But the money is not payment for anything specific.

I say that the further ypu can push it with her in the front room, the better. Front room money she does not have to cut with the house. Booths and back rooms offer privacy, but they are also toll gates.

If you have picked her and you really like her, then probably the you want to kiss her. So after turning on the charm some and letting her get relaxed a bit, the best thing to do is to just kiss her.

Try to let it escalate into a makeout session just like it would with a civilian. Then only when you feel that privacy is necessary to go further, you invite her to the VIP room and you pay her and the toll.

If you do it like that, it will be as GFE as possible. Almost always it will be mind blowing. And she is not going to charge you more than she usually would for that amount of time with FS included. Probably by the time you and she are done she is going to be wanting you to take her home with you.

Jestrite50, the Master himself, speaks
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…

I had read on Black Strip Clubs . Net of places where the girls just come up and sit down on you lap. They start nibbling on your ear and licking your neck. They are challenging you to start making out with them. Then after that you go with them to the VIP room. Sometimes it is one big collective VIP room. Sometimes it is just a dark corner. In this later case there probably is no toll.

Others have affirmed that it is also done like this in the mixed race FS dives.

And here again the Master, Jestrite50 speaks. They DFK and makeout in the front room or he never takes them into the back room:

"Not all girls but the ones that are serious about making money and the ones that will DFK and make out with you. This all happens in the front room. If they aren't playful like this in the front room then I will never take them to the back room ! "
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…

Let me quickly tell a story of my own from an AMP in Sunnyvale 20 years ago. I was known their and had done lots of their girls. There was one I hadn't and I got to thinking about her. So I went up there at lunch time. I entered and selected her and we went into the room. Normally the routine is, she tells you to undress and shower and then lie face down on the table.

I didn't do it that way, I said some soft words to her and closed on her and she at first pulled back, only to find the wall. Then I started kissing her. At first she did not relax. So I told her how much I liked her dark skin tone and how she does her eye makeup ( cay eye style ). That did it.

She just needed to know what I was trying to do and why. If I was kissing her because I liked her, and given that I seemed intent on following thru with what I was starting, then she was more than happy to comply. So I kissed her a second time and she let go completely. I could feel her knees turning to jelly and how she was melting.

Then she asked, "Do you want to do everything?" I answered verbally letting her know how nice it was going to be. She accepted the friend price of $100.

She had to leave to get the other things we needed. She came back and quickly dropped her long skirt and her top. It would have been better if she let me undress her, but all in all it was fine.

Because she had yielded to me in that way, being kissed up against the wall, what ensued was heavenly. It was mind blowing. It was just all spontaneous and she just went with it, and I kissed her as much as I wanted and took my time letting her get off in different positions, and starting out with her on top.

We used the massage table, but other times I've done such sessions which went that way, and we would just put the massage table's sheet onto the carpeted floor.

My point is, the best way to initiate is to get her relaxed and softened up, and then just to start kissing her. Talking about kissing is for situations when all you intend to do is talk. But if you actually want to kiss her, then just kiss her.

@footballguy, you are 100% correct, without kissing and letting the parties develop feelings, the it is just about ejaculation. It is like Mr. LDK and his dry humping 'till completion to get the endorphine rush.

Time up for me. To be continued.

Strip clubs can be better, if we learn how to make them better.

SJG

Jeff Healy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5Qb-6Qk…

Here's a synopsis of SJG's post

Kiss yada yada yada yada

Girlfriend yada yada yada yada yada

Love yada yada motorhome yada yada yada

Purple dress yada yada yada yada

That's just a summary of the first two paragraphs. I lost consciousness before I could read any more.

John, I've had a couple of excellent GFE times that were just an hour or so long and $300. It's enough time for me.

PG, I get that. While I really value the "date" beforehand cause it's a kind of foreplay for me, the sex is obviously what's most important. I think the central key to a GFE is that she is just as into the sex as you are. For example, when you kiss her passionately during sex, she is doing at least in part cause she just had a couple orgasms, she's on the verge of having another, and she's as horny as you. And when she sucks your dick, she's doing in part cause she's grateful for the long periodcyou just spent between her legs learning ways to please her. She is getting as much from the sex as you are, and therefore her motivations for pleasuring you are in response to her pleasure as much as they are in response to the money you are paying her.

Last time with the DS, she initiated the sex session for no extra money. I had already played with her at the club and was leaving town the next day. She says can you stay for a date the next afternoon. She had her period the last time I was in town and didn't get any orgasms.

So we are in bed. 30-40 min into it, she has already had lots of orgasms (I counted 8, she later said she lost count). I have engaged with her anatomy in a way that I never have with any woman ever. We kiss deeply, and I ask her what can I do to give you just one more. I want her to have one more orgasm. She says I want to feel you inside me. So I fuck her. Somehow the little head lasts a few min despite the glorious young body he is thrusting into. I will never forget the view. Just before he looses it, she cums again, then I cum, and cum, and cum some more. Can't remember the last time it lasted so long. And neither one of us was high. We lay in bed together for a while, truly exhausted while we talk and massage one another. This is what I have come to view as a GFE.

I'm not saying that my money is not important to her. It is very important. And I'm not saying that we are in love or any stupid SJG bullshit like that. It's not like that. When we part, it's over until I want sex again. All Im saying is that the sex is real, passionate, intense, and mutually satisfying. In other words the sex is exactly what I want it to be.

That's the key to a GFE to me. the DS is the only one to ever give this to me like this. I've had sex with strippers where we did all the girlfriend stuff, those girls had an orgasm (or at least they faked it well), at the time I thought they were giving me a great GFE, and I was very satisfied with the experience. But it wasn't wfat I now think if a GFE as being.

And I'm willing to pay her a lot more than $300 for this cause it is so worth it.

John, I've never had that long and that intimate of a sexual relationship with a woman, real, financed, and/or imagined, so I really can't recognize, let alone appreciate, those nuances that become apparent in a longer-term relationship such as yours. Nope, mine are typically about 60 minutes in length, 90 if I've forked over a few more bucks.

For me, in practical terms, true GFE means that, within some time limit (hour, half hour), she will do kissing, other foreplay, oral, FS. The other extreme is DCE (Discovery Channel Experience), she will try to make you splooge as quickly as possible. Many P4P girls fall somewhere between these two extremes.

As I know the most essential component is kissing, and it should be full DKF, no compromises or holding back. Once she starts doing that, she isn't going to be refusing much else.

Outside dates are a completely different issue.

If she will go for DFK, then she is letting you seduce her and fuck her, and so at the end she will be eating out of your hand and wanting you to take her home with you. It just works that way.

Usually people want 1 hour minimum. But in an SC you could start kissing her and start the foreplay in the front room. This way is better. And at the most extreme clubs, as written about on Black Strip Clubs . Net and affirmed to apply to mixed race clubs by TUSCL members, the girls try to make it go this way themselves.

Sometimes in AMPs the girl will evade DFK until it is in the middle of FS and she is really getting into it. Then she will open up and really get into DFK too.

But in a real GFE session, and understanding that this is always in a P4P context, she should just let you seduce her by repeatedly DFKing her.

In Red Book AAMPs, the girls were well coached and so this is how they did it. They also did DATY, BBBJ, and MSOG as well, because they were coached and reviewed.

In SC's the girls will not have been coached. No owner would ever want to take that chance.

SJG

Every time I have an OTC date it is a GFE. I won't have it any other way. I interview these girls before our first date and see what they feel comfortable doing to me and what they feel comfortable with me doing to them.
I don't pay for sex after the first time. (The first time is just so they can see what I want; how they perform; and to let them know what the potential for money is) I gave a girl a $100 tip on a first date one time because she swallowed every bit of my cum and then cleaned me up with her tongue slurping down every last drop. We still have a GFE going but now I don't pay her a dime for sex. She's into it I'm into it we have a blast and usually do an all nighter. I help her with car payments and repairs. Whatever she needs and wants I provide. Lots of DFK, Make out sessions, DATY a great all night fuckfests. GFE I wouldn't want it any other way !

@jestrite50: "I help her with car payments and repairs. Whatever she needs and wants I provide."

Would you provide this help and meet these needs and wants if she was *not* fucking you? If the answer to that question is "no," then you're paying for sex, irrespective of how you describe it.

GMD +1

GMD and Shadow, Reading Jestrite50, what I would say is that he is paying because he is involved with them. Most women don't really support themselves via wages. They expect their intimate partner to do much of it. Jestrite pays directly for sex the first time, just to show good intent. But after that he is more like a sponsor. He has explained that he wants them to get longer term non-stripping non-hoeing jobs, and that his continued support is contingent upon this. They have to be transitioning to long term financial sufficiency. They have to learn regular work habits, not the kinds of stuff gotten away with in strip clubs.

I mean if you have got the money, long term income, and knowing that men are better at dealing with financial uncertainty anyway, then you can't really be expecting her to be fucking you and not be either sharing it or paying her by the hour.

In colleges it is different because most of the women are being supported by their parents. But outside of college it is different. If they aren't selling sex, then they still expect anyone involved with them to be somehow helping them to pay bills. This is just how it is. Conservative girls look at it is preliminary marriage. Girls not conservative look at it as the guys has to pay.

Jestrite50, The Master, +20.


On another note, the way people are using the term 'GFE'. The way it used to be was Escorts kissed, but Street Hookers and AMP girls usually did not.

Then came cell phones and the Internet, and then the RedBook, and then a trans Pacific supply line, particularly from Taiwan. All of a sudden girls were coming here on 6 month tourist visas, having been coached on how to get through customs. They would be put up in apartments and ads would go up and they would be coached in what to do, as well as driven to the bank regularly.

In the ads it would say, 'GFE". What this meant first and foremost is kissing, real kissing, DFK. It meant that Asian massage girls were now going to compete with domestic escorts. In fact since they usually spoke very little English, they ended up making up for it with even more kissing.

So the ads said, 'GFE', and then later RB-GFE = ( DFK, DATY, BBBJ, and MSOG ). The Taiwan girls were the best!

But the ads also said, 'incalls only'.

Now the term GFE gets used everywhere now. Domestic escorts use it. Mexican escorts, like on escortsofmexico, use it. And they use it on the profile pages for the Mustang Ranch. It means just an incalls session with a great deal of unrestricted kissing. It means she is going to be like a civilian and let you seduce her by kissing her.

I've read lots of RB reviews, and I made some too. On RB, no one ever got busted because of reviews because they used a two call appointment system. It kept LE out.

With the best of the GFE providers, besides letting you kiss them and get them hot and wet, they also expected you to undress them yourself. People loved this and posted about it.

What some of you guys are talking about, the outside preliminary dates, goes way beyond what is included in GFE. I'm sure it is great. It does make it go better and easier for both parties, no doubt. But that is more like Sugar Dating or having a mistress or a paramour. It is above and beyond the meaning of GFE.

GFE means that it will be like an escort session instead of the basic street hooker or AMP session, as there will be a great deal of kissing. She will not just service you, she will let you act upon her and then have your way with her.

Now as a note, I've been kissing and seducing pretty AMP girls since long before GFE was ever invented. The whole shop would still be talking about it a month later when I cam back in and they'd be jumping in front of each other to try and get a turn. But I did it by flirting with them and by coming on to them, not because that was the standard way they did it.

AMP Advice
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…

New England and how to interpret AMP reviews
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…

SJG

Wes Montgomery
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU3OwXyL…

@SJG: Bullshit.

@GMD, What don't you like about it?

Yes, in many situations women do P4P sex. But the money only goes so far. Mostly as I see it, the money pays for her having to be there and take on strangers. If I was being expected to do that, I'd charge a lot more than the women do.

But the money is not paying for her to do anything she is necessarily averse to. In a different situation and approached a bit differently, I believe she'd go home with you, and for free.

Clearly there are two schools of thought here on TUSCL. I think the other school wants to believe that it is all money and money alone as that gives them emotional protection.

SJG

@SJG: For future reference, I seldom read past your first paragraph. You may safely assume, absent guidance otherwise from me, that the object of my dismissive expostulation lies therein.

"dismissive expostulation" ?

GMD, you wrote, "Would you provide this help and meet these needs and wants if she was *not* fucking you? If the answer to that question is "no," then you're paying for sex, irrespective of how you describe it. "

It sounds like Jestrite50 has lots of girlfriends in different places and he does help subsidize them, but it stops short of literally paying for sex. They like him and they like having sex with him. And he likes them and he likes giving them money.

My own view is that women like sex at least as much as men do. They just want to be treated right. So "paying for sex" really means just paying for her to be there and available when you want her.

My god, if was being asked to sit around looking pretty until someone selected me, I'd charge 10 times what these women do.

But that gets to the point. I am not female and so I would not do what they do. But even for them, that is not the only thing they can do. If you are expecting them to sit around waiting all dolled up and being ready, then they expect to get paid.

But this does not mean that this is the only way you can relate to them, especially after that first session. Jestrite50 is the one who has mastered the art of building relationships with them. And the more he does it, the easier he makes it for the rest of us to follow him.

SJG

@PhantomGeek,

You wrote, "... I've had a couple of excellent GFE times that were just an hour or so long and $300."

You've got me curious and I think some of this gets to issues the OP is trying to raise. Were these sessions held in the VIP Room of a strip club?

Did the girl advertise it as 'GFE'. Did she offer a non-GFE alternative at a lower price? I would think this unusual.

Did she do something in the front room to let you know that it was to be GFE, like engaging in DFKing?

I remember a long time ago you posted about one who was DFKing you from the stage, and about how nice the VIP time with her was. Is this what you are referring to?

Reliable GFE in a SC would be great. We need to explore how to make this happen easier and more often. And again, I am seeing the TJ Hong Kong Bar as the standard we should be aspiring to.

SJG