tuscl

Obama and strip-club employees

Friday, May 16, 2008 2:42 AM
Strip-club dancers are typically considered "independent contractors". But would that classification hold up under a new bill proposed by Obama and Durbin? Last September, Senators Obama and Durbin introduced legislation that would close the "Section 530 safe harbor" loophole in the tax law. The way that loophole works is this: "An employer can cut its payroll costs by up to 30% if it calls a worker an “independent contractor” instead of an “employee” and issues a Form 1099 instead of Form W-2 to the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). As long as it treats like workers the same, the employer does not have to withhold taxes from the worker's pay, forcing workers to pay all their own payroll taxes as if he or she were self-employed. And, at the same time, the employers fail to pay their fair share of federal and state payroll taxes. Section 530 bars the IRS from penalizing the employer if he falls under the safe harbor, requiring a change in the treatment of workers even if the IRS concludes that those workers should be treated as employees, and it bars the IRS from writing rules, regulations and guidance on the matter." "Genuine independent contractors make up a small part of the American workforce because, by definition, an independent contractor operates his or her own business. They have specialized skills, they invest capital in the business, and they perform a new service, not just routine services already that other workers already provide. Most workers, especially in labor intensive jobs like construction are not operating a business of their own. [Zerzan's note: This sounds like it could target a stripper's line of work - for they don't have specialized skills, and they perform a routine service at the club.] "This legislation will close the Section 530 loophole. It will allow the government to collect the taxes employers owe and level the playing field for all workers and employers. The legislation will also address the serious need for more enforcement of federal tax and employment laws to identify those employers in major industries that wrongly classify their workers as independent contactors and require greater cooperation between the IRS and the Department of Labor in enforcing the law." QUESTION: What would be the impact on strip-clubs in the US, if the "section 530" loophole were to be closed, as it would under Obama's bill? I've heard that dancers are considered "independent contractors" by the clubs who hire them. So, the club is exempted from paying Social Security contributions and all sorts of taxes and overhead. But are dancers really "contracting out" to clubs, or aren't they rather a 1st tier customer themselves? They pay a stage fee to the club (and in the club's defense, doesn't that mean the dancers invest capital in their own business??). In addition, all of the dancer's earnings come through customers' tips; they even stand to lose money on a bad night. I'm not sure how this business model can be accurately classified in terms of IRS code. If Obama's bill passes, I wonder if the government will try to impose a straight "restaurant" model onto strip-clubs, and make the clubs pay their dancers minimum wage and benefits like Workers Comp, Social Security contributions, etc... while dancers continue to work for their tips, like a waitress? If this legislation were to pass, and dancers have to be reclassified as employees, would this destroy the industry as we know it? I imagine clubs would only be able to retain a small number of dancers due to the massive new expense of maintaining a large stable. So, instead of walking into your favorte club and seeing 20-25 dancers, you would only see maybe 3 or 4 on a given night. And that's if the place hadn't gone out of business entirely. I guess I paint a pretty bleak picture. I just hope none of this comes to pass. Here is a link to the article on the proposed legislation: [view link]

15 comments

  • casualguy
    16 years ago
    Another reason not to vote for Obama in my opinion. Many want change but I certainly do not want a change for the worse. I may have to explore third party choices for a protest vote.
  • Dudester
    16 years ago
    The bill is part of the democratic party ideal that a gigantic cradle to grave government is best for us because people are too stupid and employers too cruel and greedy to be trusted and need to be under the supervision of a government, not unlike one depicted in the book 1984 (Big Brother is watching you). BTW-Conservative Bob Barr announced his candidcy for President on Monday as the Libertarian candidate.
  • MisterGuy
    16 years ago
    I don't think all strip clubs classify their dancers as independent contractors. As is basically stated above, some clubs started to designate them as independent contractors as a tax dodge, period. It's one the reasons why both owners and dancers can avoid paying the govt. what they should. "doesn't that mean the dancers invest capital in their own business?" What business? They don't own the strip club. Tips can be and are taxed very easily right now. If anyone should be eligible for Workers Comp, it's a stripper...lol...they literally ruin their bodies (backs, legs, feet, etc.) from dancing and gyrating so much. "The bill is part of the Democratic party ideal that a gigantic cradle to grave government is best for us because people are too stupid and employers too cruel and greedy to be trusted and need to be under the supervision of a government" Ummmm, no, I think it's just about everyone paying their fair share of taxes. "Conservative Bob Barr announced his candidcy for President on Monday as the Libertarian candidate." Let me be the first to congratulate him on his massive impending loss then. :)
  • FONDL
    16 years ago
    Dancers do in fact have to make a significant investment in their business. Those outifts and shoes are pretty expensive. They also have significant operating costs - hairdresser, nails, makeup, perfume, drugs ... And they usually have to pay for theprivelege of working in the club, one way or another, it ain't all gravy. If clubs had to treat them as employees they'd hire a lot fewer girls.
  • Book Guy
    16 years ago
    I kinda prefer Bob Barr (or Ron Paul) over the current crop ... :P Anyway. The bit about independent contractors -- I wonder what kind of bellwether that would provide on the economy as a whole. These "grey area" tax dodges, and other things in cash businesses where the participants are often on the last vestiges of possibility ... don't they tell us something about opportunity and sense of value in the economy as a whole? Anyway, I can't imagine a major impact if Obama's bill changes things. The strip clubs could just "employ" six or ten girls a night as "full time" -- they'd have to pick the ones who were most likely to arrive on time and fill a full shift. Those girls would get an hourly minimum wage paid to them for their work that night. The rest of their earnings would have to come from the usual sources -- lap-dance charges, etc. The employers would then have to do a whole load of accounting shenanigans to pretend that those few girls were "paid employees" -- tax withholding, worker's comp, etc. But basically aside from that small amount of loss on the night to the club (which they could likely recoup by simply demanding that the girls pay it back in under-the-table tip-out fees) where would the change be? More work for strip-club accountants who can run basic Quick-Books, I guess. Another creative solution would be to employ them as bartenders / cocktail waitresses. They're on payroll to serve drinks. That they spend 99% of their time partying or giving lappers would be ancillary.
  • quimby
    16 years ago
    Mister Guy - I agree with you.... My understanding is that the IRS has tried for 25 years (with various amounts of success) to get unreported, underground wages reported... I was wondering if casual construction labor was the real target of this law.
  • MisterGuy
    16 years ago
    I agree FONDL that most the stuff that you list are legitimate business expenses for dancers, which can be written off right now I think (?). I still don't think though that the baloney arangement that a lot of clubs have with the dancers where they pay an upfront fee to the club is legitimate business expense...it's just the club ripping the dancers off.
  • AbbieNormal
    16 years ago
    Remember that for the most part we are talking about social security here, not income tax. It has, as mentioned above, been a long term effort by the IRS to get more money from tipped employees. My experience, as a waiter and bartender, is that if it weren't for the fact that you were paid in cash for a large percentage of your wage, and could "forget" to report it nobody would make enough money at these jobs to take them (more jobs Americans won't do). Recent changes in technology have made things tougher for the tipped employees. All sales are recorded by individual, and the IRS assumes that you are tipped at a minimum 12% of your sales. This accounts for various tipouts, etc. If you report less, you're screwed. If your credit card tips show greater that 12% tips on average, you're screwed. Essentially the IRS decides how much you make and taxes you on it in those cases. As for contractors, some clubs do treat dancers as contractors, which is realistic if they dance at more than one club or do bachelor parties etc. In addition a lot of businesses have decided to make employees contractors for tax reasons. Colleges are one of the prime offenders. Most entry level instructors are contractors and are given a 1099 and must pay both their, and the employer share of social security. I was in this situation also. I quit because frankly it wasn't worth the time for the money I was making after taxes.
  • Clubber
    16 years ago
    Wouldn't a Federal sales tax solve this? You buy something with your money, you are taxed, no mater where the money came from. Even illegally gotten money would be taxed! End of story. No wait, some idiot will say it isn't fair.
  • Zerzan
    16 years ago
    Thanks for the feedback guys. I guess I'm still confused as to how a dancer could be considered an employee, when the strip club she works for doesn't pay her anything. No salary. No wages. No benefits. Nothing. In fact, it is typically the dancer who pays the strip club a "fee" for the right to dance in that club. So who exactly is working for whom here? If the club owner makes money directly off the dancer, and not vice versa, how does that make her an "employee" of the club in the eyes of the IRS? I thought the definition of employee is someone who gets reimbursed for doing work for someone else. Yet in this case, the club is paying zero. I mean, even a waitress gets paid minimum age. Does anyone know of any dancer who gets paid an hourly wage by the club, and/or benefits such as health insurance, social security contribution payments, etc? I just don't get it.
  • Zerzan
    16 years ago
    I wrote: "doesn't that mean the dancers invest capital in their own business?" MisterGuy repsonds: "What business? They don't own the strip club. Tips can be and are taxed very easily right now." Hello Misterguy. I wasn't very clear in what I said. What I meant by saying dancers invest capital in their own business, is that in order for them to go on stage and dance in the club, they typically have to pay the club a fee for the right to do so. In other words, they are investing their own capital on themselves, in the hopes that they can earn above and beyond that amount in tips. To me, that seems more like an investment. And I've heard a few rare stories where a dancer has actually lost money on a bad night. (i.e., her "investment" didn't turn a profit) "...If anyone should be eligible for Workers Comp, it's a stripper...lol...they literally ruin their bodies (backs, legs, feet, etc.) from dancing and gyrating so much." I agree. And not only that, but some of these girls do some dangerous acrobatics on those stripper poles. I bet a workers comp policy would run pretty high for a strip club owner. Does anyone know of any dancers who were seriously injured on those poles? I've heard of dancers spraining their ankles and so forth... but nothing too serious. In general, I believe that dancers should be afforded the basic coverage and benefits that every worker has come to expect and enjoy on his or her job. I just don't know how severely this would impact the indutsry. Like that article said, it would increase expenses by about 30%. That's not chump change.
  • Book Guy
    16 years ago
    Maybe Mr.Guy and Zerzan are disputing over the definitions, respectively, of "investing capital in a business" as opposed to "legitimate business expense." The two probably have some hairline distinction that accountants know how to haggle over ...
  • MisterGuy
    16 years ago
    "Remember that for the most part we are talking about social security here" I think we're actually talking about payroll taxes of which SS is a part of for sure. Don't believe for a second that strippers are claiming all of their income on their tax forms...lol... What about wait staff that work multiple jobs? Why should strippers be classified any different than wait staff are right now? "I guess I'm still confused as to how a dancer could be considered an employee, when the strip club she works for doesn't pay her anything. No salary. No wages. No benefits." Well, obviously this would have to change if they had to be employees...lol...I think that's part of the point. "it is typically the dancer who pays the strip club a 'fee' for the right to dance in that club." I'm having a hard time thinking of jobs where you have to pay the owner for the "priviledge" of working there. "Welcome to the team there Bob, we're glad to have you aboard at our firm. That'll be a $50 tipout before you can get to work today..." :) I think that you're thinking about this issue too much from the point of the status quo. Not everything has to be the same forever yanno. "Wouldn't a Federal sales tax solve this?" Of course it wouldn't, but you've already been told that before in another thread there Rush. Sales taxes are regressive, period. Go get a job BG...
  • FONDL
    16 years ago
    Seems to me that if such a bill were to go through, many clubs would only allow their dancers to work part time, which is what many of them prefer anyway. So the club still wouldn't have to provide any benefits. And I bet a lot of dancers would work off the books to avoid the social security charge. Just like a lot of part time employees do now in other linds of businesses. Just because someone passes a law doesn't mean that people are going to comply with it, I'm sure a lot of clubs, especially smaller ones, will figure ways to get around it. I can't picture the IRS spending a lot of time hassling tiny strip clubs when they don't even have enough enforcement people to go after all the big fish who are cheating - it wouldn't be cost effective.
  • mansfeld
    16 years ago
    In theory the dancers are paying the payroll taxes already, thru the self employment part of their income tax. The governments problem is that it doesn't have a good way to track what was actually earned. The democrats are pushing to eliminate loopholes good and bad. Contractors of all sorts are able to under report earnings. They also have to struggle with the other side of the loopholes, no unemployment or health insurance. If the obama reforms do affect the clubs I'm sure someone will find a way around the new rules.
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