Kyle, I agree with your last point. I think its absolutely ludicrous that a company CEO can embezzle millions of dollars from a pension fund and destroy thousands of lives in the process and get 6 months in a low security prison, while someone from a lower class gets 5 years in a really tough prison for stealing a couple hundred dollars from a 7-11. The message that sends is to tell the while collar criminals that crime pays, while the message to the lower class guy is to send him somewhere where he learns how to be a professional thief and not get caught next time.
Hi Fondl,
That is an excellent point. Usually I think of selective enforcement negatively. A young black male being judged far more harshly usually than a young white male.
There is/was a huge discrepancy between drug sentences faced by whites compared to blacks. Let's say a white would get 1 year while the black would get 10 years. Is this discrimination a good deal for the black community? If you're an anti-drug zealot, then fewer dealers and users should be seen a positive for the community. Thus, the white community is being short changed when fellow whites get a mere slap on the wrist. And, the black community is getting a huge benefit by having these "undesirables" removed from their community.
Now, if you view the drug laws as basically just another government scam and recognize the government does more harm than good in this "war". . . Well, in that case the black community is being screwed yet again.
I'm too chicken shit to use illegal drugs. Yes, there was a time I could have used and sold them with little fear, and perhaps white police officers *might still* look the other way. But, times have changed and I no longer consider the white police officers to be automatically looking out for my welfare. Some of these officers have been seriously brainwashed by the governments' propaganda.
BTW, I favor much more lenient sentences for "real" criminals as well. You know car thiefs, bank robbers, forgers, burgulars, con artists, domestic abusers, etc. Definitely not a popular view. :)
It's obvious to me that drinking is a learned behavior. I'd much rather be in a car driven by a guy who drinks every day and has a .12 percent blood alcohol level than a person who rarely drinks with .10. That's the problem with government regulations, they oversimplify and assume that one size fits all. Some drivers are safe with a belly full of booze while others are unsafe after one or two drinks. We should be measuring behavior, not blood alcohol levels. Fortunately most cops realize that and so, as is often the case, selective enforcement makes up for bad law.
My mother was a heavy drinker. Friends would comment on how much I would drink, but good old mom probably drank 4 or 5 times as much alcohol. She loved vodka also, as well as a little wine. She drove "drunk" probably 90 percent of the time. I can't remember her not drinking except for a short period of her life.
What is interesting is how many accidents and tickets she received. Zero tickets. Zero accidents. She was an extremely hard woman, but I'd have no problem letting her do the driving no matter how much she guzzled the booze. As I said before it may make sense for society to be intolerant if generally people can't drink and drive safely.
Some years back a judge dismissed a case where the prosecutor refused to release a videotape of the "drunk." The problem was that the "drunk" didn't appear to impaired on the video so the jurors might get the wrong idea. Namely, drinking and driving are acceptable if you're not impaired.
My mother was heavy drinker. Friends would comment on how much I would drink, but good old mom probably drank 4 or 5 times as much alcohol. She loved vodka also, as well as a little wine. She drove "drunk" probably 90 percent of the time. I can't remember her not drinking except for a short period of her life.
What is interesting is how many accidents and tickets she received. Zero tickets. Zero accidents. She was an extremely hard woman (as was her family), but I'd have no problem letting her do the driving no matter how much she guzzled the booze. As I said before it may make sense for society to be intolerant if generally people can't drink and drive safely.
Some years back a judge dismissed a case where the prosecutor refused to release a videotape of the "drunk." The problem was that the "drunk" didn't appear to impaired on the video so the jurors might get the wrong idea. Namely, drinking and driving are acceptable if you're not impaired.
I applaud the crackdown on drinking and driving. The only problem is that, like almost everything else, when government gets involved they go way too far. There's no juctification for lowering the standard from 0.11 to 0.08, yet the feds have forced states to do so. That means if you share a bottle of wine over dinner you're over the limit. These aren't the people causing the problem, it's the drunks out there.
And if you're going to crack down on drinking, shouldn't you crack down just as hard on other unsafe behaviors? For example, alcohol is involved in maybe half of all fatal accidents. But driving at excessive speed is involved in almost all of them. Yet we treat speeders, who are much more dangerous to all of us, with far more leniency than we do drinkers. And I'm opposed to that. Just one more example of how stuff like this should be left to state and local governments and not the federal government.
When I was young and driving it'd be a rare day when I wasn't filled with vodka. Unfortunately, I developed an intolerance of sorts to drinking so I'm pretty much stuck with water or occasionally a beer. I remember being pulled over for a busted tail light. The officer said smelled alcohol and wanted to know how much I had to drink. I said officer was there anything wrong with my driving? He says NO. I say well according to the law I'm way over the limit, but you should concerned about whether I'm driving safely. He says he wants me to say the alphabet backwards. I said I never finished school and I'd be lucky to say it forwards! He says ok say it forwards. I say it forwards and then do the test for walking a straight line. A police van pulls up filled drunks? Anyway, the officer waves them away. He wants to know what I'm doing in a black area. I say this was once a white area and I'm from Angels. His eyes get real wide for a second and says that club is going down . . . I laugh and say that's a good reason for drinking. He says times are changing and not all officers will give me a free pass. I say yeah, but I'm too stupid to leave so I guess I deserve whatever I get. There was some emergency and he had to take off with his sirens and lights flashing. I went back to Angels to do some more drinking.
There is something wrong with drinking and driving? I guess if a good number of people can't safely drink and drive, then unfortunately it may make sense for society to be somewhat intolerant.
Davids, not to b e rude but if it fits....SC mqay not mind driving intoxicated and you might dislike proper english? Does it really matter? Thank God we are all different and if more people would judge themselves as much as the do others, what a wonderful world it could be! ( Hey, I think there might be a song there!)
Davids, I have never owned or worked in a strip club or related activity. I spent most of my life in corporate America and travelled extensively in that capacity. And like somebody else said, I discovered that, depending on where you are, strip dlubs often are the best entertainmant option available. They're usually much friendlier places than most bars.
Davids: Interesting to know. My initial assessment of DV was high scam factor due to prices and services being mostly set. But, I didn't experience much of it myself. My guess is being younger they just assumed I didn't have money and left me alone. Going back last night was really weird, and will certainly be my last for a long, long, time though.
For me its not any certain look. I just know what I like when I see it. No certain age group because Ive known women at 41 that make lots of the strippers I know look sick. Sad but true. Most strippers arent exceptionally beautiful, their naked. Thats what attracts us. You probably wouldnt even notice lots of these girls if you saw them in clothes on the street. So Id have to say my idea stripper would be one who knows how to talk to a man,(cause every womans got a slit), doesnt boo hoo over there bills to me(hey I got bills too),and a girl who enjoys what shes doing. It shows if they really hate it. I'm there for fantasy,not to get a girlfriend, or take on a whole housefull of some other mans kids.
Actually I only got scammed once for a small amount of money once and I got even for that one. Lots of girls tried scamming though: that was the sickening part. Got stolen from once, lied to innumerable times.
Yoda: I'm not sure what 50% statistic you are alluding to. If it is that 50% of the population is of below average intelligence that is true by the central limit theorem.
johnny: Actually I met my fair share of scammers at DJ. Interestingly thing, though, all but one got their start at Rick's/Honeys/Sugars. Wonder what those girls talk about in the dressing room/after hours?
JL: You are right about the pressure thing: I knew one girl who started off very nice there, and towards the end it was sad to see her start to spiral downward toward the end. On the other hand, I saw girls go the other way: slowly building up the self-confidence and ambition to leave that world. That was a good thing to see.
One particularly curious girl at Rick's is Erin. She is completely above the sleaze (and talking to her customers for that matter), but able to make good money every night based on her exceptional looks. Think she's worked there for a couple of years too. That takes alot of strength to work in that environment and not let it change your character. (Or maybe she has BF that she feels she needs to be loyal and that's the reason: who can know?)
i understand why some men feel like they do about strippers,but let me assure you,not ALL of us are bad..i,m 34(looking 24)i dont drink,smoke or do drugs..and i work out 6 days a week.i,m an entertainer.i like what i [view link] a dancer,i will tell you nothing is more sad in my eyes then a dancer who ruins her chance for a better life by being in a club drunk or worse,not saving her money,and generally just living a life that is unfocused and full of drama.its an eyesore to those of us who are the total opposite.when i,m working,i want to be the fantasy for every person i see,or,at least,entertain those who watch me...i,m dedicated to what i do..its too bad there are so many who lack the care and love for their chosen craft.later
davids it sounds like you went to some of the worst possible strip clubs for a whole year. You probably met alot of bad strippers there too apparently. I just hope those clubs you frequented are just the worst of the worst strip clubs on the west coast area because that is far from my strip club experience. In fact many of the dancers I seem to meet nowadays seem to tell me they are only stripping part time and hold other jobs. You must have been scammed alot going to those clubs I bet. I understand your attitude a bit better now.
Thanks for finally posting your story, davids. After spending more time at Rick's and Honey's lately, I find myself agreeing with more of what you say. Perhaps if others fully understood the Seattle SC situation, they'd be a little more understanding.
The Seattle Deja Vu's are probably typical to other clubs in the country - there are handful of hustlers and druggies, but the majority are relatively clean, ordinary girls either making money on the side or find it's a decent career option. The downside is management closely watches things, so there's a limit to what they can make. Which brings us to....
Rick's and its associated clubs, which are a whole different story. Are there any other clubs where dancers are paying $100+ a night to work? Lately I've been spying on the average looking girls who give clean dances. Believe me, they're not going home with much and the pressure to scam, cheat, and steal must be pretty high. I'm actually surprised it's not more common, which is why I can't buy in to numbers that 90% are bad, or whatever.
One thing though - I haven't seen any direct evidence tying the Rick's owner to organized crime. They've just been busted a few times for cheating on taxes and looking the other way towards stuff that's happening in the club (which is the standard for SC owners). I haven't been able to find any documented ties to drugs, violence, intimidation, etc. The closest thing we seem to have to "organized crime" up here is some 19 year olds in a gang selling meth.
Davids: Are you able to carry on an argument with someone you don't agree with without questioning their "credibilty". What we are dealing with here are differeing opinions about a topic from two different people. I have no reason tie lie about my experiences. Do you?
I don't know what your 50% statistic is based on. Where did you read that? My estimation of the percentage of dancers I have met who where not stupid or blatanlty crooked is based on my experiences and the women that I am attracted to when I go to a SC, not on any published statistic. I never said it was.
I sometimes go once or twice a week, I sometimes don't go for a month or more. It all depends on how busy I am and where I am working. I travel a lot for work and some towns are definitely better than others for SC's. I would much rather hang out in a room full of beautiful women who are not trying to hit on me than hang out in a regular bar full of gold-diggers or a sports bar full of BBC Yahoos.
I do not have any affiliation with a strip club though I have spent a large portion of my life working in the entertainment business-which often means I am working in Night clubs and, occasionally, in a strip club.
This stuff should all be clear from my reviews:
Went to SCs pretty regularly for a year. I would say I met between 200-300 dancers during that time. Most of the girls I got to know were from Rick's/Sugars/Honeys/Fox's chain or got started there. This "chain" is owned and run by local organized crime. I've also visited SCs in Vegas and Reno. I didn't really try to get to the know the girls that well (except my ATF mentioned in the "ideal" thread) until *they* started hinting at OTC stuff, and engaged in other forms of lying, stealing, and scamming. Then I got pissed off at them and wanted to know what kind of girls strippers really were, so started asking more question to them and doing research here and on SW. Not impressed by what I learned as you may have gathered from my other posts.
Don't know how you two could continue going for 20-40 years that is just amazing. How many average visits a week are we talking.
Oh, I also have strong evidence that Yoda is a fantasist: He says that 80% of strippers are intelligent and honest. But if you look at the general population 50% are of below average intelligence. Hence Yoda must think it is much more likely for intelligent girls to choose that line of work than less intelligent ones. Does anyone seriously beleive that? Does Yoda have any credibility left?
Yoda and FONDL: are of either of you two part owenrs in any strip clubs?
Dragman. Great post and very true. FONDL: Good point. I've been going to clubs for over 20 years and have also formed lasting friendships with a dancer or two. Davids, whats your story?
Davids, just out of curiuosity, what is your level of experience with strippers? I've been going to strip clubs for about 40 years and have probably spent time with several hundred dancers and have gotten to know a couple dozen of them really well, and have become close friends with several. My best friend is a girl I met when she was dancing many years ago. I'm assuming that you also have extensive experinece with dancers, given your posts. Please enlighten the rest of us so we can determine whether you know what you are talking about or are just blowing smoke out your ass.
I would like to put my two cents in...I worked as a shift manager and GM of severaql Adult Entertainment clubs. I discovered that the independent contractors that without a doubt, make the entire industry what is is. True, that can be good or bad, sophisticated or slutty, and that varies dependent on the chemistry of the ladies as a group.
A few rotten apples can spoil the entire bushel. I found that there where "strippers", "dancers", and "entertainers" in every club. It depends on the leadership abilities of the Entertainers and manaqgement to operate a first class esthablishment.
So my idea of the ideal entertainer is someone who takes pride in her job and recieves pleasure and financial gain from it. People are people, no matter what they do for a living and these ladies deserve the same individualism as the rest of us.
Hell, it's about T&A, plus fantasy and entertainment. We aren't electing the next President here!
Enjoy the fantasy of the Dance!
(Am I full of some bullshit or what! but it is true in my opinion!
I would like to put my two cents in...I worked as a shift manager and GM of severaql Adult Entertainment clubs. I discovered that the independent contractors that without a doubt, make the entire industry what is is. True, that can be good or bad, sophisticated or slutty, and that varies dependent on the chemistry of the ladies as a group.
A few rotten apples can spoil the entire bushel. I found that there where "strippers", "dancers", and "entertainers" in every club. It depends on the leadership abilities of the Entertainers and manaqgement to operate a first class esthablishment.
So my idea of the ideal entertainer is someone who takes pride in her job and recieves pleasure and financial gain from it. People are people, no matter what they do for a living and these ladies deserve the same individualism as the rest of us.
Hell, it's about T&A, plus fantasy and entertainment. We aren't electing the next President here!
Enjoy the fantasy of the Dance!
(Am I full of some bullshit or what! but it is true in my opinion!
Davids: Averages? So you have some published statistics to back this up? Seems that FONDL, myself and you all have different ideas of what these averages are. The fact is that "averages", in this case, must lie in the eyes of the beholder since there are no statistics on such things. I don't know where you live Davids but maybe there is something in the water that makes almost every dancer you know a bad person. It's simply not the case in the rest of the civilized world. Not most of the time. Not even half the time.
I disagree with the two of you FONDL, and Yoda. An intelligent and honest stripper is truly an exceptional thing. For the most part those type of girls avoid the business in the first place or bail on it within their first three weeks. Now there are exceptions, as I say, but for the most part your typical stripper is not very bright, is poorly educated, is extremely dishonest, is obsessed with money, is contemptuous of herself, her customers and the world in general, probably has a gambling, alcohol, or drug addiction, and is a single mother who dislikes men in general. Now there are exceptions, but so what, I am talking about averages here.
Davids, I have to agree with Yoda here. I've found most dancers to be pretty nice people and generally honest. In fact I've been surprised at how moral most dancers are because until I got to know some of them fairly well I assumed the opposite. Not only that, but in my experience the number of moral, honest and nice dancers are growing and the scam artists are in decline. There are high-pressure clubs where you will find a lot of scam artists but I avoid such places. I also think that the average intelligence level of dancers has gone way up over the past 10 years or so.
Actualy Davids, I have no counter argument. I think that, for all the reasons you stated, The girl you are talking about was very nice. The basic difference between you and I is that you think a girl like that makes up about 2% of the dancers in the world, I happen to think it's about 80%. Your ideal dancer sounds like a great girl, but she also sounds like most of the dancers I have met over the years. I don't know if intelligent people are more honest or not but I do avoid stupid, obnoxious people-including dancers who fit that mold, like the plague.
Yoda: well she was very intelligent which I gathered from talking to her for two hours about things like science and history. In fact she was easily the smartest stripper I ever talked to. Then I did a couple of LDs with her, but she had just one rule: no touching. *l* Spent like $40 in total on her. (Normally I would spend less if the dances were no good, but felt she deserved to be compensated for her time.) 2nd time I saw her I told her it was just to say "bye" and not get dances but we chatted for an hour anyway. No exchange of money. So she was clearly not trying to hustle me for money. I mean $40 in 3 hours? Things she told me about strippers also turned out to be true before I relized them on my own, so I'm sure this one was honest.
Also I've noticed that intelligent people tend to be more honest than less intelligent people, so that's another reason I'm pretty sure this was an honest girl. A couple of reasons for this: 1) intelligent people can get by quite well on their own thank you, without having to take moral short cuts like lying, stealing, and scamming; 2) I beleive that part of having a sense of morals creates a deserve in people to become smart and educated, whereas a lack of morals pretty much rids one of that.
Now I know what your lame counter argument is going to be so I will state it for you to save you having to respond: "actually I knew this one highly intelligent person who was a sociopath therefore you are wrong." Whatever, I'm talking about strong tendencies here not absolutes.
Davids: I don't mean to piss in your cereal bowl here but how do you really know anything about a woman you met only twice at a strip club? You are always telling us that dancers lie and scam. How can you be shure that this lady was any different?
I like long hair, usually blond, 5'4 to 5'8, medium large natural breasts, 36 to 38c cup, curvey yet fit, about 120 to 140 pounds (real weight) Not totally shaved, I like a little muff. Long legs, shapely calves. Nice skin is a must. Big smile, good teeth. Dimples are a big turn on for me. Warm personality, not too jaded, yet intelligent. Eye contact! And doesn't act like she hates her job...
For me, I'd say for the perfect stripper has to have at least b cup tits(I prefer natural, but have no aversion to fakes, as long as they're done nicely), have an ass that is very fit and firm (the size can be from a small butt all the way to J-Lo's), abs muscled and tighter than a barrel, nice long hair, and a personality and mind that doesn't mind talking to the customer, or having fun dancing (after all, we're there to get lap dances, even if she is very interesting and is intelligent.)
While she is doing her lap dancing, she doesn't mind if you're sucking on her tits, feeling the butt, and kissing everything but the no fly zone regions in the front and back of her body. Some dancers at certain clubs just want you to sit there while they're grinding on your cock, and they wonder why they're not making any money like the dancers at clubs in places like Florida or Texas, for example.
Would also prefer that she's been in the business at least 2 years or more, because the dancers that have worked that long usually know how to give the nastier dances I like (the legal ones, not the extras). If she does extras (if I'm in the mood for them, which I'm usually not), she does it in a way discreetly that doesn't get her in trouble, or causes an incident for either of us.
She was very intelligent, pretty, honest, and kind. She had no concern with making money by doing what strippers do. She was only working for a month because she had lost a bet.
My ideal stripper had no interest in being a stripper, and had a general contempt for the "industry" yet she was not a contradiction. I only saw her twice. Geographical circumstances prevented more.
Kind of funny, but true. :-)
My ideal dancer has no set body type though I do prefer South American women. Personality is secondary to looks. I'd much rather spend time and money on a woman who can carry on a conversation and has the self confidence to know she is sexy even if there are a few perfect tens in her midst. Davids, tell us what your ideal stripper would be like.
My ideal stripper was an actual dancer. Her stage name was Jules and she danced at the 24K Club in Atlanta. Her real name was Julie and she was the same age as me. She was average hight. strong facial features. great eyes, dark hair. great body, large, almost perfect, natural boobs with picture perfect nipples, great ass, and a fantastic personality. miss her to this day. wish she hadn't retired
She'd be just like my ATF or my current favorite. Young. Not too tall. Slender. Cute or beautiful, either works for me. Intelligent. Entertaining, a lot of fun to be with. Has a great sense of humor. Honest about the important stuff. Serious about her future. Works out regularly and takes good care of herself. A giver, not a taker. Interesting, there's a lot of substance there. Unconventional. A strong sense of self-worth. Poised and mature beyond her years. Courteous. Interested in getting to know me better. Interested in people generally. A bit of vunlerability deep within. Surprisingly moral. Caring. A really nice person.
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