Are strip clubs turning into brothels these days?

42 comments

• FONDL

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  18 years ago

  BTW, Sexkitten, I share your dislike of clubs that are essentially brothels and I generally seek out places that aren't. I realize that there may be some girls in even the cleanest places doing extras or at least booking OTC assignations, but as long as it's out of sight, I don't much care. There's nothing anyone can do about it anyway without destroying the club, any more than you can stop drug use among the girls, which I don't much like either. And I agree with Minnow, thanks for posting an interesting topic.
• minnow

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  18 years ago

  sk70: My compliments for starting an interesting and provocative thread. My intention was not to hold out free market argument as a be-all, end-all divine mantra, but to point out that given the increased supply of clubs & dancers(2300 clubs listed in 2004/2005 ED Guide vs 1500 Clubs listed in 1992 ED Guide, a 53% increase) either prices must drop, or customer must get more for same$$. As for your lawyer example- Same thing. You can't just decide to hang out a shingle, and call yourself a lawyer, must go through law school, and be certified in state. Yet, if increase in no. of lawyers outstripped demand, then , yes there'd be a bunch of half price lawyers. Not so for dancing(formality of getting Sheriffs Card NOT analogous to law or medical school). "But its the LAW". ... Then you say, in later post that you're not against prostitution, and that it should be legalized!!! If you want to open a no contact club, by all means, knock yourself out. Nobody is stopping you. But, just because (to use an analogy) you as an automotive manufacturer, do not wish to build a car capable of exceeding the posted speed limits, please don't lobby for installing a speed cutoff device on competitors cars, or stationing a cop on every exit ramp. Get over it, or move on.
• FONDL

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  18 years ago

  I'd agree with sexkitten's last paragraph too if it were possible, but it isn't and it would be incredibly expensive and fruitless to try. It's impossible to enforce any law for which there isn't a very high level of voluntary compliance. Look how much success we've had eliminating the sale and use of marijuana. The only way you could eliminate extras in clubs is to eliminate the clubs. I'm not in favor of that.
• chandler

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  18 years ago

  I could also agree with sexkitten's last paragraph, except that she seems to include lap dancing or even any contact as prostitution to be kept out of strip clubs. I don't want to give up lap dancing, thus my modest proposal to retain it under another name. Sexkitten: If clubs were "cleaned up" and prostitution made legal, where would I be allowed to go for lap dances, or would they need to be outlawed to keep from "ruining it" for clean strippers and escorts?
• Yoda

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  18 years ago

  Sexkitten: I agree with the last paragraph of your last post. I do think however that you are placing the blame in the wrong place in your earlier posts.
• JC2003

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  18 years ago

  Any woman who works in a strip club and gets offended by advances from men for her to perform sexual acts for them is living in some kind of dream world and probably needs to get into a different profession. Maybe a world where guys didn't constantly approach strippers for sex would be a better world, at least for strippers, but it isn't the real one. If you wave a steak in front of a dog; he's probably going to bite your hand, OK?
• chandler

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  18 years ago

  If you have nothing against the activity as long as it's not in strip clubs, then how about if we call them something else, like "brothel clubs"? All us customers could keep going there and get our lap dances, etc,, and you and your sisters could have the strip clubs for yourselves. I'd be cool with that.
• sexkitten70

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  18 years ago

  A lot of you guys brought up some really good points. Especially about how other industries break the law to make money. It's up to the other workers in the industry make sure the law is enforced so that one person doesn't have an unfair advantage over the other. My solution, Chandler, is that the other dancers get together and complain to management. If this doesn't work, they will need lawyers to sue, law enforcement to enforce the laws and bust the clubs, and special interest groups like the ACLU make sure that women in strip clubs aren't forced to prostitute themselves. As I said before, I have nothing against prostitution. In fact, I think we should be able to have brothels and escort agencies in every city along with strip clubs. I think it should all be legalized. My problem is that when strippers turn tricks in strip clubs, they ruin it both for other strippers that would rather not do this. They also ruin it for thousands of escorts out there who do provide the "extras." In order to solve this dilemma, prostitution needs to be kept out of the strip clubs and placed in brothels and escort agencies, massage parlors - where it belongs.
• T-Bone

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  18 years ago

  Sexkitten - Get over it.
• giveitayank

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  18 years ago

  FONDL...You nailed it!!! Good post...
• FONDL

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  18 years ago

  I'd also like to add that doing thngs that are illegal to increase your income is pretty common among people in many different industries. Four very common examples: truck drivers who get paid by the mile exceeding speed limits so they can drive further; small business owners taking their family and friends out to dinner and charging it as a business expense; salesmen padding the expense account; and waitresses under reporting their tip income. I don't see strippers offering extras as being any different. When ignoring laws and regulations is in their best financial interests, and the risk and potential cost of getting caught is small, many people are going to do it. I'm sorry if that offends you but it's a fact of life.
• giveitayank

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  18 years ago

  Sexkitten...All I was saying regarding escort services that some...SOME of them want an appointment set up in advance. With that being said, some guys like the convienance of not having to wait and go to a strip club and get it done right away. I think it's a good thing you're no longer a stripper.
• chandler

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  18 years ago

  Sexkitten: You've established that you think the present state of affairs is sad. I'm curious to hear what would you propose be done to turn strip clubs into something that would meet your approval? You want all strippers to raise their standards, right? I don't think that's going to happen in a vaccuum. Only as a result of some drastic changes in the business. The most obvious change could come from widespread police raids that would bust thousands of strippers and shut down hundreds of clubs. Is that what you'd like to see? Even that's not practical, since it would require unified action among local communities nationwide. So, please do tell us if there's something we're missing.
• FONDL

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  18 years ago

  Sexkitten, I think you're overlooking the fact that the entire sex industry has undergone enormous change in the past decade or two. In fact strip clubs have probably changed the least. There are still plenty of girls out there earning a good living by stripping without doing any extras, and there are still plenty of clubs that rigidly enforce their rules against excessive contact. Any girl who prefers that kind of environment can easily find it. "... and they should be required to pay them even if it's just minimum wage." Obviously you've never worked as a waitress. I don't know of any restaurants that pay their waitresses minimum wage or above, they rely almost exclusively on tips, and unlike strippers waitresses are employees. Strippers are independent contractors running their own business. If some of them want to do extra things to increase their income, what's wrong with that? Who are you to tell someone else how they should run their business?
• davids

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  18 years ago

  sexkitten: You are missing a deeper point: Despite the lies you strippers tell yourself men do really go into stripper clubs b/c they want "fantasy" in the sense you mean it: Being mislead by strippers into thinking dating or sex awaits them down the line if only they will spend a bit more money. Really you women just use "fantasy" as a lame euphemism for lying, b/c that is what you want to do to make money. Good for men these days if they are finally catching on and expecting strippers to deliver the goods raise than sell "fantasy". May stripping rest in peace. Good riddance. The world will miss you not!
• Yoda

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  18 years ago

  Sex Kitten: I never said that women go to work in strip clubs to be prostitutes though in actual fact some prostitutes do go to work in strip clubs to find customers. A club has no obligation to tell a dancer what other dancers might be doing. To inform a prospective new dancer that illegal activities may be going on inside the club would be admitting to knowledge of those activities. If you think a club owner is going to admit to that you are living in a dream world. I stand by my original statements; nobody forces a woman to become a stripper...or a prostitute. Whatever decisions she makes about contact levels, extras or prostitution are hers and hers alone. The option to walk out the door and find another job always exists. You stated yourself that you decided not to return to dancing when you realized what it had become. It sounds like you made the right choice for you. Every woman has the right to make whatever decision she chooses about working in a strip club.
• sexkitten70

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  18 years ago

  Here's my answers to the posters who came after my last post: Yoda - Women do not go to strip clubs choosing to be prostitutes. They go there because they want to dance topless, naked, whatever and get paid. Also, they are willing to dance tables to make money, but they aren't willing to prostitute themselves. The clubs have a duty to let them know that that's what they are getting into. Abbie - I think the "laziness" you are seeing is more hopelessness. Most of these women have the attitude of why should I bother to dance for these assholes when all they want is a hand job. When they try to just dance clean on stage or as a table dancer, they get NO money. Minnow - I didn't say that we should necessarily go back to bikini clubs of the 70s. Topless and nude clubs are fine by me. But no contact should be the rule in any club. It's the LAW. Anything else IS considered prostitution. As far as the free market argument goes about supply and demand, we could argue that for any job professional or not. What do you do for a living? Let's just say you are a lawyer who has to go to law school, pass the bar, etc. Now, according to your free market theory, I should be allowed to practice law whether I have a license or not. If I want to charge 1/2 the price you do, too bad. It's a free market. How would you like those apples? The rules and laws are there for a reason. Or how about if I started selling drugs in a house right next to yours, because the cops either didn't enforce the laws or there was no law against it. When you have scumbags getting high up and down your block and shoot outs every night and you complain. I could just say, "Hey, it's a free market, I can do whatever I want." I don't think you'd appreciate that. Chitown - I would expect you of all people to understand the law since that is your handle. Unless, it is just a handle. The women in the strip clubs are being driven into prostitution if they can't make money in any other legitimate way. The owner of the club could go down for pimping or pandering whether he has knowledge of it or not. Criminal law 101, right. In most states, any type of contact with a dancer's genitals, buttocks, breasts or with a man's buttocks or penis is considered prostitution. FONDL- I saw your argument for them to go to clean clubs. Unfortunately, the way things are going, there are very few left. I understand the competition, but these clubs need to limit the amount of women they hire and they should be required to pay them even if it's just minimum wage. Giveitayank - Yes, I know about escorts and escort agencies. I worked for one. If you flip open the yellow pages in most cities, you can find a 24/7 operating escort agency that will send a girl to you for all the sex you can dream of. JC2003- oh yes, I'm such a prude, because i think strip clubs should be places where women STRIP and TEASE instead of sucking cock. I thought there was a name for a place like that. Oh yeah, now I remember, a whorehouse.
• Golfer99

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  18 years ago

  I can't speak for all clubs sexkitten but it seems to me that in 90% of the clubs I have been in the dancers fit into 3 categories 1) the drug addict who has to work to make lots of cash to support her or her boyfriends habit 2) the young girl who got kicked out of her house, get pregnant and has no education or husband but a kid to raise or 3) the ones who enjoy the thrill of stripping and making lots of money doing it. I guess that you could also add a category of the ones who are too lazy to be working at somewhere making $8.50 / hour and figure hey I can work here and make lots more. I do think that some of the clubs exploit the dancers, some charge much like the old coal mining towns, money for a locker, money for outfits, drinks, shifts, etc. However lots of clubs I have been told (by the dancers) just charge them a flat fee daily to dance. Granted most of these clubs serve alcohol and have a door fee but they make lots of money on those things. A club charging $6 for a beer or a bottle of water is making a load of money. Add to that $8 bucks a head to get in and probably $50 each shift per dancer - well do the math. Those clubs don't care what the dancers do and how much they earn, they get their money from the other things and keep in mind that they get 99% cash so they probably report about half of that to the IRS and pocket the rest. So I guess you can say the dancers get used, the patrons get used and the clubs get used.
• giveitayank

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  18 years ago

  One thing to consider is the convienance factor. Have you ever tried to set up appointments with on line escort services??? I've done this but, many of them don't take sameday appointments. You have to make the appointment days or sometimes weeks in advance. It all depends on the escorts schedule. With a strip club/brothell, you go there any time you feel like it. And that's much more convienant than waiting days or even weeks.
• Yoda

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  18 years ago

  Most cities have clean clubs, dirty clubs and probably a few that fall somewhere in the middle. Most dancers are willing to drive a ways to find a club that suites their comfort level with contact. If a dancer decides to work in a club where she has to perform extras to earn good money it's her decision. If a dancer is not attractive enough to work in a busy clean club it is also her decision- this category is a huge pet pieve of mine as I am continually accosted by ugly women who are trying to sell me a dirty lap dance that I just don't want to buy. The club owners provide a venue for these ladies. What goes on inside the club between customers and dancers is largely determined by the dancers. Even the cleaner clubs have to have one or two "dirty girls" just t draw business.
• JC2003

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  18 years ago

  I would recommend that the OP not start a club. Prudes shouldn't be running any sort of nightclub, let alone a strip club.
• minnow

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  18 years ago

  It appears that sk70 feels that evolution from clubs(Shift pay PLUS tips/NO CONTACT) to clubs(Tips MINUS Payouts/CONTACT) constitutes slipping into brotheldom. As FONDL aptly points out, much of this is driven by customer expectation demand versus club & dancer supply forces. $15/hr shift guarantee 15 yrs ago is equivalent to roughly $22/hr today. How many non-professional( Profes.= Drs, Lawyers, Engineers, etc), non-supervisory jobs would pay that kind of $$? Plenty of waitresses would gladly take 1/2 that guarantee plus tips. Exploitation?? If so, why are so many women investing in boob jobs (aka breast enhancement) to take up a stripclub gig? 'Ya don't hafta do that to work at Walmart. Things evolve over time, indeed some hot sports cars today get better gas mileage than many econoboxes of over 20 yrs ago. People want bang for their $$ today.
• FONDL

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  18 years ago

  I don't know of any cities that don't have some clean clubs. So girls working in clubs that aren't clean do usually have an option. If they choose not to work in a clean club I don't think they have much reason to complain. I agree with what others have said, the basic reasons that extras seem to be taking place in more clubs is because of economics - increased competition has made it harder for some girls to make money dancing. So they resort to doing extras. And sex for money of all kinds has increased. Customers have much more too choose from.
• davids

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  18 years ago

  sexkitten: It is more respectable for strippers to lead on customers into thinking that sex/dating "might" await them down the line (keep in mind most regulars have personal "issues") than to just to deliver the goods honestly and upfront without all the dishonesty? That's a pretty strange view of respectibility and higher standards, IMO.
• davids

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  18 years ago

  Everyone gets exploited in strip clubs: customers by strippers. strippers by customers and management. I think very few can end up feeling good about themselves at the end of it all (casual customers are an excpetion). And if they do, it's probably b/c of something not involving money.
• chandler

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  18 years ago

  Even when they're selling sex itself, strip clubs are still selling a fantasy, except it's one of emotional intimacy, not just sex. Whichever is the allure, there has to be some possibility of it coming true to keep the customers coming back. Too much or too little certainty, and we lose interest in the illusion.
• chitownlawyer

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  18 years ago

  In the St. Louis area, a club that had bikini/"go-go" dancers, would be considered quaint in kind of a retro way. In St. Louis City and County, where the obscenity laws are very strict, there are a couple of bikini clubs that don't do very well in competition with the well-known establishments on the Illinois side of the river. They attract mostly a neighborhood crowd. To me, it seems that once you are going into a club that features women who are less dressed than the social norm, you are already admitting to a certain amount of prurient interest. Once you've made that admission, you might as well seek out the highest degree of carnal entertainment possible. Going to a bikini club seems to be the worst both worlds--you are admitting that you are a horndog who wants to see nekkid women--but you're not getting to engage in the offense for which you are copping the plea.
• chitownlawyer

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  18 years ago

  I think we might be on the verge of a gender-dividing issue here, since I agree with the other gentlemen. I don't think that women are being driven to doing extras by economic deprivation, as by their rational calculation of their ability to make money in available alternative employment. Frankly, given social stigmas against intimate touching, nudity, etc., I think that the bigger leap, for a woman who has been brought up with the accepted norms of our society, is from non-stripping employment to stripping. Once a woman accepts the idea of dry humping a complete stranger for money, taking Mr. Happy out for further contact of one sort or another isn't that much of a leap (or so I have argued in VIP rooms all over the country...). Last month I was talking with a dancer who does extras quite openly. She said that she has been offered jobs dancing at more "upscale" places, but she says she likes the relatively quick and easy money she makes doing extras, through and including FS. I think that she is unusual only in the objective and honest way that she looks at her situation.
• giveitayank

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  18 years ago

  I agree with Yoda. It's not the clubs that are doing anything that the dancers/prostitutes have to put up with. Quite frankly, it's the customers (us) that they have to put up with. Men like us are willing to spend good money for extra's. And if they won't provide the extra's, many of us will go elsewhere. $1,500 for a six hour shift is not uncommon for these women. And there is no other profession where they can make that kind money even if they didn't finish high school. SEXKITTEN...You can make the arguement that it is sleazy and these women have lowered thier standards. But what drives it, is not the clubs. it's money.
• minnow

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  18 years ago

  sk70- To answer your original post, I wouldn't say that clubs or dancers that do bjs or hjs ( your apparent threshold of brothel/prostitution threshold) are the norm, but it happens. However, it is relatively rare(r), on a national scale, for clubs to be bikini no contact clubs. Nude no contact,yes, but many prior bik./topless clubs that were no-contact have at least 1way contact as the norm. In the pre-internet days, B&B(Bikinis&Beers) might be OK for a group of guys whose idea of a road trip was a quick turnpike roll to Atlantic City, but with the wild times @ FL , Frisco, Vegas, etal, being more widely & rapidly communicated, the old way of doing things won't cut it.
• AbbieNormal

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  18 years ago

  I'd say that the reason so many girls "turn tricks" in the club isn't because they have to, it's because it is a much easier way to make the big bucks. It's a lot easier than getting out there and hustling. Then of course the other girls have to up the mileage to be competative, so perhaps you could say some "have to" turn tricks, but my feeling is that it's more laziness and greed that makes them do it.
• Yoda

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  18 years ago

  It's been years since any club in my area paid dancers to work a shift. To be fair, this didn't happen over night. The concept of private dances and dancers keeping the money that they charged for them put an end to shift pay and brought in the dawn of house fees. In the beginning dancers didn't really care. When things where good a dancer could make $1000 a shift doing private dances-no contact, no extras. Eventually competition among dancers for customers led to more contact, then even more contact to the point where dancers started offering extras and, eventually, in some clubs, full-out prostitution. It's not completely fair to blame clubs for exploiting dancers. Women choose this occupation and the lowering of standards has as much to do with dancers competing for a shrinking customer base as it does with greedy and stupid club owners.
• sexkitten70

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  18 years ago

  OK, the reason I posted the question is, yes, I used to be a dancer and I thought about owning a club myself. I'm not against prostitution, but I'm against strip clubs doing it, because we are supposed to be selling a fantasy not sex itself. If we sell sex, there would be no need for escort agencies and why then call it a strip club. I started dancing in clubs in New Jersey when I was 18 about 15 years ago. Back then, it was strictly bikini go-go and we got paid 15 an hour or more and got to keep our tips. I guess now-a-days that could only be considered a dream come true. The last club I worked in was about 6 years ago and it was a topless, lapdance club which has become the standard throughout the nation. I found lapdances hard to do, because to me, it is too close to prostitution. I have danced tables back in NYC, but I never had to get any close to the men. It seems to me that the women have really lowered their standards and will do almost anything for a buck. It's sad to see it go from a respectable occupation to women having to turn tricks inside the clubs to make ends meet. They might as well be standing on a street corner. I noticed that the last time I danced, 6 years ago, there were a lot more drug addicted women in the club as well. Needless to say, I left the occupation and haven't been back since even though I still have the body. My feeling is that any person who works a job should get an hourly wage and be able to keep their tips just as a waitress does or a bartender for instance. I think the clubs just exploit the shit out of the women these days and out of desperation, they put up with it.
• FONDL

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  18 years ago

  I think it's come full circle. If you go back to the 1960's and before, a lot of strip clubs were essentially brothels. And every city had a red-light district where most clubs were concentrated. (If you want to know what it was like, visit the "Block" in Baltimore, it's the only one that I know of that hasn't changed in the last 50 years.) Most cities cleaned things up in the 70's and 80's and either eliminated or strongly regulated their "adult entertainment districts." That forced clubs to scatter to outlying areas, mainly industrial areas where nobody much cared what went on and there were lots of factory workers to serve as customers. At first those clubs were generally cleaner than the ones that they replaced. But a lot of the activities have re-emerged in these places in the last 20 years. Economics and sex are hard to outlaw.
• Golfer99

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  18 years ago

  Probably bad sport to post twice in a row. First let me apologize to the question starter. You could be a club owner or patron and I assumed you were a dancer. The real issue. The patrons fall into several categories, one who wants to go nurse a few beers, tip at the stage once in a while and watch, a group who just want to go in get drunk and misbehave (the younger crowd), the guys who enjoy the hobby and want to go in check out the club maybe to find a really hot dancer that they like for lap dances. The issue on prostitution - it is more or less viewed as a victimless crime. The escorts are generally not harassed nor are the clubs - once in a while the police get enough local pressure to do something from the religious right. The street hookers, yes they get hassled and they should. As for the 'extras' in the clubs. First 95% of the legitimate escorts will spent 1 hour with you in private for $250. If we go into a club, we pay an entry, high prices for drinks and then we are susposed to pay $25 each for 4 minute air dances?? Let's be real about what the true economics are here. A club isn't a good bargin for sex of any kind (99% of the time) - excepting Adelita's in Tijauna. The dancer who does the extras is willing and wanting to please the customer and justify the high price. The club allows it because they get a cut of her take in, they get to serve expensive drinks, they get to charge to get into the VIP and they get lots of return clients. I enjoy the thrill of getting to see lots of hot women take off most or all of their clothes and the excitement of getting something that is fun - be it a lap dance, an extra or even extra attention at the stage. It's one of my forms of entertainment.
• Golfer99

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  18 years ago

  Well first I think that lots of times we do the club and the dancer a disservice when we tell of all the extra things that she did for us (all of us). Just a way to get them in trouble if we aren't careful and then poof all the fun goes away. However I would direct you to the disclaimer at the bottom of the board - All reviews and comments on this site should be considered works of fiction. I assume that you are a dancer. Let us in on your dances, how you like to be treated and what you think the limits of a club should be.
• chitownlawyer

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  18 years ago

  The public is not really interested in having law enforcement concentrate on prostitution per se. Very occasionally there will be a bust on an escort service. However, generally, the only time that prostitution receives substantial law enforcement attention is when it becomes a public nuisance, such as in the case of streetwalking. The public ethos toward sex anymore is that people can screw who they want to screw, under any circumstances that are mutually congenial. I have only been going to strip clubs for about ten years, so I don't have the long term perspective of people like FONDL, and can't tell if strip clubs are "turning" into anything that they haven't always been.
• chandler

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  18 years ago

  Oops! Wrong thread. Sorry.
• chandler

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  18 years ago

  I'm surprised that nearly everybody says they stop at two. I see a lot of guys in the clubs going on forever, getting at least 5-10 dances at a time. Maybe they're newbies. I used to get more than I do now. Does it have to be a bad dance for you to only get one? Not me. It only means that I don't anticipate it getting much better if I were to continue. So she doesn't get the wrong idea, I say something like, "Thanks. That was awesome."
• davids

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  18 years ago

  Short answer: yes.
• AbbieNormal

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  18 years ago

  Yep, a lot are and have been for a while, but there are still a lot of places where "extras" are either non-existant or very limited. I've remarked on other threads that I have avoided "The Block" in Baltimore and a few of the more notorious San Francisco clubs because I didn't want to visit a brothel. So I am inclined to agree with you that this is a bad thing, but a lot of others don't feel that way. My guess is that the prostitution is already quasi-legal (the authorities won't touch it) in some of the clubs in the areas I've mentioned so it'll probably become more common.
• chandler

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  18 years ago

  Handjobs and blowjobs have always been going on in strip clubs. There seems to be more of it now, but it may just be talked about more. There's also a lot of bragging on this site and competition to top each other's claims. Note the disclaimer at the bottom of the page. And it doesn't seem that prostitution busts are any more common. I believe they are more related to politics than they are to conduct.