Obviously, strippers make up only a tiny fraction of all women, so there's no fair way to compare. Still, I don't go to strip clubs because the women look that great. Even at the best clubs for lookers, I believe we always overrate how good they look. You can easily find better looking women in a regular bar or dance club. It's just that they aren't as accessible. It's why you hear the phrase "best looking woman I ever saw in a strip club". If you saw her anywhere else, she'd be just another pretty face.
Chandler: I should probably revisit my comments on oggling. It's not that I don't enjoy the women on stage but I don't go to the clubs strictly for that reason. My primary goal is one on one engagement. For this reason I don't really look for a high body count of gorgeous women whn I choose a club-just a few that are my type. It is also for this reason that I don't really compare dancers to non dancers when it comes to looks.
And yeah, the beach is fun! I happen to live near one where many of the Brazilian dancers in the Boston area go to work on their tans...
Lotsoffunn: No need to apologize. Sobering is good. The way you launched straight into it, I honestly wasn't sure whether you thought we had been discussing strippers as dating material. For that matter, Book Guy probably assumes we were.
Yoda: So, you're not into ogling women in strip clubs because you do your ogling at the beach? Sounds good to me.
Certainly I'd never say or do anything lewd, but sensabilities being as tender as they are nowdays I often wonder how little it would take. In my college days a woman who went to a party alone and got drunk was, while not asking for it, an idiot to say the least. Now she's a victim hapless victim whose own behavior is beyond criticism. This case in Anapolis is a perfect example. Two cadets, both admitedly drunk, both hazy on what happened, but can we call it an unfortunate incident and move on, each person recognizing they showed poor judgement and while impaired ended up in a situation they later regretted? Nooooo. Somebody has to be blamed, 'cause bad things don't just happen.
Oh, and back to the topic, I'd actually be more concerned about offending an unstable boyfriend than the woman in dental floss.
BG, I admit I've usually only skimmed your essays on interactions with hot women, but I'd have to hazzard a guess that the big attraction of the clubs is a nearly zero rejection risk. I'd say that it's not that strippers are the only ones you talk to, just the only ones you risk talking to since OTC getting shot down by a hot chick is pretty common for most men.
I'd say the only thing I want to really emphasize, is that there are pretty girls all over the world, but the ones WITH WHOM I GET TO TALK are only in strip clubs. Thing is, thanks to this thread, now that I've articulated that fact (and no, I had not ever understood it in that manner), clubs are losing a little of their appeal and I'm feeling less frustrated about "real life" than I used to. Now I'm looking around for options for "solving that problem" rather than merely thinking, "This life sucks. I don't get hot chicks."
I don't know if I'll solve it, and the idea of being a model-photographer was just one pipe dream leading in that direction. But now I've got the right thinking cap on, at LEAST!
AN: Honestly, if I see a woman walking along the beach wearing two piweces of dental floss I don't worry too much about offending her with my stares. looking at a pretty girl-in any environment-is a time honored tradition. I do what generations of men before me have done. I'm polite, I don't drool and I don't make lewd comments. If a beautiful woman is offended by my looking at her it's her problem to deal with, not mine.
Chandler, Yoda, Ogling women is a major attraction for me. As Chandler said you can't get away with that kind of thing anymore OTC, which is why my girl watching is usually on standby when OTC. Stripclubs are one of the last bastions of that male privelege. Even the beach you have to be careful lest you give offense. I mean come on... If you are offended by guys staring at your body don't display 98% of it.
Also if we were talking averages then lotsoffun would have a point, dim red lighting hides a lot of flaws and liquid courage (or pharmeceutical) helps the sexy/hot parts of the personality emerge, so if they were both judged OTC on the same basis I'd say civilian women win hands down. Since we're talking about the top stunners I stick with my previous statements that they are very different forms of attractiveness.
I apologize if I got a bit off topic with the dating issues, but I felt it went hand in hand with the original thread question. I also apologize if my comments are a bit sobering, but they are all true and not embellished at all. In fact, I toned them down a little.
In my line of work I have many clients who are C.G's as well as dancers, and for the most part not a single one of them looks as good as they do in the club or on their websites.
It is just a simple fact that good lighting, coupled with a good photographer (in the case of the C.G's) and a little dose of liquid adult courage make girls look better than they actually are. this is of course not to say that all of them are ugly, just not the 9 - 10's we all think them to be.
Chandler: I didn't mean to denegrate the practice of openly oggling beautiful women at all. I agree it's a wonderfull practice it's just not the primary reason I go to clubs....at least not most of the time.
I haven't had much time to read here lately but it seems that your topic has generated a lot of responses...always a good thing.
Yoda: That's exactly why I started this topic. There is no need to make a comparison, so nobody talks about it except to assume strippers look better. I thought it would make for an interesting discussion to confront the question.
BTW, being able to openly ogle women is one of the great things about strip clubs, in my humble opinion.
Lotsoffun: Sobering observations there, to say the least, pretty close to cliche territory. My experiences with strippers have been quite varied and not nearly so bleak. BTW, nobody's really talking about dating strippers, at least not in this thread. And after your depiction, noboby's liable to start.
BG - maybe you're just overthinking everything. You remind me of the guy who crams so hard for a test that he oversaturates himself, trying every study technique possible, and then blows it on test day.
Your desire to surround yourself with hot women is just about every man's (and some women's) greatest hope. You may just have to accept the fact that it might not be meant to be....not all of us can live that kind of charmed life.
The idea of surrounding yourself with attractive women is good. I've seen it work myself, when I helped hook up a few friends with dancers & other hotties. Ya never know til you try.
And as a last resort.....there are worse things in life than buying hot pussy, if we can't get it otherwise.
Dating stripplers is no panacea. For the most part they come from sexual abusive backrounds or relationships. I have been with a stripper for the better part of 12 years, and have met countless girls outside the club. Better than 75% of them are married or have some form of significant other. Most of them are very plain looking or worse. Remember there is a lot of lighting and makeup in the clubs, and the outfits they wear are not usually something you would see in the street. All of this coupled with alcohol and atmosphere make them to be much more attractive then they really are. While they have nice figures for the most part. The lights and makeup hide the stretch marks from childbirth, scars, acne, and a variety of other deficiencies.
If, and only if you can look past the outside, could you find what lies within. Oh yes, and by the way. For the most part they suck in bed since they are grinding on men all day long, the last thing they want to do is grind some more when they get home just like lawyers don't like dealing with law, and doctors don't like dealing with medicine after hours.
Do you think an accountant likes to go home and do tax returns just for fun?
Coming home usually involves the same ritual. Taking a bath or shower to wash the makeup off or other filth that comes home. Washing outfits for the next day, eating dinner, playing with the kids, and going to sleep in something you would never find at Vicky Secrets, but rather at the sporting goods store. Intimacy is usually infrequent and planned well in advance.
As far as the way they dress when in normal life. Generally pretty conservative. They wear slinky clothes all day long with high heels and other acoutrements. At home it is generally sweat pants, and baggy tee shirts. Occasionally there is a pair of shorts which leave everything to the imagination.
Remember if they are out with their husband or S.O, the last thing they want is to be recognized by some customer at Wal-Mart or at dinner. One time we were out and some sleazy customer came over to our table telling her what a great time he had the other day. What transpired after that was an instruction from me for him to leave us alone and to keep his fantasy to himself since it was not something I wanted to hear.
AN: Good point. I agree that we tend to look more critically at strippers in a club. However, I think this mainly works against girls in the middle of the curve. Our expectations are too high. The whole setup is telling us, "Look at these girls. Admire their beauty." OTC, seeing a pretty girl is a nice surprise and makes a stronger impression. Anymore, though, my expectations of seeing a stone knockout ITC are so low that I'm just as surprised and appreciative when I do.
On the other hand, I think the very fact that strippers are immediately available to us as visual or physical playthings (or accessible for conversation, whatever your pleasure) leads us to evaluate their looks on an entirely separate scale. It's like if you're shown a tray with a selection of desserts that you can choose from, the one that looks the best sets the standard for you, and you don't even think about how a dessert that's not available might compare (unless you're a masochist).
The result of these two contradictory tendencies, I believe, is that we overlook how many strippers in a good club are at least attractive, yet at the same time we avoid acknowledging that the top of the ITC scale is usually no match for women you can easily find OTC.
I don't really go to clubs looking to ogle women. I like to talk and buy a few dances. For this reason I don't really worry if a girl is a ten in lokks and since I'm not looking for a girlfriend I could care less how she compares to non-dancers. My only interest is in finding a lady or two who I can spend some time with and some money on. If I was single and looking for available womwn I probably would not restrict myself to strip clubs...in fact, I probably wouldn't even bother with them.
I see plenty of gorgeous women in and out of clubs, I don't really understand why there needs to be a comparison.
Book Guy, I hear you. There were certainly times that I felt the same way, it can be very frustrating.
Let me ask you a question, do you have any really close female friends? I was lucky in a way, although at the time it sometime felt more like a curse, but I always had close female friends. In fact my closest friends have always been female.
Assuming that you do have at least one close female friend, here's what I suggest - level with her, tell her your problem and ask for help. And if you don't have a female friend who you feel that close to, cultivate one. And be alert to possibilities - in retrospect it occurs to me that some of my female friends probably wanted to be more than friends, but that just never occurred to me at the time.
Second question - are you physically active? Do you go to a gym regularly or run or ride a bike or play a sport etc? I found that working out regularly dramatically increased my self image. It's also a good way to increase your circle of friends. I was never much of an athlete, but I've found that as I get older it's all about staying fit, it doesn't matter how much ability you have. Fit people are more attractive.
FONDL: Thanks for your suggestions. (LOL. I took such a long time to type this response, my log-in expired! Yeesh ...)
I do have some female friends, but there's a conundrum there. As you have done, I too now realize that many of them are hanging around as friends in the vain "hopes" that something more might develop. In fact, once or twice in my life in other locales, women have gotten their courage (usually along with their blood-alcohol level) up to demand, "what is WRONG with you, I've done EVERYTHING to let you know I'm interested" (which of course was a lie; they'd FLIRTED, they hadn't SPOKEN CLEAR SENTENCES; but that's a different issue). Point is, I therefore was in the difficult position of having to inform someone, "Well, I'm not interested." inevitably my disinterest was because they were physically unattractive to me.
So I'm of two minds, as to keeping these fellow humans around, misleading them for my own benefit. I guess a really conniving hot-babe type would do just that, "this is the friend who wants to fuck me but I won't give them the time of day, but she can drive me home when I let her."
I wonder how I've lived with such unattractive people? I try to assess FAIRLY just how many hot people I know inside, and outside, of clubs (as is the topic of this message) but what I realize, is that I've consistently been in a community of undesirables. Grad students in the humanities aren't ALL slovenly dolts who don't know to bathe regularly, but somehow I "respected" the opinions of ugly girls who didn't know to bathe regularly. Combined with the other suggestion, above, that I should try to hang with attractive women in order to attract attractive women, this realization points out to me that maybe I'm selling myself too cheaply -- letting people who aren't exactly "together" occupy my time. Maybe I need to seek out more winners, whether it be at work or in my social life.
And for another reason, I hesitate to ask my female friends about how to get a date with a hot female. In general, the stories women tell about "what turns them on" are royally bullshit. They spin the romantic ideal -- I want a sensitive man (she says from the back of Bubba's Harley) who will treat me like a lady (she says while scouring pots to boil his undershirts) and respect my opinions (she says while voting for his party even though it contradicts her deepest convictions). No, women can't articulate "what the problem is" any better than I can. They have fantasies about their ideals, like we all do; but then they don't actually respond positively to the things that they say they would appreciate, as much as they do respond positively to aggressive, almost arrogant degrees of posturing and dominance-display.
You'd think this would be a simple solution. "Well, if it's aggressive, almost arrogant degrees of posturing and dominance-display they want, give it to 'em!" But I'm eveidently transparent when acting like that. Then they say, "Just be yourself," which doesn't work either. The "self" I'm being is someone who doesn't get dates with the women whom that "self" wants to date. Why would I want to "be" that person?
I get your well-meaning comment, that women might help me to understand women. I have tried some of that medicine, and found it rather bitter, and mostly ineffective.
About fitness? I'm out there, man. sorry that's not news to me either. In fact, maybe I'll head out to the gym right now. I'm getting my head all wrapped up in whining about women, I'm kind of thinking that I'm not really expressing my true opinions any more, just a lot of complaints that are coming to the fore for some reason or other. It's probably best if I looked at this in the clean light of day instead.
Thanks, though, for letting me vent. I'm sure few of us really have a clue about women. In general terms, I believe I have done well WITH THE WOMEN I'VE MET. The question is, WHERE are the HOT WOMEN whom I would RATHER date? How come I don't ever meet THEM? They keep themselves so secret and rare ...
Chandler, I think there is one problem with trying to compare ITC beauty with OTC beauty other than what I've outlined. When I am in a stripclub, I'm in active girl-watching mode. In a bar, while that mode is operating it is on more of a standby status ready to flag the conscious mind if an alarm bell goes off. In short in a club I'm checking out everything in heels, OTC something usually grabs my attention, so I think there is yet another complication to the comparrison. OTC only the best looking women get my attention. ITC even an average woman giving you a stevie stageside gets your attention.
FONDL ... I have heard of your chicken-and-egg quandary before. I do think that "being seen" is part of the phenomenon that I am ineffective at. Previously in this and other discussions, I've called it, "having game." It isn't just which female arrives on your arm; it's also about wardrobe, posture, body language, vocal quality, hairstyle, the gamut. Women like to talk about how they "judge" a man to be a good catch or not and then reject or accept accordingly, but as far as I can tell, they're as shallow about it as we men are; it's just that, the things they're shallow about aren't the same as those that WE are interested in. If I got a nice tit-job and blonde extensions, I don't think I'd be getting any farther with the ladies!
Thing is, I can only SORT OF identify those things that I'd like to try to portray. In some ways, females have it easier. All they really have to do, is improve their looks. Sure, there are plenty of women who are doomed, cursed with hideous faces, dreadful teeth, shockingly misproportioned bodies. For them I have some advice despite the seeming difficulty of their situation: PLASTIC SURGERY. That is, if they deem the trade-offs to be worth it. The cost in terms of money, effort, self-esteem, sense of identity ... it's up to them to compare that cost to the potential gains, of impressing people with your looks.
But for men? What advice do I have? Get taller. Have a moustache, except when you're not supposed to have a moustache. Be seen with a hot-looking woman, except when a female who is shy but nevertheless a potential mate is around, in which case don't be seen with anyone because that might put her off. Make sure you wear nice shoes (shoes are a REAL fetish for chicks), but not so nice that they look more bling pimp style, but not so crappy that they don't look somewhere near to bling pimp style, but not so bling pimp style that they look crappy or nice. Get into a social network to develop good friendships -- but then, of course, the girls will automatically get the excuse that they would rather not "ruin a friendship" by dating you, so you'd better not be friends with them. And most important, NEVER ASK THEM OUT. If you ask, they can say "no." If you don't ask, it might "just happen." Of course, if you DON'T ask, that makes it all the less likely that you'll ever spend any time with them in a circumstance in which it might just happen. So, don't ask, but do ask.
How does anyone figure out this crap?
My current theory is that I should get into photography, and solicit beginner models for free shoots so we can help each other get started. Modelmayhem.com seems to be a good starting place. At least that way, I can interact with some attractive women to try to figure out their world view, and evne if I don't get to fuck them in the studio (always a fantasy!) at least I'll be able to use one or two as escorts to public events where (to follow FONDL's theory) I'll be seen with them. Hope there aren't any shy girls whom I put off with my arm-candy! :)
Erm, just venting. Very annoyed at females ... must be testosterone ...
I always found that the way to meet attractive women was to be with an attractive woman. When you're with an attractive woman, other women will automatically find you more attractive. I've both read that and had women tell me that, and I've found it to be true. I met and had a lot of fun with several very attractive young girls through my ATF. Just being with her made got me accepted as a friend to her friends and in turn to their friends. Book Guy, if you want to meet attractive women, find get yourself an attractive woman friend and hang out with her.
And Chandler, I guess I answered your question then when I said that I'd met some very beautiful women in strip clubs. And some outside of strip clubs. There are lots of equally beautiful women both places. They just dress differently (or not at all - LOL.)
Book Guy: Sorry, I don't know what to say you should do other than change your attitude and try something different from what you're doing now. I doubt if anybody feels as "free to interact" with non-strippers, attractive or not, as you seem to want. Like I've said, strip clubs have kind of warped my outlook, too. But it doesn't stop me from getting out a little and being sociable with people of all kinds just for its own sake.
Hell, why don't you join a club, like FONDL recommends? Personally, I'd sooner undergo shock therapy. But it probably beats feeling defeated before you even leave the house. And smile like an idiot every time you make eye contact with a pretty girl. That's supposed to work wonders.
Indeed, I too am up in the air about my own attitude toward these issues. Glad we're discussing them to the point that you have indicated some degree of contradiction in my reports. That's gotta be good for me ... erm ... somehow ...
I guess it doesn't have much to do with the ACTUAL subject of the thread -- how do strippers and non-strippers compare, looks-wise? -- but it can be tangentially related. I'm essentially rephrasing the question, to one of access -- how do strippers and non-strippers WHOM YOU ARE FREE TO INTERACT WITH SUCCESSFULLY compare, looks-wise?
For me, I think you know the answer. I wonder, though, why I feel so limited in my access to non-stripper attractive women? I keep hearing a little voice in the back of my head, that I only need to ... something. I wonder what that is? Move cities? Learn game? Deal drugs? Get a high-paying job? Get off the internet? Spend more time on the internet?
FONDL: I'm not concerned with averages, because I'm not looking for average women. I'm asking about finding the best looking women and how strip clubs rate for that. It's intended to be a question more of experience and impressions than one of statistics. I wouldn't know where to begin determining average looks, and it doesn't sound like a very enjoyable pursuit anyway. I'm less interested in hard, fast answers than in further questions raised in the discussion.
Book Guy: Once again, it's hard to tell to what extent you're compaining about not seeing hot women or just not meeting them and "having access" to them. What's the point of seeing them, you ask? Well, they're more fun to look at and be around than homely women. I consider it a pleasure hanging out in one of these bars I've described, not a torture. It really sounds as though, by giving up on the smallest rewards and finding nothing but pain in any situation that doesn't provide "ready access", you're painting yourelf into corner where strip clubs are your only option. That's the kind of tunnel vision I think we all settle into at times, when we think in terms of travelling to a strip club that has "a great llineup of lookers". Chances are, there's a regular bar nearby that would put them to shame on looks alone.
Note to self: Don't ever move to where Book Guy is if the only hot women are in the strip club.
Sorry man, but your posts are serious downers. You seem like you are complaining about not being able to meet hot women, and that the strip club is the only place that you can meet hot enough women for you. I don't know where you are looking, but you should try places that are differant from where you are going now other than the club. Yes, it's harder than in a club, but the reward is you have a MUCH better chance of having any kind of relationship outside of stripper-customer.
Book Guy, I agree that for many of us it's easier to meet attractive women in a strip club than anywhere else. That's a major part of the attraction for me, I'm an old fart and if I tried to strike up a conversation with a really good looking girl in a bar somewhere she's probably going to get annoyed. Not so of course in a strip club. But meeting a girl in a strip club is rarely is going to lead anywhere other than the LD room, unless you're willing to invest an waful lot of time anad money.
I also agree with Chandler that there are a lot more really good lookin women outside strip clubs than there are inside,,but there are also a lot more funglies outside too, there are just a lot more women period. Which is why I inferred from his question that he was talking averages.
I also agree with AN that attitude is an important part of being attractive, I don't think you can separate looks from personality. For example, my ATF would be pretty average looking if she walked around with stooped shoulders and a long face. But with her positive and upbeat attitude, her big smile, her self-confidant and outgoing manner, her graceful movements, and her glowing and friendly personality, she becomes really beautiful. I've met a lot of women who at first appeared to be attractive until they moved or opened their mouths, and suddenly they weren't. Personality is a big part of my definition of beauty.
FONDL: My point is what I wrote in my original question. I read a lot of posts and reviews that seem to presume a difference in favor of strippers. I'm thinking of Book Guy's laments, all the gushing about dating strippers as some pinnacle, and countless reviews about all the beautiful ladies in clubs. At least you don't agree with that. My point is that there are a lot better places than strip clubs to find the best looking girls. I'll grant that ATFs are the exception, since I'm not out to disparage anyone's infatuation.
I agree with AN that cute and sexy looks count for more in strip clubs than pure beauty. However, I could easily find more and better cute and/or sexy looks also in the same bars I've been talking about. I go to strip clubs for other advantages that they offer.
Chandler, if you're limiting the comparison to the best looking girls I've seen either inside or outside of clubs, I don't see any difference. I've seen really gorgeous girls both places and lots of them. For example, I've met good looking strippers OTC for lunch or dinner and was pleasantly surprised how good they looked in street clothes in a normal restaurant setting. When my ATF quit dancing and went to work as a waitress in a regular sports bar, she was always the best looking girl in the place. So I guess I don't understand the point you're trying to make.
I think my point is that strippers have to be judged on a somewhat different scale since their job requires them to cultivate the sexy and hot kinds of attractiveness. They can be intrinsically cute and sexy and work to enhance that part of their looks, but for the most part I don't see what I'd call beautiful women stripping. Most strippers are cute and/or sexy and work at being hot.
I agree about size being the paramount consideration for breasts, and we've talked about this before. I'd rather see small and natural than large and botched, but I still think that the best boob jobs even though they don't look natural (mostly because of the size and lack of droopiness and the girl is far too lean to have that size boobs) can make a girl look sexy and/or hot. Think of it as an artists rendition of the platonic ideal of the female breast.
You guys are of course free to take this anywhere you want, but I'm not at all interested in "the average girl" in or outside of clubs, or which group's average is weighed down more (no pun intended) by fuglies. So it didn't even occur to me to exclude those considerations in my question. I'm only interested in the best looking women, and thoughts about what you find in strip clubs versus anywhere else, and why.
I was a little apprehensive that you were detouring off to whether looks are as important as personality. That's an entirely different topic as far as I'm concerned, so I'm glad we're not going there afterall.
I do have an issue or two about types of attractiveness. A big problem for me with the selection of girls in strip clubs concerns tits. Even in the best clubs, a lot of girls I consider totally unattractive apparently make the cut because they have big tits. That's not at all important for me. If anything, I prefer them small. Big tits often come with a fat ass, flabby thighs, a pudgy face and other features that are not nice. And that's not to mention strippers who look worse for having a bad boob job. I really think the bigger-is-better mentality warps the selection, and if it were cast aside, that alone might make a big difference in my view of stippers' looks.
Also, I do focus primarily on the face in evaluating a girl's looks, so I am more readily impressed by what I see in regular bars. However, a face I find hot usually comes with a hot body. I don't often see the wide face/body ratings split that others are so concerned about. I guess I view attractiveness as an overall attribute. And not to get all Wilt Chamberlain on you, but I've seen enough women clothed and unclothed that I feel I can judge their bodies a lot more reliably than some here seem to think can be expected. Of course, it's more fun to judge them naked.
And Book Guy, no matter how sorry the sights you've seen may be, any mid-size city must have some hip clubs that draw in all the hottest pussy in the region to come in dressed to kill on prime nights. There are about ten of them clustered within three blocks of my office. Then, when I walk the mile between work and home, I pass directly through a college campus and close by two or three other colleges. So it's my luck (or curse) that I see babes all the time just going about my business. In your case, you might need to seek out the hot spots with a little more effort than checking out your co-workers and stolling through the downtown mall.
FONDL, thanks for the vote of confidence in my ability to stay on topic. Now to veer off again my sort of ad hoc definition is that sexy is a lot about attitude, but as far as looks go it tends toward the more exotic and less common traits than what are considered classically beautiful. A good example is Gina Gershon. Her lips and mouth make her sexy because they aren't quite proportioned right for a classically beautiful face, so you notice them more. Hot, as I mentioned is more about the over the top way of dressing or enhanced looks. A boob job may make a woman hotter without making her sexier because it looks un-natural, but basically in looking un-natural announces that the only purpose is to make guys want to fuck her. Kind of an intentional porn star/stripper look is what I think of as hot, while a woman can be sexy in almost anything.
Yes it does, I think it's pretty close to how I view those terms.
Upon further review (I'm getting mentally ready for football season), it occurs to me that we have to get back to our old discussion about the relative merits of face, body and personality to answer the original question. And while, as you point out, we all probably have minimum standards of acceptability for body, face and personality, those minimums are going to differ a great deal from person to person.
For example, my minimum acceptable hurdle for body is quite a bit higher than my hurdle for either face or personality, because that's what I go to strip clubs for, to see beautiful naked bodies. I can see pretty faces anywhere and I can find nice personalities lots of places. But strip clubs are the only place where I can see a bunch of attractive naked bodies. And I like a girl to appear to be fit, if she doesn't look pretty fit I'm not interested, regardless of how wonderful her personality is or how pretty her face is.
So if we're going to talk about who is more attractive, the average girl on the street or the average stripper, I'm going to place most of my emphasis on the body as my measure of "attractive." And for their ages I think the two groups are about equal, although I will admit that I haven't seen many young non-strippers naked, except at the beach. And there's probably a strong self-selection process there too, eg. only the best bodies are likely to wear revealing bikinis. Which is fine with me.
So bottom line, we don't really have any way of knowing the answer to the question. We must all do much more research.
AN, I like your classifications and I don't think you're hijacking the thread, I think what you're saying is very relevant to the topic. If I had to prioritize what I generally look for in a club, I'd say cute first, then beautiful, then sexy, and probably hot last. Probably most of the people here would reverse that order.
If we apply those classifications to the general public of women vs. strippers, non-strippers might have a higher portion of cute and beautiful women but maybe strip clubs have a higher percentage of sexy and hot ones. I say that because to me cute and beautiful are mostly natural traits while sexy and hot are more learned behavior, and strippers have more of a need and opportunity to learn that behavior.
Actually I'm not too sure what the difference is between hot and sexy. Maybe sexy implies a little innocence while hot implies more down and dirty? When I think of sexy I think of playful and flirtatious, while the hot girl is much more (or less) than that.
PS -- I agree that "sexy" is heavily influenced by attitude. There are some super-hot barbie-doll types who carry themselves so princessy, and who announce to all and sundry that they're better than anyone else, that I can't imagine wanting to interact with them despite their photogenic appeal. That goes for real-world women and strippers, both! Another part of "attitude" to think about, is their pro-activity. A stripper will initiate a conversation, or at least realize it's her responsibility to carry on 50% of it, when a guy at her bar approaches her; a civilian simply stares blankly with, "Well, entertain me while I ignore you," like when you're trying to teach a pet cat to sit.
First, I'd say, this thread seems tailor-made for me. I'm glad we're discussing this topic.
Second, I'd say, I don't initially agree with the received wisdom, that "real life" girls are generally as hot as, if not hotter than, strippers. For me, I just don't ever get the CHANCE TO INTERACT with anyone who is "hot enough" to be a stripper at all.
Let's define terms. I guess I don't mean "hot enough to be a stripper" since there are, sure, plenty of ugly strippers. I guess I mean, not to DESERVE to be a stripper. There are some scary hags who work as strippers, but we all agree that "they shouldn't be stripping," I think. Aside from them, plenty of strippers, I can categorically say, fit within the group of people who are super-hot. And no office workers that I have ever interacted with fit within the group of people who are super-hot. So, my definition of "hot enough to be strippers" is, albeit subjective to me, nevertheless a very high sort of level of appearance that strippers DO attain and civilian women DO NOT.
Add to that, the fact that women can genuinely improve their appearance a few notches through the intelligent application of fashionable hairstyle and makeup, and concealing or revealing clothing. One thing, I'm sure we all know, that strippers have, is a BODY THAT NEED NOT BE CONCEALED. Many many women in the "real world" are quite attractive when viewed in their normal civilian outfit. I would, I think, nevertheless be appalled to have to look at them in a g-string. The minimal level of body-fat necessary to be able to, ahem, "pull off" wearing a g-string and high heels, and nothing else, is extremely rare in our culture. Here in Mississippi, even the college girls have turned to obesity, to the point that a "natural" body of a 15-year-old is not usually attractive to me. A usual 15-year-old, as I remember it from my own High School days, would have been hot enough (simply in terms of the skinniness); but even that has been eclipsed, at least where I live now. Bellies sway below belt buckles, linebacker shoulders carry wide dorsal rafts.
There are also a large number of college girls (for example, on "Wild On" and "Girls Gone Wild") who are hot enough to be strippers. Whether or not they DO strip is a different question. But their age makes them have a girlie, childish, unappealing attitude, for me. In fact, watching "Girls Gone Wild" type shows, whether a half-hour on TV or just as trailers on the internet, fills me with annoyance, FRUSTRATION about the women. There these hot girls are, NOT letting me fondle them, NOT giving me blow-jobs. Why would I want to see that? I don't need a reminder that I'm lonely.
So, all that palaver having been dealt with, I ask myself: why do other dudes think that civilian women are so hot? Are they unable to recognize the bulging fat bellies and thighs, through all those carefully tailored business suits? Do they have an unreasonable sense of charity for women who have "normal" outlooks? Or am I the one who is an idiot, and can't see the hotties walking about me everywhere? Or maybe, am I in a group of people who just aren't all that attractive? Maybe men who live in non-obese places (Iceland?), or in major cities known for their glitz and glamour -- Vegas, LA -- have a leg up on the rest of us. But then again, maybe strippers in those towns are mostly girls who had almost enough looks to become celebrities but didn't, quite, make it; this would again make the strippers super-hot, wouldn't it?
I think back to my recent forays out of the house. I was in downtown Memphis, at the Peabody mall recently, and at the baseball game nearby. I saw some hot women, but each had what I would have to call a "not good enough to be a stripper" body. There were floppy tits (too many kids) and probably C-section scars; there were fat thighs, or half-and-half bodies (you know; the lower half comes from a voluptuous Marilyn type; the upper half comes from a waiflike Twiggy type); and there were a LOT of wedding rings, which for me means, if nothing else, they are not accessible.
No, I guess I COULD try to be the dude who breaks up a marriage, but I don't really see that I'm going to be skilled enough to do that. Heck, I can't even pick up single girls, why would I deliberately laden myself with extra challenges?
And accessibility is what I'm really talking about. The opportunity to talk with them, cuddle with them, then engage in at least SOME kind of intimacy with them.
If I genuinely felt like CIVILIAN non-stripper women who were "hot enough to be strippers" were "accessible" in that way to me, do you think I'd be in a strip club trying to find them? No no no. And I'd rename it, "hot enough to be my girlfriend" rather than "hot enough to be a stripper" and then I'd just be saying something obvious: that many strippers are hot enough to turn me on. If civilian non-stripper women were, as well, hot enough to turn me on, well then why would I ever go to a strip club?
I dunno. I'm sensing I'm in the minority here. I'd be delighted if someone could disabuse me of my misapprehension, by convincing me somehow that the civilian hotties were out there, were accessible to me, and were therefore worth my effort. If I ever learn otherwise, I'll certainly let others know. I grasp at straws. There's one girl, maybe two, around here, who could pull it off by pullin' it off. But remember that there's the definite possibility she's hiding something. I've seen the fattie strippers leave the club in their civilian outfits and I've been stunned by how attractive they suddenly became, their giant bellies swathed in dangling patches of blouse, their waggling asses, formerly so cellulite you could light a match on them, now packed tight into now-appealing jeans. "Thank goodness I didn't meet her at a dance club and take her home!" I think to myself, "What a come-uppance it would have been when I finally got her naked!" I see so many potentially hot civilian girls, and I realize that for every one, that come-uppance is a possibility.
I've never really approached the boy-girl game from a sense of plenty; the pickins' is slim and that very much disappoints me. In fact, I have spent times in my life resentful of women who "allow" themselves to gain weight or get unattractive out of my own selfish sense, that I ought to have a right to more viable dating options and they were proactively limiting my options. I certainly can't really defend that position ethically or even logically, but it does sometimes sneak in to my thinking by the back door and sit around for a while before I try to purge it again.
Stippers? Well, the ones who are "hot enough to be strippers" are, redundantly, hot enough. There are some ugly ones, let's just forget about them. But the others, the "real" ones? They're hotter than any of the civilian girls I've ever met. That, or I haven't seen the strippers in the cold harsh light of day. But I remind the board, that they haven't seen the civvies naked either.
Now to complete the hijacking of this thread I'll add this little tidbit. I think there are different ways a woman can be attractive. I tend to think along the lines of cute, sexy, beautiful and hot. A woman can be cute without being sexy, or sexy without being beautiful. Hot is a catagory I kind of reserve for the over the top CFM look, but I'm open to suggestion, I'm still working that one out. For example, Courtney Thorne-Smith (the wife on "According to Jim") is cute, but not sexy, beautiful, or hot in my opinion. Angelina Jolie is definitely sexy, not cute, beautiful, and possibly hot. Ashley Judd is beautiful, but not much else. In this scheme of things strippers are (again my opinion) usually cute/sexy/hot, but rarely beautiful.
I agree with AN that, once a girl meets a minimum threshold in the looks department, then pesonality becomes most important. But I think that fewer and fewer strippers meet that minimum threshold than used to be the case, even in the fancier clubs. Like almost everyone else, strippers have gotten fatter on average over the past couple of decades. I also don't think that girls at a regular club or bar are a good measure of the average non-stripper - I think there's a self-selection process where the less attractive girls are more likely to stay home.
There is a lot of makeup, outfits and lighting involved with these girls. I see girls who dance out and about all the time (small town) and, if you didn't know, you'd never guess they were strippers. They often look very ordinary.
I might add that I remember one club that had almost all very pretty strippers. The club was strictly no contact but enjoyed a lot of out of town visitors willing to spend some money on table dances. I went just to enjoy the eye candy.
Some of the dancers I see in at least one strip club, I seriously wonder how in the world they are making any money. I don't usually feel repulsed by the strippers in a club but one club has at least two dancers who will clear the stage. I was trying to think how fat the one dancer was. I think I remember a guy who weighed over 300 lbs but he could leg press over 1000 pounds. This dancer was huge. I would be happier with an occasional empty stage than have repulsive dancers working a club.
I've seen a few very pretty strippers. However I've seen quite a number of very pretty girls not working in a strip club.
Bingo! I think AbbieN nailed it. Was sitting here reading the posts thinking there is a big difference but what? Attitude is what makes the better dancers smoke. Attitude and sexual energy versus a more serious, iffy attitude from those strolling the mall. Personally I like the attitude and energy set off by alot of the black dancers and island dancers. They perform and do so with an attitude. I may start a thread about them later. Happy hobbying.
I've always thought that sucessful stripping was more about attitude than looks (once you pass a minimum threshold of looks of course). The hottest barbie doll stripper will end up leaving me cold if she's boring and gives lame dances.
FONDL, I agree that there's a lot that goes into looking good in a strip club that is impossible to compare. I should explain why I started this topic at this time. Last week, I hit a bunch of dive clubs I've enjoyed in the past despite the marginal looks of most of the strippers. This time, they were even less than marginal. After driving back home, on Friday I was thinking I might head out to one of the more upscale Detroit clubs just to see some actually attractive strippers and restore my faith, whatever. But I didn't feel like driving anywhere so soon, so I stuck close to home instead. Friday evening, I hit a couple of bars near where I work. At each bar, and just everywhere I looked in the bar district, I saw far more knockout women than if I'd driven over an hour to one of the top rated (or ranked?) clubs in the nation. What we go to such lengths for is women who are accessible, for whatever, and good ENOUGH looking. Nothing more.
Chandler: How would you know that some of the "other" women AREN'T strippers?? Seriously, I think you may have a point. I've walked from 1 end of mall to the other and seen far more good looking women than I have at stripclub adjacent to mall. But, strippers gotta shop somewhere, lol.
I agree, but you also don't get to see 99.99% of the non-stripper population naked, either. But you see the stripper poplulation in regular clothes and wish they were naked, because otherwise you wouldn't show interest, probably. In truth, strippers are a typical portion of women, lookswise.
I only wish some of the hot women I see were strippers. But you know how it is. You think how great that would be, then you realize it's not very likely. They look too good to be strippers. On the other hand, when I see women customers in a strip club, I assume the better looking ones are off-work strippers and the homely ones aren't. I'd say most strippers are within a range that's better than average, but not exceptional. Their type of look also falls within a range that's very conventional, meat and potatoes in its appeal, not striking or exotic (ethnicity aside), like a breathtaking model.
This weekend I was at a party and there was a really hot looking teenage girl there. I kept wondering how I could get a lap dance from her.
I agree that strippers are pretty average for their age group. I've seen plenty of both strippers and (presumably) non-strippers who were really hot and plenty of both who weren't. But then I only really look at the good looking ones in either group, and it's more fun to look at them when they are naked. So I generally prefer to look at strippers. I think it's harder (no pun intended) for a girl to look good naked than with clothes on.
Chitown: I guess accessible could mean naked, safe to stare at, readily available for physical contact, or for chatting about anything you please. All the things strippers are and hot chicks in trendy bars usually are not.
But to not to be all negative about strippers: On the positive side we can at least say that they score above average in bed, due to all the experience they get bouncing around on dicks at work.
Absolutely. Strip club managers don't get the chance to hire the best-looking women they see--they get to hire the best-looking women among those who will take off their clothes in front of strangers, along with the other things that may go along with being a strip at that particular club. After twelve years of going to strip clubs, I have only seen one women who I would put in the category of "Top Ten Most Beautiful Women I Have Seen First-Hand in My Life."
Chandler, when you talk about strippers being "accessible" as compared to women one meets in other venues, I read "accessible" as "naked."
For a random sampling of x strippers compared with an a random sampling of y non-strippers, and keeping the ages the same between the groups, the strippers would, almost certainly, be WORSE looking.
They would also have worse personalities, be below average intelligence, have less education, more psychological issues, more drug problems, have far less class, and have worse ethics. But we are getting a bit sidetrack if you want to go down that road.
Oh they would score HIGHER in terms of promiscuity, however. This may or may not be a good thing, but I'll leave readers to judge that one for themselves.
Well, I guess I'm still in the minority, and I'm willing to acquiesce to the wisdom of the group since my experience in all these matters is (obviously) limited. I recall my good old days when I lived in a big city -- Toronto, Tampa -- and I'd regularly complain not that I couldn't find hot women; but that I couldn't MEET them even though I saw so many hikin' about. Even here in bumble-backwater Jackson, MS, there are plenty of hot married women at the local chix-chix-froux-froux boutiques buying expensive shoes and having penne salads for lunch. Married.
It's strange to me, the difference. You can see SO many attractive women merely by looking around and walking about a big city or by looking around at a strip club. (By the way, we don't have a downtown mall here. We basically don't have a mall here. We certainly don't have ten clubs. We used to have one, but it just closed. Maybe that's the root of my problem.) But then, when you mentally consider your own extended group of acquaintances, colleagues, and other "links" that would legitimately provide for the opportunity of dating, you end up with such a poor selection. There are hot women who EXIST, sure, but what good does it do us to know about them when we don't actually know them as friends, dating partners? What's the POINT of simply SEEING them?
That's what my situation is like. I'll agree, that you can look around on the sidewalks of a major city and see attractive women. Whether or not the total mean distribution with a standard deviation from the upper percentiles compares favorably to the same sample taken from strip clubs, I guess we can continue to argue. But I don't KNOW the hot women who walk along the sidewalks. Nor do my friends. Nor do my friends friends. I tried to work it out, in a previous thread: I have actually spoken, in a conversation, outside of my fantasies and dreams and not in a strip club, with six or fewer "hot enough" women in my life. "Hot enough" that I would want them to be my girlfriend. Six, I think, outside of strip clubs.
I guess that's my only point, that strip clubs give me ACCESS to women who are hot enough. I don't believe for a minute that just "getting out there" onto the sidewalks of a bigger city would change my perception of this situation. I've lived in bigger cities, and although I don't live in one right now (that will be changing! I hope!), I never experienced "ready access" to ANY female who was "hot enough" EVER. Why would that change magically? How many of you believe that merely by asking a hot woman out, you'll get a date with her? That's never happened for me. In fact, I'd go so far as to say, that exactly the thing which prevents women from "ending up" dating me, is the very fact that I ASK. If I play it "cool" (somehow. I don't know how) then it might "just happen," but if I ASK, I get a "no."
Maybe I just "ain't got game." If I did, I'd think that strip clubs were a waste of time because there were women who were just as hot, but a lot less expensive, and probably a lot more emotionally balanced, waiting for me at one of the ten dance clubs next door to my apartment. I guess, if I had Armani suits, Ferrari cars, free time, a cool glib gift of the gab, and several rental properties that gave me passive income, maybe I'd believe that options in real life existed.
I don't currently believe that the options do for me, or for MOST men. Otherwise strip clubs wouldn't make money. Most men who patronize clubs agree with me -- that is THE ONLY PLACE to get access to women who are hot enough.
And I don't mean, perfect women. I only mean, HOT ENOUGH. Bare minimum. Boy, I've already lowered my standards a LOT from back when I was in High School. I'll settle for someone who isn't obese, and who knows not to pick her nose in public. I don't meet those humans in real life. I only meet them in strip clubs.
No, never thought in terms of dating strippers. I didn't ever believe that a "good" place to find a girlfriend would be a strip club, relative to most "real world" places. But that didn't keep me from appreciating visual appearance ... or from thinking that the "real world" is sorely lacking in that department. But I've been mildly disabused of that latter misapprehension. :)
58 comments
Latest
And yeah, the beach is fun! I happen to live near one where many of the Brazilian dancers in the Boston area go to work on their tans...
Yoda: So, you're not into ogling women in strip clubs because you do your ogling at the beach? Sounds good to me.
Certainly I'd never say or do anything lewd, but sensabilities being as tender as they are nowdays I often wonder how little it would take. In my college days a woman who went to a party alone and got drunk was, while not asking for it, an idiot to say the least. Now she's a victim hapless victim whose own behavior is beyond criticism. This case in Anapolis is a perfect example. Two cadets, both admitedly drunk, both hazy on what happened, but can we call it an unfortunate incident and move on, each person recognizing they showed poor judgement and while impaired ended up in a situation they later regretted? Nooooo. Somebody has to be blamed, 'cause bad things don't just happen.
Oh, and back to the topic, I'd actually be more concerned about offending an unstable boyfriend than the woman in dental floss.
I'd say the only thing I want to really emphasize, is that there are pretty girls all over the world, but the ones WITH WHOM I GET TO TALK are only in strip clubs. Thing is, thanks to this thread, now that I've articulated that fact (and no, I had not ever understood it in that manner), clubs are losing a little of their appeal and I'm feeling less frustrated about "real life" than I used to. Now I'm looking around for options for "solving that problem" rather than merely thinking, "This life sucks. I don't get hot chicks."
I don't know if I'll solve it, and the idea of being a model-photographer was just one pipe dream leading in that direction. But now I've got the right thinking cap on, at LEAST!
Interesting discussion.
Also if we were talking averages then lotsoffun would have a point, dim red lighting hides a lot of flaws and liquid courage (or pharmeceutical) helps the sexy/hot parts of the personality emerge, so if they were both judged OTC on the same basis I'd say civilian women win hands down. Since we're talking about the top stunners I stick with my previous statements that they are very different forms of attractiveness.
In my line of work I have many clients who are C.G's as well as dancers, and for the most part not a single one of them looks as good as they do in the club or on their websites.
It is just a simple fact that good lighting, coupled with a good photographer (in the case of the C.G's) and a little dose of liquid adult courage make girls look better than they actually are. this is of course not to say that all of them are ugly, just not the 9 - 10's we all think them to be.
I haven't had much time to read here lately but it seems that your topic has generated a lot of responses...always a good thing.
BTW, being able to openly ogle women is one of the great things about strip clubs, in my humble opinion.
Your desire to surround yourself with hot women is just about every man's (and some women's) greatest hope. You may just have to accept the fact that it might not be meant to be....not all of us can live that kind of charmed life.
The idea of surrounding yourself with attractive women is good. I've seen it work myself, when I helped hook up a few friends with dancers & other hotties. Ya never know til you try.
And as a last resort.....there are worse things in life than buying hot pussy, if we can't get it otherwise.
If, and only if you can look past the outside, could you find what lies within. Oh yes, and by the way. For the most part they suck in bed since they are grinding on men all day long, the last thing they want to do is grind some more when they get home just like lawyers don't like dealing with law, and doctors don't like dealing with medicine after hours.
Do you think an accountant likes to go home and do tax returns just for fun?
Coming home usually involves the same ritual. Taking a bath or shower to wash the makeup off or other filth that comes home. Washing outfits for the next day, eating dinner, playing with the kids, and going to sleep in something you would never find at Vicky Secrets, but rather at the sporting goods store. Intimacy is usually infrequent and planned well in advance.
As far as the way they dress when in normal life. Generally pretty conservative. They wear slinky clothes all day long with high heels and other acoutrements. At home it is generally sweat pants, and baggy tee shirts. Occasionally there is a pair of shorts which leave everything to the imagination.
Remember if they are out with their husband or S.O, the last thing they want is to be recognized by some customer at Wal-Mart or at dinner. One time we were out and some sleazy customer came over to our table telling her what a great time he had the other day. What transpired after that was an instruction from me for him to leave us alone and to keep his fantasy to himself since it was not something I wanted to hear.
On the other hand, I think the very fact that strippers are immediately available to us as visual or physical playthings (or accessible for conversation, whatever your pleasure) leads us to evaluate their looks on an entirely separate scale. It's like if you're shown a tray with a selection of desserts that you can choose from, the one that looks the best sets the standard for you, and you don't even think about how a dessert that's not available might compare (unless you're a masochist).
The result of these two contradictory tendencies, I believe, is that we overlook how many strippers in a good club are at least attractive, yet at the same time we avoid acknowledging that the top of the ITC scale is usually no match for women you can easily find OTC.
I see plenty of gorgeous women in and out of clubs, I don't really understand why there needs to be a comparison.
Let me ask you a question, do you have any really close female friends? I was lucky in a way, although at the time it sometime felt more like a curse, but I always had close female friends. In fact my closest friends have always been female.
Assuming that you do have at least one close female friend, here's what I suggest - level with her, tell her your problem and ask for help. And if you don't have a female friend who you feel that close to, cultivate one. And be alert to possibilities - in retrospect it occurs to me that some of my female friends probably wanted to be more than friends, but that just never occurred to me at the time.
Second question - are you physically active? Do you go to a gym regularly or run or ride a bike or play a sport etc? I found that working out regularly dramatically increased my self image. It's also a good way to increase your circle of friends. I was never much of an athlete, but I've found that as I get older it's all about staying fit, it doesn't matter how much ability you have. Fit people are more attractive.
I do have some female friends, but there's a conundrum there. As you have done, I too now realize that many of them are hanging around as friends in the vain "hopes" that something more might develop. In fact, once or twice in my life in other locales, women have gotten their courage (usually along with their blood-alcohol level) up to demand, "what is WRONG with you, I've done EVERYTHING to let you know I'm interested" (which of course was a lie; they'd FLIRTED, they hadn't SPOKEN CLEAR SENTENCES; but that's a different issue). Point is, I therefore was in the difficult position of having to inform someone, "Well, I'm not interested." inevitably my disinterest was because they were physically unattractive to me.
So I'm of two minds, as to keeping these fellow humans around, misleading them for my own benefit. I guess a really conniving hot-babe type would do just that, "this is the friend who wants to fuck me but I won't give them the time of day, but she can drive me home when I let her."
I wonder how I've lived with such unattractive people? I try to assess FAIRLY just how many hot people I know inside, and outside, of clubs (as is the topic of this message) but what I realize, is that I've consistently been in a community of undesirables. Grad students in the humanities aren't ALL slovenly dolts who don't know to bathe regularly, but somehow I "respected" the opinions of ugly girls who didn't know to bathe regularly. Combined with the other suggestion, above, that I should try to hang with attractive women in order to attract attractive women, this realization points out to me that maybe I'm selling myself too cheaply -- letting people who aren't exactly "together" occupy my time. Maybe I need to seek out more winners, whether it be at work or in my social life.
And for another reason, I hesitate to ask my female friends about how to get a date with a hot female. In general, the stories women tell about "what turns them on" are royally bullshit. They spin the romantic ideal -- I want a sensitive man (she says from the back of Bubba's Harley) who will treat me like a lady (she says while scouring pots to boil his undershirts) and respect my opinions (she says while voting for his party even though it contradicts her deepest convictions). No, women can't articulate "what the problem is" any better than I can. They have fantasies about their ideals, like we all do; but then they don't actually respond positively to the things that they say they would appreciate, as much as they do respond positively to aggressive, almost arrogant degrees of posturing and dominance-display.
You'd think this would be a simple solution. "Well, if it's aggressive, almost arrogant degrees of posturing and dominance-display they want, give it to 'em!" But I'm eveidently transparent when acting like that. Then they say, "Just be yourself," which doesn't work either. The "self" I'm being is someone who doesn't get dates with the women whom that "self" wants to date. Why would I want to "be" that person?
I get your well-meaning comment, that women might help me to understand women. I have tried some of that medicine, and found it rather bitter, and mostly ineffective.
About fitness? I'm out there, man. sorry that's not news to me either. In fact, maybe I'll head out to the gym right now. I'm getting my head all wrapped up in whining about women, I'm kind of thinking that I'm not really expressing my true opinions any more, just a lot of complaints that are coming to the fore for some reason or other. It's probably best if I looked at this in the clean light of day instead.
Thanks, though, for letting me vent. I'm sure few of us really have a clue about women. In general terms, I believe I have done well WITH THE WOMEN I'VE MET. The question is, WHERE are the HOT WOMEN whom I would RATHER date? How come I don't ever meet THEM? They keep themselves so secret and rare ...
Thing is, I can only SORT OF identify those things that I'd like to try to portray. In some ways, females have it easier. All they really have to do, is improve their looks. Sure, there are plenty of women who are doomed, cursed with hideous faces, dreadful teeth, shockingly misproportioned bodies. For them I have some advice despite the seeming difficulty of their situation: PLASTIC SURGERY. That is, if they deem the trade-offs to be worth it. The cost in terms of money, effort, self-esteem, sense of identity ... it's up to them to compare that cost to the potential gains, of impressing people with your looks.
But for men? What advice do I have? Get taller. Have a moustache, except when you're not supposed to have a moustache. Be seen with a hot-looking woman, except when a female who is shy but nevertheless a potential mate is around, in which case don't be seen with anyone because that might put her off. Make sure you wear nice shoes (shoes are a REAL fetish for chicks), but not so nice that they look more bling pimp style, but not so crappy that they don't look somewhere near to bling pimp style, but not so bling pimp style that they look crappy or nice. Get into a social network to develop good friendships -- but then, of course, the girls will automatically get the excuse that they would rather not "ruin a friendship" by dating you, so you'd better not be friends with them. And most important, NEVER ASK THEM OUT. If you ask, they can say "no." If you don't ask, it might "just happen." Of course, if you DON'T ask, that makes it all the less likely that you'll ever spend any time with them in a circumstance in which it might just happen. So, don't ask, but do ask.
How does anyone figure out this crap?
My current theory is that I should get into photography, and solicit beginner models for free shoots so we can help each other get started. Modelmayhem.com seems to be a good starting place. At least that way, I can interact with some attractive women to try to figure out their world view, and evne if I don't get to fuck them in the studio (always a fantasy!) at least I'll be able to use one or two as escorts to public events where (to follow FONDL's theory) I'll be seen with them. Hope there aren't any shy girls whom I put off with my arm-candy! :)
Erm, just venting. Very annoyed at females ... must be testosterone ...
And Chandler, I guess I answered your question then when I said that I'd met some very beautiful women in strip clubs. And some outside of strip clubs. There are lots of equally beautiful women both places. They just dress differently (or not at all - LOL.)
Hell, why don't you join a club, like FONDL recommends? Personally, I'd sooner undergo shock therapy. But it probably beats feeling defeated before you even leave the house. And smile like an idiot every time you make eye contact with a pretty girl. That's supposed to work wonders.
Indeed, I too am up in the air about my own attitude toward these issues. Glad we're discussing them to the point that you have indicated some degree of contradiction in my reports. That's gotta be good for me ... erm ... somehow ...
I guess it doesn't have much to do with the ACTUAL subject of the thread -- how do strippers and non-strippers compare, looks-wise? -- but it can be tangentially related. I'm essentially rephrasing the question, to one of access -- how do strippers and non-strippers WHOM YOU ARE FREE TO INTERACT WITH SUCCESSFULLY compare, looks-wise?
For me, I think you know the answer. I wonder, though, why I feel so limited in my access to non-stripper attractive women? I keep hearing a little voice in the back of my head, that I only need to ... something. I wonder what that is? Move cities? Learn game? Deal drugs? Get a high-paying job? Get off the internet? Spend more time on the internet?
You tell me.
Book Guy: Once again, it's hard to tell to what extent you're compaining about not seeing hot women or just not meeting them and "having access" to them. What's the point of seeing them, you ask? Well, they're more fun to look at and be around than homely women. I consider it a pleasure hanging out in one of these bars I've described, not a torture. It really sounds as though, by giving up on the smallest rewards and finding nothing but pain in any situation that doesn't provide "ready access", you're painting yourelf into corner where strip clubs are your only option. That's the kind of tunnel vision I think we all settle into at times, when we think in terms of travelling to a strip club that has "a great llineup of lookers". Chances are, there's a regular bar nearby that would put them to shame on looks alone.
Sorry man, but your posts are serious downers. You seem like you are complaining about not being able to meet hot women, and that the strip club is the only place that you can meet hot enough women for you. I don't know where you are looking, but you should try places that are differant from where you are going now other than the club. Yes, it's harder than in a club, but the reward is you have a MUCH better chance of having any kind of relationship outside of stripper-customer.
I also agree with Chandler that there are a lot more really good lookin women outside strip clubs than there are inside,,but there are also a lot more funglies outside too, there are just a lot more women period. Which is why I inferred from his question that he was talking averages.
I also agree with AN that attitude is an important part of being attractive, I don't think you can separate looks from personality. For example, my ATF would be pretty average looking if she walked around with stooped shoulders and a long face. But with her positive and upbeat attitude, her big smile, her self-confidant and outgoing manner, her graceful movements, and her glowing and friendly personality, she becomes really beautiful. I've met a lot of women who at first appeared to be attractive until they moved or opened their mouths, and suddenly they weren't. Personality is a big part of my definition of beauty.
I agree with AN that cute and sexy looks count for more in strip clubs than pure beauty. However, I could easily find more and better cute and/or sexy looks also in the same bars I've been talking about. I go to strip clubs for other advantages that they offer.
I agree about size being the paramount consideration for breasts, and we've talked about this before. I'd rather see small and natural than large and botched, but I still think that the best boob jobs even though they don't look natural (mostly because of the size and lack of droopiness and the girl is far too lean to have that size boobs) can make a girl look sexy and/or hot. Think of it as an artists rendition of the platonic ideal of the female breast.
I was a little apprehensive that you were detouring off to whether looks are as important as personality. That's an entirely different topic as far as I'm concerned, so I'm glad we're not going there afterall.
I do have an issue or two about types of attractiveness. A big problem for me with the selection of girls in strip clubs concerns tits. Even in the best clubs, a lot of girls I consider totally unattractive apparently make the cut because they have big tits. That's not at all important for me. If anything, I prefer them small. Big tits often come with a fat ass, flabby thighs, a pudgy face and other features that are not nice. And that's not to mention strippers who look worse for having a bad boob job. I really think the bigger-is-better mentality warps the selection, and if it were cast aside, that alone might make a big difference in my view of stippers' looks.
Also, I do focus primarily on the face in evaluating a girl's looks, so I am more readily impressed by what I see in regular bars. However, a face I find hot usually comes with a hot body. I don't often see the wide face/body ratings split that others are so concerned about. I guess I view attractiveness as an overall attribute. And not to get all Wilt Chamberlain on you, but I've seen enough women clothed and unclothed that I feel I can judge their bodies a lot more reliably than some here seem to think can be expected. Of course, it's more fun to judge them naked.
And Book Guy, no matter how sorry the sights you've seen may be, any mid-size city must have some hip clubs that draw in all the hottest pussy in the region to come in dressed to kill on prime nights. There are about ten of them clustered within three blocks of my office. Then, when I walk the mile between work and home, I pass directly through a college campus and close by two or three other colleges. So it's my luck (or curse) that I see babes all the time just going about my business. In your case, you might need to seek out the hot spots with a little more effort than checking out your co-workers and stolling through the downtown mall.
Make any sense at all?
Upon further review (I'm getting mentally ready for football season), it occurs to me that we have to get back to our old discussion about the relative merits of face, body and personality to answer the original question. And while, as you point out, we all probably have minimum standards of acceptability for body, face and personality, those minimums are going to differ a great deal from person to person.
For example, my minimum acceptable hurdle for body is quite a bit higher than my hurdle for either face or personality, because that's what I go to strip clubs for, to see beautiful naked bodies. I can see pretty faces anywhere and I can find nice personalities lots of places. But strip clubs are the only place where I can see a bunch of attractive naked bodies. And I like a girl to appear to be fit, if she doesn't look pretty fit I'm not interested, regardless of how wonderful her personality is or how pretty her face is.
So if we're going to talk about who is more attractive, the average girl on the street or the average stripper, I'm going to place most of my emphasis on the body as my measure of "attractive." And for their ages I think the two groups are about equal, although I will admit that I haven't seen many young non-strippers naked, except at the beach. And there's probably a strong self-selection process there too, eg. only the best bodies are likely to wear revealing bikinis. Which is fine with me.
So bottom line, we don't really have any way of knowing the answer to the question. We must all do much more research.
If we apply those classifications to the general public of women vs. strippers, non-strippers might have a higher portion of cute and beautiful women but maybe strip clubs have a higher percentage of sexy and hot ones. I say that because to me cute and beautiful are mostly natural traits while sexy and hot are more learned behavior, and strippers have more of a need and opportunity to learn that behavior.
Actually I'm not too sure what the difference is between hot and sexy. Maybe sexy implies a little innocence while hot implies more down and dirty? When I think of sexy I think of playful and flirtatious, while the hot girl is much more (or less) than that.
Second, I'd say, I don't initially agree with the received wisdom, that "real life" girls are generally as hot as, if not hotter than, strippers. For me, I just don't ever get the CHANCE TO INTERACT with anyone who is "hot enough" to be a stripper at all.
Let's define terms. I guess I don't mean "hot enough to be a stripper" since there are, sure, plenty of ugly strippers. I guess I mean, not to DESERVE to be a stripper. There are some scary hags who work as strippers, but we all agree that "they shouldn't be stripping," I think. Aside from them, plenty of strippers, I can categorically say, fit within the group of people who are super-hot. And no office workers that I have ever interacted with fit within the group of people who are super-hot. So, my definition of "hot enough to be strippers" is, albeit subjective to me, nevertheless a very high sort of level of appearance that strippers DO attain and civilian women DO NOT.
Add to that, the fact that women can genuinely improve their appearance a few notches through the intelligent application of fashionable hairstyle and makeup, and concealing or revealing clothing. One thing, I'm sure we all know, that strippers have, is a BODY THAT NEED NOT BE CONCEALED. Many many women in the "real world" are quite attractive when viewed in their normal civilian outfit. I would, I think, nevertheless be appalled to have to look at them in a g-string. The minimal level of body-fat necessary to be able to, ahem, "pull off" wearing a g-string and high heels, and nothing else, is extremely rare in our culture. Here in Mississippi, even the college girls have turned to obesity, to the point that a "natural" body of a 15-year-old is not usually attractive to me. A usual 15-year-old, as I remember it from my own High School days, would have been hot enough (simply in terms of the skinniness); but even that has been eclipsed, at least where I live now. Bellies sway below belt buckles, linebacker shoulders carry wide dorsal rafts.
There are also a large number of college girls (for example, on "Wild On" and "Girls Gone Wild") who are hot enough to be strippers. Whether or not they DO strip is a different question. But their age makes them have a girlie, childish, unappealing attitude, for me. In fact, watching "Girls Gone Wild" type shows, whether a half-hour on TV or just as trailers on the internet, fills me with annoyance, FRUSTRATION about the women. There these hot girls are, NOT letting me fondle them, NOT giving me blow-jobs. Why would I want to see that? I don't need a reminder that I'm lonely.
So, all that palaver having been dealt with, I ask myself: why do other dudes think that civilian women are so hot? Are they unable to recognize the bulging fat bellies and thighs, through all those carefully tailored business suits? Do they have an unreasonable sense of charity for women who have "normal" outlooks? Or am I the one who is an idiot, and can't see the hotties walking about me everywhere? Or maybe, am I in a group of people who just aren't all that attractive? Maybe men who live in non-obese places (Iceland?), or in major cities known for their glitz and glamour -- Vegas, LA -- have a leg up on the rest of us. But then again, maybe strippers in those towns are mostly girls who had almost enough looks to become celebrities but didn't, quite, make it; this would again make the strippers super-hot, wouldn't it?
I think back to my recent forays out of the house. I was in downtown Memphis, at the Peabody mall recently, and at the baseball game nearby. I saw some hot women, but each had what I would have to call a "not good enough to be a stripper" body. There were floppy tits (too many kids) and probably C-section scars; there were fat thighs, or half-and-half bodies (you know; the lower half comes from a voluptuous Marilyn type; the upper half comes from a waiflike Twiggy type); and there were a LOT of wedding rings, which for me means, if nothing else, they are not accessible.
No, I guess I COULD try to be the dude who breaks up a marriage, but I don't really see that I'm going to be skilled enough to do that. Heck, I can't even pick up single girls, why would I deliberately laden myself with extra challenges?
And accessibility is what I'm really talking about. The opportunity to talk with them, cuddle with them, then engage in at least SOME kind of intimacy with them.
If I genuinely felt like CIVILIAN non-stripper women who were "hot enough to be strippers" were "accessible" in that way to me, do you think I'd be in a strip club trying to find them? No no no. And I'd rename it, "hot enough to be my girlfriend" rather than "hot enough to be a stripper" and then I'd just be saying something obvious: that many strippers are hot enough to turn me on. If civilian non-stripper women were, as well, hot enough to turn me on, well then why would I ever go to a strip club?
I dunno. I'm sensing I'm in the minority here. I'd be delighted if someone could disabuse me of my misapprehension, by convincing me somehow that the civilian hotties were out there, were accessible to me, and were therefore worth my effort. If I ever learn otherwise, I'll certainly let others know. I grasp at straws. There's one girl, maybe two, around here, who could pull it off by pullin' it off. But remember that there's the definite possibility she's hiding something. I've seen the fattie strippers leave the club in their civilian outfits and I've been stunned by how attractive they suddenly became, their giant bellies swathed in dangling patches of blouse, their waggling asses, formerly so cellulite you could light a match on them, now packed tight into now-appealing jeans. "Thank goodness I didn't meet her at a dance club and take her home!" I think to myself, "What a come-uppance it would have been when I finally got her naked!" I see so many potentially hot civilian girls, and I realize that for every one, that come-uppance is a possibility.
I've never really approached the boy-girl game from a sense of plenty; the pickins' is slim and that very much disappoints me. In fact, I have spent times in my life resentful of women who "allow" themselves to gain weight or get unattractive out of my own selfish sense, that I ought to have a right to more viable dating options and they were proactively limiting my options. I certainly can't really defend that position ethically or even logically, but it does sometimes sneak in to my thinking by the back door and sit around for a while before I try to purge it again.
Stippers? Well, the ones who are "hot enough to be strippers" are, redundantly, hot enough. There are some ugly ones, let's just forget about them. But the others, the "real" ones? They're hotter than any of the civilian girls I've ever met. That, or I haven't seen the strippers in the cold harsh light of day. But I remind the board, that they haven't seen the civvies naked either.
I've seen a few very pretty strippers. However I've seen quite a number of very pretty girls not working in a strip club.
I agree that strippers are pretty average for their age group. I've seen plenty of both strippers and (presumably) non-strippers who were really hot and plenty of both who weren't. But then I only really look at the good looking ones in either group, and it's more fun to look at them when they are naked. So I generally prefer to look at strippers. I think it's harder (no pun intended) for a girl to look good naked than with clothes on.
Chandler, when you talk about strippers being "accessible" as compared to women one meets in other venues, I read "accessible" as "naked."
They would also have worse personalities, be below average intelligence, have less education, more psychological issues, more drug problems, have far less class, and have worse ethics. But we are getting a bit sidetrack if you want to go down that road.
It's strange to me, the difference. You can see SO many attractive women merely by looking around and walking about a big city or by looking around at a strip club. (By the way, we don't have a downtown mall here. We basically don't have a mall here. We certainly don't have ten clubs. We used to have one, but it just closed. Maybe that's the root of my problem.) But then, when you mentally consider your own extended group of acquaintances, colleagues, and other "links" that would legitimately provide for the opportunity of dating, you end up with such a poor selection. There are hot women who EXIST, sure, but what good does it do us to know about them when we don't actually know them as friends, dating partners? What's the POINT of simply SEEING them?
That's what my situation is like. I'll agree, that you can look around on the sidewalks of a major city and see attractive women. Whether or not the total mean distribution with a standard deviation from the upper percentiles compares favorably to the same sample taken from strip clubs, I guess we can continue to argue. But I don't KNOW the hot women who walk along the sidewalks. Nor do my friends. Nor do my friends friends. I tried to work it out, in a previous thread: I have actually spoken, in a conversation, outside of my fantasies and dreams and not in a strip club, with six or fewer "hot enough" women in my life. "Hot enough" that I would want them to be my girlfriend. Six, I think, outside of strip clubs.
I guess that's my only point, that strip clubs give me ACCESS to women who are hot enough. I don't believe for a minute that just "getting out there" onto the sidewalks of a bigger city would change my perception of this situation. I've lived in bigger cities, and although I don't live in one right now (that will be changing! I hope!), I never experienced "ready access" to ANY female who was "hot enough" EVER. Why would that change magically? How many of you believe that merely by asking a hot woman out, you'll get a date with her? That's never happened for me. In fact, I'd go so far as to say, that exactly the thing which prevents women from "ending up" dating me, is the very fact that I ASK. If I play it "cool" (somehow. I don't know how) then it might "just happen," but if I ASK, I get a "no."
Maybe I just "ain't got game." If I did, I'd think that strip clubs were a waste of time because there were women who were just as hot, but a lot less expensive, and probably a lot more emotionally balanced, waiting for me at one of the ten dance clubs next door to my apartment. I guess, if I had Armani suits, Ferrari cars, free time, a cool glib gift of the gab, and several rental properties that gave me passive income, maybe I'd believe that options in real life existed.
I don't currently believe that the options do for me, or for MOST men. Otherwise strip clubs wouldn't make money. Most men who patronize clubs agree with me -- that is THE ONLY PLACE to get access to women who are hot enough.
And I don't mean, perfect women. I only mean, HOT ENOUGH. Bare minimum. Boy, I've already lowered my standards a LOT from back when I was in High School. I'll settle for someone who isn't obese, and who knows not to pick her nose in public. I don't meet those humans in real life. I only meet them in strip clubs.