strip clubs and morality? who defines it? whats your opinion?

62 comments

• steve229

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  15 years ago

  Are you sure you're not in love with a stripper ...usually those all the only guys that get this worked up about strip clubs.
• perfect_gentleman

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  15 years ago

  Hell, I don't always love my job either. Just because it doesn't disgust my daddy doesn't mean I'm not being exploited. At least a stripper's lousy job gives us something beautiful to look at (etc.), which imo makes the world a more beautiful place. I also strive to make the world a beautiful place, but I don't get much opportunity to do so on the job. But I very much want to encourage that sort of behavior! Throwing around some money seems to do the trick, and usually makes everyone feel a little better.
• BaddJack

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  15 years ago

  Who is really being exploited here? Is it the "liar" or "hustler" or is it the sap that lets money get Hoovered out of his pockets for a little cuddle and a boner? WE are the exploited, and I am damn glad to serve.
• txtittyfan

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  15 years ago

  I fail to see the immorality of SC's. It appears to me that contact/services vary by municipality and probably reflects the social mores of the area. Are SC patrons any more immoral than non patrons are prudish? There have been more sex crimes in the Catholic Church than in SC's. Is the Church immoral? Although I would not like my daughter to be a SC dancer, I also would not want her to serve in the armed forces, but she is being raised to be able to make her own decisions, of which one is obtaining an education. And not all dancers are fucking sluts as you call them. I have known many intelligent articulate dancers that are smart enough to know how to make a lot of cash to save for their future needs/goals. The arguments presented by andersonsc IMO are the typical generalist/stereotypes of a disgruntled individual. IMO the prevalence and success of SC's has nothing to do with morality, but a lot to do with societal hypocrisy. Everything in a SC is between consenting adults.
• gatorfan

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  15 years ago

  Morality, who's definition? My definition of morality: anything which does not inflict harm or has criminal intentions against another. I consider criminals who perfect acts of crime which are intented to hurt another as immoral (including pedophiles and rapists). I also consider people including the Christian right who claims they are moral as immoral since they are judging and therefore putting down other people in classifying them as immoral. A person who respects other individuals and does not inflict pain or suffering upon them would be a person of morality in my book.
• wallanon

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  15 years ago

  That's way too long for a topic starter.
• wallanon

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  15 years ago

  Now that I've read it, not sure what to do with it. Is there a story behind this?
• rekrap

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  15 years ago

  Everyone for the most part works their 'job' in order to get paid. I didn't come out of grade school and dream of selling office supplies and nor did the young girl dream of dancing at an SC. Bottom line is were both being paid to do our 'job' so we can enjoy the earnings with our fam and friends etc. How ones occupation and morality get thrown together is the same sentence is beyond me.
• Player11

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  15 years ago

  As a SC regular for a number of years I think the only people who are concerned with the morality of SC or non SC participants. Its a two way street - I would dispute someone saying dancers or customers are exploited. Dancers are there to make money, I am there to feel them and in many instances get pussy. The current one I am seeing has got about $9500 from me ytd. She, a married law student who owns her own home, is hardly exploited.
• Dougster

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  15 years ago

  rekrap: "How ones occupation and morality get thrown together is the same sentence is beyond me. " Reminds of the movie The Godfather: "Don't get me wrong, I don't care what a man does for a living". I hate threads like this because people will just do what they want to, and then rationalize it with statements that can't even stand up to 10 seconds of logical scrutiny.
• emmett

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  15 years ago

  I have an 18-year old daughter. I still enjoy strip clubs. I also have a 21-year old son. I go to the car wash, and a kid my son's age dries off the car for minimum wage and tips. His life probably sucks, and he probably has no future. I still go to the car wash, and tip him, and don't feel bad about it. Now I have no problem telling my kids that I go to the car wash. Sometimes they even come with me. I don't discuss my SC visits with them. There is definitely a moral stigma associated with SCs that doesn't apply to car washes. But it doesn't change the fact that working in either one is not a dream job, and that I don't feel badly about tipping the employees at each.
• harrydave

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  15 years ago

  Mr. Anderson, you have very conflicting and largely negative views about strippers. If you feel it is immoral, don't go. As for me, I've never been comfortable with American norms for morality, especially around sexuality. I'm an unmarried adult. The "girls" in the club are there of their own free will. We're not hurting each other. In most cases, we're enjoying each other's company. The moral turpitude in this situation is pretty obscure to me.
• Dougster

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  15 years ago

  harrydave: "The 'girls' in the club are there of their own free will." Sort of. But as the OP says many of the girls do what they do because of drug addictions or due to sexual abuse. The most hard core customers (posters here?) are likely playing out their own addiction or other "issues". Although there is no physical coercion it basically boils down to everyone exploiting everyone else. If your definition of morality says that's ok, then it's a pretty weak definition. Now, the interesting thing here is that many here will think their ATF/whore/whatever you want to call her is doing what she is doing because she feel for his charm. Girls can hide their real reasons well, especially to customers determined to live in denial. At the same time it is also pointless to try and make such claims to them because their need for denial and to escape cognitive dissonance blinds them from reality.
• chandler

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  15 years ago

  I realize that strip clubs are pretty depraved places that do a lot of harm to everyone involved. They also provide a lot of fun and pleasure, so I'm glad they exist just as they are. That's the way it is for a lot of vices and addictions. A junkie knows some blood has been spilled to make his fix possible, but he's glad for it regardless. A strip club without a little seediness wouldn't be any fun. The world isn't all puppy dogs and daffodils. Of course the owner is a sleazeball, most of the strippers are casualties, and the patrons are all deceiving themselves. Does any of that stop me from wanting a stripper to squirm on my lap? Don't be ridiculous! Anderson, I think if you ask us to "hear you out", you owe us something better than a litany of the most cliched bad things about strip clubs. Let's hear your story. What brings you to this site, and what are you doing in response all this nasty business you bemoan?
• Dougster

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  15 years ago

  chandler: if you had been more successful in your attempt to be a writer and in your relationships with non-pay for women do you think you would hang out in strip clubs as much as you do, and play your power games with strippers?
• SuperDude

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  15 years ago

  I have knows strippers who are college gradutes. One stripper told me she was a practicing lawyer and I laughed, until her law partner came in the club and turned out to be my classmate from law school. Another told me she was a CPA and I refused to believe it until I found her registration on line with the State of Michigan. Then a stripper who was a fitness model and bodybuilder told me she had a Masters Degree in Social Work from the University of Michigan. And she was listed on line in Michigan's gradute school directory. She was divorced and had quit her life as the wife of an evangelical minister. The lawyer was trying to pay a huge I.R.S. bill. The CPA had a drinking problem. The bodybuilder, finished college at 32, and decided that she wanted more out of life than being a preacher's wife. I think we overanalyze why women do this because we were taught that only bad girls did sex work. We were not allowed to think for ourselves in our formative years and still cannot accept the idea that some women like the "action," attention and easy money. This does not ignore those with serious emotional problems and history of abuse, but what would closing SCs do to help them with that?
• SuperDude

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  15 years ago

  That graduate dummy.
• shadowcat

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  15 years ago

  My favorite success story is about a dancer that was never a favorite ( too tame for me)She put herself through college at the University of South Carolina. She now has tenure there as a teacher. She still dances occasionally because she misses it. Probably likes the money too...
• txtittyfan

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  15 years ago

  Dancing affords the opportunity for a lot of women to earn substantially more money than they could in other occupations. Some are uneducated and lucky to be earning anything. Others are smart enough to realize it is a good cash cow and take advantage of it while they can.
• Dougster

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  15 years ago

  Pretty idealized view of the world, tx. I think you make the mistake of just take appearances and what strippers say at face value. Dig a better and you will learn that very, very seldomly is money the primary motivation even among the "smart" ones.
• harrydave

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  15 years ago

  This is an interesting argument. Dougster, I have spent a ton of time with strippers, a lot of it OTC doing normal things like going to dinner, taking day trips, going to the movies, etc. I am in full agreement that many of them have issues. There is history of abuse and drug use, and at times mental illness. However, the vast majority are pretty clear about why they are stripping; they can make more money in less time, with schedule flexibility. A few of them couldn't reason their way out of a paper bag, but that is also true of some poor souls who work at a variety of menial jobs and can't seem to get anywhere. Do we all have mixed motivations for the things we do? You bet. Is money everything? No. So how does that make strippers any different? Are some of them exploited? Yes. But then some people say Walmart is exploiting all their workers. I could go on, but the basic point is that strip clubs, their workers, and their patrons are pretty much reflective of the larger world. Attempts to classify stripper and generalize about their traits can be amusing, but also dehumanizing. Why would we do that except to build up our own pathetic egos?
• txtittyfan

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  15 years ago

  It is possible some customers have low opinions of dancers because they can only attract and/or interact with the less educated ones.
• txtittyfan

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  15 years ago

  Also, to say that dancers are not motivated by money, ignores the fact that they tend to flock to cities during conventions and major sporting events. For a lot of dancers, the easy money becomes a drug for them.
• gatorfan

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  15 years ago

  This discussion topic is basically everything wrong with Americans. We judge others according to how we think others should be. This country is too f'ng sexually repressive, which is why we go to strip clubs and brothels are illegal in most states. Then add the fact more foreign girls are working in strip clubs, massage parlors and other similiar businesses. If the girl chooses this profession that's fine, but when the girl is doing a job against her will, it's a big problem. If this country would get it's head out of it's ass and legalize prostitution, legalize marijuana, fix the immigration laws and stop deciding who's wrong and who's right, especially those of us who want to PAY for a BJ at the end of the week! Those who are with me say "AYE"
• shadowcat

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  15 years ago

  I couldn't find the quote that I was looking for in my love letters. The one where she said that it was more than just the money. It was a need to feel loved and appreciated. Maybe this will fill the gap. Sept 2003, John, "Life is like a butterfly. The more you chase it, the more it will elude you. But if you turn your attention to other things, it will come and sit softly on your shoulder". Yeah, a stripper wrote that. Gone but will never be forgotten.
• harrydave

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  15 years ago

  gatorfan, agreed. Anybody want to take a field trip to Amsterdam?
• wallanon

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  15 years ago

  Think somebody might have just gone there. Trip report? [view link]
• driver01

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  15 years ago

  At the end of the day, like most things vice or not-- the moral law is trumped by the law of supply and demand.
• gk

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  15 years ago

  Is it Rev. Anderson or is it Senator Anderson? I see you joined this forum last Monday, so I really don't know where you are coming from. While we have had a few moral discussions here, the primary function of this forum is not to debate the morality of the SC club industry's employees or customers. The last time I checked we were still the land of opportunity. Sometimess opportunity comes in asymetrical forms. Does that make it wrong? No. Morality is a personal matter. You handle yours, I'll handle mine. The last time I checked we were still a nation of individual liberties--oh wait a minute, that might not be true. We have to fight and be vigillant about the erosion of personal liberties. Are you anti-liberty? Some comments: First, on the "killer question." Wrong! If my daughter, God forbid,ever faced starvation, not being able to provide for her children or dying for lack of any other job, I would hope that if there was nothing else available, she could find a job stripping. My killer question to you: are you saying the alternatives I've listed above are preferable? I have known several dancers with college degrees. They are now nurses, CPAs, psychologists, health care providers, social workers, business owners. I have seen their resumes and helped them prepare for job interviews and took pleasure in seeing them find mainstream employment. I think most of us would disagree with the assumption that strip clubs are bad places. They are places of escape, relaxation and comraderie. Selling sex? I know of no strip club that bills itself as a sex emporium. But what two consenting adults do together should not be a concern of yours. Some dancers enjoy what they do. Granted, some do not and struggle with it. But it's their choice and they've made it for various reasons. Who are you to pass judgment on personal choices that may or may not be the right ones for an individual? That's what life is all about. Most strippers need the big cash from limited hours stripping provides them because they have responsibilities/obligations. More power to them. If not for the job they chose, they might be a burdon on society and our limitedsocial safety net resources. Yes, some have complex issues they must deal with. Wouldn't it be better to help them through these than to persecture them for having difficulties? And finjally, as it's been noted, strip clubs exist because there is a demand for them. You don't need to be a part of that market if you don't want to.
• gatorfan

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  15 years ago

  We need to RALLY with our signs so these Healthcare whackjobs go crawling back to whatever hole or bunker they came out of. They want healthcare, we'll give them healthcare: - Pain medications and marijuana will be covered by insurance - Getting a prostate massage and exam at your local strip club is also covered by insurance if people decide to - Asian Massage also is covered as massage therapy by insurance - And could someone please tell these politicians that getting laid, blown or jerked off once a week is part of "preventative care", I believe (and I am not a doctor) that these enlarged prostate issues happen because men are not getting laid, blown or jerked enough. They tell us we need 8 bottles of water a day, 4 bowls of cereal, 2 glasses of milk, and add 1 getting off to that weekly regiment!
• txtittyfan

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  15 years ago

  gatorfan, what T Bro said, AYE AYE Now if the politicians give us what you suggest, they would probably want to control it which would makle it worse, although I have heard that the medical marijuana is pretty good.
• andersonsc

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  15 years ago

  Not a pastor or a senator. Just a man. I didn't say that the first part of my rant was 100% my beliefs. Read below and I make points from the other side. I don't really have a reason for this thread....just wanting to see what people thought. Considering this is tuscl and therefore assuming everyone here likes clubs.....it was interesting to see that some members actually admit the problems in sc's. Let's take prostitution....very immoral and degrading. No question. A whore is a whore. At the same time I don't think it should be illegal. Why? Its between 2 consenting adults. I have heard that south carolina is close to having a 6 foot rule. That's dumb. Its not for columbia to decide what we do. And without getting specific I know way way way more about sc's than anyone on this board other than a dancer. I know everything involved from a to z. The good and the bad. You "regulars" think you know but you don't. That's what happens. Not many junkies realize they are junkies until its too late.
• harrydave

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  15 years ago

  Hey andersonsc, thanks for bringing your unassailable knowledge to us morons and pathetic losers. So informative, and without a hint of arrogance or superiority. It sure did open my eyes. Three cheers!
• shadowcat

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  15 years ago

  If SC adopts and enforces a 6 foot rule, I will have to find a new place to party or take it OTC.
• wallanon

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  15 years ago

  tsk-tsk. andersonsc is being rude. Isn't this the same guy who was posting he didn't know if his best friend the stripper had ever sat on a hard dick? While it's tough enough to fit their egos on the board as it is, what most of these guys sporting senior discounts have forgotten about clubs is more than the average "I have a stripper friend" poseur will ever see. Good to know that Anderson, SC finally gained access to the internet. Can Timbuktu be far behind?
• andersonsc

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  15 years ago

  You guys here saying "they aren't whores" also say on another topic about should girls bring their own ky or should you? Lol define whore. Someone that provides sex for money. Guess that doesn't apply to y'all since you are regulars or "friends" with the girls. Y'all are idiots.
• gatorfan

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  15 years ago

  6 foot rule? is that because someone has a 6 foot dick? AndersonSC- I honestly couldn't give a rat's fucking ass what those people you are referring to think. Please tell whoever religious, uptight, judgemental pricks who are saying this shit. The United States of America is a free society to think and live within the freedom provided to us. The religious right is likewise afforded the right to practice their religion even though not every one likes christianity and their beliefs. Stop telling others how they should live their lives or try moving to a country where the goverment tells them what to think and believe, how would they like that? Be free, be happy, mind their own fucking business!
• Dougster

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  15 years ago

  andersonsc: "And without getting specific I know way way way more about sc's than anyone on this board other than a dancer." Well I understand it even better than the dancers, so, at best, you are second to me. :-)
• chandler

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  15 years ago

  Gatorfan, nothing will change without johns and PLs having the guts to speak out publicly and work harder for it than the other side. Until that happens, all the rants and the anonymous ayes you get on a strip club board ring hollow.
• chandler

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  15 years ago

  Anderson, you're confusing morality with mores. Because prostitution carries a stigma doesn't prove that it's "very immoral, no question." You've also shown yourself to be incredibly naive about strip clubs, both in this topic and the spate of thread you started about your so-called best friend. Telling us you're a know-it-all doesn't disguise what you've demonstrated to the contrary.
• gatorfan

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  15 years ago

  Chandler- I agree with you, but since AndersonSC is going to post a discussion topic he says he "heard", his comment should then have been ignored, especially if it is not his own. This topic is the equivalent of AndersonSC posting: Everyone who posts here and goes to strip clubs are assholes, but I'm not saying your assholes I just heard you were assholes
• txtittyfan

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  15 years ago

  andersonSC forgets Strip Clubs are entertainment, and probabbly does not know manny dancers.
• chandler

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  15 years ago

  Back to the topic of morality, I'm surprised by all the polarized black-or-white reactions. I thought there would be a little more acknowledgment that clubs are, at the least, places of ambiguous morality. Hasn't it forever been the case that chasing after illicit pleasures involves entering into shady territory ruled by characters who do whatever it takes to make it available? All you can do, I feel, is to try to conduct yourself in a way that doesn't make things any worse. Even with that, I believe there's always some cost to the soul that comes with the kind of NSA pleasures that hardcore strip club junkie like us indulge in. I can't agree with those who talk as though it can have no consequences at all. Sex always has consequences. *snort*
• chandler

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  15 years ago

  That's cool, Gatorfan. Party on.
• Dougster

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  15 years ago

  chandler: "Even with that, I believe there's always some cost to the soul that comes with the kind of NSA pleasures that hardcore strip club junkie like us indulge in. " Agreed. Interestingly, chandler himself is a perfect example of this "corrupted soul" phenomena.
• gatorfan

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  15 years ago

  Right on, Chandler. I'm surprised AndersonSC even bothered to post again, it's more typical to post the topic and run, unless he's Dick Johnson and enjoys the banter.
• harrydave

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  15 years ago

  Chandler, I like your reminder about the ambiguity of a discussion about morals. I just read the Wikipedia article on morality, and it points instances where morality is subjective or certain moral prescriptions are controversial. Like, "killing is wrong", except when you invade a country. I bet each of us has seen illegal and immoral acts by the thousands in strip clubs (and on the highway, every day). In my mind, this does not then paint all the patrons and strippers with the broad brush of immorality. I like the challenge in life of sorting out the people I meet one at a time. I don't understand guys who go to strip clubs with the predisposed notion that "they are all whores". They are missing out on a lot, and must leave each time drenched in a stew of self loathing. I usually leave sorry there are only 24 hours in a day!
• Dougster

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  15 years ago

  I fail to understand what people think they are proving by pointing out that some strippers are college graduates. Has anyone ever said there is not a single stripper in the country who is a college graduate? Didn't think so... For every college graduate stripper you show me, I'll show you 10, maybe 20 who are not.
• gatorfan

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  15 years ago

  All stock brokers and investment bankers are crooks/white collar criminals. I think I'd be better off investing with these so called stripper whores, thank you very much.
• Dougster

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  15 years ago

  It's kind of funny now thinking back to when I was younger and I thought that people's morality determined their actions. Later on I realized, of course, that their action determine their purported morality, meaning they will do what they are inclined to anyway and then add rationalizations after the fact, often ones that don't stand up to a minute of logical scrutiny. But are they really so dumb they can't see the weaknesses? I think not. Their minds only let's them see the little glimmers that confirm their beliefs while ignoring the vast sea of evidence that contradicts it. In the case of strip club addicts they don't want to know what really goes on beneath the surface because, of course, they would then have to struggle with the dilemma that their money is helping keep it going. And of course they will kid themselves that their ATF (often a whore) has no part of it.
• gatorfan

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  15 years ago

  I still haven't changed my mind, all stock brokers and investment bankers are lying, criminal inglorious basterd's! Let's talk morality on those fucks, they wrecked this country! I've never heard of a stripper being able to accomplish that.
• Dougster

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  15 years ago

  gator: "I've never heard of a stripper being able to accomplish that." Could be merely because they lack the competence to accomplish much of anything outside of strip clubs.
• txtittyfan

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  15 years ago

  gatorfan, your anger is misdirected, while true that investment bankers fit your profile, they were only part of the problem. The public, by buying homes beyond their means and lying about their income, helped by unscrupulous mortgage brokers were the bigger problem. I lived in Phx during the housing bubble and saw first hand the recklessness on behalf of John Q Public and the mortgage industry. Fortunately, I was astute enough to sell my properties and move to TX where the strip clubs are brothels. As an ex stockbroker, I can agree that they are for the most part clueless. I left the industry after a few successful years to work on my own
• Dougster

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  15 years ago

  tx: "As an ex stockbroker, I can agree that they are for the most part clueless." tx who said to short treasuries the day before they bottomed, and then said China was going to stop buying treasuries just as they were ramping up their purchases is calling other brokers clueless? Now that is truly too funny! gatorfan holding "stock brokers" LOL! responsible when they are pretty much the bottom of the financial food chain suggests to me he wasn't being serious.
• gatorfan

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  15 years ago

  Txtitty- my post is sarcastic to make a point. This whole topic is about as subjective as possible. We should never prejudge or say all are the same as a few. No, I'd never invest in GoldClub-Sax (unless we consider lap dances as investments, which I actually consider some strip clubs more as sperm banks!)
• Dougster

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  15 years ago

  gator: "We should never prejudge or say all are the same as a few." The OP never said all were the same. Went to lengths to point out there are exceptions. I'm not sure why people make the incredibly obvious point that they are not all the same when no one ever says they are.
• Dougster

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  15 years ago

  Also I do not agree that it is just a few who fit the OPs description. If you ever investigate stuff "behind the curtains" you'll find that nearly all strippers, and especially those who do sex for money, fall into one or several of the following categories: poorly educated, sexually abused when young, has a drug addiction, has a physical or mental illness. It's actually "the few" who don't make it into any of those categories.
• gatorfan

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  15 years ago

  Actually there's a group increasing their ranks in recent years, immigrants. Many strip clubs in the northeast have alot of immigrants and this trend seems to be continuing as the money is good and quick.
• txtittyfan

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  15 years ago

  gatorfan, I have heard that Obama followers want to change the inscription on the Statue of Liberty, to welcome these immigrants to our SC's and the land of opportunity.
• gatorfan

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  15 years ago

  TXTitty- I heard some people wanted to change the inscription to read WELCOME TO AMERICA, TO BECOME A CITIZEN YOU MUST BLOW EVERY MAN WILLING. Okay, I wrote that and I'm sure at least 5 people agree with me.
• Dougster

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  15 years ago

  Hey, tx! How about that rally in the dollar today? Idiot!
• Clubber

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  15 years ago

  In answer to your question, like everything, we each use our own definition. Morally, in my book, wrong, but doesn't stop me.