Yesterday afternoon I experienced another first for me. A dancer offered OTC. No that was not the first time that has happened but what was a first was that the fact that she offered to cook me breakfast in the morning at her place. She went so far as to ask if I liked turkey bacon or pork and how I liked my eggs cooked. I can't even remember getting that kind of an offer from a civilian girl back in my dating days. She was a sista. Does that make a difference? I had to pass. I am not that kind of guy. LOL.
Slick - She was a black chick. She also offered me her digits and I told her that I do no accept phone numbers. I dunno why I said that. I usually just take them and then throw them away.
She also told me that the girls talk about me in the dressing room and asked if I knew the girls did that. I said "Yes. I am aware of that. What are they saying about me?" She said that they say that I am not an easy sell. She told me that she was older than she looked and asked me to guess her age. So I guessed 50. That would have pissed off a few but she just smiled and said that she was 29 and she looked 29.
This went on for 20 minutes with her never asking if I wanted a dance. I figured that I owed her a couple for entertaining me for so long and got 2 smoking hot dances. If you even want to call them dances. It was more like 7 minutes of mutual groping. I did have to pass on the OTC offer. Just two many flags. I'll certainly buy more dances the next time I see her.
“… I did have to pass on the OTC offer. Just two many flags …â€
The more one SCs; the more one develops a gut-feeling/6th-sense w.r.t. dancers – many of these dancers will come across “normal†in the club but be problematic OTC.
What lengths will women go to these days just to cuddle. Tell her to bring out one the 8s in the back to make the same offer. On second thought hot chicks usually can't cook so you may just talk her into making a mcdonalds run in the morning instead.
If I am understanding all of this correctly, I think it would have been fine. Black women are way ahead of the rest of us in their verbal skills. Conversation with them is always going to be interesting. But I have also found that it is easier to get wires crossed with black strippers than with others. That may have been what happened here.
If she was really going to cook you breakfast, then she would be auditioning to be your civilian girlfriend. You should not accept that unless you are really open to that possibility. To lead her on would be wrong.
You have told us how much you usually pay, for ITC. So I don't know what was on the table with this girl, ITC, OTC, or an overnighter at her place. If it was just ITC, then I think she is just playing with your some. She is acting like she already knows you, based on dressing room gossip.
Black girls offer real names and phone numbers. I don't take the names seriously. The phone numbers maybe. There is some meaning to it. I think just talking with her, getting to know her, and then deciding would be best. ITC or OTC may have been just fine.
I think more about this. When she says that you are a "tough sell", what she means is that even though this group of dancers is accepting your money and servicing you, they still have their own angle on it. Sure, they talk like money is the only language they understand. This allows them to take off their clothes and show their stuff, but still maintain the upper hand in their dealings. But you stand alone as the only one who has been able to resist their attempts to get to you.
They don’t need your money. At this point, they don’t even want your money, because it has become a matter of honor. So when she says that they are talking about you, what she means is that as you have left them no other alternative, they have assembled a posse. They are now sharing information and working together to break through your defenses and civilianize you.
Usually when a guy is maintaining a firewall around his personal life, he is doing this because he is married. Of course the girls pick up on this in the first 30 seconds. Because you indulge so heavily in OTC, I assumed incorrectly that you must be married. That you are not, but that you still keep the dancers out of your personal life and keep it strictly P4P, is unusual in my view. They obviously consider you to be a unique case, and now they have organized in order to break you.
I have mentioned briefly about my own experiences with AMPs and AAMPs. AMPs are storefront Asian Massage Parlors. These used to be more common in my area, and they used to have more better looking girls, like young Vietnamese. I would say about 25% of the customers would do FS, and the rest HJ. But the service was not usually GFE, or anything even close to it. The advantages of AMPs though, were that you could window shop and you could learn to gain some real points with the girl by letting her see that you are picking her over and above the others. Often I did get phenomenal GFE service, but it was because the girl was auditioning to be my civilian girlfriend, and so she just surrendered to my advances and gave her unreserved consent. There was no need for any verbal negotiation, as it had become a civilian date. After some preliminaries and making out I would just take the bed sheet and the pillow off of the narrow massage table and spread the sheet out on the floor. Usually they had a chair which was supposed to be for dressing. These came in handy too. Sometimes when it went this way she would not even ask for money, though I would always still give them the customary amount at the end as a show of respect. No amount of money though would ever have been able to compensate her for the way she had fully offered herself to me for a full 60min.
AAMPs, Apartment Asian Massage Parlors came later, with cell phones, with the Red Book and its exacting terminology and its reviews of each individual service provider, and with LE having gotten tougher on the storefront AMPs. With AAMPs the women were often not as good looking and there is not supposed to be any window shopping. Often the women speak little or no English and they are here on a tourist visa. They are not auditioning to be anyone’s girlfriend. But the default service that they give to most people ( RB-GFE = DFK + DATY + BBBJ + MSOG ) is much higher, and usually it goes very well. I still miss the storefront AMP places though, because the sessions were often more personal and the communications were better, and because the women were actually residing in the US and so they had interests that went beyond money and that type of a job.
The women in all of these places and in strip clubs would not be there if they did not get paid. But on the other hand, getting paid is not what they want most out of life.
So I have to pose the question, what is it that you want? If you have money, you can keep doing P4P every single day, and there will always be dancers to take care of you. But is that what you really want? They are giving you’re their very best, and this is not because you are paying them, it is because they really like you and they care about you.
I figure that most of these clubs hire around 2 new girls per week. We know how many clubs there are in your area. You have also mentioned two cities in an adjacent state. With even just a handful of clubs, they will be hiring girls faster than any one man could ever keep up. So since you will never be able to do all of them, to what ends does this go?
I think that you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. At my age I'm just trying to have as much fun as I can, while I still can. That includes P4P with strippers 3 or 4 times younger than me without breaking the bank or getting too involved with them.
So this dancer is 29yo, dancing for a while. You have a P4P-OTC-FAV. Probably she has been dancing for a while too. So they each know lots of dancers. Probably the 29yo has heard about your OTC at your home. So she is teasing you by talking about breakfast.
As I know, girls start dancing and they are offended by the P4P-OTC offers. What they would like are civilian date offers, from guys who treat them nicely. Then they find out that these later are very rare in a strip club. So eventually they decide, "Well, if the guy wants p4p, better to just play along with him." They realize that if they try to renegotiate a p4p offer into a civilian date, saving the guy some money, they will scare him off! He wants to pay!
So then what is the money for? It is hush money. Most of these guys are married. Or even worse, they look down on the dancer, seeing her as being of a lower social class and hence not datable or marriageable.
Eventually dancers get so bored that they accept OTC. In the movie Incredible Lightness of Being we see a local girl at a resort town, working as a barmaid, and fending off prostitution offers continuously. She even goes so far as to play dumb and go with one guy to the designated apartment, and then tring to challenge him to make it clear exactly what he wants.
The main character shows up and does a civilian pickup. She is exuberant. Is what he was doing really that much better than what the others were doing?
Anyway, she turns the tables on him, by tracking him down back to his apartment in the capital city.
My first experience fraternizing with a dancer was at the Brass Rail in Sunnyvale, a zero mileage Go Go Bar. Without any real plan, just impulsively, I offered the girl a drink and got her to sit with me. I suggested that we might go out. She was adamant, "I don't go out with customers."
I had zero experience with P4P or any other form of handing money to women. That was the furthest thing from my mind. She had stuck a pin straight into my honor. Just instinctively I responded by writing my full name and home phone number ( before caller id and cell phones ) on a napkin and handing it to her. I had zero pickup artist skills or rehearsed presentation. I had been totally matter of fact in presenting myself to her. Probably this had a big positive impact.
She took the napkin and held it down at arms length and looked at it and said, "Well okay ... You don't understand, I get hit on by 50 guys a night."
The 50 guys may be true, but comparing me to them was another pin stuck into my honor. There are things I could have said, but I decided to cut my losses.
Worked late the next night, forgot about the entire matter. Came home, saw that my mechanical answering machine had one message, so I pressed the button.
There it was, her voice on the machine. Except that at the Brass Rail there was titillation in her voice. Now she sounded a bit like a nagging wife. "I want to *SEE* you." She was at the Brass Rail
Holy shit! It was already 10pm. That place is open till 2am, and I have to get up early, and I still don't have her phone number to call her back.
In those days I learned repeatedly that ( before cell phones ) strippers are slow to give out phone numbers. They need this extra protection. But they will call back themselves.
Things worked out that not much more happened than this. I feel now guilty about coming on to her, and then not following through. I had not intended to be one of those 50 guys. But I also now she that what she means about the 50 guys was P4P OTC offers.
At the Brass Rail, some girls will agree to have a drink at your table and then flake out and dodge it. The reason is that they don't want to be getting OTC offers. THey don't like it.
Now as I am on TUSCL and I see how many clubs allow FS - ITC, I like that. Power, see, want, get! Nothing could be better.
But OTC, when ITC is available? Mostly that would be to spend more time with the girl. That is good. But why not a civilian date? Especially from the girl's perspective, the line between P4P and civilian can be very thin. If you do enough sessions with one girl, then you are "involved" with her, like it or not.
I think this is what the 29yo is needling you about. But I do think you need to ask yourself what you are seeking and if you really need to be maintaining such a high firewall with these wonderful women.
And yes, I do like my eggs scrambled. But the eggs might be where I would draw the line, maybe. I do plan to be doing lots of FS with dancers at different places, but these will be places I am passing though and trying to quickly establish a network of contacts. Doing FS - ITC at some of the most extreme mileage clubs, and sometimes some OTC, is a way to get fast results, and have some real fun too. I know that many of these ladies are really wonderful to be with.
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Maybe she wanted an overnight babysitter while she went back to work. :)
She also told me that the girls talk about me in the dressing room and asked if I knew the girls did that. I said "Yes. I am aware of that. What are they saying about me?" She said that they say that I am not an easy sell. She told me that she was older than she looked and asked me to guess her age. So I guessed 50. That would have pissed off a few but she just smiled and said that she was 29 and she looked 29.
This went on for 20 minutes with her never asking if I wanted a dance. I figured that I owed her a couple for entertaining me for so long and got 2 smoking hot dances. If you even want to call them dances. It was more like 7 minutes of mutual groping. I did have to pass on the OTC offer. Just two many flags. I'll certainly buy more dances the next time I see her.
The more one SCs; the more one develops a gut-feeling/6th-sense w.r.t. dancers – many of these dancers will come across “normal†in the club but be problematic OTC.
Dammit Art!
What the fuck am I doing wrong????????????
If she was really going to cook you breakfast, then she would be auditioning to be your civilian girlfriend. You should not accept that unless you are really open to that possibility. To lead her on would be wrong.
You have told us how much you usually pay, for ITC. So I don't know what was on the table with this girl, ITC, OTC, or an overnighter at her place. If it was just ITC, then I think she is just playing with your some. She is acting like she already knows you, based on dressing room gossip.
Black girls offer real names and phone numbers. I don't take the names seriously. The phone numbers maybe. There is some meaning to it. I think just talking with her, getting to know her, and then deciding would be best. ITC or OTC may have been just fine.
SJG
They don’t need your money. At this point, they don’t even want your money, because it has become a matter of honor. So when she says that they are talking about you, what she means is that as you have left them no other alternative, they have assembled a posse. They are now sharing information and working together to break through your defenses and civilianize you.
Usually when a guy is maintaining a firewall around his personal life, he is doing this because he is married. Of course the girls pick up on this in the first 30 seconds. Because you indulge so heavily in OTC, I assumed incorrectly that you must be married. That you are not, but that you still keep the dancers out of your personal life and keep it strictly P4P, is unusual in my view. They obviously consider you to be a unique case, and now they have organized in order to break you.
I have mentioned briefly about my own experiences with AMPs and AAMPs. AMPs are storefront Asian Massage Parlors. These used to be more common in my area, and they used to have more better looking girls, like young Vietnamese. I would say about 25% of the customers would do FS, and the rest HJ. But the service was not usually GFE, or anything even close to it. The advantages of AMPs though, were that you could window shop and you could learn to gain some real points with the girl by letting her see that you are picking her over and above the others. Often I did get phenomenal GFE service, but it was because the girl was auditioning to be my civilian girlfriend, and so she just surrendered to my advances and gave her unreserved consent. There was no need for any verbal negotiation, as it had become a civilian date. After some preliminaries and making out I would just take the bed sheet and the pillow off of the narrow massage table and spread the sheet out on the floor. Usually they had a chair which was supposed to be for dressing. These came in handy too. Sometimes when it went this way she would not even ask for money, though I would always still give them the customary amount at the end as a show of respect. No amount of money though would ever have been able to compensate her for the way she had fully offered herself to me for a full 60min.
AAMPs, Apartment Asian Massage Parlors came later, with cell phones, with the Red Book and its exacting terminology and its reviews of each individual service provider, and with LE having gotten tougher on the storefront AMPs. With AAMPs the women were often not as good looking and there is not supposed to be any window shopping. Often the women speak little or no English and they are here on a tourist visa. They are not auditioning to be anyone’s girlfriend. But the default service that they give to most people ( RB-GFE = DFK + DATY + BBBJ + MSOG ) is much higher, and usually it goes very well. I still miss the storefront AMP places though, because the sessions were often more personal and the communications were better, and because the women were actually residing in the US and so they had interests that went beyond money and that type of a job.
The women in all of these places and in strip clubs would not be there if they did not get paid. But on the other hand, getting paid is not what they want most out of life.
So I have to pose the question, what is it that you want? If you have money, you can keep doing P4P every single day, and there will always be dancers to take care of you. But is that what you really want? They are giving you’re their very best, and this is not because you are paying them, it is because they really like you and they care about you.
I figure that most of these clubs hire around 2 new girls per week. We know how many clubs there are in your area. You have also mentioned two cities in an adjacent state. With even just a handful of clubs, they will be hiring girls faster than any one man could ever keep up. So since you will never be able to do all of them, to what ends does this go?
SJG
As I know, girls start dancing and they are offended by the P4P-OTC offers. What they would like are civilian date offers, from guys who treat them nicely. Then they find out that these later are very rare in a strip club. So eventually they decide, "Well, if the guy wants p4p, better to just play along with him." They realize that if they try to renegotiate a p4p offer into a civilian date, saving the guy some money, they will scare him off! He wants to pay!
So then what is the money for? It is hush money. Most of these guys are married. Or even worse, they look down on the dancer, seeing her as being of a lower social class and hence not datable or marriageable.
Eventually dancers get so bored that they accept OTC. In the movie Incredible Lightness of Being we see a local girl at a resort town, working as a barmaid, and fending off prostitution offers continuously. She even goes so far as to play dumb and go with one guy to the designated apartment, and then tring to challenge him to make it clear exactly what he wants.
The main character shows up and does a civilian pickup. She is exuberant. Is what he was doing really that much better than what the others were doing?
Anyway, she turns the tables on him, by tracking him down back to his apartment in the capital city.
My first experience fraternizing with a dancer was at the Brass Rail in Sunnyvale, a zero mileage Go Go Bar. Without any real plan, just impulsively, I offered the girl a drink and got her to sit with me. I suggested that we might go out. She was adamant, "I don't go out with customers."
I had zero experience with P4P or any other form of handing money to women. That was the furthest thing from my mind. She had stuck a pin straight into my honor. Just instinctively I responded by writing my full name and home phone number ( before caller id and cell phones ) on a napkin and handing it to her. I had zero pickup artist skills or rehearsed presentation. I had been totally matter of fact in presenting myself to her. Probably this had a big positive impact.
She took the napkin and held it down at arms length and looked at it and said, "Well okay ... You don't understand, I get hit on by 50 guys a night."
The 50 guys may be true, but comparing me to them was another pin stuck into my honor. There are things I could have said, but I decided to cut my losses.
Worked late the next night, forgot about the entire matter. Came home, saw that my mechanical answering machine had one message, so I pressed the button.
There it was, her voice on the machine. Except that at the Brass Rail there was titillation in her voice. Now she sounded a bit like a nagging wife. "I want to *SEE* you." She was at the Brass Rail
Holy shit! It was already 10pm. That place is open till 2am, and I have to get up early, and I still don't have her phone number to call her back.
In those days I learned repeatedly that ( before cell phones ) strippers are slow to give out phone numbers. They need this extra protection. But they will call back themselves.
Things worked out that not much more happened than this. I feel now guilty about coming on to her, and then not following through. I had not intended to be one of those 50 guys. But I also now she that what she means about the 50 guys was P4P OTC offers.
At the Brass Rail, some girls will agree to have a drink at your table and then flake out and dodge it. The reason is that they don't want to be getting OTC offers. THey don't like it.
Now as I am on TUSCL and I see how many clubs allow FS - ITC, I like that. Power, see, want, get! Nothing could be better.
But OTC, when ITC is available? Mostly that would be to spend more time with the girl. That is good. But why not a civilian date? Especially from the girl's perspective, the line between P4P and civilian can be very thin. If you do enough sessions with one girl, then you are "involved" with her, like it or not.
I think this is what the 29yo is needling you about. But I do think you need to ask yourself what you are seeking and if you really need to be maintaining such a high firewall with these wonderful women.
And yes, I do like my eggs scrambled. But the eggs might be where I would draw the line, maybe. I do plan to be doing lots of FS with dancers at different places, but these will be places I am passing though and trying to quickly establish a network of contacts. Doing FS - ITC at some of the most extreme mileage clubs, and sometimes some OTC, is a way to get fast results, and have some real fun too. I know that many of these ladies are really wonderful to be with.
SJG