Nice guys finish last - even in strip clubs

The entire "nice guy" issue to many women is just nonsense, basically its actually a bunch of spineless jellyfish wusses who hide behind the mantra "chicks hate nice guys'". Such "nice guys", well they are never be the strong, decisive, and manly men (yeah right)

"Bella 21" (Pink site "Oh no, not the "Nice Guy" crap again, boo hoo" 12-15-07 ) calls the entire issue one really concerning "pussy fucking doormats" and calls her ex typical of this trend, he is a "weenie douchebag" and she quotes him from one of his latest rants on this matter:

BEGIN QUOTE

Title: Dear __, Maybe this letter is for you. Read it and find out.

I hear people ask this question often, so I thought I'd take a minute to explain things to the ladies out there that haven't figured it out.

"What happened to all the nice guys?"

The answer is simple: you did.

See, if you think back, really hard, you might vaguely remember a Platonic guy pal who always seemed to want to spend time with you. He'd tag along with you when you went shopping, stop by your place for a movie when you were lonely but didn't feel like going out, always return missed calls from you within a few hours, blow off anyone or anything just to spend time with you, or even sit there and hold you while you sobbed and told him about how horribly the (other) guy that you were fucking treated you.

At the time, you probably joked with your girlfriends about how he was a little puppy dog, always following you around, trying to do things to get you to pay attention to him. They probably teased you because they thought he had a crush on you. Given that his behavior was, admittedly, a little pathetic, you vehemently denied having any romantic feelings for him, and buttressed your position by claiming that you were "just friends." Besides, he totally wasn't your type. I mean, he was a little too short, or too bald, or too fat, or too poor, or didn't know how to dress himself, or basically be or do any of the things that your tall, good-looking, fit, rich, stylish boyfriend at the time pulled off with such ease.

Eventually, your Platonic buddy drifted away, as your relationship with the boyfriend got more serious and spending time with this other guy was, admittedly, a little weird, if you weren't dating him. More time passed, and the boyfriend eventually cheated on you, or became boring, or you realized that the things that attracted you to him weren't the kinds of things that make for a good, long-term relationship. So, now, you're single again, and after having tried the bar scene for several months having only encountered players and douche bags, you wonder, "What happened to all the nice guys?"

Well, once again, you did.

You ignored the nice guy. You used him for emotional intimacy without reciprocating, in kind, with physical intimacy. You laughed at his consideration and resented his devotion. You valued the aloof boyfriend more than the attentive "just-a-" friend. Eventually, he took the hint and moved on with his life. He probably came to realize, one day, that women aren't really attracted to guys who hold doors open; or make dinners just because; or buy you a Christmas gift that you mentioned, in passing, that you really wanted five months ago; or listen when you're upset; or hold you when you cry. He came to realize that, if he wanted a woman like you, he'd have to act more like the boyfriend that you had. He probably cleaned up his look, started making some money, and generally acted like more of an asshole than he ever wanted to be.

Fact is, now, he's probably getting laid, and in a way, your ultimate rejection of him is to thank for that. And I'm sorry that it took the complete absence of "nice guys" in your life for you to realize that you missed them and wanted them. Most women will only have a handful of nice guys stumble into their lives, if that.

So, if you're looking for a nice guy, here's what you do:

1.) Build a time machine. 2.) Go back a few years and pull your head out of your ass. 3.) Take a look at what's right in front of you and grab ahold of it.

I suppose the other possibility is that you STILL don't really want a nice guy, but you feel the social pressure to at least appear to have matured beyond your infantile taste in men. In which case, you might be in luck, because the nice guy you claim to want has, in reality, shed his nice guy mantle and is out there looking to unleash his cynicism and resentment onto someone just like you.

If you were five years younger.

So, please: either stop misrepresenting what you want, or own up to the fact that you've fucked yourself over. You're getting older, after all. It's time to excise the bullshit and deal with reality. You didn't want a nice guy then, and he's probably a little pisseed at you, now.

END QUOTE

Dude, what is your fascination with Stripper Web? You take posts out of context and drop them here with alarming frequency. If guys want to read over there they can. What's the problem? Did you get your dick slapped by the mods over there so now you want to try and import stuff to an unmoderated board? I just don't get it. We are all grown ups here and we are perfectly capable of logging in to whatever site we feel like viewing.

Is it that hard to start a topic here without the aid of an out-of-context quote from another board.

"'What happened to all the nice guys?' The answer is simple: you did."

David - great quote, I love it.

In regard to the "xdamage" quote, to keep the "little toadie" (Blue site nickname used by several posters for this relentless ass-kisser) happy, instead of reproducing in here all 380 other posts (16 pages over 3 weeks) to give this post by "xdamage" context, I will give the precise and complete cite for the thread: "Blue site, Junkie forum, Off topic discussion, General board, Women; The thread".

In regards to "Bella 21", there are only 49 other posts in that thread, so anyone who wants context can look at those posts at "Stripper Web (pink site), Off Topic discussions, The Lounge "Oh no, not the "Nice Guy" crap again, boo hoo"

In addition the quote from Bella 21's "ex" apparently was actually sourced from THE BEST OF CRAIGS list or from elsewhere on the world wide web, so its been widely distributed, therefore the "context" now is arguably the entire internet.

By the way, I've never made a single post at anytime (past or present) to the strippperweb.com pink site or blue site. However I enjoy reading posts and have found a number of posters very interesting including Melonie, Shot, Xdamage and 10 to 15 others, both dancers and customers.

Well I just assumed that you found it interesting since you keep dragging it over here, out of context.Why not join the site and contribute to the actual threads? If these guys want to read Stripper Web they know where to find it.

Do you have any original thoughts or do you just like lifting quotes?

quoting poster "Shot" on 11-22-07 in the the pink site "re:women" thread

"Yoda: SMH man. You are acting like a woman recently."

"You take posts out of context"

Name any posts taken out of context

Hey, Yoda:

If you don't like David9999's threads/posts/cut-and-paste/whatever then don't read them. Pretty simple, huh?

So, you think somebody reads them? You're joking, right?

Yoda, who the fuck do you think you are telling someone on a PAID site what the fuck they can and cannot post?

Go to fucking hell you ass-kssing suck up. I'm sick of your utter bullshit

This isn't the Soviet Union you piece of shit

Well, I read it. I read every word. I'm new here. I'm trying to figure out how to improve mileage while cutting costs. This tread didn't help in that regard.

NEXT!

If you have multiple sisters, I doubt you'll be acting like too much of a nice guy. That sounds like the best way to screwed over and not get anything you really want. Unless you were lucky and had very nice sisters. For me, it was like a political game with lots of shouting, yelling, and bargaining. Other times though, things were peaceful. Now with my younger brother, we were fighting about every day. However we were good friends, we just settled things the old fashioned way. That was fine with me, he always lost. One of my sisters accused us of conspiring against her a few times. Total nonsense. We were always nice guys

Talking about nice guys, if you listened to one of my sisters describe my brother and me at times, you would think we were the sum of all evil. We were actually quite nice though. We just didn't let people take advantage of us. Give us crap and we would give it back a whole lot worse in devious ways I heard. I think all that was way overblown. My younger brother and I settled our differences a lot faster. We would fight. I guess we grew out of that phase after a while. I hear stories about that too. The stories make it sound like I'm lucky I didn't kill someone. I thought of myself as a nice guy but maybe I'm not compared to some guys who put girls on pedestals.

Xdamage statement aside from being on of the most perceptive summaries I've seen on this issue makes a key point "What people really want is often deep seated in their biology, but what they think they want doesn't always match what is really driving them."

Point being inner urges can overwhelm what they (sincerely) think and believe what they want to do - for both men and women. This is precisely why I never hold it against women for their (often) relentless quest for jerks, bad boys, or alpha male types - nor should they hold against us men for us endless desire to sleep with every woman in town

On the biology issue, ie the social biology or evolutionary biology, I've connected many of the dots in this area and been doing it for years - and its not from some fucking textbook

I'll match my intelligence against this one dimensional boring "who cares" "no one is interested" " case closed" "shut the discussion down" prick Yoda anytime

Now for some fat ass fuck whoremonger piece of crap like Yoda to accuse me of not having "original thoughts" on any topics, that is beyond laughable - GO AND FUCKING READ MY WHAT 30 to maybe 50 POSTS ON THAT EXACT SUBJECT alone, e.g. evolutionary biology and the way it ties together with many ongoing open issues today - my own ideas you human piece of slime

"Well, I read it. I read every word. I'm new here. I'm trying to figure out how to improve mileage while cutting costs. This tread didn't help in that regard."<<<

Don't be a nice guy, then! For whatever reason there are strippers who prefer a true asshole . . . how does that improve mileage while cutting costs? Make being a true asshole a true part of yourself and you should find out first hand!

NEXT! :)

The amazing this is in regards to stripper-customer ATF "relationships" or pseudo relationships or whatever tag one puts on them - is how relevant the entire "nice guy" issue (and its unquestionable connection to "chemistry") actually still is. Yes, its a parallel universe generally seperate from reality, but women tend to follow the same somewhat predictable patterns even in this arguably alternate reality

Yes "chemistry" can and does matter in those cases for certain people, though obviously at a different level than real life

So one will see the "nice guy" issue being brought up again and again on any threads dealing with dancers - despite the protestations of dancers such as Bella 21" and their nearly alway boring and predictable "toadie" suckups and ass-kissers who tag along like the lengendary frog

When you lift a post out of it's surrounding thread and drop it here that is out of context. A single post in and of itself means nothing if people haven't read the thread. Here's an idea. If you want to insult me try coming up with something of your own. Talk about gutless...

Yoda: Not buying that logic. Plenty of posts I've read make sense stand alone. Plus he pointed back to the thread if anyone thought they needed to see the context.

Like I say, if you don't like his stuff don't read it. It's really that simple.

David9999, I have to admit I'm skimming your posts lately. You seem to be a one topic poster, which is cool if that is all you want to be, just be aware most people here get bored with that pretty quickly, and it may earn some hostility.

Anyway, your one topic seems to be women are biologically/genetically engineered to desire "alpha male seed spreaders", i.e. assholes. I understand your point, and we've argued this before, but to be a valid point I'd need to see some valid cross cultural data, and still think that it would have to actually be more prevalent in more primitive societies as opposed to less primitive. My theory is that with a full belly and a roof over their heads women can afford to indulge in a badboy fantasy on occasion, but when survival of them and their offspring is at stake an absent or unreliable male is too big a risk to take.

Now as for one other point I've made in the socialization meme I keep pushing I've always wanted to ask what happened to the Swedes? a scant 1,000 years ago, a blink in evolutionary terms, they were Vikings, the scourge of Europe. Now they are the very model of pacifism, neutrality, and the socialist nanny state. So did they evolve in 1,000 years?

Well bobby thats not what chat boards are about. I disagree with a lot of what people write but I still come here to read opposing opinions. What it boils down to is that I am curious as to why David is so obsessed with lifting quotes from a board that he doesn't participate in. SW is a moderated board where both dancers and customers participate. The difference between that board and this is that flame posts get moderated. Could that be the reason why David would rather lift posts and dump them here rather than simply participate over there? I wonder....

Yoda, go fuck yourself, Pretty Simple, Huh?

I've avoided this discussion largely because I disagree with the premise. In my experience nice guys ultimately finish first. Or to put it another way, the meek shall inherit the earth. IMO they already have. The nice guys end up being hthe happiest. Ignore that at your own peril.

Yeah, even slaves can be very happy. I'd rather be unhappy if that is your idea of finishing first. IME, there are an unusual number of low lifes at the top. Yes, there are good guys like my former employer--but, he seemed like the exception. Another exception was a Mr. Herman Chanin. He actually created wealth for himself and others--a real shock. Oops, he got screwed in the end thanks to the courts. I think he might have kept some of his wealth---I guess some people would consider that finishing first. He told me before the courts he really liked people, which was very easy to believe, and now he is much more distrusting and fearful.

Jablake, let me explain. When I was in high school and college, I had a serious relationship with a very attractive girl who ultimately dumped me for a bad boy. I became very bitter over the experience and started playing the bad boy role, which I did for years. I had some sharp girls but was never happy, because I was an asshole and deep down inside I knew it. I didn't start being happy until I dropped that role and went back to being a nice guy. And what I learned from that experience is that I'm not interested in the girls who are attracted to the bad boys, they're shallow , immature and uninteresting no matter how good looking.

Later in life I used to chase the almighty dollar and compare myself to others. But eventually I matured enough to realize that's a no-win game, because no matter how much you have there's always someone else with more. I didn't truly learn to be happy until I realized that the happiest people are those who want what they have, not those who strive to have what they want. Money isn't the source of happiness, not even close. I no onger measure success, mine or anyone elses, in terms of money. I think that's the most important lesson I've learned in this life. I hope someday you learn that too.

I think it is true that females tend to trample "nice guys" and that a genuinely "giving" person is not going to get very far with most attractive women. This is a huge iceberg, only the tip of which has been touched. I guess, to put it simply, I'm just disagreeing with FONDL. I personally learned "the hard way" that being "nice" (at least, how I defined it at the time) wouldn't work to land any girl that I wanted, but being "a jerk" to her would. I've come to appreciate that lesson over and over in life, not only with women.

Yode- Perhaps he brings them here to dicuss them since you really can't say whatever you feel like on that site.

Nice guys finish last? Depends on the definition of a nice guy...I guess. Seems elusive as we all have good traits and bad traits. I am nice and courteous to people unless they give me reason to act in another way.

I am nice to others for me and my own integrity. Not for their benefit. Once I grew up and accepted this things changed a great deal for me. I use to get trampled by women...I was one of those guys. Doesn't happen anymore. I am still a gentleman and an attentive boyfriend, but I also don't allow anyone to take advantage of me.

This can have a powerful effect on a woman. Just when she thinks she has me where she wants me and starts to take me for granted...well...now I walk out the door. Once you walk out the door on her and truly are a great guy...she will come following. Kind of funny how that works out.

I guess I have taken many negative experiences and learned and improved myself as opposed to getting bitter. I don't see the benefit in bitterness. I don't think nice guys finish last as a rule. I do think that guys that obsess over being "nice guy" do indeed get nowhere. But that is something different.

Hi FONDL,

Thank you for the explanation. I agree with you.

I was thinking in terms of my success or lack thereof as well as other peoples. It would have been easy to make a lot more money if that was the end all be all. Don't get me wrong. I consider myself to be a money grubber, but imo that doesn't mean making the dollar gets first billing.

One of my bosses believed he had a right to steal and in some cases I definitely agreed with him, but those are rare limited circumstances. His opinion was that if you break one law then you should be willing to break all laws. He was a tough bright man, but I found that thinking brain dead and immoral.

Anyway, he was ripping off a customer and of all the people for the customer to horse collar he chooses me. :( I told him that I was just a laborer, but he said that wasn't true. Anyway, I explained that the boss must feel there was some legitmate reason for stealing. IOWs, What did the customer do wrong? As it turned out the customer didn't do anything wrong and the boss just over promised and thought he could bully his way out of the situation. I was very disappointed in him and after a yelling match with plenty of threats and cursing he did complete the job as initially agreed. It just stunned that he believed that he had the absolute right to steal. He was stunned that I didn't agree with him because I have very little respect for the law.

In my old age I've gotten so bitter that I was thinking maybe the boss was right afterall. :(

I think the topic should read "nice guys finish last - only in strip clubs"

There are numerous examples of nice guys succeeding in life, whether it be in business, sports, or entertainment. But nice guys succeeding with strippers - I would say it rarely happens. Maybe in the club, polite guys may get a lot of attention, but at a monetary cost. And they have absolutely zero chance with a serious relationship with a stripper.

We can debate the reasons why strippers are attracted to jerks and bad boys until the end of time - but it happens. Accept it. My ATF is the sweetest girl imaginable but yet she goes home and fucks her unemployed, abusive, alcoholic boyfriend. I've accepted that fact, have stopped trying to be the white knight, and am happier for it.

There is a definition.

By all indicators the near universal definition women use in advanced societies (in a dating sense) to describe a "nice guy" would be along the lines of: a "noncontrolling, sincere, honest, non-violent and monogamous male". Now the issue gets a bit of confusing because there happens to be a subset of these males that may have characteristics of a wuss, may in fact be spineless, and/or have very indecisive marshmellow like personalities - all of which then allows posters like Bella 21 to pronounce the entire "nice guy" issue as really one of "pussy fucking doormats"

That (has me on ignore now) 300 LB FAT FUCK "Yoda" knows full well what would happen to the "discussion" if I posted anything related to this topic on the pink site or even the (purportedly customer friendly) blue site. Since his cheapo and (mostly) arrogant bitch dancer friends will not pay to post on this site and since Yoda's brain is limited - he cannot refute my arguments and instead must simply attempt to shut down the topic, this on a paid site.

So lets say hypothetically you get 100 traditional "nice guys" in a room, Ok so maybe 10 of them are in fact "pussy fucking doormats" and women with good reason have a reason to be repelled by them - but that doesn't explain the issue itself.

The quotes I started this thread with were posted as a discussion point or reference point, with the idea that this might draw-in substantive discussion (which it finally has) of some of the points made. I posted them because they were extremely perceptive and articulate on this issue

Plus they were labeled very clearly as QUOTES and where they ended, so they are very easy to skip over if one chose that.

In fact an average literate 6th grader could look at the first 2 posts in the thread, get the gist of the discussion, and within what, maybe 5 to 10 seconds either decide to read it all, or opt out

YODA OF COURSE SPECIALIZES IN MAKING THE ARGUMENT ABOUT THE ARGUMENT -its his stock in trade all over the net.

"Yode- Perhaps he brings them here to dicuss them since you really can't say whatever you feel like on that site."

That is certainly a major reason

Here is some others

1. The pink site being a non-paid site has a huge volume of posts, so anyone interested in strip clubs will alot of thoughts and ideas and perspective from that site, from dancers, and even from customers. Ok it can get nasty but the posts can be interesting - and sometimes very useful

2. Discussions all over the net often begin with a quote or cite from another source that provides a COMMON FRAME OF REFERENCE for posters to refer to, and that can help any threads discussion

3. While Yoda may be a miserable fuck and with limited brainpower in certain matters, I don't believe he is so stupid that he doesn't already know about your point that "you really can't say whatever you feel like on that site". Ok you might be able to say it, but what follows will be not a dicussion but a shouting match. Yoda as a classic ass-kissing toadie has taken it upon himself to be the defender of his dancer friends on the Pink Site

"Yode- Perhaps he brings them here to dicuss them since you really can't say whatever you feel like on that site."

That is certainly a major reason

Here is some others

1. The pink site being a non-paid site has a huge volume of posts, so anyone interested in strip clubs will alot of thoughts and ideas and perspective from that site, from dancers, and even from customers. Ok it can get nasty but the posts can be interesting - and sometimes very useful

2. Discussions all over the net often begin with a quote or cite from another source that provides a COMMON FRAME OF REFERENCE for posters to refer to, and that can help any threads discussion

3. While Yoda may be a miserable fuck and with limited brainpower in certain matters, I don't believe he is so stupid that he doesn't already know about your point that "you really can't say whatever you feel like on that site". Ok you might be able to say it, but what follows will be not a dicussion but a shouting match. Yoda as a classic ass-kissing toadie has taken it upon himself to be the defender of his dancer friends on the Pink Site

There isn't any need to pay to post on this site. I hope that doesn't get me in trouble with the founder.

I don't see where Yoda is coming from, but heck apparently he doesn't see where you're coming from or at least pretends as much.

Another point, I think some posters may have difficulty reading. So it may take you 10 seconds to read one of your posts while some poor bloke is taking a half hour or more and even then it may be beyond his comprehension. Anyway, thumbs up to Yoda for putting you in his ignore file. I appreciate when posters take that route with me. :)

Finally, I think it was pretty pathetic for Yoda to urge you to join the "discussion" over there. That is one nasty place, which would be fine except that it is a moderated nasty place. Anyway, for what little its worth I read your posts and their length hardly seems worth commenting on unless you're hostile to the poster's pov or you have difficulty reading.

Yoda in simplest terms is a miserable fuck who via some delusion on his part has come to believe he is a type of CHIEF OF THE INTERNET THOUGHT POLICE who has a right to dictate what and cannot be said on various forums, and this is true all over the web, and goes beyond his usual ass-kissing toadie role for dancers, and other posters on sites would know exactly what I am talking about including such other forums as: THE EROTIC REVIEW, STRIPCLUBLIST.com and of course STRIPPERWEB.com and guessing probably 5 to 10 other boards, user groups or discussion sites of various kinds I am not familiar with.

As Yoda asks me "what is the problem"?

YOUR the problem because I normally mind my business and post various topics (some interesting to others and some not) and respond in substance to other people's topics - but even I've now finally had enough of your bullshit to respond in kind

The story Crizgolfer tells, about how he's managed to learn to have integrity and decency WITHOUT allowing other people to take advantage of him, does an admirable job. It nicely balances out the advantages and disadvantages among the many possible definitions and misdefinitions of a "nice guy" or a "jerk" and explains pretty quickly the right way to go about it.

I have two things to add to the equation. And perhaps ask him. First, I think I learned the same thing -- but I don't see the women "come following" when I walk out on them because of their take-advantage behavior. Rather, they just abandon me, and I end up lonely. Sure, to some extent, that's a better deal for me than would have been to stick around and be the abused, used lap-puppy who didn't get no respect. But wouldn't it be even better, if I were able to have something going on in which I managed to maintain my integrity, reject any actions that other people used where they tried to take advantage of me, and their response to my stiff and straight spine was NOT that they just let me disappear from their lives, BUT RATHER that they started to treat me better? I find that my natural trajectory with a woman is, simply, that eventually she gets tired of me expecting her to be a decent person and she gives up and finds someone who will let her be a bitchy princess instead. In fact, this trajectory is often quite precipitous -- I don't ever get to first base with her and THEN walk out on her AFTER she starts taking me for granted, she just moves along because she can't control me IN THE FIRST PLACE. Kinda self-selecting but also self-defeating ... wonder if there's a solution for that?

Second, you say you haven't learned bitterness from these experiences. That's probably because you're getting laid, by women whom you consider to be physically appealing. I'm not. The hotties move on from me, to men whom they can control and bitch at. With me, they have to be straight, and they respect and value me (I think) for that. But they fuck the other guys. And that's been my life story.

So, although it's pretty in theory, I still haven't been able to bring it about in practice. I buy your version of the nice-guy definition, and the way to bring it off. I really do. I think it's what all of us are miscommunicating about here. JaBlake and I are going down one path, slowly but inexorably, toward bitterness and disaffection.

Here's one way I put it to a very bright woman I know. She's a super-duper lawyer in Canada, married to a buddy of mine with whom I played soccer when I lived up there. The guy is so physically attractive that he's regularly confused on the street for Hugh Grant, and he now works as a model and actor. He's working his way up from beer commercials. :) It's not a surprise to me, that she got to land this super-hottie, she's a cagey, organized, take-no-prisoners type of woman. And she just outright asked me, "Hey, BG, how come you have had so many bad experiences with women?" I couldn't answer her. "Hey, then, BG, why are you so negative about women?" "I dunno, Lawyer Lady, I keep having negative experiences with them." I told her about the young lady who let me get engaged to her before she told me that she just "wanted to see if I could get a reaction out of you" (that is a literal word-for-word direct quote, btw); I told her about the cheating, the lying, the taking for granted, all the while trying to indicate that I took whatever level of responsibility for my own participation that was appropriate (if I had been a willing self-effacing limp milquetoast, then I should indeed admit that I "asked for" that treatment, and I should learn to grow a spine! etc.), I tried to just tell truth to her instead of complain.

Her verdict? "I'm sorry you've met these people." So I asked, "Lawyer Lady, what people are you talking about?" And she answered, "Women. Because I know I'm just like them, too. That's how I got my husband. And you won't be gotten by anyone, because you see through us. You respect reality more than you respect emotional truth. I'm sorry. You should be very good at making money off of people because you should be able to push their emotions to buy anything. As long as you can stomach it."

Funny thing is, I am terrible at making money, too. The one thing I CAN'T do, is push people's emotions. I can see right through them, as Lawyer Lady indicated, and this disappoints me more with women (more frivolous, more childish) than with men, though I could probably find a lot to complain about with men, if I were trying to date men. But seeing right through them doesn't benefit me in being able to control them. I know what they're misled about, how foolish they are, or what they're really good and righteous about; but I don't know how to make them like or hate or fear me, how to cause them to want to please me, how to suggest they would really want to BUY ... THIS ... CAR.

And that's what it all comes down to. If you can channel a used car salesman with Nixon's smile and a big waggly Tricky-Dick victory wave, you too can get a date with an attractive woman.

Really, Lawyer Lady was hot. And she was good to her husband. They had a wonderful one-year-old, when I last saw them. They were an honest couple building a longer-term commitment, a relationship that actually involved cooperation. They had a sort of "willingness to work it out." She knew he wanted her for her body, partly, and she appreciated that, and it didn't piss her off and make her feel like he was shallow and evil, and she seemed like the sort who would actually enjoy a good fuck every now and again. She made a lot of money, which supported his acting habit. He was definitely not unhappy to have been "manipulated" into bed with her. Heck, I'd be DELIGHTED if a head-screwed-on-straight sort of hot woman like her was busy trying to manipulate me. Snog me, bed me, marry me, sure, I'm compliant IF you're hot enough and smart enough, lady. But those women are few and far between, and every step of the way between them I learn a little bit more about the evil, underhanded system out there, which is entirely geared to suppress male wishes and fulfill female wishes (neither of which ought to be inherently superior to the other; they're both just natural, biological), and I just have to take those many and far between steps from one to another and get more and more bitter as it goes. Along the way, I meet reality, and it turns me sour, again.

Well, it's worth writing about. Am I broken? Should I see a therapist? I don't recognize this person that I have become. Who is he? Why is he so dysfunctional?

David999

Hey I ve read your posts and became an instant fan. OMG guys dont attack me for saying that ok? LOL BTW women too since Im betraying the sisterhood or whateverLOL LOL. But I agree with him . So neener neener

Book Guy, you might be complicating things a bit too much

Note what "xdamage says: "What people really want is often deep seated in their biology" As Dawkins would say "genes are selfish" and genes seek to survive. That is human priority #1 with both males and females. Of lower priority (which few humans realize) is Priority #2 or personal survival. That's why a mother or father (on an instinctive basis w/o hesitation) would step in front of a moving train to save a son or daughter- we are wired that way.

Like it or not the evidence still suggests that human genes (in part at least) still "believe" wide scale seed dispersal by males is the optimal genetic survival strategy vs (comparatively recent) pair bonding - with such pair bonding, committment, and today's (ultra modern) institution of marriage obviously having advantages not fully "understood" by genes. Genes having extended memories into man's 3 to 5 million year early period and do not always recognize such relatively modern modern constructs

No men don't ACTUALLY need to screw or want to screw every woman in town to increase one's odds in the genetic lottery, however the genes think we do -and this spills over into the entire issue of "chemistry" and/or "falling in love" which for women is the key factor in selecting mates

Once someone accepts wide scale seed dispersal as a superior form of increasing the odds of genetic survival during evolution as the norm for most males, then one will note the near perfect symmetry this form of reasoning takes.

STATED SIMPLY "Most men (following the survival optimized evolutionary norm) ideally would prefer to have lots of sex with lots of women, and in turn most women (subconsciously) are attracted to men fitting this same survival optimized norm and therefore are attracted to men that "like lots of sex with lots of women".

Both parties by making these choices are (via gene reasoning) are making the optimized decision increasing their genetic survival odds

Point is one doesn't have to be a total jerk with women, so long as one is always putting forth the requisite tinge of nonmonogamy necessary to turn-on that evolutionary based "chemistry" that women want and always crave

BookGuy...nice response. Thanks! I will attempt to answer your questions from my viewpoint. First question I have for you is how old are you?

Walking out the door on a relationship is not something that is done to teach a lesson. It is done because you are not getting what you want out of the relationship. If she does not follow, then why do you care? She never would have given what you wanted anyway. If she follows, then perhaps there are things that will be worked on.

Loneliness is a state of mind. It comes from wanting what you do not have. You are an intelligent guy and I am sure there are things in your life that make you fulfilled. For myself it is my work. I enjoy what I do. It defines me more than any woman could. I also have a fantastic son. Find those things in your life. That is who you are. This is where you gain your self-worth. No woman will ever give you self-worth. Any decent woman will expect you to have it before she gets involved.

I think that one thing that has helped is that I love women. I always have a positive attitude around them. I love everything about them. Even the little things that drive me up the wall. I take that as a part of the whole package. That whole package is incredible.

I also prefer reality over emotion. I also try to see inside of a person. I see this as a strength and not a weakness. I think the lawyer lady may be confusing reality with cynicism. Things are what they are. Learn to accept that and you will end a lot of personal grief. If you can see what buttons to push then why don't you push them? Nothing wrong with that especially if your intentions are good. You are a good guy, right? Make her see that.

How do you compliment a woman? If you "see" the buttons that need to be pushed...how do you push them? Do you look her in the eyes and tell her exactly what you are thinking? Do you build sexual tension?

BG...I asked how old you are for a reason. I am 42 and it took me 35 years, one broken marriage, and several unfulfilling relationships before I realized that it was not them. It was me all along.

I don't have all the answers and can only pass on what I have learned as it pertains to me. If women like you as a friend, then they can like you as a lover. If she does not see you as a lover then you are going about it wrong.

David: re: gene selfishness etc. Yeah yeah BTDT. I kind of believe SOME evolutionary biology (though most of it is entirely speculative and can never be proven). But it doesn't help with day-to-day behaviors. Sure, so I'm hard-wired (and so are the women). Great, I believe you. (And frankly I don't think women are hard-wired for committed relationships any more or less than men are, but that's just fine-tuning within the general construct.) Basically, I buy enough of the hard-wiring concept. But what should I wear to the dinner party? Tux or casual? How is hard-wiring going to help make up my mind?

See what I'm saying?

Criz touches on a similar issue. "How do you compliment a woman? If you "see" the buttons that need to be pushed...how do you push them? Do you look her in the eyes and tell her exactly what you are thinking? Do you build sexual tension?"

I know what he's SAYING, I just don't know how to DO it on my own. I try pushing buttons and all I get is ... "Hey, don't push m y buttons." Or, "Golly THAT was a bitchy thing to do." Etc. I'm bad at it. Always have been. It's HARD-WIRED into me, that I can't push other people's buttons.

As far as that other stuff, about walking away because you aren't getting what you want, rather than to teach a lesson -- yeah, that's the point of view I'm already coming from. Criz reports that this gets him a happy series of relationships (or, at least, responsible departure from unhappy ones), as well as an opportunity to work in a field he enjoys which defines him. For me, the same behavior gets me no relationships at all, and I'm unemployed again.

Obviously I'm doing something wrong ... :P ...

Now in this festive holiday season, allow me to say, I THOUGHT I had smoked the LSAT out of the ballpark. I was so excited. But it turned out I bombed it. My real score bears no relation to my practice scores -- literally 20 percentage points lower on all counts. Utterly unpredictable, random even. I did it right -- took time out of my life, worked my way up to the higher scores, regularly got high scores in timed, stressful practice situations, then magically for some reason did very poorly in the real test. And I didn't even FEEL like I'd done poorly. All the mistakes are ... random. Things I've never done before. Oddball stuff. Stuff I couldn't have predicted. Like someone else occupied my head -- though it didn't feel that way at the time. At the time I felt like I was doing quite well, just like all the previous practice tests when I'd been a master of the material.

For me, this is a metaphor for my life. I find a field which thrills and excites me, and then as I put work into it, it oozes away from me, I grow worse at it, it becomes less and less effective. Putting work into something reduces my effectiveness at it. Really devoting myself to something or someone means that I am driven away from the object of my devotion. The Protestant Work Ethic in reverse. Weird. I'm "in the zone" with a woman, we're getting along, and THAT is what makes her dislike me. My sense of "doing well" is converse. (Except, of course, when I realize that fact and try to correct for it by second-guessing. Which obviously isn't going to work. THEN, it knows to double-reverse to beat the second guess, so I would have required a third guess. Etc.) Grump grump.

I need to live in a developing nation, perhaps, where things are just wild-wild-west about economic development. There, I'd be able to walk away from projects and women with fewer tears because so much more is random. Here, I keep expecting recompense for effort. Silly me. Even in studying for a test, I find that the equation is actually the reverse.

Here I am again, no career, no prospects. I know things that I really really like, but I'm afraid to touch them for fear of ruining them.

Merry Christmas to you fuckers too.

BG...relax a little. I never intended anything I wrote to bring you down. I cannot possibly list the number of times I have screwed up. I cannot list the number of failures I have had in my life. Thing is just stay focused on what you want. Pick a goal and keep going. Start working on the LSAT again if that is really what you want. You can get there.

Life is not easy for anyone. Succeeding (at whatever) is filled with failures along the way. Dude, just fucking get back up and start going again.

As for relationships with women. I am not one to give advice on a lasting relationship. I have not had one to this point as I am divorced. I have also not met the one that will hold my attention forever. Who knows? Maybe that is yet another flaw in me.

BG...you seem like a bright guy. I think you can probably accomplish anything you want with the right attitude. I think that the only thing that is blocking you is YOU.

Think about the type of woman you want. What type of man do you think you would have to be in order to have a woman like that? Be honest in this thought and not bitter. Once you have that picture in your mind, then ask yourself...Can I become that man?

It seems like this thread has just turned into a pissing match. To say that nice guys finish last even in a strip club does not fully explain what the guy's expectations were. Looking for love in the wrong place? Looking for sex in the wrong place? I am a nice guy and I have been told that over and over at my favorite club. Just last Wednesday, a dancer new to me said that "All of the girls love you". I consider that a big compliment. I am meeting my expectations. High mileage dances from good looking dancers at prices that most other customers cannot get. I have TUSCL friends that drive long distances just to meet me at the club and share the fun. I didn't finish last. I am the nice guy at the top.

Crizgolfer: rofl, I didn't mean to refer to you (or anyone else here) as a fucker. I was just using that as a funny thing to say. Kind of like "Bah Humbug!" Sorry if anyone took it that I was thinking of others as fuckers. That's not what I meant at all. I didn't think this was an acrimonious discussion in the least! My bad, my bad. :(

The famous "nice guy" delemma directly ties into the "chemistry" issue, which is pretty much irrelevant in strip clubs apart from ATF situations, and since I would guess 90% of strip club customers never have AFTs anyways - then its of course not relevant to anything. So if someone doesn't give a sh.t what the hell any dancer thinks of them -ok this issue would never be considered anyways

However when one is married and for example has multiple ATFs its usually not a standard RIL thing per se, so a customer may appreciate ratching up the chemistry for a number of reasons - maybe its about the thrill or do getting a kick or whatever. In this case understand the issue becomes important.

For single customer-single dancer RIL situations I would certainly not recommend patrons to be using strip clubs for romance. In fact I still don't fully understand why single guys would even waste any time at strip clubs looking for Ms Right, there are just too many (non-stripper) girls in the world

"And frankly I don't think women are hard-wired for committed relationships any more or less than men are"

As James Bond said to Q in GOLDFINGER about the ejection seat in the Aston Martin "you must be joking"

I agree with Shadowccat, it all depends on your expectations. Both nice guys and bad boys usually end up with what they really want. But if you're a nice guy pretending to be a bad boy, you won't.

Seems to me that there are 2 types of relationships - cooperative (win-win) and adversarial (win-lose). Just as there are two types of people - nice people and bad (meaning people who enjoy being naughty) people. Nice people prefer cooperative relationships and bad people prefer adversarial ones. So if you're a nice guy, find a nice girl and have a cooperative relationship. If you're a bad boy, find a bad girl and have an adversarial one.

Sounds to me like the problem some of you are having is that you want a bad girl but not an adversarial relationship. It won't happen, it doesn't work that way.

Then there are those that don't feel the need to have a lasting relationship, so we look for interesting women. "Nice" or "bad" means little as we are looking for "interesting" and "fun." Sure, if I meet a woman that blows me away, then I will go with the flow. To date this has not happenned.

I personally enjoy dating a variety and lounging in strip clubs. Dating and strip clubs are two different things (IMO)...although sometimes the strip club thing does turn into dating. This generally gets "interesting." Yes, I like "interesting."

"But it (evolutionary biology) doesn't help with day-to-day behaviors."

What are you talking about?

Evolutionary biology is one of the hottest areas in science and behavior however because its a "disruptive" (meaning upsets the existing applecart) area of science and it often involves discussing many non-PC type subjects, people have tended to attack it. As for helping in day to day things, in fact that is exactly what it does, and there are 100's of examples all over the map - and not just in the relationship area.

For example lets take the case of a single guy that's just began dating a woman, and there is initially some reciprocity in the way each party looks upon the other. The girl believes she likes the guy, and assume (for certain) that the guy actually is very interested in her, perhaps even in a serious way longer term

Now he has a choice: does he continue to put out the standard (sincere, faithful, non-controlling) "nice guy" vibe or does he tinge it with something else.

If he continues putting out the standard nice guy vibe, probably 90% of time with most young attractive women, they will soon grow bored, the "chemistry" she craves will not be there, and this relationship will soon be ending

On the other hand if he make an effort to suggest or infer a nonmonogamoous outlook on life, its going to in most cases improve that absolutely critical chemistry that nearly all women use to make the go or no go decision in a relationship

Of course western societies don't generally deal in arranged marriages, therefor being "in love" is required particuarly on the part of the woman, and that is a totally involuntary feeling or belief on their part which cannot simply be willed because a guy is a "nice guy", and its definitely connected to primordial based instincts of some type

Lets say they the dating couple above happen to be in their 20's and at some point they are having a general discussion about being single and dating vs people that are married etc, and the topic comes up in a natural way, and the guy puts in a comment like "gee any guy that gets married under the age of 35 today really has to be crazy"

The girl might then say "well what do you mean"? The guy would then respond something like "well, there's just do many people in the world to settle down at such a young age, men and women both should have fun when they are young, and life sometimes should be having fun""

Now while its counterintuitive, most young women themselves would CLAIM that any guy that made such a statement would be written off as a selfish immmature jerk - when in fact their ACTUAL interest would generally (at things equal) be higher, but what's happened is this guy has just put out the nonmonogamous vibe

Of course a classic "nice guy' would never say that and he certainly wouldn't believe it, however its simply necessary to put out the proper vibe to keep the relationship strong.

A couple more examples of many 100's

1. New research on when someone is sick with a fever, why it may not be a good idea to artifically suppress these fevers, because it turns out evidence indicates that the fever itself is the body's way of curing the underlying illness, with drugs simply extending the problem. This was the 3 to 5 million year evolutionary solution to such things

2. sexual positions: why the "ape/doggy" and women prone position is apparently orgasmically advantageous for most women vs missionary - again tied to evolutionary biology

3. lack of exercise and its relation to depression and why a sendentary lifestyle may be a signal being sent to the brain that equates with uselessness and irrelevance - because in evolutionary terms such inactivity would have normally been a precursor or correlative with death or serious injury, in an era where constant movement was required simply to survive. The Big Pharma groups have been attacking Duke Univ and their research on the connection - because obviously they want to sell junk drugs for even low to mid grade depression, which in fact have provably not worked well at all.

several examples

"But if you're a nice guy pretending to be a bad boy, you won't."

Its not about pretending to be something one is not, its about adding enough of the promordial based attitudes and beliefs to ratchet up the chemistry. The point being one doesn't have to be a totally asshole to ratchet it up

OK in the case of stripper boyfriends (who not even Alphas sometimes) often are just total assholes, but its seems that nonmonogamy with maybe some controlling behavior and a bit of devious bahavior are key factors in ratching up that chemistry

As it turns out, society today has basically wussified men to be overly polite to women, we have to pretend the OPPOSITE WAY that we are equal at all times to a woman, when in fact we may not be

I mentioned in other posts about this dancer (described as Playboy level 9.5 just looking for her "faithful CHEATER" - to indentify her) who I engage in SS with now and then and have had a few 1000 dollars worth of dances since last summer, but I don't consider her an ATF for me - I remember one time when I asked her point blank

(we were bullshit..ting about relationships and somehow we got into the topic below)

PL "well, what about if the guy IS smarter than the you, is that a problem"?

Dancer (after 5 second pause) "no, actually that is not a problem"

She knew at that moment I was talking about her and me, even though of course we don't have a "relationship" per se. This girl has a track record by the way of screwing around with married men, one for a very long period of time

When she paused for about 5 seconds, it was because she knew it was true, in fact by an overwhelming margin

I had bypassed the usual PC bullshi.t and wasn't afraid to state by implication) the obvious, and I could sense - she was turned on. PL like yes, but a 100% true recounting on what occured

Note this is a girl that has been pitching ME for months about her latest brainstorm of having a "faithful CHEATER" where the married guy would satify his cheating gene, but be faithful to her (and therefore germ and STD free). This dancer is absolutely pretrified of any germs of any kind, let alone serious diseases etc

Evolutionary theory applied to behaviour is very interesting to me. And, I think it has practical applications e.g. day to day. I've met very sweet women that don't need a "bad" boy, but they definitely needed a dominant male. Being a nice guy would only get you friendship or a mercy fuck at best. The dominant male could be a police officer or a drug dealer. The attraction is to the assertive personality and behaviour. Being "unfaithful" for a dominant male is just one way manner in which he asserts himself i.e. a go getter. So does the woman really need a man to seem like he's a player? It helps the spark/chemistry, imo, because it feeds to her competitive instints. However, a stripper who I became extremely close to was crazy about me in one respect that I liked very much same old, same old. She just thought it was too good to be true that I was focused on her and even when she wasn't around my interest was in her. I should also add that I was extremely aggressive---I didn't see myself like that. I saw myself as just a normal guy. It turned out the people I was raised around weren't standard issue. I didn't realize that. Yes, I knew there were weirdos -- who believed in equality or civil rights, but I believed they were the minority or from other areas of the country. And, generally they seemed like pussies i.e. anti-gun, turn the other cheek, let the government dictate your basic beliefs, etc. etc. etc.

"a mercy fuck"?

now that is funny

PL at the perv tip rail I can see now "Oh please oh glorious dancer-lady, beauty of all beauties who give sexy dances for me, please please tonight could you consider in the Christmas spirt of sharing your ass, one mercy fuck for your faithful regular?"

Keep in mind I not advocating unfaithful behavior per se, however I do believe in the intial stages of relationships the male must generally be perceived as being unfaithful or wanting to cheat

Ideally for a woman, a relationship could work well longer term if she believe or suspects that guy is cheating, but he in fact is not

Now obviously if a guy in his 30's and has the looks and charm of for example Sean Connery in his prime, then that by itself fills in the requisite perception, however that's an extreme example

Now referring to the pink site once again, there's a male (RIL style for sure) poster over there going by the handle "HockeyBobby" or something like that, and he comes across not only as a "nice guy" but as overpolite and defferential toward women to the extent of being - a borderline ass-kissing wuss or perhaps even Bella 21's colorful description for her ex - or a "fucking pussy doormat"

Of course the guy is getting trampled by those dancers, and in his casea least, he might be getting what he deserves for coming across as such a marshellow wimp

David999: sure, heard all that stuff before. It's nothing new to me, probably not to science either. Just the same old "Here's how humans are supposed to operate because our cultural constructs suggest that this is the right way to do it" supported by "new" old evidence from "science" (speculative, entirely non-experiment, utterly not verifiable, but call it "science" because it uses big words rather than "fiction" which would be more fun to read).

I don't reject most of the speculations of evo-bio. I just suggest, they aren't handy for my day-to-day decision-making. I can't micro-manage my interactions with women the way that your suggested guy would do, by "tingeing" his interactions with this or that flavor of such-and-so bad-boy or good-guy or nice-sincere or emotionally-distant. I don't KNOW whether I'm already too nice-sincere, or too bad-boy-aggressive, anyway, I can't tell either way. None of us knows how others perceive us.

So what if I know, from evo-bio, that I need an ideal mix of bad-boy and good-guy? I still don't know whether that means I need to act more bad or more good. Ms. Santa won't tell me where I already stand on the list, nor could she if she wanted to. So, do I wear the tux or go casual? No tellin. Evo-bio is useless in a day-to-day context because it's nothing but high-blown theories.

And by the way, many of the theories are likely false. That's a different discussion.

"Nice guy" and "wus" are not synonymous. You can be a nice guy and still be willing to stand up for the things you believe in. Being a nice guy just means that you're polite about it, that you abide by the traditional concepts of civillity.

When "nice guy" is used with quotation marks, it usually means a guy who is really sort of a pain in the ass, because he worries so much about being seen as nice. He never says what he wants for fear that it would make him appear selfish. "Oh, I don't wanna bother anyone." He puts other people in the position of having to figure him out and never suggest that he's anything but nice.

Chandler, when referring to any word as a word as I did, it's always proper English to put it in quotation marks. As I'm sure you know.

The assholes and jerks (which is probably redundant) are the weaklings and cowards in our society. It takes courage to be a nice guy. The jerks are too dumb to recognize that.

FONDL: I was referring to the common usage of "nice guy" in ironic quotation marks.

""Nice guy" and "wus" are not synonymous"

True, as I've stated above

However men that happen to be wusses or "Pussy Fucking Doormats" (Bella 21's colorful term) generally also happen to be (monogamous, sincere, non-controlling) aka "nice guys" -thus allowing Ms Bella and other women to intertwine two different issues, and label the entire "nice guy" issue as really a wuss issue.

In reality the vast majority of nice guys actually are not wusses.

I think that's a key, David: in reality most truly nice men are not also necessarily wussy men. But most women DO perceive that niceness equates to wussiness. Hence the problem.

This reminds me of one dancer that wanted to hook up with me. She came after me pretty strong. I met up with her outside the club and we had fun. I thought things might be over between us when she was ticked off at me for spending so much with another dancer. I didn't realize she was watching me and didn't think anything of it. I mean she's dancing for other guys, I didn't see the big deal in me getting dances from several dancers even though I just slept with her recently. She was angry at first, then she wanted to sleep with me even more than before. I was also wondering why I was still getting lap dances from multiple dancers when I could just go and do all I wanted with the one. The only thing I thought of is because it was fun. Well, it's possible she thought I was looking for someone who was better than her. I don't know where some girls think of this stuff. I'm just a nice guy like everyone else.

hmmm, if I've ticked off more than one dancer on more than one occasion, does that rule you out of the nice guy category? I thought no. That's just ordinary life. hmmm, I just thought of another topic.

While its true its primarily men asking "why do women who SAY they want nice guys then usually end up dumping these same nice guys over and over again"?

Some women like Bella 21 will simply dismiss the entire issue as a wuss issue, however other women will admit there is an issue but proclaim it an unexplained mystery of some type. For this later group, they in fact are generally NOT equating nice guys with wusses.

Many many women will openly admit (if pressed) that in fact they've dumped lots of guys that were not wusses or pussies at all - they just dumped them simply for being what they refer to as "too nice" but they cannot always precisely describe it - however oddly enough it nearly always seems to have some connection to either faithfulness, sincerity, or lack of controlling behavior - all modern day positive qualities that were negative qualities in terms of genetic survival for 3 to 5 million years of evolution.

Basically its primordial based desires running the "chemistry" for these women, and its not something they have any volitional control over. When they meet the faithless, insincere, controlling NEXT GUY and the "chemistry" is boiling over - they will be turned on and they won't understand why, another "mystery" for them to contemplate.

David: agreed, this is all water under the bridge for me. I don't see most of it as disputable at all. If this is what you mean by "evolutionary biology" then we're in agreement about it.

Problem is ... now that I know these facts, how do I actually go about getting LAID with them? I mean, what I want is NOT some textbook knowledge of how humans have developed over millennia, what motivates us, how a certain set of characteristics or actions can be described by Desmond Morris and Richard Attenborough on their public television documentaries. I have had most of this knowledge, in some form or another, in my arsenal of "painful awarenesses about the hard-knocks school of life" for about two decades now, give or take.

Rather, I don't just want the textbook-read KNOWLEDGE. I want the real-world SKILLS. I want to USE this knowledge effectively. Yet it never seems to come to pass. On those occasions when I'm almost to first base with a girl, should I act more committed or less? How do I know which? Is it time to be a bit more of an emotionally distant and inaccessible manly-man, or have I done too much of that and I'm treading the edge of making her think I'm faking it? In which case, I should reverse tack and surprise her with a "committment" expression.

I think we kind of agree on "chemistry" and its evo-bio roots. Where we disagree is on its practical applicability. In my experience, I've NEVER been able to USE any of this knowledge effectively at all.

"But most women DO perceive that niceness equates to wussiness."

That's not just true for women, a lot of men (mainly the jerks) think that too. I've often used that to my advantage, it can be very useful to have people underestimate you.

Bottom line, people who consider niceness to be a fault aren't worth my time. I have no interest in them, men or women.

Oh, I DO have interest in them -- as long as they're pretty and female. :)

FONDL: Whoa! Nice is the new badass?

Wusses and nice guy behavior can get intertwined pretty easily, however for an explicit example of a poster that clearly puts out both vibes - and has been getting his head bashed-in during the last few weeks over at the pink site - is the middle age Canadian govt worker "HockeyBobby" (pink site, Customer Conversation, "Finding Love in a Strip Club)

When you see an example like this, its not hard to understand see why so many women are often so repelled by such men

Sounds like my definition of "nice" is a little different. To me being nice means that you're polite and considerate of the feelings of others. Until someone gives you reason to treat them otherwise, then you just ignore them. It doesn't mean that you allow people to walk all over you. Nice people use passive-aggressive rather than aggressive behavior when dealing with those who aren't nice. Nice people can also be strong people. In fact IMO the truly nice people always are - they know who they are and are comfortable with it. They don't need to be annoying or bullying to draw attention to themselves. They have no need to impress others because they have a lot of self-confidence, which bad boys lack.

If you're talking about the definition of "nice guy" in just a general context, in other words outside of the world of dating, love, or romance, ok you can define as basically just being "polite and considerate of the feelings of others." I'm not sure if that's even a controversial issue, because while being "considerate" was likely a moderate (genetic survival) disadvantage in evolutionary terms for males, in modern time one is typically not trying to generate this primordial based "chemistry" with just random friends and acquaintances. Now and then variations of these issues might come up in business,(e.g power issues) however they are generally not make or break issues as they are for example when a man is trying to retain a women's romantic interest, the later being clearly a non-willful and non volitional "choice" on the part of a woman whether she has that special "chemistry" with the particular man that is pursuing her.

"Gentlemen Horndogs" in fact can be considerate of the feelings of others but only to the extent it doesn't interfere with their basic need and/or desire to have sex with as many women as they can get away with. If they are perceived any other way, they will risk shutting down that critical "chemistry" that most younger women crave like crack cocaine. Women "select" men their genes perceive as increasing their odds in the genetic survival lottery of life, and betting on a "nice" man is generally not a good long term bet whereas betting on a Alpha seed spreader type would be (in genetic terms at least) considered a much safer bet

I think the idea of "considerate of feelings of others" is, to me, the CORE concept in the distinction between (a) being considered by women to be a wussy nice guy and (b) being considered by women to be an alpha-male gotta-fuck-him nice guy. If you care about their feelings, you don't get laid.

If you read those "HockeyBobby" posts on pink site, he in fact is extremely concerned about offending any of the women, and agree that it does give off a wuss type of tinge

Note however that "controlling behavior, deception, nonmonogamy, and predisposition toward violence" generally takes one out of the "nice guy" realm anyways, however since Dawkins basic theory is that of the "selfish gene" I suppose explictly being tagged "not being considerate of others feelings" - could be a major plus in the "chemistry" sense.

The core factor I would argue would be success in genetic survival, and to the extent being selfish helps that - then maybe its a core also, but they are all interrelated

This "HockeyBobby" may be a wuss (I haven't read any of his posts), but at least he evidently has the balls to post on the pink site. More than you could say for someone so concerned about offending any of the women there that he would run to the safe distance of this board to take his potshots.

FONDL: We should all be glad there are other kinds of people in the world in addition to nice people. If not for them, surely there would be no strippers, no strip clubs for them to work in, no TUSCL and, for that matter, not nearly as many places to go or things to do to have fun. Rude motherfuckers may not always be pleasant to be around, but some of them do have a knack for making things happen.

Another poster who is telling people where they can and cannot post. Go fuck yourself OK

By the way, there is nothing stopping those bitches on the pink site from posting here

BookGuy - this older post from "Bella 21" below from a thread titled "Why I hate men" (pink site, The Lounge, Nov 2003), the thread also started by "Bella 21" does tend to affirm the lack of consideration of other's feelings as a possible core factor, note how she tags all her ex-boyfriends as being "selfish bastard(s)" - as if she and her women's "intuition" didn't know this when she was going out with them, yeah right. The probability is high that women are hardwired to pick up these vibes, either consciously or subconsciously, and being selfish obviously had evolutionary advantages during the 3 to 5 million yr primordial struggle to survive and move one's genes forward

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I hate when I go for a good looking guy and he ends up being one of the "bad boys". I've been with the "nice guys" and they all seem to be such pussies that I wear the pants in the relationship... and I really hate that. Exactly like topaz said, I can't tell if there are any good ones out there. Thought I had one once... then he went to the army and cheated on me too! It was a one night stand and he was away for a year so I wanted to work it out... but he wasn't even sorry! He ended up being a selfish bastard just like all my other ex's

END QUOTE

Chandler, I agree that a lot of assholes have made major contributions. I just think they've done it in spite of being assholes, not because of it. I've know a lot of nice guys who have been very successful and accomplished a great deal. I think it's a myth that you have to be a jerk to succeed.

"I think it's a myth that you have to be a jerk to succeed."

The expression "nice guys finish last" I would even agree is not accurate as it applies to life in general. There is no reason nice guys as the word is used in the general sense cannot do well in life in general.

The expression has survived primarily because most men understand (at some point) that to the extent this expression is applied to love and romance, that this expression has an underlying truth.

for example success in business can be achieved in many ways, its not dependent per se upon some mysterious "chemistry" factor that one party has no control over, which is exactly what "love" depends upon, and which I would argue has primordial based evolutionary roots, operating not out of modern rational logic but a darker logic of earlier times

The thing I think is operating isn't, so much, that a chick "wants" (whether she knows it or not) a guy who is just a total jerk to her, or who actually does not care at all about other people's emotions. I think instead there's a fantasy, on the part of the women, that SHE ALONE can be the one who gets him to be sweet. Find the biggest meanest jerk you can and then show off just how much taming you can do. If he's more of a jerk at the outset, then it means you have more tame-a-man skills than all the other girls.

I think there are two very sad implications of this understanding. The first is, that chicks are always looking around to see how they compare to other women. "Did I tame a man more than SHE tamed a man?" It's constant bitchy competition, with a real "hate factor". (When guys compete, there's a different level of difference. Men have competitive edges, but do it with mutual respect. We in fact learn to LIKE those against whom we compete. To the contrary, women just want to kill the competition, and tend to have NEGATIVE instincts toward whomever they have to compete with. "That bitch ..." blah blah.)

The second negative fall-out of the understanding, is that women aren't really interested in men. They're interested in WHAT THEY CAN DO to manipulate someone. If dogs or pandas or automobile parts were as emotionally responsive and challenging, they'd be over there manipulating those things instead.

Sad but true. I'm really turning into a misogynist.

Now then, I HAVE met 'constant' and 'decent' women, who really LIKE guys. But those women are also EXTREMELY high-quality. They aren't interested in me. I'm not rich enough. I'm not tall enough. And I never will be. :*(

Women in the area of mate "selection" tend to follow their genetic programming with some unknown environmental factor X intertwined with all of this - so being angry at women simply for following their basic instincts is not productive

In turn, women need to accept most mens natural instincts to want to screw with every attractive women in town

However its useful for both genders to understand the evolutionary based underpinnings for all of this, not to excuse it but to improve to the degree possible, not 100% because that's impossible, but to improve it on a marginal basis

EXAMPLE - a women once she understands why she can only be turned on by "jerks" - can then attempt to pick the least -worst jerk type of the selection she has available

EXAMPLE - a man, undertanding his innate disires to have sex with lots of women lots of the time, can for example go to strip clubs to try mitigate excessive screwing around

FONDL: My point had little to do with the "nice guys finish last" myth. It was that some types of innovation involving flouting of conventional manners are ONLY made possible by people who aren't especially considerate of the feelings of others. People who are often driven by a need to thumb their nose at others. It's essential to their role in knocking down barriers, not a handicap which they succeed in spite of. IMO, it's a very good thing they are among us, or else life would be a lot less fun for everyone. Yeah, there are too many people like that whose rudeness doesn't contribute anything, but that's not the point.

Of course, it might have been possible for nice, well behaved girls to pioneer modern public stripping or for nice, considerate men to force strip clubs into existence against all odds, but it wouldn't have been bloody likely, and the fact is that that's simply not the way things like that get done.

David9999: I'm not going anywhere. I was here before you started dumping pink site excerpts on us, and I've ridden out a few spammers and trolls who cried foul when I ridiculed their junk.

I don't care whether or not you keep making asinine posts. I'd rather not have to click through so many of them, but that's nothing new. I'll add my opinion of them when I feel like it. That's how discussion boards work. If you can't handle it, that's you're problem, not mine.

By the way, there is nothing stopping those bitches on the pink site from posting here<

A true statement that ducks the absurdly obvious: There's also nothing notifying them that somebody is slamming their posts on a completely different board. Nor is there any reason, if they were to find out, for them to want to switch the discussion over to here. That's what makes it such a wuss move for you to continuously snipe at them from TUSCL.

"Sad but true. I'm really turning into a misogynist."

That's depressing. :( OTOH, maybe it will draw hot women to you! :) With the relief available at stripclubs it seems like just being yourself and meeting lots of "normal" women and making friends with some would naturally lead to a good connection. When I was young my biggest problem was that I was too desperate, but paid relief (for me) just eliminated that and you can be friends not caring if more is on the way. IOWs, it levels the playing field and even better you are more likely to be the real you which in turns increases the chance of a real match with a "normal" woman. Another benefit is that if she is prone to use sex as weapon, then you have other options hopefully conveniently located.

"That's what makes it such a wuss move for you to continuously snipe at them from TUSCL."<<<

Well, my 1 cent opinion is that it isn't a "wuss move" because the other site doesn't, imo, tolerate opposing views. The author himself may be "moderated" i.e. silenced or his thread may be stop dead. Whatever, censored boards are fine if you like that . . .

"Of course, it might have been possible for nice, well behaved girls to pioneer modern public stripping or for nice, considerate men to force strip clubs into existence against all odds, but it wouldn't have been bloody likely, and the fact is that that's simply not the way things like that get done."<<<

Excellent point. Sort of like would we be able to enjoy a cold beer if not for murderous criminals "standing up" or "fighting back" against the government. I think the stripclub business is a better example where not so "nice" people paved the right of way so to speak.

"I don't care whether or not you keep making asinine posts."

then STFU

"There's also nothing notifying them that somebody is slamming their posts on a completely different board."

gee, the horror of it all, maybe you can squeal on me

LOL

Jablake: yeah, "when I was young" is all very well and good. I'm in my mid-40s now. :(

So much for this thread. It's been jacked high by the children.

The words written on the pink site in fact are being placed in the public domain by the authors, and the site happens to provide a significant volume of information and insights into not just what certain ANNONYMOUS dancers think but sometimes the female perspective in general, and I know of no law or regulation (except maybe in the old Soviet Union or in Chandler's mind) that says one cannot quote someone from another board as well as their earlier (historical)comments on the same issue.

Oh gee the "ethics"?

Oh well I guess I should propose a new CHANDLER RULE OF ETHICS to be used on all 100 million or so internet web sites in the world, "all references on an internet forum made in regards to 3rd party statements (made on other boards) - must be followed by notice to such 3rd parties"

David9999, all this melodrama is too silly for me to go along with. So what if I criticize your posts? It's just a discussion board. Give and take is what it's supposed to be all about, so why fly off the handle and take it so damn personally? Perhaps you really are spending too much time on the Pink Site, and it's showing. (That's a joke.) Anyway, like the man says, have fun, be real.

Hi Book Guy,

Probably a stupid suggestion, but have you thought of hypnosis? It can work for some people.

"have you thought of hypnosis?"

From what I've read of his posts, I think he's looking for a real relationship with a very hot woman or at least one he's super attracted to, which is not an unreasonable request in and of itself, however he's had no success at all per his own statements, and american women today are very very demanding and exacting as to what they want in their men - and that's why I had suggested (for serious relationships at least) some single guys should probably be looking at foreign women

We all have strengths and weaknesses, however by simply being born an american - one has a built-in advantage with certain foreign chicks. OK so they eventually become americanized, however I just don't buy that they all change overnight.

Oh, my bad. The hypnosis was for him. It can really help some people lose weight or overcome shyness or etc. He just sounds like maybe he was a little nervous at the wrong time.

Lots of 100 dollar bills with Ben Franklin's face staring at them - have been known to temporarily hypnotize stripper chicks.

Yes, the pink site can have some some exceptionally inciteful posts, from both dancers and customers, such as this one from "Shot" (11-08-07, blue side, Off topic, General Board. "If Blue had a 'Men Only' section...") This post via reverse logic demonstrates how even bad guy types can use nice guy techniques to undo relationships.

BEGIN QUOTE

It's a beautiful thing too man.

The best way to break up with your girlfriend is to act like a "nice guy" for a few weeks. She will began to lose respect for you, and break up with YOU, but you will come out looking like the victim because all you did was be nice.

We can use the "nice guy" principle that repels women to send them away purposefully. I have tested that many times, and it is golden.

I score a lot because I date for sport. Not for "looking for love."

It may sound disgusting but I average one new sex partner a week. Do that for say, 8 years off and on and it just becomes ridiculous. That's why I really have to sigh at all the relationship and dating threads I see on pink. Very few peope have my kind of perspective on it because they spend most of their time either "Single"(meaning wanting to be wifed up but no luck) or as serial monogamists. I have no relationship management skills at all, but when it comes to the first month...

The downside to my behavior is that every week, I have a woman or multiple women leave my life and it really sucks because I love them all. But the ones that remain and the new ones soften the blow.

For the last 2 years I've also set up a bunch of rules that I play by to make it more interesting. One is they never, EVER, find out where I live. i'm just really curious to see how long I can get away with it and the average has been 3 months.

END QUOTE

Shot's post presents an interesting issue.

Note that a "nice guy" once tagged to be a nice guy by a woman, will very very rarely be able to undo the label assigned to him. So if the man all of a sudden attempts to turn into a bad guy sufficient enough to kick up and turn ON the chemistry, he will usually fail. So once tagged a nice guy a man would need to forget about that particular woman, because its too late, unless he wants to continue as her sort of pet dog or her "special" friend, like Barney and his pals.

However Shot suggests the reverse is possible: that a "bad guy" or jerk can all of a sudden start acting like a nice guy to the degree necessary to turn OFF the chemistry, thus causing the woman to drop him, which is exactly what Shot wanted in the first place.

Note once you become a bit of a jerk, even when you say true statements, the woman will often think, suspect, or accuse you of lying, which (strangely enough) is a good thing.

Example, take the case of a stripper, not real world per se, however the same principals can be applicable.

PL "I'm becoming addicted to you"

Dancer "you don't have to lie"

The statement made during an extended pariod of passionately kissing a particular dancer, one you've known for months. The statement was in fact real, but is translated via female logic to be a lie, because apparently it suggested exclusivity, and she has learned over time that this is not what you believe in nor intend to practice - so one can actually tell the truth and you are still tagged a liar. A man can actually be addicted to many women

Chandler, ok no problem

By the way, in regards to "Yoda", whom I was forced into being a bit harsh with, the dancers that know him that I've talked with now and then - you should see the compliments, they like this guy alot, "a real gentleman" and so forth (in their usually accented english). Plus even I know Yoda has way more experience than most people in the strip club and escort world. His posts in fact are quite good when they are a response to the presented topic, as opposed to diverting to the collateral side issues of where and how and why that particular issue is being brought up in the first place -or as lawyers call it (and end up spending huge numbers of hours arguing about) - subject matter jurisdiction (i.e "does the court even have the right to even hear this case" "is it the proper forum"?)

In any case I find it useful to quote certain Pink site posters now and then to make certain points and to support various arguments.

I do read the pink site but I am very fast reader, so it doesn't take much time.

100 posts baby and not all bullsh.t

I don't understand why any guy would pretend to be something he is not. If the girl isn't interested in you for who you really are, why would you be interested in her? Seems to me that being who you really are is a great way to weed out all the girls who aren't interested in someone like that and to attract those who are. And isn't that the goal?

"If the girl isn't interested in you for who you really are, why would you be interested in her?" Because she has a hot ass, perky tits, a pussy that snaps like a bowl of jell-o, and can suck a golf ball through a garden hose.

What the hell, were you ACTUALLY asking that question? Geez dude ... you can't possibly really wish to imply that "if she doesn't love me for THE REAL ME, then I don't want to fuck her." I sure as hell don't work like that -- I want to fuck her, on a 1:1 ratio, exactly and precisely on the basis of WHETHER OR NOT I THINK SHE'S HOT.

Is it just me, or are we discussing something that's almost moot here?

My comment was intended for guys who are looking for a lasting relationship, not those looking for a one-night stand, since we were talking about nice guys (nice guys aren't interested in manipulative or recreational sex.) I assumed that only the pure of heart interested in this particular thread.

"Seems to me that being who you really are is a great way to weed out all the girls who aren't interested in someone like that and to attract those who are."

That's standard boilerplate chick-speak OPRAH-esque type advice and actually sounds reasonable and logical, however the "chemistry" that produces the "in love" reaction women crave like crack cocaine - generally doesn't tend to follow any particular modern type logic.

Even authentic "nice guys" sometimes are playing-up the nice guy role because they think this will win the lady over, when in fact it generally has just the opposite reaction. So its not necessarily a matter og being someone you are not, its about telling women the truth - that men generally don't want to commit to one woman

Again, David9999, I think you and I are on the same page.

FONDL: I didn't mean to be as disparaging as I sounded. Sorry, my comment (the one in response to you) seems unreasonably harsh. Hope you didn't take it too personally. Anyway, presuming you didn't (we're all grown-ups here!) I'd have to disagree anyway. I think the issue is the same, WHETHER OR NOT you're looking for either (a) a one-night stand or (b) a lasting relationship. In fact, I'd go so far as to say, that if a guy woos a girl in a manner that seems (to the guy) to tend toward relationship material rather than one-night-stand material, the guy will get NEITHER a relationship NOR a one-night stand; BUT, if to the contrary, the guy woos the girl in the manner which seems (to the guy) to be SOLELY conducive to a one-night stand and NOT to a relationship, he's likely to get an option of having one or both of a relationship or a one-night stand.

To put it as simply as I can: if you go after her all sweet and nice, you won't get laid and you won't get a girlfriend. If you go after her as an arrogant jerk, you might get laid; and THEN, you might be able to turn that fuck-partner into a long-term girlfriend.

Corollary: there's no such thing as a relationship that springs out of friendship and mutual respect first, and moves on to sexual chemistry second. Women LOVE to believe and announce that this can happen, but then they don't actually ACT that way. Men mistakenly accept women's announcements that they'd prefer this, then go about it all wrong.

Further corollary: "So, you may ask; "So, tell me, Book Guy, since you've got it all goddamned figured out, why the hell can't you get laid?" Yeah, good question. There's a further dynamic going on here. Just KNOWING that the aggressive (to an appropriate degree) behavior works much better than the sweety-nicey-gooey behavior IS NOT ENOUGH. You also have to be ABLE to somehow DO the aggressive in a convincing, and "congruent" manner. It has to BE the "real me," not just a performance.

And yet another point. Why do I hate this idea so much? If I know that it is what works, why don't I start making it work for me? If I genuinely have a theory (even if it turns out to be wrong, eventually) why am I not actively testing it? Why do I chicken out? When I go meet a hot girl, why do I still instinctively open doors for her, act decent, comb my hair when I go to the restroom? Why not just lie and say I have a prison record, forget to shave, grab her ass when she goes up the stairs? Or at least, why don't I TEND toward those more aggressive behaviors when I'm with her, to start to learn how far to go with the alpha-male flavor and how much to reject the beta-male flavor?

I know why I don't like doing it. I know why I can talk all day about it and yet still not perform it. It feels like selling my soul to the devil. Part of the truth about "alpha male performance" is, that the people who are doing it effectively -- getting laid on the basis of it; getting jobs; winning at kicking corporate butt -- are actually FOR REAL alpha males. Me, I'm not tall. I have asthma, and therefore have never tested myself in battle (the military didn't want me). I have had several near-death experiences (two, or three, depending on how you define it) which is a lot more than most men, but still a lot less than anyone who has a "dirty sleeve" (what the military calls anyone with active-duty under-fire combat decorations). So, somehow, I want to still be "the real me" rather than "the fake me" and I don't "believe in" pretending to be a stranger, or "believe in" taking advantage of another human (even if it's "just for sex" -- which isn't half as much of a problem as, say, life savings or first-borns). I think somewhere in there is a commitment to integrity.

Maybe that's what makes me different from the men whom attractive young women tend to select as sexual partners. The women like the men who don't like integrity.

Am I using that word correctly? Do you at least see where I'm going with this? Well, happy new fucking year to you fucking fuckers. Bah humbug!

Sorry to have been aggressive, verbally, there, FONDL, I'm pretty sure we understand each other. Let me know if not ...

"To put it as simply as I can: if you go after her all sweet and nice, you won't get laid and you won't get a girlfriend. If you go after her as an arrogant jerk, you might get laid; and THEN, you might be able to turn that fuck-partner into a long-term girlfriend. Corollary: there's no such thing as a relationship that springs out of friendship and mutual respect first, and moves on to sexual chemistry second. Women LOVE to believe and announce that this can happen, but then they don't actually ACT that way. Men mistakenly accept women's announcements that they'd prefer this, then go about it all wrong."

That's a reasonably accurate summation of the issue.

"grab her ass when she goes up the stairs"

With dancers at least, ones you've known awhile, pinching her super shapely Grade A ass (although counterintuitive to most civilized males), for example on a stairway - is a real plus I've found.

The "gentleman horndog" vibe option avoids having to turn into a complete asshole, since the requisite selfishiness and self-centeredness is merely implied by the ongoing tinge of nonmonogamy presented

Wow, I see this thread is still active. Are you guys talking about going after girls you just met, or only dancers, or girls including dancers who may want to fuck you? The latter is a lot easier to score with especially when they make the first move on you or bluntly tell you want they want.

casualguy - all categories, with some intertwining and overlapping of categories - the principles are basically the same

David9999 -- "gentleman horndog" seems a good modus operandi. I don't have much trouble making it work for me in a strip club. My interest is, in getting AWAY from strip clubs and getting some degree of success (perhaps of a different sort) in civilian and "real" life with women. I know that the social dynamics of a strip club are more rarefied than, and often contrary to, real-world interactions. So when I discuss a "gentleman horndog" method here on TUSCL, please understand that at least part of me is hoping that I'll find a way not just to get a good lapper, but also to get a good girlfriend. Or, at least, fuck buddy.

So, nice guys aren't interested in recreational sex? At last, we have the answer to why strippers aren't interested in nice guys: Cause strippers like recreational sex.

We can mercifully put this thread to sleep now. You're welcome.

But first.... Q: Why do nice guys always finish last? A: Because it would be inconsiderate to finish before she does.

Book Guy, I could never be offended by any of your posts, you're much too nice of a guy.

Chandler, what do I have to do to let you know when I'm not being serious? Here's a clue - when I talk about economics or social issues or trends in strip clubs, I'm usually fairly serious, otherwise I'm not. How can anyone be serious when discussing something silly like this thread? When in doubt, assume I'm kidding, and you'll usually be right.

Um, did I say anything about being serious?

hmmm, so nice guys aren't interested in recreational sex? Does this mean a nice guy would fuck any dancer that demanded it because she might be offended if he said no? Dancers might start preying on nice guys now if they get horny.

Fondl, in regards to this "silly" topic you could argue 2 things:

1. you could say its irrelevant to strip clubs, however I can tell you its not, as it clearly pertains to certain ATF types, and could apply to other club related situations involving dancers either ITC or OTC, paid or not.

2. I guess you could just write off the entire area, which I suppose is what you've done. I honestly believe I could explain this thing 9 different ways to you, (in fact I've done that already) and you still wouldn't get it. Apparently you either think evolutionary pyschology itself is just nonsense or this particular (ultra non-politically correct) subset of that field - is nonsense. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

In any case, you don't buy it nor do (fortunately) probably 99% of women - which is a good thing, because the less they understand the better for men that understand it

However, as I've stated before, as "Shot" I think might agree, it works best on the margin, for example its not going to magically transform some guys that have had had years of failure in regards to getting - upper shelf in-attractiveness type women - just to first base. They might want to consider foreign women who appreciate a man merely for being an american, as opposed to dealing with sometimes spoiled and often overpampered american women along with their long list of exacting requirements in the men they seek

"so nice guys aren't interested in recreational sex?"

Of course we know some nice guys are interested in recreational sex and some are not, but as the term "nice guy" is generally defined by women, there's a built-in assumption with most "nice guys" (at least in a real world setting) that by definition such guys are monogamous, sincere, and non-controlling, and nearly always w/o any propensity to be violent - which of course generally shuts down (especially for young attractive women) that all important make or break "chemistry" these same women crave, thus the same women generally end up dumping these guys over and over in between bad guys in their relentless search for their magic "nice guy with chemistry" - which of course rarely happens.

David9999 =- again, you're on the money. "It works best on the margin." Somewhere in those margins are where the gold lies ...

In addition, I think you've described the phenomenon of { what women think of as the detriment to a nice guy }. But that doesn't help me to develop a means by which I can cause women to NOT cubby-hole me as one. What I need is a means of making them think they should fuck me. I don't care whether they think I'm nice or not, or whether there's some detriment to that niceness in their estimation of it.

See, it all gets too complicated. Way too desperate for her approval. Does she love me? Does she respect me? Am I too nice? Am I REALLY a nice guy or do I just do the "nice act" in order to try (and fail) to get laid? Does she like nice guys, think she likes nice guys? Blah blah. Too complicated.

Goal: larger number of hot chicks want to fuck me, AND FOLLOW THROUGH on it to the extent that they do. Such that my current rate of frustration with women changes to a more happy situation.

Simple concept. Nice vs. not-nice isn't a simple solution. There's much more to it.

I think the "integrity" concept is the most important, in fact. Sad but true.

I don't really think it's bad boys' badness that women are attracted to, it's their apparent self-confidence (which is often an act to cover up the opposite.) The trouble that a lot of nice guys have is that they often lack self-confidence, or at least appear to. And that's a real turnoff for women. Guys wth self-confidence - guys who know who they are and are comfortable with that knowledge - get all the women they want.

FONDL: agreed. But, there's the pitfall, that a given guy COULD be either an insecure-bad-boy who is covering up, but so good at covering up that gals are attracted to him; or a secure non-bad-boy who is NOT covering up, and so good at NOT covering up that gals are attracted to him; or ... the worst option ... a secure good-boy who isn't covering up, and isn't getting women attracted to him; or even an insecure good-boy, blah blah.

I think in the long run, after all the permutations are worked out, the issue is, ARE WOMEN SOMEHOW ATTRACTED TO HIM. Period. I want to be that guy.

"Guys wth self-confidence - guys who know who they are and are comfortable with that knowledge - get all the women they want."

I'm commenting below in terms of of the raw chemistry, the clearly primordial based logic that women subconsciously use to make the go/no go decision in regards to their relationships with men and to decide whether they are "in love" with the man or not. Its not applicable to more mature women or women having some significant religious based factor as part of their decision, or (the rare case) women adding some kind of willful volitional aspect to their choice of a man. It simply about the way the chemistry appears to work with most women

Alpha males were certainly "confident" in an evolutionary context, however that included the confidence to go out and screw nearly any female they desired, control women at will, and engage in deceptive behavior as it concerned females. George W Bush is confident. Bill Clinton is confident. But its Bill Clinton that tends to turn on the ladies.

A "confident" man who presents himself to be faithful and sincere and commits and devotes himself to one woman - will very likely end up in the same dumpster as the other (non confident) nice guys. Ok its a plus but it cannot overcome the overwhelming advantages (perceived by genes in an evolutionary context) that the seed spreaders have over the monogamous males. Only the highly nonmonogamous male can offer the women the exciting (and illusory of course) possibility of genetic immortality - the nice guys, confident or not, will be designated in genetic terms - as evolutionary dead ends.

The case I've cited in another thread where they had 3 guys on this show, one a military type, confident/good looking/respectful guy, the other 2 wiry and borderline ugly jerks, both who treated women like crap and had treated her like crap - and the quite attractive woman was brought on to explain why the relationships didn't work out, and it was obvious she had zero attraction to the military guy and was obviously turned on by the other guys.

Confidence in and of itself is not sufficient for the raw chemistry.

David: agreed. We tend to conflate "alpha desirability" with too simple a recipe.