"I'm a Stripper not a Whore"

Wasn't it George Carlin who is said to have said something on the order of "if buying things is legal and selling things is legal and sex is legal, why isn't buying and selling sex legal?"

I know I don't have that exactly right, but that's pretty much how I feel about. Yes, it's self serving, but no less rational for all that.

@ georgmicrodong

This is from wikipedia on George Carlin:

"I don't understand why prostitution is illegal. Selling is legal. Fucking is legal. Why isn't selling fucking legal? You know, why should it be illegal to sell something that's perfectly legal to give away? I can't follow the logic on that one at all! Of all the things you can do, giving someone an orgasm is hardly the worst thing in the world."

No one here is going to understand why dancers hate whores, because, as a man and as a patron, you're all on the receiving end (pun intended) of the deal! Having a girl who gives extras in a club is the same as having someone in your place of business who robs the till/safe.

It's basic thievery. And we legitimate dancers have every right to judge her, call her out, and beat her ass for taking money from us (even though I myself don't fight).

I can see the woman's point, actually. she's letting you look at her, maybe touch her, but that's the limit of what she's willing to do/comfortable with. she's not selling you the use of her body for your pleasure. even though you might get much the same stimulation from what she does for you, it's not sex. she draws the line and expects you to understand it.

@F_D: That still assumes a lot of things, like that all of the guys would have been there if it was not on the menu, that the ones who would have been there anyway would have spent the same amount of money on non-contact sports, etc. I don't think that most guys blow large sums of money in a downscale club without some very special reason, but this is covered ground for us and I won't rehash it here.

I will agree that, on any given night, you could have a pick-off with a guy who might have spread some money around to some of the girls but instead spends a lot on one when he learns what she will do. I still don't believe that he would have spent it all anyway, but it probably has some income affect on the other dancers.

In the marketplace, this is what we call a competitive advantage ;) There are, of course, dancers who make money with other competitive advantages (uber hot, charming and connective personality), but this is certainly one strong one.

I personally don't like to handle my business (whatever that may be) in one of these clubs anyway, but there it is. My views on the matter can be found in my first posted article, but I would guess that you would not find that much better.

REMEMBER AS ALWAYS THAT THI IS A FICTIONAL PORTRAYAL PROVIDED FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES AND NOTHING HEREIN REPRESENTS THE ACTIVITIES OF THE AUTHOR.

re many that do.

@f_d, I cannot agree with your statement that "having a girl who gives extras in a club is the same as having someone in your place of business who robs the till/safe."

That other girl who does more is providing something for which others are willing to pay, so she's not robbing the safe. What she is providing is across a certain boundary, so judge all you like, but your analogy is completely wrong.

And she has nothing to do with your inability to make money, if that were the case, so to project responsibility on her as your statements do is also wrong.

fetish said: "It's basic thievery. And we legitimate dancers have every right to judge her, call her out, and beat her ass for taking money from us"

Dudester says: "I was once a dance instructor. People paid to learn dance steps from me. Never once did I have to take my clothes off to sell my product. If I want to see a legitimate dancer, I'll see a show like Cats, Chicago, or Chorus Line. For that performance, I'll pay 25 to 75 bucks.

When I'm paying 20 bucks a song (roughly 300 an hour), I'm paying escort rates. For escort rates, I'm going to get more than an air dance, or a brief accidental touch of the titties. I'm going to get DATY and/or FS.

If fetish considers herself a "legitimate dancer", she should audition for Cats, Chicago, or Chorus Line, and forget about selling air dances. Tell you what fetish, just for fun, let's both audition. Let's see who's got better technique."

I have a theory that this idiot "fetish_dancer" is merely MisterGay trolling around under a different alias and posing as a girl. Nothing "she" says makes the least bit of sense.

There certainly is a difference....a whore will perform any sexual act for money.

Strippers do not always do this.....

Just to take the whore analogy a bit further...

Should bikini dancers call nude or topless dancers whores and thieves?

Should civilian women call all dancers whores/thieves because they take money from their men that the men would have spent on them?

Its all a matter of perspective. We each do what we are comfortable with and I think that we should let others do the same without judging. If you don't like giving extras, don't. But don't complain about those that do.

i've been told this several times by dancers when asking for OTC. of course, this is right after i have just sucked her tits and fingered her pussy in the VIP room for a $100 !!!

"Whore" is an epithet, an insult. "Dancer", "Stripper" is a job. Most dancers' dislike of "whores" stems from self-defence, I would imagine.

Re society as a whole, don't we now have a different perspective on defining sex and sex for hire? It's a contextual one based on location, proposition or lack thereof, intercourse or oral, the list goes on. You could call it the Clinton Effect, but it didn't start with the Clinton/Lewinsky affair, that just mainstreamed the point.

Most of us (not all) patrons make the distinction, we want to make the distinction. So do the dancers.

@rickdugan: You're right, but the standard remains that dancers do not like whores. I actually went over to stripperweb recently and read a thread where this girl said she was wanting to dance in Texas, and she didn't mind giving HJs. Well, the whole board went up in flames over it.
Needless to say, she was...dissuaded. No matter if the money remains the same (which I don't agree with, and we discussed this, :D) the fact of the matter is: dancers hate whores.

@how: Most of this was already covered in my 'extras' thread, but for the sake of argument, I'll put it here. Suppose three guys, each with $500 in their pockets, enter a SC. If two of them spend their entire amount of cash on an extra in the VIP room, the rest of us are out $1000, right? I know that doesn't mean that $1000 would have all necessarily been spent in the SC, but a little of it had the potential to get around, rather than all ending up in the hands of a whore.

@Dudester: And I performed modern dance under the tutelage of a professional dance instructor. CATS isn't running anymore - they stopped that production in 2000 - but oh! if they were, I would take you up on that offer in a heartbeat. As far as Chicago and Chorus Line go, I really don't know when/where they're touring. But if they ever come near me, sure :)

@Dougster: Maybe you should attempt to exercise a bit of literary wit and READ my posts, rather than assume I'm a dude. Funny how that's the first thing that comes to your mind...

@Prim0: The judgmental attitude of legitimate dancers toward whores is valid. When you agree to perform extras, all you're saying is you're incapable of entertaining any other way. Therefore, leave the club, which is a place of entertainment, and join backpage.com or something, where your varied "talents" can be put to better use.

@f_d, your logic does not have any merit. If I choose to buy dinner at "Texas Roadhouse," then every other restaurant lost the opportunity to have that money. But so what? The proprietor of "Texas Roadhouse" did not rob those other restaurants. Nor did any extras-providing dancer rob you when a guy chooses her over you...

@f_d, Believe me when I say that the girl that was supposedly dissuaded is, or will likely at some point be, giving those HJs.

There is a certain hypocrisy when it comes to the offering of special services by dancers. I have seen a girl turn to a dancer friend, talk about a third girl being a whore, and later negotiate an OTC session. In most clubs it is not openly tolerated (by the club or the girls) but in many it is quitely done, often through OTC arrangements. In most clubs a girl cannot walk out with a "patron" but there are many girls coming out of many clubs at night that end up in guys' cars or in cabs, normally to be taken to a hotel.

Now of course, you could argue that this also hurts the "good" girls, becuase why would he blow (part) of his wad in the club when he can use it to blow his load later? Hard point to argue with, but I don't make the world I just live in it ;)

And I hear you on your moral conviction, though I suppose it is easy for a young hobbyist who uses this as a part time gig to be critical. Many of the girls that engage in outside activities have kids to feed, house and clothe, often with no daddy around. While they could certainly find another less lucrative way to survive, they make tough choices in order to provide their children with more than they would have had otherwise.

"@Dougster: Maybe you should attempt to exercise a bit of literary wit and READ my posts, rather than assume I'm a dude. Funny how that's the first thing that comes to your mind"

That's because he's our resident Internet Troll...just ignore him...

"I'm a stripper, not a whore". "Go get a pimp and stand on street corner".
Those phrases may become less relevant, in that the lines between the 2 are getting more blurred. I can see the business model (unofficial, at least ) of stripclub evolving in much the same manner as there are virtually few gas stations around anymore that "just sell gas" (and maybe a few sodas & snacks). Just about every gas station is a hybrid gas station/convenience store. Caters to "1 stop shopping" that so many time-strapped customers desire. Shoot, some "gas stations" have Subways or Burger King/White Castles in same "building". Are they taking business away from adjacent Diner or Waffle House? I've not seen those places up in arms over gas station setup. Absent the Subway or Burger joint, driver would have just driven to destination starved.

So, an "extras inclined" customer isn't going to spend $500 on "1 way lite" dances. But, as a race car driver may not want to drive balls out all the time, but enjoy a good sedan drive, so it goes with strip club customers. Just don't expect them to pay Corvette $$ on a Malibu.

@how: My argument has as much merit as you believe yours does.

Your analogy doesn't make sense. If you take your business to the Texas Roadhouse rather than...the Outback Steakhouse, then yes, they've lost your personal business. But do you see how the proprietor does not fit into this? The proprietor of either restaurant is going to make money no matter what, the same as a SC owner.

It will matter to a waitress at the Outback Steakhouse if you choose to take your business to the Texas Roadhouse, because she PERSONALLY would not get to serve you, and therefore would lose money. It becomes much more personal in a SC. But let's go back to the waitress, and waitressing, which I have done. A restaurant is divided into sections, each of which is allotted to each waitress. Let's say Waitress A decides to take a table in Waitress B's section. Waitress B is not only ticked off, she's just lost a tip. But the balance here is that Waitress A can be fired for stealing tables.

In a SC, there is no such balance. We are all vying for customers; every patron who walks in the door has the potential to give money to ANY of us. Therefore, when you have a dancer willing to whore herself out, a chance that would be leapt at by a patron, the rest of us have just been robbed. Both of money and also of the POTENTIAL to make money. Get it? :P

@rickdugan: I agree. I know there's a lot of the "you do what you have to do" mentality among dancers, and I know there's a lot of OTC activity. And the point you made about this being a part time gig for me and maybe not for others is valid, too. The thing is, if I'm hard up for money, I wouldn't do this, but that's just me.

Before I became a broker, I struggled a bit to make ends meet, and so I waitressed. What these girls don't understand is, in a shitty economy, the hospitality business booms! I worked in a grocery store a couple of years ago, and we were laying people off right and left. Being one of the lowest on the totem pole, I was lucky to keep my job. But when I began to waitress, I realized that there are so many more people willing to go to a restaurant than grocery shop - I have no idea why. Makes no sense to me, but I guess it flies.

/off topic, sorry

@MisterGuy: Got it.

@minnow: I like the car analogy; it made sense and it amused me :D I dunno what kind of clubs you frequent, but most of the middle-class type clubs I dance at allow two-way touching, and I don't mind it; I just have boundaries. To me, a guy paying for a VIP should be allowed to touch, while being respectful.

Also, if you don't mind, what do you do for a living? I have an analogy for you, based on your answer.

It's a thin line that divides the two 'categories'. Some would say that giving a guy a LD is a sexual service, and thereby the girl is prostituting herself, other would argue that a girl has to do BJ's or FS to fall into that category. It's all subjective and there are no absolutes.

f_d said, "In a SC, there is no such balance. We are all vying for customers; every patron who walks in the door has the potential to give money to ANY of us. Therefore, when you have a dancer willing to whore herself out, a chance that would be leapt at by a patron, the rest of us have just been robbed. Both of money and also of the POTENTIAL to make money."

True, until you claim to have been robbed. You're "vying for money," she's "vying for money." If you have what someone is willing to give you money for, you can get some money. If not, not. No one has robbed you just because you don't make all the money that you see potentially out there...

@how: It IS robbery, no matter how much you say it isn't.

Anyone who uses illegal leverage to make more money than her legitimate counterparts is a whore and needs to relocate herself to a venue more conducive to whores. Like the streetcorner. :/

The dancers who don't do extras resent the extras gals. This is especially true on sites like EDN.

At a club where I am VIP, probably 75% of the gals do extras. I have done them in CR and the upstarirs VIP. Before taking one to VIP I will ask if she likes to play. If yes will negotiate service before going up to VIP. I frankly don't see how non extras gals expect to really make it at this club. They also have competetion from backpage call girls who here in Houston are doing sex for $80. FS for me at this club has ranged between $100 to $300.

At PHC which is not as extras friendly club I may take 2 dances ($40) but thats it. I had a backpage call girl the other day for $67. Tomorrow I am having a stripper I have been doing 2 yr for $200. She is getting married on Saturday and has agreed to 3 sessions next week in a row all at $100 each.

I can understand the non extras gal point of view but taking it out on customers like I have seen them do on SW is not fair. I am a man with a strong sex drive and need relief and if I can get BJ / pussy for $150 in a SC well I won't be spending $100 on dances. If prostitution were legalized it probably would put many SC's out of business.

I have been a Player for sometime enjoying both extras and non extras gals. The stripper I am seeing at motel is very good at what she does in giving me FS. She has her own car, is drug free, and S/O unaware of her escort work. POP has averaged $158 with her.

I would never pay a dancer for an air dance as I want to feel the girl. When I take dances with strippers I will usually try to get phone number and engage them in convo to explore if they work otc. Sometimes I may even make them an offer. Read my articles on Meeting a Stripper OTC and Dealing with Dancer Drama.

Jesus fucking christ.

Payer11: "If prostitution were legalized it probably would put many SC's out of business"

Hard to say. Nevada has both many strip clubs and legalized prostitution. Sometimes in the same county. Not clear to me what the net effect would be.

Payer11: "is drug free"

And how do you know this Payer11? Because she told. Most customers are clueless about whether their "girl" is doing drugs or not, much less any other motivations for being a whore.

@f_d

i am really having a hard time trying to follow your logic on now a girl
that go the "extra" mile is robbing you or any other non "extra" girl.

you are forgetting the one key element in this case... its called choice
and we as humans are all free to make them, if i choose to get "extras"
then i will go to the girl that gives "extras" its that simple.

ok you have your rights and opinions to not like a whore but heres the
thing, a whore on a street is a prostitute, a whore that comes to you via
phone call is a "booty call"(free sex)or an "escort"(paid sex)and a whore
in a strip club is simply known as a "stripper"

now you are thinking why would i say some dumb shit like that?

well heres my logic,

a stripper that will do "extras" if the money is good will not say shes
a whore, she will simply say shes a stripper, a stripper that wont do
anything other than dance is not a stripper and she wont say she is one, she will simply say shes an "exotic dancer"

i meant to say how instead of now

Redefining established terms to "win a debate" is pointless. f_d feels resentment towards those who make more than she, and there is nothing unusual about that. So be it.

If a dancer makes less money than another dancer, she will ALWAYS think the second dancer is a "whore". I heard it from three different dancers on Wednesday night. Funny thing is, they all call each other whores, so that would mean they're ALL performing extras.

Are extras necessry to make good money in a SC? Not at all. I've seen dancers who make good money without doing them. But those dancers are either super attractive, really good dancers, or both. Dancers who resent the ones who do extras just need to step up their game. I know a dancer who contantly complains to me that she's not making enough, but she sits on her ass when she's not onstage, and she's lacking in attractiveness. Needs a gym.

I expected this topic to generate a little interest, but wow.

f_d, I still think you are in some morally ambiguous territory, but can see both sides of this. I should note that, in some countries and even a few states, the act of showing nipple and/or vagina can itself be illegal, while in many coutries and one state prositution is legal, so the legal lines blur a lot from from place to place, even in the U.S., but I can nonetheless understand concens about the legal aspect.

Having said that, I do not think that your true issues with it are concerns over legality, but rather morality. We could argue all day whether a girl who sells the theory of sex is morally justified to criticize the girl who takes it the next step and sells the reality, but I think that we will have to agree to disagree on that.

What I will say is that there is a certain perverse logic in a stripper selling sex out the back door (or in some instances inside) of a club. Not only is the stage a great place to "advertise" the wares, but a club is a natural congregating point for guys interested in those types of servicese. She also has the chance to screen him (and he her) before it goes any further. Finally, she has a chance to earn income from the club on nights that might otherwise be slow in the "special services" category, which I am told can be a hit or miss business with lots of competing adds on the same platform.

londonguy: I trust you're aware of the self-contradiction in the phrase "there are no absolutes" and are only using it as a literary point maker, rather than an assertion of truth? :)

Obviously the girls who do 'extras' are going home with more money. This of course results in jealousy and resentment as it puts pressure on them to offer extras too.

But 'stealing'? Not by any definition that I can come up with. They are offering a higher value service. Now maybe if you presume that the same number of guys would show up with the same quantity of money to spend whether or not they expected to get a sex act you might have the start of a rationale, but honestly guys bring more money if they think that it can get them more.

On the other hand, in my local clubs it is generally presumed that every girl can be negotiated for extras in the VIP room. It is just a question of how much for a particular act and particular girl. Nobody would call the girls whores though, it is just mean.

A lot of strippers I have seen don't really know how to dance..just shake their ass and show off their tits. And then in the private dance area it is a bump n grind dance.

If a dancer has good dancing skills then yeah it might be fun to watch her dance, but as long as she is putting out pathetic dance moves I'll settle for getting extras instead.

This is from Columbus, OH so yeah maybe other cities have professional dancers working.

LOL@Player11

It looks like your overwhelmingly hardcore logic carried the day. Market forces...

I am starting to feel bad for fetish_dancer. She has been a bit ganged up on (unintentionally by me too) but we need to remember that she is young and a bit naive about some of the realities.

In the clubs with uber hot girls, there are often high percentages that do not cross that line, but still earn good $$$. Those clubs tend to have a lot of fresh customer inflow, some just looking to gain some attention from hot, naked girls. With the guys that do try for more, there are some girls who become masters of the art of the multi-week stringalong, milking the cow dry (sometimes for many hundreds or thousands) by leading him to hope while (of course) never delivering.

If you are are working in a mid-tier club, then obviously you need you offer something the guy can't get at the club with the uber hotties. I have seen a few girls in mid-tier clubs that do well by being very charming and charasmatic, but you are also going to be competing with some girls who are doing extras, either ITC or OTC.

It simply is. As Marlow Stanfield said to the convenience store security guard in an episode of the Wire:

"You want it to be one way, but it's the other way."

Fetish Dancer - Don't let all this scare you. I certainly appreciate your posts and understand your frustration with the extras gals.

I have experienced the same kind of resentment in the coin business while set up at coins shows with dealers who wholesale to the public as I am mainly retail. Those guys own shops where the stuff is coming at 50-60% of Bid (wholesale), consequently they can still make money wholesaling their stuff. This is simply the impact of market forces.

There are SC customers who take extras and those who don't. A dancer simply has to tailor her sell to her particular market. Fetish you sound like a nice young lady and I am sure if I met you in an Indy club like Brads where the dances are $10 (is that correct?) from the way you have described yourself I probably would enjoy the buffet and spend $100 on you in dances. I am not set in concrete and do not always go to SC to pursue extras but at the one here in SE Houston where I am VIP, extras are the norm. I even took a gal up to VIP in January determined just to take 2 dances @$20 (giving her the money upfront) but she immediately got nude and went to work on me with BJ, then Sex after making couch fort (it was great!). After a $100 tip, Damages were $450 (way over what I have been paying for pussy). I simply could not resist this 20 yr old blonde with sexy tats from Louisiana.

In Houston, strip clubs are 2 way heavy contact so the customer is free to feel the girl and roam as long its not in the G-String Area. I have not only felt them during LD's, but sucked boob and fingered them too (many times they freely volunteer it by lifting up their g string to expose it).

Consequently I consider all strippers sex workers whether extras girls or not. Sorry I don't really believe in two classes of strippers (Extras vs Non Extras Gals) except that I tend to view the extras gals as Wide Receivers and the others as Running Backs. Consequently I reject the idea one group is good and the other bad. Fetish I would view you as an RB, not a WR. I enjoy both types of gals in my SC hobby. That you don't want to be a WR is your problem, not the girl who actually is one and loves doing sex with customers whether itc or otc. Many gals who work in SC are with some BF or husband who may not be giving them that great of dick. So they are excited to get some strange along with some shopping money. And what a better place for them to enjoy this than at work (SC).

Payer11: "Many gals who work in SC are with some BF or husband who may not be giving them that great of dick. So they are excited to get some strange along with some shopping money."

Payer11 = clueless beyond all belief.

Well said Player11.

Fetish-Dancer,
As you know, extras vary by city/club. But even in the clubs w/extras, I have known many dancers that did quite well without extras. It is all in your ability to entertain and create the illusion.

I think we may have officially lost fetish_dancer.

I can't blame her for her views if she is relying upon stripperweb and some of the other stripper sites as her benchmarks. The stuff on those site would make you believe that all of the girls arrived straight from the rectory, providing a place where the Nuns share their tricks of the trade as to how to squeeze maximum value from us "patrons" or "custys" while not violating their sacred codes ;)

rickdugan: "I think we may have officially lost fetish_dancer."

Let's hope so. She was a complete moron.

tittyfan: How short dollars and short treasuries working out for you?

Dougster: I hear what you are saying but I am having trouble being to harsh on her. She is young and a bit naive. I suspect that her career as a stripper is going to be short lived as the realities of life continue to settle in.

Fetish Dancer is correct in my opinion. When I walk into a club and spot a dancer who I know will give me extras, I will wait longer for her to come over than a hotter, younger dancer who wont let me suck, finger or screw her. My money will stay in my pocket, or no where near as much will come out for the "good" girls.

Of course this is only true if you are looking for extras in the club, and not all guys are looking for that. Some just want a hot girl in their lap and paying them some attention.

Fetish echos views on SW and EDN. Those gals become ballistic at any mention of the possibility a dancer would do extras. Unfortunately the mods there support the same denial mentality and IMO as those sites are there to sell products to the dancers like the so called "Dancer Wealth". I have been kicked off both sites for freely expressing my views.

Those gals are welcome to their little clique where they can plot how to take more money while doing less. But if they think they will get my money for merely teasing me, they are deluded. To each his own, of course.

Even if you are doing them otc they can be thouchy about being viewed as a whore.

Some will openly admit it (not that I use that terminology) like Jessica (pic on my profile) saying "I am sure a lot of people see me with all my tats out in public and think I am a whore, well so what." Maggie (pic on my profile) I met for around a year. She told me "your only one I am doing, I am not a whore" once after a session while I was taking her out to dinner at a fine place. IDK bc I did know her live in knew about us but was supposedly "cool about it." I have always believed he was pimping her out.

Either way I think Strippers are sex workers and have found this thread interesting.

@ Player: I absolutely agree that many are very touchy about being viewed as a whore, since it is often not openly tolerated by the club or the other girls. The clubs and other girls know it happens, but no girl wants to be outed for fear of losing her job or retaliation by other girls.

I have noticed that some girls are also careful in picking who they do this with. The guy could be back in the club tomorrow or next week, so a girl can cut her own throat by picking a moron who will run his mouth off the next time he is around.