The importance of maintaining discipline

Good policy to have. But you better have mother thumb and her four daughters ready. Some girls do react that way.

Lucky she just walked sometimes they have a pimp ready to threaten you as they walk out. How did she Tracey to the room, with you or her own transportation?

^Freakin auto spell
Not Tracey travel

Yep. She was going to bail at some point anyway. Best done at the start.

I've walked out of VIP rooms I've already paid for because she wanted the tip up front on fortunately few occasions. No point in throwing good money after bad.

Damn Rick if you’d start taking a shower before all these meet ups these girls may quit bailing on you.

Way to go on being on top of things and glad it didn’t turn out any worse for you. One of the worst stories I ever heard was back in the day on the old ASPD website, some guy had a repeat OTC session with a stripper he knew, when he left the session (from his hotel room) he woke up in the emergency room because as he exited he was konked on the head, he blacked out, and he was robbed. Luckily they didn’t steal his car, just his wallet.

===> "Yep. She was going to bail at some point anyway."

Agreed. But I'll admit that this one was more challenging to maintain discipline with as she was so damned sexy.

^^^ yeah that would be hard especially when you dropped money for the hotel and took the time to set everything up. I for one would not likely be able to set something up with someone else the very next day.

Agreed, sunk costs are sunk. It sucks to lose the time & money spent, but throwing more at it will just increase the damages on both fronts. I don't have a lot of experience paying up front, but what little I have hasn't worked out well. I won't completely rule out never paying up front again, but I'd like to think in your situation I'd have done the same.

What's funny to me is there's a decent chance she walked away thinking exactly the same thing. She's happy she was disciplined and didn't do anything without getting the money up front, because in her experience guys are reluctant to pay after. Now, whether it was her performance that causes that reluctance is another matter entirely and I strongly suspect you're instincts are correct. But if she's got anyone in her life she talks to about such things, online or otherwise, she's probably telling a similar story about the guy she thought was gonna stiff her. Of course she could have straight up planned to take the money and run, but I feel like that's less likely.

Boy it certainly is going to be interesting next time you run into her inside the club.

You were in the room so nobody else can speak to how things went down with any authority on the matter.

For me, each situation is different. If she's there because we already talked things out but maybe she's still skittish, I lose nothing by handing over the money upfront. There's not much worse than having some awkward experience because she's preoccupied. If the girl takes the money and jumps out the window like spiderwoman, then I just have a funny story for later. Now if she takes the money and ends up ditching me (which has only happened to me once with two girls in a bizarrely funny way) then that's on me for not reading the situation better. And in the one case I'd already had my fun with both and was kinda glad to be rid of them lol, so I don't really count that.

I get bored and have a pretty good hit rate, so if I get a good story out of it I'll take a loss here or there. If you're good with the outcome, then it's your money and we've all got our own process.

Hearing stories about how Cardi B uses to roofie guys in a hotel room then rob them led me to only do. OTC with girls I know really well….

Interesting thread. In my hooker-fucking experience, I have always been asked to pay first... whether in a brothel, attending a local in-call, or ordering up to my hotel room. With ITC, I always pay after, but I understand that local club policy may affect this. Is this a case of ITC rules apply to OTC dates with dancers? Or do the broader hooker-scape rules come into play once you're out of the club? Maybe worth a thread on its own...

===> "She's happy she was disciplined and didn't do anything without getting the money up front, because in her experience guys are reluctant to pay after."

I hear this drew, but I've never bought this argument. How many guys set up OTC in a decent hotel and then decide not to pay when the deed is done, especially when they have the money to do so? I can't imagine that this is common as most guys don't want the attention that any associated drama would bring. The only way this girl is running into this often is if she's half assing it at best. If she is sitting somewhere telling the same story then she's doing so knowing that she's full of shit.

Sorry, that should have been directed at Dolfan, not Drew.

It’s tough to do especially when you already got the room. But your dead on, usually something is up when they try that. In America we do the service first then comes the money there’s a reason for that.

I'm less worried about the before/after payment (I've done both with seldom an issue), but have thought about the pimp/bf hanging outside the door. The last thing I ever want is to set myself up for a robbery situation. How to minimize that for OTC, or for an escort/stripper at my home? My answer so far is not having done OTC yet, and definitely not my home.

Even though it'd increase the sunk cost, I figured my safest method would be to meet her OTC in the lobby, in the bar, or out front (to verify her solo arrival) at a 5-star hotel with elevator key-card security. Too paranoid? Other safety suggestions PLs have used?

Now look, every so often I'll run across a girl who seems to have a legitimate concern about this. You can tell with the body language and general hesitancy. But when that happens, IME the girl doesn't immediately bolt. Instead she reluctantly hangs around for a few moments hoping that the impasse will break. When that happens, I'll usually offer up some compromise, like putting the money out in the open (but not easy to grab and run) or offering half upfront. When the girl is legit, one of these approaches will usually do the trick.

There's a reason why this girl just bolted the moment she realized that I wouldn't hand it all over upfront. At best she was intending to half ass the encounter and she damned well knew that I wouldn't be inclined to pay her when it was over.

@Wall: I hear what you're saying, but sadly I've learned the hard way that paying upfront rarely goes well. I've never had a girl simply dash for the door, but in a high % of instances it resulted in bad overall experiences.

The best way to get screwed in any business transaction is to pay 100% of the balance before completion of the job.

@Rod: Worries about pimps/bfs are way overblown. I've done this too many times to count and I've never had anyone hanging around outside my door. If anything, a lot of these girls are doing OTC on the QT, with their SOs non the wiser.

If only the Better Business Bureau had accreditation for hookers.

I've heard plenty of stories about guys stiffing providers, after... uh.. first stiffing them. That's why girls often request placing the "donation" in an envelope in plain view before a session starts. Seems smart, but actually still may not be enough precaution. I've had girls tell me guys deliberately shorted them
(found when counting the money after the dude left). Another guy apparently reversed a Venmo on a girl - Sheesh!

I dunno, the whole situation seems rife with opportunities for rip-offs in both directions. To Wallanon's point, maybe better to get philosophical about it. Realize there'll be a certain amount of rip-off slop in this under-the-table endeavor that you'll never completely remove. Better to release your stress and agitation by never seeing that person again, getting a fun story out of it, and moving on.

Even if "disciplined" like Rickdugan, you're still out sunk-cost dollars either way. Actually, he was guaranteed to lose his upfront charge ($100+ for the room and his time, minimally?) plus a potentially amazing experience with a total hottie, all to avoid the "possible" loss of an additional $400. Of course, there's the emotional processing cost of experiencing a rip-off. But maybe that can be lessened by thinking of it more like a door charge when paying to play. I've lost count the number of times I've paid $20 (or $50 if Vegas) to enter a club (girls unseen), plus a $10 drink, only to walk out a half-hour later when no girls came close to striking my fancy. You pays your money and takes your chances. C'est la vie, and all that...

Mark - Amen, brother. In a perfect world, there would be BBB accreditation - or some governing oversight as with many other nations.

You did the right thing, Rick. And now you have $400 to spend on a better choice. I usually (not always) won't even try to get an OTC date until we have had at least some ITC fun 1st. That way, I know she's likely to delivery and she knows I'm likely to pay.

But I had to lose several thousand dollars over my 1st 10-ish PL years before I was able to learn the lesson. It's the same in the sugar-dating world, too. If she demands the allowance 1st, we don't have a meeting of the minds and lack the trust needed to have a lasting arrangement. Ironically, when I do have to toss out a 1st time SB for this, I usually head to my nearest extras club and drop "her" allowance on the 1st hot stripper that can get me into VIP for ITC fun.

As for safety when meeting for OTC (or a sugar date), I try to pick a location where I can see her entering the property - and so see how she got there. If it's my home, my Ring cameras tell me everything I need to know. If I'm at a hotel, I'll try to be in the lobby when she arrives, or at least peek down the hallway before I close the door. And of course, LOCK the door, throw the deadbolt, etc. before you get started.

Thanks, Rick. Good to know pimps/bfs waiting to pound the shit out of me is not a regular thing. And to your point, my general experience has been dancers do what they do without any bf assistance/knowledge. Probably better for all concerned...

Could’ve been the right decision, who knows? I wasn’t there so can’t offer any criticisms of this particular instance. However, I do take issue with a general premise that it is always a bad idea to pay upfront. I’ve had quite a few occasions where the girl has asked for payment upfront and I have complied.

I’ve also had occasions where I refused. You just have to go with your instincts and the vibe you may be getting. I lost count of the number of OTCs I have done a long time ago, but I have only been actually burned once paying upfront. On that one, I actually went against my gut instinct, but it was worth a shot because it was two very hot girls (and it was in a low cost of living area, so no, I was not out of a lot of money).

@rick said "If she is sitting somewhere telling the same story then she's doing so knowing that she's full of shit."

& I hear that but it makes it no less likely in my mind. Either because she's directly full of shit, or because she's convinced herself into being the victim and now believes the bullshit conclusions of her self deception.

lol @ spiderwoman.

nice save, rick.
it took me exactly once getting stiffed for a room before making sure they show up, show them the money, and confirm they'll be paid after prior to checking in.

To contradict myself, I will sometimes strippers that I vibe to put them at ease I’ll just give them the money to start out just so they aren’t worried about anything. They probably don’t want to have their guard up to maybe have to have a tough conversation so I try to elimante that so they can relax. But these are girls who I know already well enough for trust and I already got awesome dances from.

Some random girl, Idk. To try to see it form their end they are with some big guy they can’t win in a fight with, you could run off like some piece of shits their past may have. To see it from our side, once they have the money, they could just walk away. What are you gonna do tackle her? Fucking legal nightmare, you gotta let it go. I think it goes back to the vibe you have and the vibe she has to make this all a complete non issue.

===> "Actually, he was guaranteed to lose his upfront charge ($100+ for the room and his time, minimally?) plus a potentially amazing experience with a total hottie, all to avoid the "possible" loss of an additional $400."

Nah, the probable outcomes were not nearly as balanced as this would imply. The second she just bolted, I knew that I had just dodged a bullet.

Remember that she had also invested time and energy in leaving the club when I did and coming to my hotel. If she was willing to simply bolt after getting to that point, it was because she had no intention of seeing it through. In my ample experience in dealing with these girls, the legit ones don't behave that way - they need to money and look for a way to work things out. I trust my read on this one. I'm thoroughly convinced that she bolted without a word because she realized that whatever game she was planning wasn't going to work, so she quickly cut bait.

^ I was curious and asked you before did you travel to the notel together or did you take separate cars, because if she traveled in her own vehicle she most likely was planning to rob you.

^ She was in her own vehicle.

She likely didn’t have good intentions if I were you I wouldn’t be so sure it wasn’t premeditated

I had a paranoid SB once who asked me to see the $ before we got started, which I did. She was fine after that and we went about our business. The day before I asked what she like to drink to which she replied "wine but nothing that has been opened. I need to watch you open it." She was a strange one but really pretty and a killer body.

I don’t meet up with girls unless we at least kind of know each other so haven’t had that problem. If you’ve seen them a few times in the club you’re less likely to get robbed.

I wonder if she used exactly the same title for her post about this on stripperweb.

“Once bitten twice shy”

“The best way to get screwed in any business transaction is to pay 100% of the balance before completion of the job”

I’ve often posted that I pretty-much have a zero-tolerance-policy w.r.t. upfront-payment – w.r.t. ITC, the clubs I hit don’t have a prepay requirement except for the room-fee; so it can be risky if the dancer implements this requirement – paying upfront is no guarantee one will get shafted; but doing-so leaves one with no leverage and completely at the mercy/whim of the dancer – I haven’t paid upfront too-many times; but of the few times I did, enough of them turned out to be ROB,s or dancers that sucked and why they wanted the $$$ upfront – this is why I also never agree to multiple dances upfront.

If a dancer already has your $$$, then she doesn’t have any $kin in the game – if a PL has already paid for a VIP room; then he already has some skin in the game and money to lose; i.e. not as likely he’s not willing to pay – having said this, just as much as it sucks for custies to have their $$$ taken, so does for dancers – the best I’ll do is show them I have the $$$; which is no guarantee for them; but at least it’s something and it’s the best I’ll do – it can be argued that paying half upfront is a viable compromise; and it may be; but I abstain from this also – let’s say we agree on $400; in my mind it’s worthwhile for the ROB to walk away w/ an-easy-$200 w/o having to do anything; than put out for the whole $400.

Most of my PL-experience is ITC – I’ve never been much of an OTCer – in the case of OTC I might be more tempted to pay the $$$ upfront b/c:

+ ITC she has the staff/bouncers to back her up w.r.t. non-payment – no guarantee she would get the $$$; but plenty of inexperienced PLs get easily intimidated via this factor and many dancers count on this

+ me liking variety; ITC I can easily pass on a dancer demanding-upfront-payment and get w/ another one or just hit another club


So “in my mind” w.r.t. OTC there is less of a chance for her to not follow thru once she has your payment but then again many PLs have more to lose w.r.t. making a scene in a hotel and possibly having the cops called whereas the ROB may not give a f***; etc.

So w.r.t. ITC I pretty-much have a zero-tolerance upfront-payment b/c the dancer then holds all the cards and she will usually have the club to back her up – OTC I’d likely wouldn’t be as militant about it but then again I haven’t done much of it and haven’t really been burned as I have ITC.

I can def see an OTC girl being more worried about not being paid; and actually having more instances of not being paid; per the what I posted above w.r.t. not having the club to back her up; etc - i.e. OTC she's basically on her own.

w.r.t. ITC: I usually let her know upfront b/f agreeing to VIP that I don't pay till the end; but I can see this being more problematic w.r.t. setting up OTC.

Honestly I usually pay up front and I've screwed maybe 2-3 times out of a large number. Those 2-3 times were "first time meeting" girls who I had never interacted with before. Now I don't do anything ITC or OTC without an established relationship/trust.

man maintaining discipline is HARD. About half as hard as my dick. I haven't been to a stripper club in days and I'm ready to explode. But I'm waiting till I get my nice watch, a new phone and my hair done. Won't do anything before that. Just hope it's far before summer is over.

Discipline is key when dealing with bitches

Dolfan, the problem is many clubs require paying up fromt for the dances. This means the PL has everytbing to lose. Any illegal extras are basically purely up to the dancers discretion... now if the dancer wants repeat business she will probably follow through on any promises made. But if she doesnt care or somehow thinks you won’t be getting more dances, she might not live up to her bargain.
I have had dancers who for instance let me touch the pussy in 1st and 2nd dance but not the 3rd, maybe the no was playful but its still a no