Is scamming a "hustle" now?

Were you paying for the "after party" before even leaving the club?

Why did you not bring them back to your hotel? You just state that it didn't happen, and not why it didn't happen.

"Alluded" doesn't sound like "promised". In civvie dating, it's common that men seek to impress women with expensive dates and gifts. Many, it seems like most, women don't consider it wrong to accept what a man gives them, even if they have no interest in him. It's the way of the world, nothing particular to strippers. Or women.

Maybe you're the exception among customers, single or honest with your SO that you're seeing sex workers. If not, do you see the irony being judgmental about someone else's sketchy behavior?

I would recommend that for your own safety you stick to online porn and stay out of the clubs. This game is too much for you and you're clearly an easy mark. You allowed yourself to get taken.
Only pay cash and NEVER pay until services are given. Contrary to what the white knights on here will tell you, they're not goddesses. They're junkies and crooks. Treat them accordingly.

I learned that lesson once by paying before leaving the club and got ghosted. I considered it tuition. No doubt I’ll learn that lesson again sometime, but it’s one I haven’t forgotten. Yet. You’re right to out the ROB. It’s all in the game.

When she asked you to zelle or cashapp her money did she specifically say what was going to happen in exchange for the money? If not, it was just a normal hustle of trying to pry as much money as possible from you by basically saying things would get better.

Also, as someone who has worked as a fraud investigator for a credit card company for more than a decade I would expect your claim of fraud to be declined and you'll be out the money. The fact is you did agree to send them the funds and you can't use the fact that they refused to commit a crime (prostitution) as the reason to deny the funds transferred. That claim is going to go about as well as someone calling the cops to say their drug dealer gave them fake meth.

Guys I'm not debating whether or not it was smart to send money before any "services". I knew from the start it wasn't likely to end well and I'd probably just be out the money. Thankfully, I make enough that it isn't a *huge* deal. Lesson learned. (And update for anyone curious: no, I haven't gotten that money back. Oh well).

The discussion is whether or not we all consider this interaction to be a (fair) hustle as the commentor seemed to think. I think trying to upsell you on VIP or more dances are fair hustles. Suggesting extras ITC or OTC with no intention of following through is just a simple scam/rob.

I don’t consider that a hustle, to my thinking it was just an outright scam

This happens so frequently. You shouldn't have given her the money until at the location. You literally walked right into that hustle. 😂

You used a credit card at a strip club?

Cash only. A dancer can say you owe $6000. You laugh and walk away. At the very worst the club will ban you, but most managers know who the ROBs are and won't back them up

I mean this is basic mongering 101, you pay after services are rendered.

"Suggesting extras ITC or OTC with no intention of following through is just a simple scam/rob."

There is a big difference between "suggesting" and agreeing to extras. She can say that she can't suck your dick in the lapdance room but "suggest" that it could happen in the VIP by saying how much more private it is and how there aren't as many rules in there. If you get in the VIP and she still says she won't suck your dick that isn't a scam or a rob. Now if she says "if we do the vip for an hour and you give me an extra $100 I'll suck your dick" and then fails to do so after you pay her that is a scam.

Same goes for her "suggesting" otc is an option by saying something like "if you spend enough here to make it worth my while I'll consider it" isn't her agreeing to do it and is just a hustle. Now if she says "give me $500 cash and I'll meet you at your hotel in an hour" and doesn't show up that is a scam.

What Whodey said. OP scammed himself by having an overactive imagination and/or failing to ask direct, unambiguous questions.

@Elitis I and probably most of the PLs on here have FELT the way you're feeling about this. Basically, what people are trying to say is, you are thinking about this activity in some abstract way, that has no relationship to its reality. PLs and strippers, in general, have a contemptuous, mocking attitude towards each other. If you were buying a used appliance from somebody, would you typically pay them first, and then pick it later? Particularly, would you do that if you knew the seller probably had a contemptuous attitude towards you?

Have you seen all the posts on here about getting cheap extras at the end of the month when rent is due? When somebody is the target of such strategies, you shouldn't expect them to be nice or fair in return. You can say that they shouldn't lump us all together, or we shouldn't lump all of them together. But that's generally human nature, whether it should be or not.

When and how did going back to the hotel with you fall apart?

Does it matter what we call it? "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." In any case, your review isn't real clear about what happened. It's hard to pass judgement on the girl with what you've given us.

It half sounds like she was merely talking to you about her plans after work to hang out with her friend and simply asked you to give her some money. Then, when you did, she asked again & you did again. If it weren't for the "I did not end up bringing them back to my hotel as they alluded to" I would have pegged you as the villain in the story much the way the commenter did. After all, if she gave you good dances and simply asked for more money, trying to recover that money later would be a douche move.

Even with that line, it's unclear. You fail to explain why you didn't end up taking them back to your hotel. For all we know, you might have gotten cold feet or something. The bit about her blocking you from going to the bathroom is utterly confusing. I can't figure out the relationship to them not going back with you, it would make more sense in a scenario where you were pick pocketed or maybe drugged and had your diminished capabilities used against you. I can't understand how a girl grinding on you to keep you from the bathroom advances their scam, if anything I'd think the move for them would have been to let you take a piss and take the opportunity to make themselves scarce without doing anything they alluded to.

Don't get me wrong, I don't support people alluding to or outright promising to do something in exchange for compensation and then altering the terms of the agreement after payment has been made. I'm just saying it's not clear that's what happened from your story. When things aren't clear, we tend to see things from our own perspectives. Customers might see it as a ROB situation, dancers might see it as a hustle. So I can see how a dancer might interpret it as an honest hustle rather than a rip off and view your attempts at recovering the money as an attempt to rip off the dancer.

Instead of posting a separate thread, why not clarify exactly what happened in the comments so the next person reading the review isn't left wondering if you're just a sucker or if the girls are ROB's? Specifically, why didn't they come back. Did they disappear? Just keep asking for more and more money? Outright tell you to fuck off? What?

@Dolfan fair point. At the end of the day, no, it doesn't *really* matter what we call it. I thought it might make for an interesting discussion. What's a hustle? What's an outright scam? Etc etc. I added that blurb from my review and the comment more as an example but intended for the thread to be more general and not specifically about my encounter.

I didn't go too in depth in that review as I thought it was already getting pretty long. But to address it a bit further she was not just discussing "after-work plans". She specifically mentioned getting a cab/uber together for us to have an "afterparty" and asked how many friends she should bring with us. Throughout the night, she would bring up this "afterparty" repeatedly and ask to be sent more (increasing each time) money to "pay off the bouncers" or anything else "so we could go". Confirming whatever amount was sent each time but playing dumb/not addressing me bringing up the previous amount already sent.

As far as the "blocking me from the bathrom" bit goes, we were in line waiting on an available room for more dances at the time, where they were probably going to ask me to send more money.

I'm happy to answer any lingering questions around that situation but again, I wanted the discussion to be more around "what do we consider a scam and what do we consider an honest hustle" more so than my specific situation. The money's more than likely gone and I'm OK with that. Life goes on.

I still don't get where the breakdown occurred. That piece is critical to determining if its a scam. Did they just keep asking for more money and eventually you wised up and stopped giving it to them, then they bailed, then yes I agree with you its a scam. If you paid up for all of their requests, and they agreed to meet a time/place and failed to show, again it's a scam.

As far as making for interesting discussion, I'm with ya. I'm not suggesting this was a dumb/bad post or anything, certainly better than the thinly veiled political bullshit folks love to post here. I'm just saying there's some nuance involved, and suggesting that having a detailed accounting of the events to use as an example makes the conversation much more interesting.

Bottom line, there will be differing opinions on where the line between hustle and scam is. Some guys here will call a girl a ROB for giving them what they consider a shitty dance, often simply because they feel entitled to finger a pussy or suck a tit or something. Others draw the line at an explicit promise not being met, like offering a blow job in the champagne room and then demanding another $200 once in the room. Others, like the commenter in your review, draw the line at physically taking money without consent, like physically removing it from your pocket. They'll be lots of gray area in between, but again the devil is in the details when trying to pinpoint the elements that constitute a ROB.

Write up something akin to a Miller test, polish it up and submit it as an article.

Definitely a scam. Of course a dancer would try to justify this kind of behavior. Some of them nowadays listen to too much Meg The Stallion and Kash Doll and have this entitled air about themselves and feel that men are supposed to just “give” them money because they ask for it.

You have to handle the situation the same way you would with a general contractor - no payment until the job is complete. Otherwise, you may not see them again.

Well, the breakdown occurred after I returned from the bathroom. They simply disappeared after that. I stayed around for another hour or so to see if they would pop up, as well as looked for them, but nope. This was right up until closing as well so if they had intended to come back to my hotel with me, it would have been the right time imo for an "afterparty".

And of course, everyone will have differing opinions on the matter. It's those differing opinions that I think make for a good discussion.

From your review, I would consider that club to be a clip joint, so I wouldn't want to go. If I did go, I would want to avoid those two dancers. But, since you, for whatever reason, didn't name them, I would not be able to avoid them.

How much were you drinking? It does seem like it was the beer zelling.

I'm actually surprised they didn't milk you for more. Feels like you would've kept the exchanges going as long as they kept the flirtations going.

At what point would you have stopped?

Because I guarantee had they went to a hotel with you, they would've expected to be tipped once at the hotel both before and at the end of the "party".

Let's consider two possible stories:

1. You were getting better and better dancing as you tipped more and more. You were getting a lot of "you're so handsome", "I like your touch", "maybe we could get together after the club closes". Later, when Mr. Happy was as ease, you regretted how much you'd spent. Clearly true that you are very handsome and have magic hands, but the part about maybe meeting up was inexcusable bullshit. So you decided that justified clawing back the money.

2. She said, "zelle me $500 and we'll meet up after the club closes." You zelle her $500. "No, wait, I need another $100." You zelle her another $100. "No wait, I need another $200." You zell her another $200 ....

Can you see why story 1 seems more plausible than story 2?

Not for nothing, but if you went on Friday, 11 doesn't close till Monday at like 9am or something. It's a 24hr club, opens at like 9pm on Wed and doesn't close till 9am on Monday. If you were still there at closing time, that's an impressive bender.

To answer the original question, depending on who you're talking to and the forum, amongst dancers the term "hustle" can fluidly refer to anything ranging from just working a lot and hard to manipulating customers into paying more to ripping them off.

Though exactly what happened between you and those dancers remains murky, I'd say you did get scammed. At the same time, you made yourself ridiculously easy to scam. I mean, you sort of served yourself up on a platter.

And that's not right, but it's part of the equation when you walk into a place where many not-right things can potentially occur (and, in fairness, to dancers as well as customers).

So, I don't blame you for being unhappy, but I think the degree to which you can complain and generate sympathy is limited.

As you said earlier... lesson learned.

I am sorry that happened to you. If you send me $500.00, you can come to my afterparty!

To me, deciding whether it was hustle or a scam is an interesting intellectual discussion. The correct answer may be, depends who you ask. Two people can see the same exact set of facts differently. Maybe that’s the lesson here? If that’s true, then @flap gave the best advice:

“You have to handle the situation the same way you would with a general contractor - no payment until the job is complete. Otherwise, you may not see them again.”

She may say one thing. You may hear something else. The only way to guarantee you’re both on the same page is not to pay until afterwards. I’ve paid ahead of time and gotten what was promised, but I recognized I was taking a risk. How and when each of us decides to take risks is on us. When you’re wrong, add it to the tuition bill.

@ww well, I had a *absolute* cut-off point, which was when I did stop.

@ilbbaicnl I see the point you're making, and its a fair one. Not at all what happened, just to be clear though. Also, to address the other point, I didn't name them because I didn't remember their names. Rarely do I keep a dancer's name in mind. Ayla Veronica is, presumably, her real name and cashapp. No idea what her stage name was.

@Dolfan I went Friday, and yes they close at 7AM. I got there around 1AM if I remember correctly. So, yes, I stayed a very long time.

@Call.Me.Ishamel fair, but I'm also not trying to complain or generate sympathy. Of course, I'm not *happy* I lost out on some money for nothing, but as I mentioned previously, I thought the wider topic could make for an interesting discussion.

@erg I have to admit this made me laugh a bit.

^ You do have to recognize to some extent the dancer is taking some risk in that arrangement too though. There are more than a few unscrupulous customers who'll attempt to take advantage of a post-pay situation. Strippers aren't protected via lien laws like GC's are.
I'm not advocating for pre-payment, just trying to add balance to the conversation.

doh, got ninjad. My comment was in response to Hank's.

Agreed, Dolfan. At some point, either customer or dancer is going to have to trust the other to live up to their end of the deal. It’s why regulars or clubs known for consistent mileage (hi low or med) are comforting.

@Elitis I didn't mean I wanted anyone's real name. I asked founder to remove it. Be aware you expose a stripper to potential life-ruining harassment and violence, but exposing her real name on the internet. Not a punishment to casual meet out to someone. But Veronica doesn't sound like a real last name, so maybe there's a way to use cash app without exposing your real name.

^ ugh, actually good point, I didn't think about that. Apologies. I'm unsure if there's a way to use a name other than your real one on cashapp, so I have no way of knowing whether that is or isn't her's. Though, in latin culture it's common to have two "first" names so that could be the case or a middle name.

Once I was at a club and a dancer came up to me to chat. She began to tell me how she could do more OTC, is very selective who she's with and thinks she could trust me. She asked if I was interested. I played along and asked for some details. She was very reluctant to say anything more and suggested we get to know each other better. O.K. how do we do that? Her answer - we can do a series of dances and/or VIP's. My answer - is there any other way? She looked pissed. I then said, "No thanks, good night." No doubt she' was a scam artist.

Sorry? You paid for something, then you reported the transactions and froze your card, and you think someone else is the scammer? But definitely not you??

The actual FUCK?

^ yes, I paid ahead of time for a service I didn't and was never going to receive.

So, new question to add to the discussion. For all the dancers who think I'm in the wrong (I disagree, of course, but you're allowed to have your opinion), have you ever alluded to or outright told customers extras were available if they paid you beforehand and then not gone through with it?

If so, why? Do you think that was a fair hustle? Did you give them their money back?

Whether you think I'm in the right or wrong, just add to the discussion please.

I had a dancer girl that felt I was not going to be satisfied with her service and she gave me my money back. ever since then I have been tipping her totaling way in excess of what I originally paid her (that she did refund to me...)

This seems apropos: https://www.instagram.com/p/C0DGsIvpXC5/

"have you ever alluded to or outright told customers extras were available if they paid you beforehand and then not gone through with it?"

Obviously I'm not a dancer, but there is a huge difference between "alluding to" and "outright telling" someone that extras were available. I assume the vast majority of strippers "allude" to sexual activities at some point in there career, a much much lower percentage of them actually tell a customer they are open to extras.

There are a lot of customers that go to strip clubs specifically for the fantasy that is created by dancers alluding to sexual activities while flirting with them. Many customers want this allusion and flirtation even though they would never actually follow through with it even if the dancer was ready and willing because they are in a committed relationship or just not wanting to do p4p. That is why it is such an effective sales tactic , "hustle" or whatever you want to call it.

It almost never goes well if you're using credit cards and phone cash apps in a stripclub.

If you're a regular reader of reviews/discussions, you see, over and over, complaints that the stripper was too mechanical. Or, that she didn't want to spend much time hanging out, for free of course, because the PL's wit, charm and insights are priceless. All PLs expect some degree of role play from strippers. If PLs can claw back payment, whenever they feel disappointed there wasn't enough reality in the role play, the strip club industry would be much reduced, and perhaps not viable at all. I think that explains the reaction you're getting in the stripper posts. They are not specifically endorsing the unclear level of scamming you were targeted with. I think the typical thing is, it's the PL who brings up dating or OTC. Many, maybe most, strippers will say, maybe at some point we cam do that. I think they feel that goes along with pretending we are not as fugly and boring as we are. Or that they don't have to swallow hard, so as not to throw up a little in their mouths when we touch them. In 500+ visits to many different clubs, I've never had a stripper offer me OTC , or even allude to it, and not follow through.

There was one stripper who told me she wanted to be my girlfriend. She even said I could stop working, and she would support us both by stripping. Oh, and have my baby. But, before we had our first date outside the club, she told me she loved me, and wanted me to tell her I loved her. I told her it was way too fast for us to be talking about love. After that, she didn't even want to sell me a single dance. But, it was my own fault OTC didn't happen, failure to love her.

^ re: "I think that explains the reaction you're getting in the stripper posts. They are not specifically endorsing the unclear level of scamming you were targeted with. I think the typical thing is, it's the PL who brings up dating or OTC."

They may or may not be specifically endorsing my situation. Unless they actually add to the discussion or ask for clarification, that remains unclear. But, all in all, fair point. In their shoes, I suppose it's easy to assume I'm just another customer trying to screw someone over.

On the other hand, it would be just as simple to ask and find out:

I did not bring the OTC topic up with this dancer at all. She did.

Trying to get your money back because a dance wasn't as high mileage as you wanted it to be is one thing. Trying to get your money back because a service you, rightly or wrongly, smartly or foolishly, paid for ahead of time was never provided is another thing.

Obviously, I have my stance on both my specific situation and the larger topic at hand, and I expect dancers to side with dancers in general. This is fine. I only ask that they add to the discussion.

^ Hard to agree with you saying that it’s always the PL bringing up OTC, here in South Florida it’s often the girls that will bring it up, especially if you’re a known player at the club they work at.

Stripper participation in discussions here is pretty hit or miss. You'd probably have better chances of responses on some of the stripping-related subreddits.

I don't know if there's any chance the payment processor might refer your complaint to law enforcement for investigation. If you tipped 3+ figures, probably going to be suspicions that it wasn't just for them to come by and look at your etchings. Hypothetically, seems like LE could investigate the strippers for fraud, or you as a john, or both. Even if the strippers didn't explicitly offer you OTC sex, they might say they did, to have more to plea bargain with. Outside chance you might end up looking like the guy who called the cops to report his illegal drugs were stolen.