Strip club permissiveness

I have never sought out nor seen sex in a club. The impression I got from here was that you have to seek out specific clubs in Detriot, Texas, City of Industry, etc if that's what you want.

In my experience, the level of sexual activity in clubs has increased greatly. I remember going to clubs in Detroit 35 years ago just to see girls take off their tops on stage. No touching, no private rooms. Later I went to Windsor, Canada, to watch fully nude dances, but again no contact was allowed and no private rooms were available. There was no place to have sex in these clubs. It seems to me that things did not begin to loosen up until after 2000.

Back in the old days, you probably could have found sex in clubs in some areas of Detroit, but I would have been afraid to go to those clubs. I have always liked upscale clubs with beautiful women, and such clubs did not provide sex back in the day.

Of course, I did not become a strip club regular until a few years ago. In the past, regulars probably could have hooked up OTC with their favorite dancers just as they do today.

First off, if you started going to clubs about 10 years ago, there is probably no disagreement here - until we know your beginning point, its kind of hard to compare. that said, jacklash has an important point, a lot of places in the 80's and early 90's did not have private sections or even offer lap dances. "Mileage" was non-existant and FS would have to be offsite.

The other possiblity is that you have just been in the right place at the right time. I have been clubbing about 20 years with a lot of travel involved. I have seen communities go from wild to mild, vice versa, and back again in a matter of months. Again, though, the wild did not really appear until turn of the century in most of the places i went to.

here in columbus things have gone downhill over the past few years unfortunately. Thankfully Detroit is only a few hours away.

jack: But is it in fact the level itself that changed, or your perception of the level. I believe it to be the latter, for the reasons stated.

thick: The starting point for me was 1978. It was my 17th birthday, and some friends decided to take me to Fort Erie, which is where the full nudity was at that time (and the WNY clubs were religiously carding everyone for some reason I don't remember). The cheating girlfriend they were attempting to purge from my awareness wasn't even a fleeting memory after the second round with the very tight little Vietnamese girl who generously (for a very reasonable donation, according to the friends who paid it) offered to make me forget her. The following year, when I turned 18 (yes, this was before the drinking age was raised to 21, at least in NY), the WNY clubs turned out to be just as debauched, and in roughly the same ratio, as the ones I go to here in Louisville now.

"Right place at the right time"? Maybe so, but that means that pretty much every place I've been has been the right place. Admittedly, I'm not as well traveled as some here, but the east coast from NY to NC saw a lot of traffic from me for a number of years, and Kansas and Missouri were my home for several more before I moved here.

I have been visiting clubs since the late 80's, and in my experience there are far more liberal rules, laws, and interpretations of such over the past 5 years, especially. I've been to clubs all across the USA, most every top club on this site, and I think things are definitely trending toward a more enjoyable " user experience " for us.

Thank you, whomever is responsible for this!

I do not have george's experience since I have been at this hobby for barely a year but it has been a very active year and I can see the basis for george's thesis. I started as a wide-eyed oaf amazed at what was happening in the US and Toronto clubs I first visited and then came back to the reality of lame Alberta and Vancouver clubs where I live most of the year. But even here I soon became able to find the OTC services that I have come to enjoy on a pretty regular basis.

I am thinking that if it is so easy to arrange OTC in 100% clean clubs in 2010/2011, it must have been just as easy to arrange 10, 20, 30 years ago. This easy availability of sex via SCs did not just happen because my money and I appeared on the scene a year ago.

As a 25 year veteran of Detroit clubs, I have observed that mileage and extras did not become routinely available until 2000. Before that everything was strictly regulated and private VIP rooms were rarely available. Things changed with the new millenium.

Age has a little to do with it. When I was younger, being a regular allowed me to hook up with dancers for casual dating and sex because of similar ages. Now that I am in my early 50's, the outing is for one time, and usually has a fee.

I agree with George in one aspect. I do think that there is a preception that Stripclubs are more permissive in a general way. I also agree that there have always been ways to have sex with dancers. But I also believe girls today are more sexually liberal than 20 years ago.

I can remember in High School begging girls to have oral sex with me. Now oral sex isn't even considered sex by most. I can remember dancers 15 years ago never offering me extras, now they routinely offer extras. But I am older and bolder too. So I lean towards the idea that sex is more open and available, and now I take advantage of it when I can.

Meh...

There's several clubs in Topeka, Kansas which have been in town for more than 50 years. Some have moved around, but one of them is apparently still in its original building. There are a few little shacks behind the club which were once used for dancers having sex with customers.

My perception is that the fact that it was going down used to be more of an 'out-in-the-open' thing. The line between brothels and strip clubs was not very clear.

Then strip clubs became a more mainstream/accepted form of business. Now there are many, many clubs and they kind of fill in the gap between brothel and regular bar.

If you can fuck them without fear of being kicked out it's permissive

Thirty one years ago, when I first started going, clubs didn't have private areas. With that said, twenty some years ago, in a non SC environment, I overheard a stripper tell another female that she went to a hotel to meet a customer. In 1984 bucks, the amount was something over a thousand bucks. How much is that in today's bucks ?

If I got the formula right, based on the consumer price index change from March of 1984 to March of 2011, you would need approximately $2,180 in 2011 to buy the same goods and services that you could have bought in 1984 for $1,000.

As an additional clarification, the overall ratio of ITC to OTC encounters has decreased for me since I started. Most were in the club when I was younger, most are outside the club now. I'll agree that the incidence of dedicated rooms for VIP style experiences have increased over the years, but there have always been things like dressing rooms and other non-public areas in most clubs.

This marked difference between my experience and most other posters is what led to my supposition that it's a difference in perception, rather than one of reality.

I suppose it's also possible that I've just been extremely lucky, but given some aspects of the rest of my life, I'd have to say that's probably not the case.

I sorta perceive this as a spreading phenomenon. In the early 1990s, I think it started in some cities -- Toronto, Tampa, San Francisco, for examples -- and then as girls and / or patrons and / or the culture spread, it has ended up in a lot of other cities, and some of the newer cities have now taken over the mantle as top-contact cities -- Detroit, Houston (until recently), etc.

I think there are several factors weighing in, but one big one that hasn't been suggested yet is the internet. Basically, resources like TUSCL and (the late lamented) Can-Best strip club reviews, led men to understand the following: "Hey, somewhere else on the continent, there's a chick giving head in a strip club. But at this strip club, even according to a bunch of other guys, the chicks don't give head." From that came the inevitable next conclusion, "I'm going to that other strip club to see if I can get a chick to give me head." And then clubs AND THEIR GIRLS could draw adequate customers only if comparable levels of service were to be offered.

I recall trying to go to strip clubs, and trying to find escorts (like, for full-service; not some damn Ford automobile, doh!), before the internet.

The 80s were tricky. For escorts, in the 1980s you had the yellow pages for the escorts, but that was hit-or-miss and, if you didn't know some rich guys who had already had a few successes with their own swings at the hit-or-miss, then you didn't know what you were going to get into. Or you could take your risks with the street-walker scene, which, in some cities, was vibrant and kinda "normal" (f.e. New York City, Hollywood Blvd. in LA), whereas in several other cities it was just a spinoff of the "pimps 'n' ho's" movement and crack-cocaine addiction in the inner city, therefore dangerous for disease-transmission and for gunfire-risk, and a disgusting experience even if you did find something viable. And for strip-clubs, you had a bunch of cities that were famous for what they had -- Tampa, Vegas, a couple of other tourist destinations -- but those were not necessarily living up to the old vibe. New Orleans, for example, was famous for having a lot of "sin city" but really the 80s were a very clean, drab, and controlloed period for NOLa's strip-clubbing scene. The 1984 World's Fair in the summer had meant that by December 1983 everything "raunchy" had been shut down, and the economic crises of NOLa in the late 1970s (when all the oil industry escaped for offshore tax havens, or for the more friendly jurisdictions of the Texas rather than Louisiana legislature) meant nothing but trashy-trash was going on. Nobody really "knew" what was or wasn't going on anywhere. You couldn't pass safe information, you had no medium for sharing information, etc.. It was much more a seller's market for sex-services; consequently, strip-clubbing was free to remain outside of the sex-services market, for most purposes, with a few variances here or there.

Then in the 1990s, the internet slowly trickled its influence into the whole mix. I lived in Toronto at a time when the internet was really nothing but sex-services and some weird dudes who knew how to run multi-user dungeon programs (which were, in their own right, often just fronts for that other kind of sex-service, masturbation-games over the internet). I recall how slowly the damned pictures would load up on my 26K modem, driving me insanely bat-shit CRAZY as slowly from the top of the picture the girl's hair would appear; then eyes; then nose; and me waiting waiting waiting to see if she was a fattie or a hottie. Canadian internet activity was early, thanks partly to the fact that escorts are more legal (well, uh, "quasi-legal") up there; and thanks partly to the higher percentage of early "wired" families and homes, since the nation was essentially just like the USA except without the USA's lower and upper classes. Strip clubs in Toronto in the 1990s were a boom time for sexual and semi-sexual services, including (but never limited to) the vaunted "lap dance." I think Tampa experienced the same thing. We all had to start defining what the hell a "lap dance" was or wasn't; and less-informed customers and other people are still up in the air about whether or not a certain activity (groping the willie through the clothing without removing or opening any clothing, for example) is to be considered an "extra" for a "required" (and therefore expected) portion of a lapper.

So, I personally remember escort and strip-club web pages popping up as part of the growth of the internet. And I can say from my experience, anecdotally at least, that the rise of these sorts of web pages does also historically parallel, to a good degree, the rise of sexual and semi-sexual services in strip-clubs.

Fascinating. Do you all really think that much about all this? lol

GMD was on the right track for a while with his statement that sites such as TUSCL made it easier to find clubs where sex (or at least higher mileage) might be obtained...and that makes the perception seem greater. Years ago, I studied the reviews and comments that were being made on ASS-C, and later on TUSCL, to determine which clubs in the US were more likely to provide higher mileage. ITC-FS was not usually discussed except in a review about MBOT or MSC.

The perception v. reality distinction makes for a nice brain teaser, but the real test is if you are having sex at a club...then it is reality. You could spend a lot of time and money combing through clubs to find ITC-FS, which supports "chasing the perception" idea. Sites such as TUSCL can indeed reduce the time and money wasted trying to find reality.

My experience indicates that sex can be had in a great many more clubs than such service is alluded to in TUSCL reviews. The price becomes a serious issue at some clubs, as such pricing might lead one to conclude that sex is really not available at that club because no one (well, very few) would pay that much for it. So, it gets down to some girls will do anything for enough money.

Very circular.

I agree with MMDV, that sexual services are often more available than could be confirmed from the usual internet finding aids. For most guys, if the negotiation proceeds, it will eventually come down to a question simply of money -- how much she wants him to spend for how much she is willing to perform; versus, whether or not he thinks it's worth it.

But there's an interesting ancillary development going on, here, as well, which actually runs counter to intuituion (well, counter to MY intuition). For many girls, there's a perverse reverse-incentive to NOT give in to a guy's request for sexual services, regardless of price, and regardless of the laxity or restrictiveness of the club. The incentive is, that generally a girl suspects that guys chase after NEW girls. So, by not "putting out" early, the girl gets more lap-dance opportunities. By fucking right away, the girl only gets one shot at that guy, and then has ruined any future profit she might have gotten from him.

Thus, frustrating as it may be, girls are actually motivated to "resist" being "too easy," even when they're girls who fuck for money. Damn it all ...

BookGuy: I'm sure that attitude is out there, but many of the girls who are inclined to do extra, ITC or OTC, don't seem to be willing, or able, to think that far ahead, at least not in the face of competition from the girls who'll have your pants down when you're half way to the back room. They need the money now, for whatever reason, and don't seem to want to take the chance that you'll spend it on somebody else.

I too have been going to club since the early 1980's. Sex, in any form was not happening, at least for me. Hell, I never even got to fondle tits until Tampa in the mid 90's. Now I can walk into a suburb Detroit club and have a blow job (or more) within 10 minutes. Don't have to be a regular. Don't have to develop any trust.

Maybe sex did happen 20 years ago. But for guys like me, maybe lacking good looks, or great conversational skills, it was just a myth. Now I'm even older and uglier and I can get it for a C note. So I don't know how one can say it's not vastly more permissive.

I think it's mostly the combination of the economy deteriorating, the hip-hopification of America, and the least savvy whale/PL/RIL already having been played for all they were worth.

I would like think that us customers learned along the way too, and as time progressed became more than a match versus the other side. Certainly watching the attitudes on this board evolve over the years to the point where few now disagree my own stance (whereas before I would be attacked by an army of ass-kissers) indicates that this is so.

Excellent point, Georgemicrodong. I think what you've described with your most recent post, is the all-important concept of competition. :) All it really takes, whether with civilians or with pay-for-play girls, is to treat 'em like they're in plentiful rather than short supply. If we dudes can just get into the head-space that "there's plenty of other good pussy out there" and then betray that knowledge in our behavior, our demeanor, and our choices, the people from whom we want something (we want pussy-access!) will intrinsically tend toward behavior that benefits us more.

It's not so complicated to describe or understand. :) But it's not very easy to bring about or enforce!

Here might be an interesting old thread for those in the more recent thread about the state of the industry.

As a practical matter, the proper question is ask is whether you can get a Happy Jack / Billy Jean / Frank Sinatra in a strip club that's somehow better than the one you could get on the stroll/blade/track or from an escort. I've only been offered FS by dancers who were wasted and/or unhealthy looking. And since many dancers are offended when asked for extras, seems better to look for that from an escort.

@ilbbaicnl, I'm being a hypocrite but I'd never prowl the blade for sex (just too sketchy, feels like taking advantage of the lowest of the low) and escorts feel like another step in moral degeneration (I know, I know), not to mention all the things that can go wrong with them (stings, robbery, blackmail, ROBs).

ITC in strip clubs sanitize it. Girls have to at least be somewhat able to hold it together, you get to see and talk to a girl before you commit, management has a vested interest in making sure you're satisfied and coming back (in exchange for a cut) and you're probably less likely to get caught because I figure city hall/the cops are on the take.

I'm yet to meet a girl that was overly offended when I asked about extras, though normally I ask in a roundabout way "what do you do in the VIP." They might not give a straight answer, but if they don't do extras, they'll usually be upfront about that.

I have noticed that extras menus have gotten a lot more restrictive and expensive. Like at Desire Providence (my "home club") pre-pandemic most girls did FS for $200. Now, a few will do that, but now that only gets you a handjob and often a reluctant one. Sounds like at other places, Bidenflation (or perhaps pandemicflation) has set in as well.

After my next FKK adventure, I'm thinking about a break from clubbing. I crave the dirty, subversive feeling of it, maybe it's subconscious punishment in my fucked up head. Once it becomes mundane, it becomes boring.

^ Saturday was the first time I noticed a decrease in price at Desires. God has gifted us a Pats game in Frankfurt in November.

@ilbbaicnl, On average, my strip club ITC/OTC activities have been far superior to any provided by an escort. I've only gone street hunting a couple of times, and it was nerve-wracking enough that I haven't tried it in a couple of decades or more.

@gmd who brings up extras first, you or her?

I don't believe that dancers should be offended if you ask for extras, unless you're in a very low mileage club full of Russian models. Most strippers know it comes with the territory. I've always been blunt about what I want from a girl I'm interested in. Most times, she will either say "No I don't do that" or "Take me to VIP to find out". The VIP option could mean 2 things: She doesn't do extras and is just trying to fleece you, or she does do extras but doesn't fully trust you for OTC. VIP room is a safe place where she can "test the waters". But of course the best outcome is when they say "Absolutely, when can you pick me up?"

@ilbbaicnl: "who brings up extras first, you or her?"

Usually me.

@gmd so no problems with welching? Even if you withhold the agreed tip, you're still out the cost of VIP, no?

“God has gifted us a Pats game in Frankfurt in November”

I know where Robert Kraft will be.

@mark, Kraft could afford any call girl he wants and still went for a cheap rub and tug.

Just because you can afford Masa doesn't mean you won't occasionally crave Wendy's.

Pats are the home team so its 5 days in Germany with football and FKK clubs.

ilbbaicnl: "so no problems with welching? Even if you withhold the agreed tip, you're still out the cost of VIP, no?"

Occasionally. But one gets better at detecting the ones likely to be welchers, or one doesn't last long. I've walked out of VIP disappointed before, and will no doubt do it again.