[OT] People will, very soon, be able to pay for things over the Bitcoin network

Usually credit card companies charge nothing to the card holders, so long as they keep the balance paid off. Lots of ways to pay for things what don't involve putting money into a ponzi scheme.

SJG

X youtube.com

I'll stick with cash or my credit card which applies cash back to all of my purchases.

Bitcoin is based on the premise that you can sell it to a bigger sucker at a higher price. No thank you!

@Tetradon and fiat currency is based on the premise that citizens will continue to blindly trust governments to protect their rights while those same governments violate their citizens’ rights by issuing new units of currency at an exponential rate of growth… and then also demanding greater and greater income taxes.

You earned money? Give me some or you go to jail. Oh, by the way, I’m just gonna print some money for myself.

No thank you!

Anyone who tries to use BitCoin to hide illegal activities, even tax evasion, has got to have a hole in their head.

SJG

X youtube.com

@FTS and crypto is based on--nothing. Absolutely nothing. Except the ability to buy drugs or kiddie porn off the dark web. Or Elon Musk might tweet your coin and make you an overnight millionaire.

Government might love the printing press but it's clearly the lesser evil.

If you think you're that slick that the government can't track your crypto transactions if it really wants to, I've got a great big white house on Pennsylvania Avenue I'd like to sell you.

The Government's printing press is controlled by the people we elect, a Representative Democracy.

SJG

@Tetradon, I never wrote about crypto, I wrote about Bitcoin. Bitcoin is “based” on the assurance that it’s ultra-secure, and of a fixed quantity. And, no offense, but you’re very, very behind the times if you still think Bitcoin is a good technology for criminals. Quite the opposite.

I suggest you do a little more research!

^ Your quotation marks say it all. What truly underlies it? Nothing. Its value whipsaws.

When its value becomes more than speculative, let me know.

@Tedradon, what truly underlies the US dollar? What year is it, 1969? Can I still exchange $35 for an ounce of gold?

The US dollars in your wallet are just cotton, linen, and ink. The same amount of cotton, linen, and ink is present in a $100 note as is in a $1 note. And, since COVID hit, banks now have a fractional reserve obligation of 0.0%, which means the dollars in your bank account are nothing more than an entry in an SQL database, or some similar database.

I’ll make one concession—The US dollar can be burned to supply a small amount of heat. I can’t burn Bitcoins, so the US dollar has that one advantage.

When the banks upgrade their databases to some kind of open, permissionless, decentralized digital ledger, let me know.

None of these cryptos are that secure. Pertaining to the Russian Oligarchs, US DOJ says they are going after BitCoin wallets.

SJG

Bitcoin is trash and only pedos and Russians use it.

@FTS, didn't answer my question. How about a huge ass percentage of the world's reserves and the world's largest and most secure economy.

You sound like one of those guys that put his retirement funds into IRAs advertised on OANN.

Hope no government cracks down on the amount of carbon BTC generates. Or its use in shady transactions. Or its purely speculative nature.

Bitcoin is purely speculative and too unstable.

You can have $100 today and $50 tomorrow with bitcoin. But that $1 in your pocket is always a dollar.

People who have an IQ greater than their shoe size should just forget about BitCoin.

Only a few people on this board like to talk about it.

SJG

Didnt biden recently have the fed look into cryptocurrency or something people are speculating on a fed backed cryptocurrency. I wonder what would happen t bitcoin then, no doubt if it were to crash the wealthy holders would have prior notice and dump it on everyone else

SJG what are the issues with bitcoin? People were saying its gonna crash any moment when it was a few thousand dollars in like 2017... but it went up like over $60000 after then...

Bitcoin and antivax are the only social ills I know that have exactly the right victims.

FTS dont the banks still have to guarantee 250k per bank account due to the fdic regulations and whatever. Even with the 0% fractional reserve requirement

The so called "vaccine" is a social ill and it targets neurotics.

SJG

FTS the governments at least give you some public goods and protections back when they ask you to pay or go to jail. Its not as bad as being obligated to pay a cartel for protection.

@Tetradon, Oh… so Russia WASN’T just sanctioned from the SWIFT network? Their US treasuries WEREN’T withheld?

If the US can just say to any foreign nation, “no, you can’t have your money,”… then can that money really be considered “reserves”?

@LLC, Or, perhaps, you can have $100 today, and $1000 in a few months. In fact, history suggests that $100 into $1000 is far more likely if held for more than a few years.

This is very simple and obvious: they are both just numbers in computer databases. One currency can be debased at an exponential rate (just search FRED M2SL in google), and the other currency is of a fixed supply. No government, no business, no organization can produce more units.

You guys can do what you want, but I’m not gonna let governments rob my savings. No, sir.

Theres a lot or credit cards that give you $200 back for spending $500 in 3 months Its easy free money

"then can that money really be considered “reserves”?"

Who's better? Does any government trust crypto as a store of value? LOL The Euro? A car with 15 steering wheels. The Yuan? LOL, good luck with that one. China is a powder keg and they manipulate that currency left and right. The ruble? You gotta be kidding me. The yen? Too small.

Good luck with those Dutch tulips, man.

@Sirachabob, yea, FDIC “insures” up to $250k in a situation in which that money is lost for some reason that was out of the customer’s control. But… how hard is it to “insure” money when it’s just a number in a computer database?

How hard is it to type some numbers in an Excel spreadsheet?

What is money? Is it just a number with a “$” symbol in front? Okay, I’ll write $100000000 on a piece of paper and I’ll live in Hong Kong strip club.

That’s how it works, right? I’m allowed to print money from nothing, right? Wait…. I can’t? But the guys in government can???

Is money a number? Is it a piece of paper with a dead-man’s face on it?

What is it?

Time to wake up.

@Tetradon, Does any government trust BITCOIN as a store of value?

Answer: yes

This ISN’T complicated! Can the US dollar be created, ad infinitum? Yes. 10s of trillions printed, soon 100s of trillions, then, when your grandkids are adults, quadrillions.

Can more Bitcoins be created than 21 million? No.

But what if we try really, really hard to make more Bitcoins? Still, no.

Oh, but, let me guess, it’s not a store of value.

What number do you want in your account? A number that is essentially meaningless? Or a number that actually represents an irreducible fraction of a globally distributed ledger?

How is this NOT a no-brainer???

Perhaps y’all should actually watch the video before commenting…

@FTS, finite != valuable. What is their inherent value?

It's gone up because early investors in a Ponzi get paid.

Go on, keep trying to pump the value.

SJG Coin, starting at $1000 each.

whitecap.com

SJG

@Tetradon, actually when it comes to a digital monetary network, a guaranteed finite supply is VERY valuable! I don’t want my savings to be devalued because some government decides they need to increase the total supply by 40%. I want my savings to be store in something that is SCARCE, and RARE!

I’m not your father. If you want to stuff paper cash in your mattress, or in your 0.01% interest yielding savings account, be my guest! I’ll be on TUSCL for many more years to come, I’ll be sure to check in on y’all over the next decade to see how your savings are holding up.

Again, I’d watch the video, and do some research, before making criticisms.

"I’m not your father. If you want to stuff paper cash in your mattress, or in your 0.01% interest yielding savings account, be my guest"

This is called a "straw man."

Hope you're not the one caught holding the BTC bag.

Our government is run by people who are elected. Now I don't agree with everything that they do, but that is a hole lot better than the people running a Ponzi Scheme.

SJG

I been stackin da shitcoinz like mad bro

SJG is bitching about Bitcoin like some sap that bought $100 of this shit a decade ago but can’t remember his password to retrieve it today.

He wrote it on a napkin but one night taking a shit behind the San Jose public library he accidentally wiped his ass with it.

I sleep like a baby on my stacks of cold stored bitcoin. I'd never actually use it to pay for anything tho that's just dumb and triggers taxable events. I borrow money against the value of my crypto if I want to spend. Way more favorable tax treatment and BTC is about as prime of collateral as you can get right now.

Shailynn I remember was the one who was stupid enough to buy BitCoin, and then lost the password.

SJG

The Bitcoin network has NEVER been hacked. Exchange platforms have been hacked, individuals have been phished of their passwords, but… properly secured, Bitcoins are protected by the most powerful computing network in the world, and it would take a galaxy full of supercomputers to brute-force hack a ECDS private/public key pair.

Also…

BuT bItCoIn Is So VoLaTiLe!!! Waaaaaa!!!!! Meanwhile: bitcoin.zorinaq.com

“10 years ago years ago, 1 bitcoin was worth $2! 7 years ago 1 bitcoin was worth $200! 2 years ago 1 bitcoin was worth $5000! And now 1 bitcoin is worth $43,000! I can’t risk my money buying something like that!!!”

:-)

The problem i have noticed with many bitcoin people is once they invest financially into bitcoin they are also invested psychologically. Once you buy into bitcoin you have a bias.

The same problem exists in the stock market, but those investors are more willing to admit the price could go either way.

6 months ago 1 bitcoin was like 52k. Now it's 10k less. If you're paying with and dependent on bitcoin that kind of fluctuation is ridiculous to accept.

And like with stocks. Most people lose.

Actually, most people invest in Bitcoin as they learn more about it. Their conviction grows with their education; their gains only serve as a validation that they were not alone in recognizing the value that Bitcoin offers.

My journey began in 2017. I looked at the chart and did some quick math and decided to dip my toe in. The price soared well above my expectations, and that only motivated me to learn more about it. I studied for hours, listened to podcasts, learned more about finance and economics and learned more about the technology. I did more calculations. I can’t tell you how many Excel spreadsheets I have in my Bitcoin folder on my computer, how many articles I read, how many research papers I studied, how much on-chain analytics I learned about. I used everything from Google Trends data, to the CashApp quarterly earnings reports, to the Greyscale holdings announcements.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to supply and demand, and human behavior. There are good reasons why humans never tried to store the value of their labor in sand, or grass, or dirt. Instead, they used things that were precious, and scarce… sea shells, Rai stones, glass beads, diamonds, silver, gold, etc.

Money has to be fungible. HARD money has to be scarce. Money of an absolutely fixed supply is likely to be hoarded and hardly ever spent, as it is easier to build more penthouses in NYC than it is to increase the supply of Bitcoin beyond its preset schedule.

How much do NYC penthouses go for these days?

Bitcoins are scarcer than penthouses (using stock-to-flow as a measure of scarcity).

Don't spend too much time preaching, you're not going to change any minds here. People deserve the price they pay for BTC. Meanwhile major companies are hiring web3/blockchain devs hand over fist. The industry is so incredibly good right now. If you have even a modicum of coding skill, you will make bank like W is still president.

FTS did all that research but never once did he use bitcoin as an actual means of currency. Any artist who actually USES bitcoin will tell you how terrible it is. Stick with fiat.

Wow a get rich quick scheme. What could go wrong lol. Let us know list every investment in history that has never lost it's value: I love crickets.

@skibum, not a get rich quick scheme, it’s a don’t-get-poor-slowly-from-inflation-scheme.

Bitcoin reminds me of the stock market circa 1921. We'll see when it hits 1929 in the crypto world. It's still a Ponzi scheme. Amway.

No adult in the US who owns a house, stocks, and a car is going to get poor slowly from inflation they actually benefit from it.

Growing up when I did, with 16% mortgage rates means never worrying about inflation. Its normal for my generation, with the last 20-25 years being the abnormality.

Not a Ponzi scheme. Tim Cook owns Bitcoin, does Tim Cook fall for Ponzi schemes? Does Gary Gensler, chair of the SEC, fall for Ponzi schemes, and call a so-called Ponzi scheme a great innovation, and teach classes at MIT about a Ponzi scheme?

Does the President of the United States issue an executive order on the responsible development of a Ponzi scheme?

Answers: No, because Bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme.

You guys are embarrassing. Do you also believe in chem-trails and alien abductions?

Ahhh yes the x famous/rich person bought into it so should you!

Here's an article about Theranos support from famous/rich people who personally vouched for it.

money.cnn.com

FYI, owning a car doesn’t protect one from inflation; cars depreciate rapidly in nominal US dollars, which means it loses its real value very quickly.

Fun fact: only about 56% of Americans own stocks. Another fun fact: a full 5% of Americans don’t even have a bank account.

And that’s in the “most superior nation” in the world. Does the average person in South America own stocks? How about in Africa, or India?

Yea… you guys just keep on looking out for #1. Enjoy your financial privilege while excluding the rest of the world!

Boomers are so selfish. SMH.

Young people might put as much energy into working as they do with whining and jealousy and make their own way as we did.

Teslas have actually been slightly appreciating year over year. This clown economy is crazy to watch.

The president would absolutely order a ponzu scheme. Social security literally is a ponzi scheme structure

And Amway is famous, they have amway stadium and scammers in every grocery store

Teslas are glorified priuses. I hate those cars.

Early investors in Ponzi schemes get paid. It's the ones caught holding the bag later that don't.

Smart people fall for scams all the fucking time.

@BCH, I know the Theranos story very well. People wanted to be fooled by Lizzie Holmes. They wanted to buy the young female Steve Jobs story. No one with five minutes' relevant scientific background would have bought it. Same happened with WeWork, smart people wanted to be fooled, to believe it, and they listened with their hearts rather than their minds. Rich people can afford to be gullible. A fool and his money are soon parted.

@desertscrub doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Just a scrub after all.

“The only reason”. “The only reason”

Yea… it had nothing to do with the growth of the user base to over 100 million people. It had nothing to do with Tesla buying $1.5 billion worth of Bitcoin. It had nothing to do with the exponential growth of bitcoin purchases on CashApp, and the large growth of BTC holdings in Grayscale Bitcoin Trust. It had nothing to do with MicroStrategy buying 100s of millions of dollars worth of Bitcoin to completely replace its USD treasury to be levered up on Bitcoin. It has nothing to do with the many senators and legislators and government agencies passing fair and balanced Bitcoin laws and regulations. It has nothing to do with Jerome Powell stating, explicitly, that there are no plans within the Federal Reserve or the government to ban digital assets. It has NOTHING to do with with the 40%+ of Americans who own or are exposed to cryptocurrencies, or the 10s of millions of Americans who signed up on Coinbase.

No, no, no. It’s all because of the small, <1% of Americans who are extreme criminals and pedophiles. It’s all because the government just printed a bunch of money and it magically flowed into Bitcoin.

Yea… Bitcoin reached a $1 trillion market cap because of the dark web pedophiles.

The amount of knowledge on this topic, displayed by the members of TUSCL, is EMBARRASSING!

Why is Jordan Peterson speaking, RIGHT NOW, in Miami at the Bitcoin Conference, about the benefits of Bitcoin to society?

Oh, right, cuz Jordan Peterson is just a alt-right white supremacist. It has nothing to do with his intellectual capacity, his career success as a clinical psychologist, and his commitment to promoting that which is GOOD and RIGHT.

No, no, no. Bitcoin is just for pedophiles. It’s not a global, open, decentralized, scarce, digital monetary network, the first of its kind.

The anti-bitcoin comments on the forum are shameful.

^ I think you're going to want better than a few cherry-picked examples of Bitcoin believer corporations and (your words) a clinical psychologist.

Keep rationalizing your investment to a bunch of titty bar enthusiasts.

Hope you're not the one left holding the bag.

I lost it at Jordan Peterson. Ugh I really don't want to get personal but certain kinds of men are attracted to his beliefs. There is alot of overlap between Jordan Peterson fans and crypto cultists.

Also onion article posted yesterday: theonion.com

“Over the past few days, I’ve started to worry that all of this stuff—Web3, non-fungible tokens, even the blockchain—is just a Ponzi scheme to cheat people like me out of our money, and no one even thought to explain this to me outside of the hundreds of people I deliberately ignored. It’s really a shame that I learned all of this too late.”

“ Hope you're not the one left holding the bag.”

I guess you just skipped over the part where I wrote that there are over 100 million Bitcoin users. There are over 25,000 attendees just at the Bitcoin conference in Miami.

Yea, I’ll be the last one holding a bag of Bitcoin. Haha.

“ Web3, non-fungible tokens, even the blockchain—is just a Ponzi scheme to cheat people like me out of our money,”

Web3 is not Bitcoin. NFTs are not Bitcoin. “The blockchain” is not Bitcoin (Bitcoin’s blockchain is the first, decentralized and distributed ledger having the blockchain data architecture. It is the most secure computer database. Other cryptocurrencies also utilize the blockchain architecture, but they do not share the same data that is stored by Bitcoin. There is no “The Blockchain,” except in the case where one excludes all crypto blockchains other than Bitcoin, in which case Bitcoin is “The Blockchain”).

^ Because groups of people are never prone to mass stupidity, get-rich-quick, pump-and-dump schemes. And of course Jordan Peterson, talking well outside his area of expertise, can't be wrong!

Have fun with your glorified spreadsheet. I've got a few I'd like to sell ya.

As Icee would say, lulz.

“Glorified spreadsheet”

Only an idiot could believe that a spreadsheet, or even a glorified spreadsheet, could be worth more than $1 trillion dollars.

Grow up.

^ U mad, bro?

I'd say its a downgraded spreadsheet, glorified spreadsheet is kind of a compliment to it lol.

One of the things about bitcoin is the crypto cultists are conditioned not to sell but "hodl" instead. This stops a "bank run" on bitcoin and keeps the price elastic. There is no way there is 1 trillion dollars in bitcoin. To get the true market cap of bitcoin you'd have to multiple the price the bitcoin was bought by the amount bought/created at the time. Of course you also have to account for the bitcoin that has been lost forever too.

@BitcoinHodler, what you’re describing is called the Realized Market Cap. You’re probably not even aware that there is a burgeoning industry in on-chain analytics that comes up with metrics like this, and many that are much more sophisticated.

The realized market cap of Bitcoin is about a half trillion.

No, Tetradon, I’m not mad. Why would I be? I own a large portion of the hardest currency in human history. I can use it to get 0% APR loans! It’s totally transformed my life, and I thank God for Bitcoin every day.

I am ashamed for all of you who don’t have a clue. “Spreadsheet.” If it’s a spreadsheet then go write it a transaction that gives yourself 10 bitcoins and then sell it for half a million dollars.

Oh wait, you can’t!

^ You tell me, you're the one having conniptions that the rest of us don't see Bitcoin through your hyper-enlightened eyes. Citing such investors as corporations with money to throw around and Jordan Peterson, how are we not convinced?

You seem uptight. Suggest you use a little of your crypto-billions to buy yourself a nice piece of ass.

I don’t expect you to be convinced because of some big name investors. That would be illogical.

Frankly, I don’t have any expectations. I’m just offering the good news. I’m spreading the news for free. You can do with it what you want.

The people who try to figure it out, fundamentally, at a philosophical, economic, and technological level… those people eventually see the light, and they recognize the value of Bitcoin. If it was an Excel spreadsheet, then why would over 100 million people, from all around the globe, use it? Go make a shared spreadsheet and see how far you get in making it a reliable and robust currency for over 100 million people. I dare you.

I’m offering the good news because it’s good. But, of course, some people never learned how to help themselves, so some people would rather bury their heads in the sand than recognize the truth.

"Frankly, I don’t have any expectations. I’m just offering the good news. I’m spreading the news for free. You can do with it what you want."

You realize you're indistinguishable from Joel Osteen Ministries at this point?

I hear that there will be another fork soon and Cacaplop is going to promote BidetCoin.

I watched the video. I'm not impressed with Jack Mallers, he should practice talking without saying "fuck" every sentence and without walking back and forth, 15 steps to the right, 15 steps to the left, and he should ask his mom tp teach him how to dress.

The history of credit cards was interesting. Just because something is "55 fucking years old" doesn't mean there's any reason to dump it and replace it with something that might be better, and might be worse. My interest in bitcoin stems from my distrust of fiat money. I'm looking for somewhere to park my money. Cash is going to be eliminated, because other countries are counterfeiting our money, and that trend will only get worse. Gold is easy to counterfeit as well. Bitcoin is limited in supply, but other cryprocurrancies aren't. I have some gbtc, bito, and coin, and they're all down. It's not a "ponzi scheme", a ponzi scheme is one where new investors money is used to pay profits to old investors, like social security.

After watching the video I'm still not sure how Strike is different than paypal, other than having the word "bitcoin" stuck in.

"Bitcoin Lightning Network" is either A) a ripoff, or B) incapable of marketing itself in a non-idiotic way.

To use Bitcoin, there are only two services you might want to be a client of:

1. A company that sells you software and/or hardware that protects your private key from discovery by hackers when you are signing transactions.
2. A (perhaps the same) company that provides you with a way to backup and recovery your private key, ideally without said company having access to your private key.

You depend on miners to create the blocks in the Blockchain ledger, which protects others against you spending the same bitcoins you own more than once. But you don't pick miners to work with. They compete with each other to earn bitcoins as compensation for the service they provide. There's an algorithm that picks which miner succeeds in creating the next block, thus earning the compensation.

I'm pretty sure the larger miners provide open source software that allows you to provide your signed transactions in a way that's available to (all) miners.

Buying bitcoins with dollars (and hoping bitcoins appreciate against dollars) is essentially the same as buying euros or gold with dollars and hoping euros or gold appreiate against dollars. That is, it's speculation in a non-productive asset.

No clue why people want to protect themselves from the dismal long-term performance of the USD

fred.stlouisfed.org

Can they squeeze more blood out of that stone?

So, to sum up—

@desertscrub is a scrub who doesn’t know what he’s talking about. He conflates altcoins with Bitcoin. He refuses to acknowledge that the IRS and the SEC and other government agencies have categorized Bitcoin as a digital commodity, and all other altcoins as securities. He doesn’t recognize that the innovation of Satoshi Nakamoto is akin to other major discoveries, and the alternatives are just copycat scams. He’s in denial.

@ilbbaicnl also doesn’t know what he’s talking about. He doesn’t understand the mechanics of Bitcoin mining and transaction signing/broadcasting. He thinks Bitcoin is a “non-productive asset,” which is only true if you exclude efficiencies gained through the creation and use of digital algorithms. And, he think’s it’s a mere speculation that the the price of Bitcoin will appreciate against the dollar, despite the fact that the number of Bitcoins that could possibly exist is capped at 21 million while the number of fiat dollars, euros, etc. that could possibly exist is INFINITY (and that’s where it’s headed).

@SanchoRG doesn’t realize that the proper way to graph an exponential function is to use a logarithmic scale. To answer your question, SanchoRG—YES, they can squeeze more blood out of that stone for as long as they want because the truth is there is no stone, and no blood, to squeeze. It’s just a number in a computer database, and they can make as many trillions as they want.

You all can keep working to accumulate, and measuring value in terms of (see Wikipedia “numeraire”), a number that is fundamentally unlimited and trivially easy to create more units.

I will work to accumulate, and measure value in terms of, a number that is of a fixed, finite quantity, a number that actually costs energy to produce more units.

Oh, and—

@PussyLicker2 doesn’t understand that PayPal is just another company that uses the traditional financial rails of fiat banks, and credit card companies, all of which operate by inefficient methods and techniques, whereas Strike is a company that harnesses the efficiency of Bitcoin / Lightning Network and completely bypasses all of the traditional financial rails.

Numbnuts, "digital algorithms" have their uses. But Blockchain is an open technology. You do not, as an owner of bitcoins, receive any royalties from any Blockchain user. Leaving it a non-productive asset. It's bad enough if others are deceived by your tech-sounding mumbo-jumbo, but you're probably bullshiting yourself as well.

So what FTS is trying to say is bitcoin adoption is imminent due to lightning network. This network will make purchases very easy and streamlined (as easy as swiping a credit) only both parties need botcoin to use it. Since the early adopters have their stacks of bitcoin already the slower movers would have to pay a premium to join in on this easy payment system, making the early believers rich.

This is where the cult part of bitcoin comes in. FTS/other Hodlers realize they NEED to recruit other people so their bitcoins go up in value. As a result they make it their personality/hobby to get people in on bitcoin.

I've received PMs from people asking why I've argued with FTS so much on other threads, its so that people who aren't as familiar with bitcoin can understand exactly why FTS is posting about bitcoin.

Alright, desertscrub, put your money where your mouth is. How much do you want to bet that it’s not gone in 5 years? How about a gentleman’s wager—if it’s all NOT completely gone in 5 years, then you admit that you’re wrong about everything related to Bitcoin. If it IS gone in 5 years then I will admit that I was wrong about Bitcoin and everything related to Bitcoin.

@ilbbaicnl, being an open technology doesn’t imply that Bitcoin isn’t a digital algorithm. The two are not mutually exclusive.

“You do not, as an owner of bitcoins, receive any royalties from any Blockchain user.”

You still don’t get it. Bitcoin is hard money, like gold. Do gold holders receive a royalty? What does a royalty have to do with anything? I can hold my Bitcoins and pass it on to my children. I can borrow against it at 0.000%. Can you do that? I can store my savings in a usb thumb drive, or in a password in my head, move to a different country, and never have to worry about my wealth being confiscated or repatriated. Citizens of emerging companies can completely bypass the detrimental effects of high inflation in the local currency be saving their earnings in Bitcoin and only converting that BTC into the local currency at the point-of-sale.

Also, technically speaking, Bitcoin holders can earn interest on the Bitcoin (in like kind, I.e. BTC interest on BTC interest-savings account). So actually, you’re wrong in two ways.

Who is the numbnuts now? Sadly, it’s still you.

“ only both parties need botcoin to use it.” No.

“ FTS/other Hodlers realize they NEED to recruit other people so their bitcoins go up in value.” Also no. Bitcoin is the hardest money in the world. It’s the LAST money that any rational person would spend. Most bitcoin holders are passing their Bitcoins to their children as generational wealth.

“ SEC views BTC as a security ” False.

“third, your SATOSHI Nakamoto is a made up person (FAKE as in a person that does not exist)” Misleading and irrelevant. Everybody knows Satoshi Nakamoto is a pseudonym.

“ finally, BTC is based on blockchain is horribly inefficient to continue to create new coins as the string continues to expand requiring more and more energy use.” No. Again, you don’t know what you’re talking about. I suggest you stop making claims that you can’t defend, be humble, and do a little studying.

I won't be touching bitcoin

BitCoin is a major security problem, and it is also just so much idiocy.

SJG

Eric Clapton - Knock on Wood youtube.com

John Fogerty youtube.com

youtube.com

youtube.com

youtube.com

youtube.com

And, if it really is a Ponzi scheme, as you say it is, then it surely won’t survive for 5 more years.

How about this—it doesn’t even have to completely go away. If the USD price of Bitcoin, 5 years from today, is less than $20k, then I will concede that I was wrong.

Good luck! bitcoin.zorinaq.com

Please explain this for us boomers. What is bitcoin?

It’s the #1 recurring buy asset on Robinhood.

twitter.com

^ the less you know about it the better.

SJG

Bitcoin is economic egalitarianism and freedom from the Boomer-privileged, exclusionary financial system.

twitter.com

If you’re against Bitcoin, then, on behalf of 80% of the human race—go f*** yourself.

Ponzi Schemes are illegal because they are fraud. Maybe there had not been a conviction with BitCoin, but it is still the same situation, fraud.

There is no egalitarianism in conning people, duping them.

SJG

Bitcoin is a neo libertarian fantasy it’s getting crushed by the it’s hype, they’re struggling to gain traction why else would they be hiring influencers and trying to build buzz where it no longer exists

Read posts before answering numbnuts. I SAID bitcoin is like gold, ANOTHER non-productive asset. Except that gold will always have some value as a commodity, even if people stopped hoarding it as a store of value that's not a fiat currency. But you can't make earrings and circuit boards out of bitcoins.

What's your next "facts based" argument gonna be? That bitcoins are made out of unicorn farts, so only evil old people don't love them?

"bitcoins are made out of unicorn farts"

:) :) :)

SJG

"If you’re against Bitcoin, then, on behalf of 80% of the human race—go f*** yourself."

Bitcoin is not your investment, it's your religion. Listen to yourself, bro. Jimmy Swaggart has nothing on you.

Accept the holy Bitcoin into your heart and be saved!

Sjg what makes bitcoin a ponzi scheme? Isnt it simply an eletronic currency? Ponzi scheme would be social security or amways MLM system...

"If the USD price of Bitcoin, 5 years from today, is less than $20k, then I will concede that I was wrong."

Regardless of the price it will always be a shitty option. As long as the tech is the tech it I will never be a viable option for the US and the world. As long as 1 bitcoin=1 bitcoin its shit.

Blockchain tech excels in environments where nobody trusts each other, and everyone low key hates each other. The tech is not going anywhere as long as this world is like it is.

Bitcoin was a bad idea waiting for a society so stupid to think it was a good idea.

@ilbbaicnl, you can’t send gold around the world at the speed of light. If you want to categorize Bitcoin as a non-productive asset because it doesn’t literally produce tangible items like food, clothes, cars, etc. then that’s fine. It’s not really a speculation, though, that the Fed will continue to increase the USD money supply by 7%+ every year, and it’s also not a speculation that there will only ever be 21 million BTC. It’s also not a speculation that transactions over the Lightning Network are cheaper than traditional CC transactions.

So, by simple supply/demand dynamics, the price (exchange ratio) of bitcoins should continue to go up, forever, because it’s a ratio of something that is infinite (fiat currency) to something that is of a fixed, finite supply. I.e. infinity/21million. It won’t matter if the boomers generally reject it… you’re all going to be dead soon anyway. The youth will adopt, and inherit, the bitcoins because it is to their advantage to store the value of their labor in a money that cannot be debased by the rapid production of new units.

Y’all need some lessons in praxeology, catallactics, and economics.

“Bitcoin was a bad idea waiting for a society so stupid to think it was a good idea.”

The historical evidence suggests otherwise. Many digital currencies were tried and failed before Bitcoin. Satoshi’s breakthrough in 2008 was the culmination of decades of experiments by computer scientists and cypherpunks. So, if Bitcoin was really such a bad idea, then how do you explain it’s success thus far? How do you explain all the major credit card companies adopting it? How do you explain Tesla buying $1.5 billion worth of Bitcoin? How do you explain a grassroots digital currency, that obviously would have been shut down by the US government if they could have shut it down, becoming a legal tender of a sovereign nation?

Your statement is intellectually dishonest.

^ Explain to me why all of those companies Tesla included won’t simply allow you to make a direct purchase using bitcoins without going through a third party.

The large companies don’t allow direct payments in Bitcoin because their accounting systems are so elaborate and entrenched that it’s too difficult to accommodate Bitcoin. There are plenty of small companies, and online-only companies, that do accept Bitcoin as payment for their goods and services. As a matter of fact, my local barber accepts Bitcoin (and not because of me; they started accepting Bitcoin years before I moved to the area).

Not sure what third parties you’re referring to. Companies like BitPay offer merchant solutions so that customers can pay in Bitcoin; most companies don’t specialize in software development and can’t design their own point-of-sale bitcoin checkout software.

I can't imagine anyone being happy with rising prices while their money literally disappears each day. But that's what using bitcoin is

^^ Is that so? Look at this chart, and then write that again. bitcoin.zorinaq.com

“Disappearing money”. Ha.

^^ we’ll just for the record I’m not a hater, but as someone who made a bit of money a few years back with bitcoin I don’t believe in it, big companies have the ability to modify their accounting systems to accommodate something if they believe in it they’d certainly do just that, truth is right now the crypto currency’s are trying much to hard to tell me that I don’t understand how money works, and frankly I’m just plain not impressed with the tulips.

how does money work?

^ lol

If you're using bitco8n to pay for shit no one cares about values over 20 year spans. They care about what they have today. If my $100 is $80 tomorrow that's a huge difference. 5 months ago it was like 52k now it's 44k. People notice that.

^^if all you care about is today, and next week, with no regard to 5 years from now, 20 years from now, and 2 generations from now, etc. then you will never fully understand Bitcoin.

@twentyfive, I didn’t write that large companies never will make changes to accommodate Bitcoin. But, the largest companies have huge accounting departments, and offices around the world, with software systems that have to be interoperable with other systems, etc. Changing to accommodate Bitcoin is not something that can happen overnight—there needs to be sophisticated software solutions that are coded specifically for Bitcoin, and there needs to be accounting regulations and laws that are amenable to using Bitcoin as a currency. Lots of work to do!

But, obviously that hasn’t stopped companies from acquiring Bitcoin to hold on their balance sheet. But, even that is not as good as it could be because the corporate accounting laws define Bitcoin as an indefinite lived intangible asset, which hinders the financials of the companies that hold the Bitcoins.

Legal tender in El Salvador, and now Prospera and Madeira and, soon, Mexico!

FTS, I mean this to save you embarrassment, we can see that you're liking your own posts...

You can?! Oh no, I’m so embarrassed! 🙃

I guess its pretty cool you're not ashamed of it. I know my nieces/nephews/kids had a big talk about how it's considered lame to like your own posts on social media.

I assume you're a millenial.

Bitcoin is too volatile for every day use. It makes no sense to use it

FTS is to Bitcoin Dave Anderson is to Alex Jones SJG is to the Organization

Three hopeless TUSCLers hawking their causes, earning nothing but ridicule in the process.

Sad. So sad.

Telling the average person to use bitcoin and that the amount of money they gave will fluctuate several times a day when they do is idiotic.

What next. An nft of a dollar? Or of a bitcoin? 🤣🤣😭

Using bitcoin to fund the organization?

"earning nothing but ridicule in the process."

Maybe my "hawking" hasn't earned me anything, but supporting my cause earned me a half milli so far. You can ridicule me all you want, doesn't make you any less WRONG, and it doesn't change the value of my bitcoins. Alex Jones ain't worth $1 trillion, and SJG's organization is completely fictional.

You got a problem with Bitcoin, you go take it up with these publicly traded companies: MARA, RIOT, HUT, BITF, CAN, CLSK, HIVE.

@ceoaticeesangelsllc, you want to know what's next? How about using Bitcoin as a flexible, on-demand, electrical load to make the shift towards using more renewable energy sources more economical?

youtube.com

You guys make fun of Bitcoin, and yet it's reached the level of becoming a tool to bolster our national security. Has the president of the United States issued an executive order regarding Alex Jones, or SJG's organization? Is SJG on Larry Fink's radar?

y'all need to wake the f up, or stop acting so immature.

"Maybe my "hawking" hasn't earned me anything, but supporting my cause earned me a half milli so far."

For someone so happy and secure about your investments, you sure have a weed up your ass about people who don't see the value of Holy Mother Bitcoin.

Why don't you take a few Satoshis and buy yourself some pussy. Might get you used to the trauma of being disagreed with on the internet.

I’m not ridiculing anyone, I would have to care about the situation to bother I’ve been investing for a long time, I have safe investments and speculative investments. Some things never change, the folks that buy the sizzle never get to enjoy the steak, once you’ve warned them it’s their decision to make as to what they want to do. I wish you well, but seriously I know better.

"For someone so happy and secure about your investments, you sure have a weed up your ass about people who don't see the value of Holy Mother Bitcoin." Not really, I just like to correct people when they're wrong; it's a way for me to help people and it makes me feel good. I would do a very similar thing if there were people on this forum who argued against a spherical model of the Earth and honestly believed in flat-Earth theory.

"I’m not ridiculing anyone," Yea, my comment wasn't really directed at you.

Here, I'll help you guys some more. Watch this very short video clip. Watch it a second or third time if you need to. Use your brain! Think about the origins and purpose of paper currency (an example of debt-money / money-of-account). If you want to dismiss the words of some of the most intellectual and entrepreneurial minds, go ahead, but you won't be able to say I didn't tell you so.

twitter.com

"it's a way for me to help people and it makes me feel good."

You know what else would make you feel good? A woman's mouth around your penis. Certainly Mr Bitcoin Millionaire, you can afford it. You might be a little less obnoxious that way.

"You know what else would make you feel good? A woman's mouth around your penis." At least we can agree on one thing.

I can't stop laughing. "I've made half a mill on crypto since 2017" "I just want to help people" "Wake up! Stop acting so immature"

That twitter link was amazing too. I sent it to my nephew in school for finance.

You may not like it, but this is what having fun being poor looks like.

To be a bitcoin millionaire you need to buy like 22 bitcoins at 44k each. Keep preaching that anyone can do it. But remind them they'll have to keep adding thousands of dollars to keep it at a million every time it goes down during a day.

@ceoaticeesangelsllc bitcoin.zorinaq.com

"I've made half a mill on crypto since 2017" "I just want to help people" "Wake up! Stop acting so immature"

Yea, I don't see what's so funny. I never claimed that others can gain an appreciation of value of a half million dollars; to do that requires a decent amount of capital to begin with. Obviously there have been others who've gained significantly more than me, and others who have gained significantly less. What matters is that Bitcoin doesn't discriminate; it doesn't matter if you're a teenager in a poor family of Nigeria, a woman in Afghanistan, or Michael Saylor--Bitcoin serves its purpose indiscriminately, and that purpose is to serve as a hard, sound, digital, global money.

Yes, I sold a bunch of stocks and mutual funds as soon as I realized that Bitcoin was the superior investment. That's how it works in finance; when you realize you're wrong, you change your investment behavior. You might think you're fine to just invest in stocks and mutual funds, getting 7-10% return on average over many years, but guess what... the USD money supply has also been increasing at about 7.5% per year for over half a century. Haven't you ever seen a chart of the S&P 500 denominated in ounces of gold? Denominated in gold, the S&P 500 is currently valued at the exact same price as it was in 1964, and only a 317% increase (1.5% annualized increase) since 1916!

Maybe you guys don't realize that holding Bitcoin is just a way of freezing the value of your labor in time in order to protect it from melting away due to inflation. You can try to do the same thing with gold, or with real estate, but those are inferior assets--new gold is mined at a rate of about 2% per year, and real estate requires maintenance, property taxes, insurance, and it's not fungible.

The smart money figured it out already. That's why I wrote what I wrote. Stop acting so immature, I'm trying to help you.

twitter.com twitter.com twitter.com twitter.com twitter.com twitter.com twitter.com

youtu.be

You sound like you're trying to sell timeshares or a pyramid scheme

Icey youve repeated the bitcoin volatile stuff many times in the thread

Also bitcoin millionaire generally means someone who made millions off bitcoin it doesnt mean you have a million bucks and just buy bitcoin

Like some random dominos worker was paid with bitcoin for a pizza he supposedly made millions off his bitcoin cuz theu were worth cents when he got them

If I was selling a pyramid scheme then I would have said something like, “you’ll get x dollars (or x%) for every person that you recruit. The more you recruit, the more money you make.”

Did I write that? NO! Because Bitcoin isn’t a pyramid scheme.

I’m totally fine with also recommending gold and real estate (I own some of both). But, if I’m intellectually honest, then I would have to admit that Bitcoin is superior insofar as these assets are used to preserve value over a long period of time (years). And, unlike gold and real estate, Bitcoin is actually useable as a convenient form of money.

🤷🏻‍♂️

You can buy a dozen online millionaires for a dime. Be happy with what you have.

Bitcoin can't even hold its value for a day. Selling a pipe dream while the majority lose on it is moronic. Skibum is right. Be happy with what you have and stop proselytizing

@ceoaticeesangelsllc, bitcoin.zorinaq.com

No one is going to wait 20 years for it to go up. People want to spend the money they have now without worrying about it being less by the next day

FTS, what do you think you're gaining by preaching Bitcoin on a board of strip club fans? Do you think you're going to convert someone who's going to send the price into the stratosphere?

Newsflash, bro. We're all billionaires here. And 275 pounds of solid muscle with 10.5-inch peckers. Because you can be whatever you want to be on the internet.

"Mining bitcoin will be instrumental in the next phase of human development and solving climate change"

LOLOLOLOL OMFG I FUCKING CAN'T BELIEVE THIS.

Proof of work is inherently energy intensive, there is no way around this. Its very 1984esque for crypto cultists to claim bitcoin is good for solving climate change.

At first they laugh at you, then they continue laughing. Then they're rolling on the floor laughing. Please stop I can't laugh any more. I can't stop laughing. Then you lose your catch phrase/you get exit scammed by the exchange you use. Sorry for your lose.

Scrubbie I wouldn't short bitcoin. It's so highly manipulated, we are nearly 150 posts into a topic about bitcoin being shit and tether hasn't even been brought up yet. Look up tether to see why shorting bitcoin is a bad idea.

what is the fee for a bitcoin transaction and how long does it take to confirm?

If i recall correctly, 90% of all transactions will be confirmed in ten to thirty minutes. Bitcoin considers zero delay to be confirmed in the next block. Besides the fee being higher for this, that means a minimum wait of five minutes on average. Confirmation times have gotten into days for low fee transactions.

i know, i don't understand, i should watch some video or you'll do a what about type question. I don't expect you to address these issues and how a business like Target would tolerate it. if you do address these issues, what do you think of the double spend problem? please answer in your own words, I don't want to watch a video.

FTS, I don't agree with you views about Cryto, or about securities speculation either.

But you posted something which is a good basis for common ground and discussion:

"Bitcoin is economic egalitarianism and freedom from the Boomer-privileged, exclusionary financial system."

"If you’re against Bitcoin, then, on behalf of 80% of the human race—go f*** yourself."

I feel that this is really the basis of your views, this idea that the world is unfair and that it got that way sometime after the boomers had made their mark.

Well on this I do agree with you, but probably not for the same reasons.

The high point of inflation adjusted purchasing power for the working man was 1969 to 1972. And it has gone steadily downhill ever since.

The time of highest growth in the US Economy was the Eisenhower Kennedy era, when to top federal income tax rate was 90%.

This high progressive rate plowed money back into circulation and that made jobs, business opportunities, and it meant R and D for staying competitive.

The US economy had though depended on an endless growth formula, which made us too dependent on nonrenewable and carbon energy sources. Eventually the nations supplying us with these wanted fair prices. So they organized OPEC and we had a recession. We also put lots of money into defense aerospace for Vietnam, Cold War, and the US Supersonic Transport.

When the plug was pulled there was a collapse.

Things have changed and they continue to.

Lots of people spent time and lots of money thinking they were training for careers, only to find that they had been tracked into jobs, at best.

This idea that people are supposed to self fund a retirement, and on top of an open ended housing cost inflation system to soak up your income, is non-sensical.

We had faced this in the Great Depression and Social Security was the solution. It still could be.

Women used to be dependent second class citizens, but they rejected this. But the leaders of the women's movement were radicals. More conservative voices have taken over, and so the new earning power gets used to inflate the real estate market leading to the dual income sized mortgage payment and a great risk of bankruptcy.

There is still good for us, but we have to re-examine our goals.

Tax evasion and ponzi schemes are not any answer. That kind of stuff just makes us more like a third world country.

SJG

GRAHAM BOND LIVE JULY 1 1972 part 1 youtube.com

"No one is going to wait 20 years for it to go up. People want to spend the money they have now without worrying about it being less by the next day."

-As I already wrote, if you have a high time preference (you care more about the present, than about your future, relative to the average person) then you are less inclined to grok Bitcoin.

"FTS, what do you think you're gaining by preaching Bitcoin on a board of strip club fans?"

-If anything at all, I think I'm getting a very small dopamine hit. Other than that... nothing. Again, my intention with this post was to share some good news.

And now, a brief lesson on how to recognize dishonest criticism-- When a person criticizes you, or your message, with insults or insulting language, without including evidence or some kind of message that is intended to correct your behavior, or your message, then you can be fairly confident that that person's criticism is dishonest, or, at best, malicious. Here is an example,

" 'Mining bitcoin will be instrumental in the next phase of human development and solving climate change' LOLOLOLOL OMFG I FUCKING CAN'T BELIEVE THIS. Proof of work is inherently energy intensive, there is no way around this. Its very 1984esque for crypto cultists to claim bitcoin is good for solving climate change. At first they laugh at you, then they continue laughing. Then they're rolling on the floor laughing. Please stop I can't laugh any more. I can't stop laughing. Then you lose your catch phrase/you get exit scammed by the exchange you use. Sorry for your lose."

-Notice how the bulk of the above criticism is the insulting, belittling language. The only part of the message that isn't belittling in nature is the true statement, "Proof of work is inherently energy intensive," which, really, borders on tautological. There is nothing in this criticism that offers a correction to the proposition that it criticizes. Because it offers no correction, or logical explanation of the false nature of the claims that it criticizes, then it is either a manipulation intended to distract the reader from the message that is being criticized, or it's just ridiculous and malicious taunting.

"BTC is DOWN again down almost 18% in a single week period headed down to 32,000 soon - i wish you could bet it short Bitcoin is down 20% in less than 10 days - now below 39,000.. remember next support level is 32,000 so it could be headed another 30 percent lower etherium is down 9% today alone major crypto losses across the board"

-Again, if you have a high time preference then you are less inclined to grok Bitcoin. My suggestion is that you ZOOM OUT. How many times do I have to link to this site? bitcoin.zorinaq.com How much did the price of Bitcoin move on that chart? A few pixels? Again, a price is an exchange ratio. It is the ratio of the quantity of one thing being exchange for another. What are the things being exchanged? Bitcoin, which is of a fixed, finite supply, and fiat currency, which is fundamentally unlimited in its supply. Being concerned about the day-to-day price changes of Bitcoin is like paying attention to the ripples in the water of a calm beach as a tsunami comes barreling towards you, at a distance, with a speed of 500 mph. Why would you be concerned with the day-to-day changes of the USDBTC exchange ratio when it's a mathematical certainty that the Fed will, eventually, print QUADRILLIONS of dollars?!

"what is the fee for a bitcoin transaction and how long does it take to confirm? If i recall correctly, 90% of all transactions will be confirmed in ten to thirty minutes. Bitcoin considers zero delay to be confirmed in the next block. Besides the fee being higher for this, that means a minimum wait of five minutes on average. Confirmation times have gotten into days for low fee transactions. i know, i don't understand, i should watch some video or you'll do a what about type question. I don't expect you to address these issues and how a business like Target would tolerate it. if you do address these issues, what do you think of the double spend problem? please answer in your own words, I don't want to watch a video."

-The fee for final settlement on the Bitcoin blockchain varies over time according to supply and demand. The current fee is about 5 sats/vB (less than $1 to move an arbitrary amount of money. $1 fee to move $1 billion is a fee of less than 0.000001%). It's important to compare like for like, i.e. compare things that are within the same category. Comparing the final settlement on-chain transaction of Bitcoin to a credit card transaction is NOT a like-for-like comparison. Final settlement within the traditional financial system takes days, and sometimes weeks or months. A familiar analogy to the Bitcoin final settlement is an ACH transaction, which typically takes at least 1 business day. So, the comparison of Bitcoin final settlement to traditional final settlement is 10 mins vs 1-3 business days. The topic of the OP was about the inclusion of Lightning transactions at the point-of-sale. The Lightning network is somewhat comparable to credit card transactions in that it is not AS final as an on-chain transaction (although, unlike CC transactions, Lightning transactions aren't reversible--a 2nd Lightning transaction is needed for any kind of reverse payment / refunding activity. This means Lightning transactions are quite final, unlike CC transactions.), but it is almost instantaneous, like the credit card networks, and it can process millions of transactions per second, which is a huge leap in superiority over the credit card networks. It's also much cheaper than credit card transactions, which is why merchants such as Target would not only tolerate it, but welcome it.

Regarding the double-spend problem--the double-spend problem was solved by Satoshi Nakamoto in 2008.

Perhaps all you Bitcoin-haters should grow a pair of balls, watch this speech given by former Fed Chair and current Treasury Secretary, Janet Yellen, and then look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself if you're prepared to take responsibility for your position on Bitcoin. If you are, and you're (falsely) confident that Bitcoin is just a fad that is going to zero, then I am begging you--SHORT IT! Take out a huge loan on your home equity and take out a massive, leveraged short position on Bitcoin. It's definitely going to zero, right?! So take out the largest short position you possible can. PLEEEAAASE DO IT!!! Short the motherfucking Bitcoin to zero!

(That was sarcasm; if you do that, you will lose all of your money and you'll be homeless).

A segment from Treasury Secretary's speech, given today, April 11th, 2022: youtube.com

^^ Correction to my previous comment--the speech by Janet Yellen was given on April 7th, not today, April 11th.

"look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself if you're prepared to take responsibility for your position on Bitcoin."

Yes I am. Im making the decision based on facts set forth in front of me and my own experience using bitcoin/blockchain. Its clunky and not very user friendly. Mass adoption won't happen. The average American doesn't want to be their own bank. I'm not sure what you do for work, but I work in finance. I made it clear to my higher ups its too much effort to work in crypto and I'd look for another job if asked to do so. Try to do financial analysis/reporting with blockchain/crypto.

"$1 fee to move $1 billion is a fee of less than 0.000001%)." cool but a highly inaccurate answer. bitcoin transactions fees are currently 1.50 USD and has been as high as 14 USD. This is per transaction. Not per Billion dollars. I bought milk yesterday, it was just under 2 USD. I used my credit card. it was still under 2 USD. CVS kindly absorbed the small transaction fee VISA charged. I doubt they will absorb 1.55 USD to use BTC. that will be passed on to me making the milk 3.50 USD. nearly 80% transaction fee to buy milk.

My credit card transactions are on my account instantly. Do not confuse a nightly account posting with transaction confirmation. Or worse, confusing disbursement to the vendor with confirmation. Doing so makes you look like you have no idea what you are talking about.

it sounds as if you are promoting a middleman to handle this, to track my spending. Doesn't this go counter to the entire BTC removes all middlemen and makes our purchases anonymous? Who is regulating the middlemen?

the double spend issue was not solved. it was at best mitigated. It relies on timestamps and voting by all nodes. this ensures the integrity of the block chain but if someone is quick enough, and with the help of computers some are, a guy can spend the bitcoin twice. only the first transaction will count. the second vendor gets screwed. The solution per BTC people is to have one network handle your BTC transactions. In other words, to address the problems with using BTC as a currency, they want a central bank, just don't call it a central bank.

the voting by all nodes also has other problems.

Every transaction requires every active node to vote. Consider the volume of transaction in society. BTC is averaging under 2000 transactions per block. A new block is generated every ten minutes. In order to get the necessary transaction times, they need someone, a central bank perhaps, to aggregate the transactions. To make this work, a central aggregator, or bank, would need to keep the volume of transactions under 2000/ten minutes. We could have 2000 banks and a Fed that would balance the books between these banks... wow, almost exactly the structure we have in place already, just using BTC and not dollars.

the democracy of BTC, touted as a major reason to go with BTC, introduces potential issues. Someone with enough nodes could change the rules and fees. This was a story line in Silicon Valley. But could it happen in real life? yes, years ago, one of the mining rig companies refused to deploy a particular software update to fix an issue. The people owning these rigs largely wanted the update made but this company refused to make the change. the voting occurred, the rule did not because one company decided to not implement the change.

Consider China. Hackers have installed BTC mining software on browsers and used someone else's compute power to participate in mining pools. If China wished, they could require every PC, tablet and phone in China to become a node. None of these nodes would be effective at mining but they would all have a vote on the rules and on transactions. I wonder how much money they could make if all transactions had to be verified by a Chinese government node. Would BTC survive?

the solution according to BTC fans is to ignore the issue or suggest a central bank of some kind. Just don't call it a central bank.

And let's not forget, the real solution to all of these is to call any one with legitimate questions or criticism a bit coin hater and a coward.

have you taken your own advice and taken out a huge loan on your house to buy bitcoin?

BTC is highly volatile. If the USA or EU start to seriously regulate it, it could drop to nothing or soar to new highs. There are serious underlying flaws in BTC even if you refuse to admit it.

The SP 500 has a long-term ROI of over 12%. Even with a long-term average inflation rate of 2.5 %, I double my money every 7 or 8 years, on average. The infrastructure is in place for me to use my money anywhere in the world. when I wish to do something anonymously or without smart phones, I can always get cash from millions of machines around the world.

I don't hate BTC, I have what I consider are better short term and long-term investments WRT stability, security and usability. When I ask questions of the BTC fans they give me inaccurate or incomplete answers, ignore the issue or call me a BTC hater. They never properly address my concerns or questions.

@K, I think you are purposely being deceptive and spreading false information, or you are just lazy and didn’t read everything that I wrote.

“ cool but a highly inaccurate answer. bitcoin transactions fees are currently 1.50 USD and has been as high as 14 USD. This is per transaction.”

-I can say emphatically, and with complete confidence, that that statement is completely false.

1. First of all, on-chain transactions are NOT priced in dollars. Please read, again, what I wrote. At the time that I wrote my last message, the on-chain transaction fee was about 5 sats/vB. Read that again. 5 SATS/VB. Did you read “USD” anywhere in that fee? No, because transaction fees are not priced in dollars, they are priced in the native currency of Bitcoin.
2. yes, that is per ON-CHAIN transaction. On-chain transactions are FINAL, unlike credit-card transactions. Did you purposely ignore what I wrote? People won’t be buying milk by final settlement. Do people use ACH or Wire transfers to buy milk? NO! Why are you being deceptive??

“I used my credit card. it was still under 2 USD. CVS kindly absorbed the small transaction fee VISA charged. I doubt they will absorb 1.55 USD to use BTC. that will be passed on to me making the milk 3.50 USD. nearly 80% transaction fee to buy milk.”

-Again, why are you spreading false information?! Why are you comparing CC transactions to the final settlement transactions of Bitcoin??

You are also wrong about CVS “kindly [absorbing] the small transaction fee VISA charged.” CVS doesn’t kindly pay for things for you! CVS is trying to make a profit! The cost of the CC transaction is absorbed into the cost of the goods and services sold by CVS, I.e. if they used a cheaper payment network then the price of their goods and services would be cheaper!

“My credit card transactions are on my account instantly. Do not confuse a nightly account posting with transaction confirmation. Or worse, confusing disbursement to the vendor with confirmation. Doing so makes you look like you have no idea what you are talking about.”

-I am making no confusion, you are the one spreading false information. DO NOT COMPARE CC TRANSACTIONS WITH THE FINAL SETTLEMENT BITCOIN TRANSACTIONS! CC transactions are NOT final!

Fuck off with your misinformation. I tried to give you the information you were seeking, but clearly you just wanted to bring up these topics so you could spread misinformation. Fuck off.

^ You condemn people for being anything less than perfect angels when they respond to you, then when they bring up legit concerns you cuss them out for "misinformation."

Because if you're skeptical of Bitcoin, you must hate mom, apple pie, freedom, democracy, and Jesus!

Pissy little bitch.

It's like watching Elon Musk and Donald Trump debate............................cabbage varieties.

“Yes I am.” -Short it.

“Its clunky and not very user friendly.” -There is nothing clunky or not user friendly about scanning a QR code with a smartphone camera. What’s clunky is pulling out a checkbook, writing your transaction details, signing it like you’re John Hancock signing the Declaration of Independence, tearing it off and handing it to the cash register, and then the merchant has to handle all those checks.

“Mass adoption won't happen.” -Yea, they said that back when Satoshi Nakamoto was still around in 2009. Here we are, 13 years later, and over 100 million people use Bitcoin. Do you realize what that means? That means, if Bitcoin users were their own country, then Bitcoin users would rank within the top 15 countries by population! Methinks mass adoption has already started.

“The average American doesn't want to be their own bank.” -The average American doesn’t want to lose money, or be the victim of robbery.

“I'm not sure what you do for work, but I work in finance.” -I’m a physicist, who’s spent lots of time studying finance and economics.

^ You're like that guy handing out hellfire-and-brimstone pamphlets outside the strip club. Only more obnoxious.

"First of all, on-chain transactions are NOT priced in dollars." i did not say they were. Your OP was about buying products at retail stores. the products we buy will be priced in dollars. I guess i was mistaken when i assumed you understood your own OP.

Either I pay the BTC transaction fee myself or I need to use someone that aggregates purchases and sales to minimize transaction fees. In other words, a bank. I thought my point was obvious to anyone with basic reading skills.

'Why are you being deceptive??" I am not. maybe you don't understand your own OP. read the sentence where YOU mention credit card transaction fees. Don't you think you were deceptive when you start by discussing common retail purchases in your OP and the transaction fee for 1 billion dollars in a later post and not the transaction fee for an actual common retail purchase?

"Why are you comparing CC transactions to the final settlement transactions of Bitcoin??" because of your OP where you do exactly that

"CC transactions are NOT final!" you do not understand the difference between confirmation, nightly posting and disbursement. I was discussing confirmation only.

"DO NOT COMPARE CC TRANSACTIONS WITH THE FINAL SETTLEMENT BITCOIN TRANSACTIONS!" so why did you bring them up in your OP?

"Fuck off with your misinformation. I tried to give you the information you were seeking, but clearly you just wanted to bring up these topics so you could spread misinformation. Fuck off." if you tried, you failed miserably. as predicted expected, instead of actually addressing my concerns, you throw a tantrum.

“You condemn people for being anything less than perfect angels when they respond to you, then when they bring up legit concerns you cuss them out for misinformation.”

-This TUSCL user, K, initially responded by asking questions, as if he didn’t know the answers to his own questions. I then responded very genuinely with truthful information. His response was not only a complete disregard of the information that I provided, but also a response that makes it seem as if he is already (falsely) confident in his understanding of the topics that he was initial questioning. How else should I interpret that, other than a display of deception and malicious spreading of misinformation? If he already perceived his own understanding as being accurate, then it’s dishonest to then ask for information on those topics as if you don’t already have confidence in your own understanding.

“ Because if you're skeptical of Bitcoin, you must hate mom, apple pie, freedom, democracy, and Jesus!” -No, Tetradon, actually the complete opposite! Yes, one OUGHT to be skeptical of Bitcoin! But K is clearly not skeptical, he’s dismissive of the truth and just spreading false information!

For instance: regarding the transaction fee, the actual, network-determined transaction fee can be viewed at this website: jochen-hoenicke.de . One will notice that the quoted fees are in satoshis/vB. So, why would K then characterize the transaction fees as a quantity of USD?! The transaction fees are not in dollars! It’s also a misrepresentation to write that people would be buying every-day items like milk and coffee using the final settlement on-chain transactions. This is ridiculous?

And you call me a pissy little bitch? It’s like I’m being accused of being a bitch for teaching flat-earthers that the Earth is round! This is pathetic! How about you guys take a little responsibility for the things that you write? Own up to your mistakes, and your false statements, like I do! That’s what it means to be a man. The bitch is the coward who can’t admit when he’s wrong.

“ ‘Why are you comparing CC transactions to the final settlement transactions of Bitcoin??’ because of your OP where you do exactly that“ -No, I don’t. Go back and re-read it. I think you’re conflating Bitcoin transactions with Lightning transactions.

I’ll wait for you to admit you were wrong. Do a little more research on Lightning Network.

“ ‘First of all, on-chain transactions are NOT priced in dollars.’ i did not say they were“ -You quoted them in dollars, which is not accurate. On-chain transactions are not quoted in dollars, they’re quoted in satoshis and they are dependent on the size of the transaction data. Again, quoting them in dollars is a misrepresentation.

“read the sentence where YOU mention credit card transaction fees. Don't you think you were deceptive when you start by discussing common retail purchases in your OP and the transaction fee for 1 billion dollars in a later post and not the transaction fee for an actual common retail purchase?“ -No, I wasn’t deceptive at all. YOU were the one who brought up on-chain transactions, not me. Go back and re-read.

Again, I’ll wait for you to admit you are wrong. Don’t be a coward; take responsibility for your mistake.

"And you call me a pissy little bitch? It’s like I’m being accused of being a bitch for teaching flat-earthers that the Earth is round!"

No, I'm calling you a pissy little bitch because of your tissue paper-thin skin responses to legitimate questions.

My personal crypto expertise is limited; based on the limited research I've done, it is not something I feel comfortable investing in (reasons outlined above). You know what? Maybe if I devoted 20 hours a week to studying this stuff, I'd think otherwise. But guess what, to me, and to many of us, it isn't our life's priority. The same way taking up model rocketry, studying the Bhagavad-Gita in the original Sanskrit, needlepoint, or learning the tongues of Papua New Guinea are not my life's priority. Nothing wrong with them, but there are only so many hours in the day. When someone is trying to shove their personal interests up my ass, yeah, that gets obnoxious.

Your Bitcoin fervor appears religious, not economic, as evidenced by the way you take any skepticism personally, and act like the only person with a pipeline to the truth. You don't see the glory of Bitcoin! Fuck you! You hate the common people! You must be a boomer!

That's why people are responding to you like you're a troll, because you are acting like one.

Un-fuck yourself.

“No, I'm calling you a pissy little bitch because of your tissue paper-thin skin responses to legitimate questions.” -A lot of these questions don’t seem genuine. I’ve repeated many points several times, and nobody seems to want to have a little courage and say, “ya know what, FTS is right about this particular point.” Why not? Who is the bitch? I’m just sitting here writing what I know to be truthful, and calling people out on what they write as either being false, or what I perceive to be deceptive spreading of misinformation.

“ You know what? Maybe if I devoted 20 hours a week to studying this stuff, I'd think otherwise. But guess what, to me, and to many of us, it isn't our life's priority. ” -So, where is the appreciation? I actually HAVE spent hundreds of hours studying this topic. And people have the gall to write that I’m wrong when they haven’t done the research themselves.

Methinks some of you are PROJECTING. Go ahead, do a little research. I’ll wait.

"So, where is the appreciation?" LOL is this it? You want validation from random guys on a titty bar message board? Tell me, is your penis really that small?

"I’m just sitting here writing what I know to be truthful," So am I. You're a pissy little bitch.

Thank you FTS for putting hundreds of hours into understanding bitcoin. I really appreciate it.

This is a classic, who’d thunk a bunch of idjits would get their panties in a bunch over Bitcoin on a titty bar website

" ‘So, where is the appreciation?’ LOL is this it? You want validation from random guys on a titty bar message board?” -Not really. You’re the one who brought up the many hours of education that’s required to understand this stuff, so you acknowledge that there is a lot of time needed to figure this stuff out. I’m calling you out on your lack of appreciation for being provided the truth that would otherwise require many hours of studying to find. I would do the same thing in any other setting. In fact, if you look at my profile you’ll notice that I’ve started quite a few discussions about Bitcoin already, so I knew that I would receive this kind of feedback before I started the discussion.

“‘I’m just sitting here writing what I know to be truthful,’ So am I. You're a pissy little bitch.” -I’m not the one who started the trolling and insulting. I offered up a piece of news, and right away you started with the negativity. “Bitcoin is based on the premise that you can sell it to a bigger sucker at a higher price.”

Taking responsibility isn’t being a bitch. Making a commitment to what is true isn’t being a bitch.

No, the bitch is the negative person who doesn’t have the balls to look at himself/herself. Notice that I’m not directly calling you a bitch, I’m offering you some advice so that you can better yourself.

But, go ahead, keep insulting me until you’re finished. I can take it. Get it out of your system.

"I’m calling you out on your lack of appreciation for being provided the truth that would otherwise require many hours of studying to find."

Perhaps I'd be inspired to convert to Islam if I spent a few thousand hours reading the Quran, but it isn't a priority. Do we say that because the people who studied it the most are the most fervent believers, it has to be true?

If you want validation, see a psych to evaluate the emotional void that led you to this need.

"No, the bitch is the negative person who doesn’t have the balls to look at himself/herself." Incorrect. That's just not the definition of the term. The bitch is the one who gets religiously attached to something that should be a purely economic question. Even if one were to concede (and I'm not) that everything technical you've said is right, your salvific view of Bitcoin as the next stage in human evolution is comical.

"I’m offering you some advice so that you can better yourself." And it's worth every Satoshi I've spent on it.

If you didn't want validation you wouldn't be begging for it.

^ Didn’t you just make a big post where you added him to your ignore list, LULZZZ

Speaking of lying about Amazon accepting crypto, our very own FTS lied about paying using bitcoin on amazon 2 years ago. Cannot trust this dude he just wants to spread his pyramid scheme and he'll do anything including lie to do it.

tuscl.net

Here ya go, y’all. Learn something:

twitter.com

youtu.be

BitCoin allows fractional coins. So even if there were just one BitCoin, its still infinitely divisible into more.

SJG

“ Even if one were to concede (and I'm not) that everything technical you've said is right, your salvific view of Bitcoin as the next stage in human evolution is comical.” -That’s a nice straw man, but let’s not make straw men in this thread, okay? I welcome you to steelman my arguments, but let’s not make straw men.

“our very own FTS lied about paying using bitcoin on amazon 2 years ago.” -Please provide a link to the post in which I lied, as I am dubious of this claim. I may have reported about a news article which made that claim, but I don’t think I ever wrote that “Amazon is definitely going to add a Bitcoin payment option within X amount of time”

“ If you didn't want validation you wouldn't be begging for it.” -Where did I write “please, please agree with me?” Y’all are fucking wrong, plain and simple. I’m not going to compromise my integrity just because you disagree with me and you like to throw insults.

“ Far as BTC - we sadly disagree one final point, well actually 2:

1. the crypto industry has false flagged a number of events, the industry is full of bots on twitter, posting fake events (such as the recent false flag that AMAZON was gonna accept BTC)
2. The crypto industry states that it is a great way to diversify from stocks, however if you look at the charts - stocks and crypto are CLOSELY corelated.”

-See, this is just another example of intellectual dishonesty. You just wrote “As far as BTC” and then you went on to talk about crypto. Hellloooo! Crypto =/= Bitcoin! Regarding your 2nd point, they have only recently become loosely correlated. If you look at the entire Bitcoin history you’ll find that Bitcoin goes through periods of being correlated and periods of being totally uncorrelated. That’s quite unlike e.g. NASDAQ and SPX, which are pretty much always highly correlated.

Lolz on the soft-balled old men dependent on the Pfizer blue pill.

This thread is getting far off topic. The original topic was about the announcement that point-of-sale device companies would be adding the Lightning Network as an alternative payment network to the credit cards, which means you’ll be able to pay for goods and services at some of the largest retailers using the Lightning Network.

"Bitcoin is economic egalitarianism and freedom from the Boomer-privileged, exclusionary financial system. If you’re against Bitcoin, then, on behalf of 80% of the human race—go f*** yourself"

"Yea… you guys just keep on looking out for #1. Enjoy your financial privilege while excluding the rest of the world!"

"It has nothing to do with his intellectual capacity, his career success as a clinical psychologist, and his commitment to promoting that which is GOOD and RIGHT." (your reference to Bitcoin as "that which is GOOD and RIGHT")

"The anti-bitcoin comments on the forum are shameful."

"I’m offering the good news because it’s good" (direct religious terminology!)

OK, now I'm halfway down the thread and bored of finding the ways you talk about Bitcoin in religious terms.

I accept your apology.

Lots of economic changes in our society which do make it tougher on younger people, but BitCoin is in no way a solution.

SJG

religion noun a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

My only apology will be to say, "I'm sorry that you're wrong, again, Tetradon." "good" and "right" are not exclusively religious terms. Those are terms that are used in religious settings, but so are words like "the," "and," "cross," "light," "truth," etc. Sharing good news with people, because it's good, is NOT an activity that is exclusively within the domain of religion. Wanna know how I know that? Because atheists also share good news with their friends. That's what normal people do, regardless of their point-of-view on the origins of life, and the universe, and their moral code.

I'm sorry that you're wrong!

"...view of Bitcoin as the next stage in human evolution is comical.” -Did you forget about this one? Where did I talk about Bitcoin as the next stage of human evolution?

c'mon Tetradon, don't be building straw men.

And, again...

"This thread is getting far off topic. The original topic was about the announcement that point-of-sale device companies would be adding the Lightning Network as an alternative payment network to the credit cards, which means you’ll be able to pay for goods and services at some of the largest retailers using the Lightning Network."

^ Quoted above.

"That which is good and right."

Your attempts to wriggle out on multiple definitions are as comical as your sentiments.

You're the ranting doomsayer on the street corner, the Jehovah's Witness banging on my door, the Amway salesman promising millions.

Only even more annoying.

And the Jehovah's Witness and the Amway salesman are both not that much different from the BitCoin booser.

SJG

FTS, I linked the thread in my original comment calling you out for lying about paying using bitcoin on Amazon.

tuscl.net

Click the above link^^ even though it says tuscl its the link.

Feb 22 2020 from FTS

"*How did I make an Amazon purchase a couple weeks ago by only spending my bitcoins? Is Amazon part of the dark web? Better luck next time...."

“FTS, I linked the thread in my original comment calling you out for lying about paying using bitcoin on Amazon.”

-That wasn’t really a lie, I really did make a purchase on Amazon by only spending my Bitcoins, and I can still do that now whenever I want. Notice that that is not the same as writing that Amazon has a Bitcoin checkout option. It may not have been the best way of wording it, but I consider it to be effectively paying for things with bitcoins—

paywithmoon.com

“You're the ranting doomsayer on the street corner, the Jehovah's Witness banging on my door, the Amway salesman promising millions.” -ad hominem.

"This thread is getting far off topic. The original topic was about the announcement that point-of-sale device companies would be adding the Lightning Network as an alternative payment network to the credit cards, which means you’ll be able to pay for goods and services at some of the largest retailers using the Lightning Network."

"ad hominem"

Your quasi religious arguments don't fall within the realm of logic, therefore do not merit a logical response.

Lol, you're the one who said Bitcoin was awesome because Jordan Peterson.

I don't want to get off topic either but Jordan Peterson is not someone young men should be looking up to. I did see see your last thread about being a PL for a night, please do not take anything Jordan Peterson says to heart- relating to women or finances.

I will stick to cash.

“Your quasi religious arguments” -Nothing that I wrote, about bitcoin, was dependent upon or concerned itself with “a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe.” Also, nothing that I wrote was dependent upon or concerned itself with “the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies.” Additionally, nothing that I wrote was dependent upon or concerned itself with “devotional and ritual observances.”

Therefore, none of my arguments about bitcoin could logically be described as “religious.”

“This thread is getting far off topic. The original topic was about the announcement that point-of-sale device companies would be adding the Lightning Network as an alternative payment network to the credit cards, which means you’ll be able to pay for goods and services at some of the largest retailers using the Lightning Network."

^ LOL. Just democracy and the world financial system.

Jordan Peterson! Insert random ticker here! Therefore it's awesome!

The lightening payment system is already working well. I used blue wallet down at the bitcoin 2022 convention in Miami to pay for small items and it was instant and no hassle.
I also spent some time showing the girls at Deans Gold how to set up bitcoin wallets because a few said guys had asked to pay them in bitcoin. I showed them how to pay and get paid and how to watch for 2 confirms on the traditional network.

Using Crypto's creates more records, not less.

SJG

Here ya go, y’all—Bitcoin was just featured on 60 Minutes this past weekend. Try to learn something, okay?

cbsnews.com

^ A tiny town in El Salvador? Well that settles it!

There has been much degradation to our economy in the last 40 years. But Bitcoin is probably the worst of it.

SJG

Intro to Kabbalah Part I - The Tree of Life & Hebrew Letters youtube.com

The second sentence in that cbs article says Russia is using bitcoin to avoid sanctions.

The only use case for bitcoin is for transactions the US government would block, like things to Russia, animal torture videos, and pedo shit. If this is something you want to support do it. The best I can do is educate people on how depraved bitcoin is.

“The only use case for bitcoin is for transactions the US government would block.” -Correction: ONE of the use cases of Bitcoin is for making transactions that ANY individual or organization, whether they are good or evil, would want to censor. Just like automobiles, penicillin, and the internet, Bitcoin is a liberating technology that empowers anybody who uses it.

@BitcoinHodler/CTLennay—YOU are depraved if you would wish to deprive society of this fundamental freedom. Sick people are going to torture animals regardless of Bitcoin’s existence; it’s not as if evil was only just introduced in 2008.

I’ve written it once, and I’ll write it again—you’re an idiot. I have very little respect for you.

And you make these unlawful transactions and in so doing you announce yourself to the feds, no less so than the Russian Oligarchs do.

Lots wrong with our society, but BitCoin is one of the things making it worse.

SJG

Here ya go everybody, another resource for ya. Learn something— podcasts.apple.com

Yeah, these nitwits make money for themselves by preaching Libertarian idiocy.

FTS, you have always seemed like you are not completely stupid. You should have more important things to conern yourself with.

SJG

You taking attacks on bitcoin so personal is why people think bitcoin is so culty/a pseudo-religion.

I don't think you're an idiot, just one a millions of young men who fell into the incel/libertarian rabbit hole. People like Jordan Peterson prey on your lack of skills and monetize on it. Bitcoin does the same. You only read things that agree with you and your echo chamber emboldens you into thinking you are correct. I hope you find a young lady who will pull you out of it.

To those who suggested that bitcoin is less anonymous than cash, that is true. However, how many girls are taking cashapp, venmo, and zelle? Quite a few. Bitcoin is better than any of those as the banks often shut their accounts down when compliance decides illegal activities might be occuring. Bitcoin won't shut you down.

"Bitcoin does the same. You only read things that agree with you and your echo chamber emboldens you into thinking you are correct." -This is true of many people, but when it comes to how I invest my money I am actually very careful. In this particular case, I spent many hours studying the opposing viewpoints. I carefully examined the arguments of people who proclaim that Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme (it isn't), people who claim that it has no value (it does), e.g. Peter Schiff, and I carefully examined the claims of people who say that Bitcoin is bad for the environment (it isn't).

No, @BitcoinHodler/CTLennay, I read arguments and I evaluate them based on truth and logic. Sure, I admit that Bitcoin may appear, from the outside, to be a cult (of course, perceptions can be false). But no, it can't be considered a religion based on the definition of the word "religion." This is an example of how I carefully consider the truth and validity of arguments. You've made the claim that my arguments about Bitcoin are religious, and I went to the dictionary to find out if that claim could be considered true. Do words have meaning? If you don't think words have meaning, then fine, my arguments are "religious," but then they are also "cloudy," and "stairs," and "hamburger," and "unjeliframbic."

"I hope you find a young lady who will pull you out of it." -Pull me out of what, exactly? Critical thinking and prudent decision-making? My interests in science, technology, philosophy, and economics? If she wants to pull me out of those things then, no thank you, I'll pass for now.

" In this particular case, I spent many hours studying the opposing viewpoints. I carefully examined the arguments of people who proclaim that Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme (it isn't), people who claim that it has no value (it does), e.g. Peter Schiff, and I carefully examined the claims of people who say that Bitcoin is bad for the environment (it isn't)."

Actually, you asserted without evidence, you cited a few scattered "experts" as proof of your righteousness, or deny things you said (that proof of work is energy intensive). Now you're repeating "look how right I am!"

You're boring and pseudo-intellectual.

Actually, you just changed the subject to avoid dealing with the fact that what I wrote is true.

You can’t even tell the truth about what I wrote in this thread! When the hell did I ever write that proof of work isn’t energy intensive? Why do you make up lies?

You’re a liar.

If you are "energy intensive," you are not good for the environment. You are asking us to trust your word based on research you claimed (you're just a guy on the internet) and a selected group of guys and companies (Jordan Peterson, lol).

Now you're calling Bitcoin "liberating." You're such a fucking fanboy.

As Icee says, lulz.

I meant a young lady who will pull you out of the whole Jordan Peterson thing.

Bitcoin is bad for the environment. There's no way around this friend.

Bitcoins value only is whatever someone would pay for it. As a result coiners are heavily incentived to recruit more people in.

A deflationary currency is not good. A currency and store of value aren't the same thing. Bitcoin isn't a good store of value.

"If you are 'energy intensive,' you are not good for the environment." -Jesus H Christ, how ignorant are you? Energy is a natural component of the physical universe; "energy intensive = not good for the environment" is a false equivalency. And, by the way, all of human civilization is energy intensive! Our air-conditioners, our lights, our aircraft-carriers, our Christmas lights, dryers, televisions, cars, and the computers and mobile devices that we use to access TUSCL ... all consume energy. You know what consumes energy AND produces greenhouse gasses? Cows! Oh, I guess cows are bad for the environment, despite the fact that they're a naturally occurring organism within the environment. Saying something is bad for the environment because it uses energy is something that a kindergarten student might say; that statement has no nuance, no depth of thought, no reasoning... it's just a false statement. How have you remained within our civilization with such lack of critical thinking skills?

Tell you what, when you sell all your electrical devices, join the Amish, live only on the energy of the sun, and never fart again... then I'll give up my Bitcoin.

"Now you're calling Bitcoin 'liberating.'" -What else would you call a monetary system that is uncensorable, seizure resistant, completely permissionless, and of a fixed supply? Is the traditional banking system uncensorable? No. Is the money in your bank account seizure resistant? No. Is it permissionless? No. Is it of a fixed supply? Absolutely not.

Oh, but it's "not liberating." I'm not merely a fanboy, I'm calling you out your ignorance. If you said the Earth was flat I would be calling you out on that as well. Try learning something: youtu.be, youtu.be, youtu.be, youtube.com

"Bitcoin is bad for the environment. There's no way around this friend." -False. Bitcoin is merely an informational protocol. Claiming that it's bad for the environment is as ignorant as saying TCP/IP is bad for the environment.

Here, allow me to Steelman your position: "Given the assumption that greenhouse gas production in large volumes, by humans, significantly changes the climate in such a way that will eventually be catastrophic for human civilization, mining Bitcoin by using the energy of fossil fuels is bad for the environment when the byproduct is a greenhouse gas."

Goddamn, am I the only one on this forum that can think?

I look at you as an unthinking Parrott, parroting the views of those who think. Hope that helps.

“ Hope that helps.” -Typical boomer; when shown to be wrong, just use the insults. No humility, apparently.

Parrots don’t earn master’s degrees from Ivy League universities.

^ This is the internet, where we all have Harvard MDs, Yale JDs, and Stanford MBAs.

But wherever you went to school, guess you didn't learn how to address climate change, or any verbal matters of nuance or degree. You look autistic, not clever.

Good luck recruiting fellow Bitcoin fanboys here. They might push up the value of your investment a nickel or two.

Hodl!

Typical of the young, they are the single weakest, most easily offended group in history. Always overreact; always hurt feelings. Bitcoin reminds me of the late 1990s stock market; you know the one where companies didn't need to make money to be worth a lot. By the way little boy, when arguing the future, until it happens, no one is right or wrong.

“ ^ This is the internet, where we all have Harvard MDs, Yale JDs, and Stanford MBAs.” -The implication is that I’m lying? Why don’t you request some proof of my degree, and see what happens?

“Typical boomer…” “Typical of the young…” -“Mimicry is the sincerest form of flattery.” Or, perhaps… parrot?

And, yes, I am offended by dishonesty. Not going to apologize for that.

“when arguing the future” -Hmm… I don’t recall making arguments about the future. I don’t feel like scrolling up, please quote the writing in which I made such an argument.

I get it, y’all aren’t motivated to do any research, and you’re not going to be convinced by a stranger on a strip club website. That’s fine, I don’t mind, I’m just cleaning up the mess of misinformation that y’all are bringing into this thread that I made. If you don’t care about Bitcoin, then here’s an idea: stop commenting. Stop steering the thread off the original topic, which is just a piece of news.

Stop being so sensitive :-P

"The implication is that I’m lying? Why don’t you request some proof of my degree, and see what happens?" OK sugar tits, do it. And while you're at it, show me why that degree means you're right.

"If you don’t care about Bitcoin, then here’s an idea: stop commenting." Here's a better idea, if you don't want something commented on, don't post it on a public fucking board!

FTS is just another whiny little punk. People with real money and real information don't share it on sites like this.

^ Except Juice, May God Rest His Soul

Crypto Currencies are pure idiocy!

SJG

Christine Keeler - Profumo Scandal youtube.com

Spoiled milk? Lol

That might explain the creep's fetish for Cesar Chavez's feet, it seems that he's trying to compensate for his own affliction.

“OK sugar tits, do it. And while you're at it, show me why that degree means you're right.” -What is with you people and changing the topic by putting words in my mouth? News flash: I never claimed that having an advanced degree means I’m right.

“FTS is just another whiny little punk. People with real money and real information don't share it on sites like this.” -Yawn.

Here’s another resource for y’all. Learn something: braiins.com

In case that one isn’t academic enough for ya, here’s this one: link.springer.com

^ Thought you were going to prove your degree. Don't disappoint me.

We don't trust a lot of things you say, FTS.

"That wasn’t really a lie, I really did make a purchase on Amazon by only spending my Bitcoins, and I can still do that now whenever I want. Notice that that is not the same as writing that Amazon has a Bitcoin checkout option. It may not have been the best way of wording it, but I consider it to be effectively paying for things with bitcoins"......... by exchanging bitcoin for a virtual debit card via paywithmoon.com

Wow! By that logic I can use my labor to make purchases on Amazon. I still don't understand how you can look at that sequence and not realize you are using fiat with extra steps... unless you're being deceitful on purpose to make bitcoin seem more useful than it is.

^^You are arguing over semantics, and that’s perfectly fine; semantical consensus is essential for reaching consensus on everything else. However, I think my description was not only accurate but also appropriate and in-line with the common usage of those words and phrases. Writing something like “I can make purchases on Amazon by only spending my labor,” would not really be in accordance with common speech and it wouldn’t really be accurate because labor is not a monetary good.

When people use the word “spend” in this context, they’re typically conveying the idea that they gave up some quantity of a thing they own (e.g. money) for some purpose. The exact mechanism of how a transaction is conducted isn’t typically given any consideration. For instance, we often spend US dollars to buy things that are manufactured in China or India or Japan, and the corporation that manufactures those goods often receive their local currency as payment. But, when we tell the stories about how we spent those US dollars, we don’t say “I spent X amount of yuan,” or “I paid Y rupees,” despite the fact that, along the way, those US dollars that we spent were definitely exchanged for another currency that the vendor then received.

No, we describe things as they happen from our perspective. When I spend my bitcoins, I really am, in fact, spending my bitcoins, the same way that people spend dollars. It’s all just monetary goods being exchanged, and often times there’s conversions along the way, one monetary good for another. If you want to think of Bitcoiners as belonging to a geographically distributed, discrete, foreign nation, then that’s fine. As far as my Bitcoin-money goes, I’m like a European traveling abroad in America with a big stack of euros, and when I buy stuff it just so happens that there’s an instantaneous conversion of my money into US dollars. Although, the reality is that my chosen money is much harder than any fiat currency, so I am very reluctant to ever spend it.

“… unless you’re being deceitful on purpose to make bitcoin seem more useful than it is.” -Not at all. I don’t think I’ve ever made the claim that using Bitcoin is as common and as convenient as using one’s native currency (although, I do believe that there are some instances in which using Bitcoin is, or would be, far more convenient than having to deal with the legacy financial system). Whether or not it’s equally convenient or it isn’t, that’s irrelevant. 100s of millions of people use Bitcoin for its intended purpose—money—and it’s perfectly fine to say that that money is “spent.”

FTS, you should have more important things to think about than BitCoin and Cryptos.

SJG

That's right, important things like lugnuts, fiats, serial killers, Cesar Chavez Day, raping sleeping women, etc

TheeOSU, some of our lives do involve things besides just being a Night Saint, or I should say, and Oral Only Night Saint since your asshole is sewn shut.

SJG

So let me get this straight. I can buy things with bitcoin. Really???? I can buy things with it, which is quite unique if you ignore cash, check, credit card, debit card and barter....... Can you say Ponzi???

Yeah the creep has me on that, I mean his life is obviously so full and involved. Besides making out with hat dancing boys, playing grabass at the bathhouse, he has the highlight of his life, spending 6 or more hours a day 6 days a week sitting in front of and posting on a library computer. Such an involved life! LMAO

“ So let me get this straight. I can buy things with bitcoin. Really???? I can buy things with it, which is quite unique if you ignore cash, check, credit card, debit card and barter....... Can you say Ponzi???”

• This is getting to be quite boring and repetitive, pretty sure you’re just trolling at this point. Straw man argument. Derision. What else is new?

Sorry your fascination with Internet fantasies cannot overcome the light of truth. I don't care what you do little boy, but I can still call it silly and meaningless. It's life experience and you can't buy it.

FTS, you probably have some actual abilities which you could develop and put to good use.

SJG

"Sorry your fascination with Internet fantasies cannot overcome the light of truth. I don't care what you do little boy, but I can still call it silly and meaningless. It's life experience and you can't buy it." ^^Derogatory word salad.

^ Still waiting on that proof of your degree...

Yea, yea. Be patient. I’ve been busy using that degree to earn a living.

I don't get why you care what anyone else thinks of your investments SMH

FTS cares because he knows he needs more people buying into it for him to make money. If no new suckers are recruited it'll be tough for him to cash in.

^ I get that but he's not making any sales here, he's just hurting his cause, I had dabbled in Bitcoin about 2-3 years ago, made a few bucks from it, but I've made much more money with much less risk in other sectors, so I sold my stake for about a 17% profit, my thinking at the time was, it's just something to take a flyer in, stupid to bet the house, my assessment hasn't changed, so I won't be a buyer now, but who knows that could change.

"Yea, yea. Be patient. I’ve been busy using that degree to earn a living." I've been hearing that about a sex cult in the South Bay for 8 years.

"I don't get why you care what anyone else thinks of your investments SMH" -Haven't I explained this already? I don't care about your opinions of Bitcoin, I care about spreading misinformation. If there were people on here who honestly believed that the Earth was flat, and was making the arguments for that position on TUSCL, I would be doing the exact same thing that I'm doing here, which is combating misinformation with truth. If you want to privately believe that Bitcoin is a creation of Beelzebub and spreads the herpes virus to all Bitcoin hodlers, then go ahead, more power to you and more Bitcoin for me! Where I draw the line is when you spread lies and deception.

"And ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free" (<--- There's your religious reference, CTLennay)

"FTS cares because he knows he needs more people buying into it for him to make money. If no new suckers are recruited it'll be tough for him to cash in." -I've been waiting for somebody to make this claim. I'm curious, how much richer do you think I will become as a result of a random person on the internet buying $100 worth of Bitcoin? Are you aware of the daily volume that occurs on the Bitcoin exchanges? Do you have any idea how many $billions are traded on a weekly basis? Even if Tetradon or twentyfive were to pour their entire life savings into Bitcoin, it would hardly budge the 5-minute candle on the BTCUSD chart. So, am I really benefiting from spending all this time writing these things on TUSCL? How much do I have to gain by writing all of this? I don't gain any Bitcoins by writing all of this, and the USD-value of my BTC would hardly change as a result of y'all buying any, so that can't possibly be my true motivation.

"I get that but he's not making any sales here, he's just hurting his cause" -What is my cause, exactly? Do you think that writing true statements, and identifying false statements, hinders your ability to recognize and believe true statements? If I repeatedly wrote "The Earth is round," would you start to believe that the Earth is actually flat? When I repeatedly write that Bitcoin isn't a Ponzi scheme, do you actually start to believe that Bitcoin IS a Ponzi scheme?

If that is what's going on in this thread, then who is really getting hurt by what I'm writing? If all that I write about Bitcoin is true, and you choose to believe the opposite of what I write, then the result is that you end up believing that which is false. Who does that hurt, me or you? Personally, I want to have as few false beliefs, and as many true beliefs, as possible.

"So, am I really benefiting from spending all this time writing these things on TUSCL?"

This is the million dollar question. You seem to want validation of your intelligence, when you're only proving yourself to be an autistic Poindexter.

Again, Tetradon, there is no such thing as Autism.

But I would agree in general that the appeal of financial speculation is that people want external validation of their intelligence.

SJG

^ You and FTS can headline the TUSCL Autism Olympics, but your refractory schizophrenia might give you an unfair advantage.

Tetradon, you can lead the Autism Conference. It makes no difference to you that there is no such thing.

SJG

^ You'll be my keynote!

Those two women are smart, gives me faith in the future of this country. I would've given the same answer and I have a graduate degree in finance related field.

If I ever saw them in the strip club I'm definitely getting an hour VIP.

“I would've given the same answer and I have a graduate degree in finance related field.” -This is the saddest comment on this entire website, and it’s comments like these that reduce my faith in humanity.

I don’t give a shit what it is—a share of a company, a bond, a tulip, a dandelion, a bitcoin, a standard weight of a precious metal, a car, a diamond, or an IOU to any one of those things—if there is a highly liquid market for that thing, and that thing is consistently trading at $40,000 for months on end, day after day after day…

… preferring a price of linen with $100 inked on it, rather than that thing that’s worth $40,000, is basically the same as turning down a $39,900 gift.

In my estimation, BitcoinHodler/CTLennay is either an idiot, a liar, or a fraud… or all three.

SMH

Would you rather have $40,000 of child porn or $100.

The qualification--that there is no significant liability as a consequence of ownership--was implied.

Asshole.

^ Still waiting for the proof of that enviable degree

FTS you seem like someone who could learn something if you just applied yourself, and forgot about all this crypto currency and financial speculation stuff.

SJG

I feel kinda bad about putting this out there, like maybe its really irresponsible. But here goes anyway.

Do you feel that in the last 10 years a lot more people are barebacking and doing it in more situations?

SJG

Jimmy Smith - Midnight Special youtube.com

Four Hammond B3's playing The Cat youtube.com

Bitcoinhodler said "...I have a graduate degree in finance related field."

Lol that made me laugh. Soo wtf does that mean. You either have an MBA in Finance or you don't. Sorry but accounting, marketing or whatever doesn't really apply as "related."

...not that having an MBA has much relevancy or application to your contrarian vitriolic rants.

At the end of the day FTS is on the winning side of the argument if you follow the money long. Maybe just consider you could be wrong and have a shred of humility.

My masters is in actuarial science, its pretty much insurance calculations. I say finance related because a lot of people don't know what actuarial sciences is. I have worked in insurance/audit/compliance in the past. Audit and compliance of course being heavily insurance focused.

I look at bitcoin from an audit/compliance/fraud stand point. It being uncensorable isn't as appealing as crypto cultists think. The currency being deflationary isn't good either. The best way for people to learn this is to use it and slowly realize it is fools godl.

As for the price my opinion on bitcoin is purely from the technology. The price is irrelevant to me because the technology is just so bad.

Crypto is a fraud, a fraud based on nothing except tax evasion.

SJG

real good! The Thrill is Gone + Summertime (BB king + George Gershwin cover) youtube.com

George Gershwin youtube.com

"I look at bitcoin from an audit/compliance/fraud stand point." -So, your opinion is based on a very narrow point of view, and not formed from first principles. Got it.

"It being uncensorable isn't as appealing as crypto cultists think." -Yes, it is.

"The currency being deflationary isn't good either." -Bitcoin isn't a national currency, like the Yen, Yuan, and US dollar. Having a deflationary money is good, hence the natural demand for hard money like Bitcoin. If it wasn't good, nobody would buy it.

"The best way for people to learn this is to use it and slowly realize it is fools godl." -The reality is the complete opposite. I have used it and it just makes me want more of it.

"... my opinion on bitcoin is purely from the technology. The price is irrelevant to me because the technology is just so bad." -This, coming from somebody who doesn't understand the tech--or, at least, hasn't demonstrated such an understanding.

Its pretty funny because I can say the same thing about you not understanding the tech. I will elaborate on why I don't think you understand and it is up to you if you'd like to elaborate on why you believe I don't understand it.

You think bitcoin is good for the environment. It is not. Due to proof of work many different miners have to verify a transaction. This means that in order for a transaction to occur, "a small but not insignificant" amount of energy needs to be be used by computers to verify the transaction. This is different from a Credit card transaction because there is only two servers verifying the transaction(the vendor and your card holder). This also makes it so bitcoin's transactions are secure and irreversible. If you ever send bitcoin to the wrong address you are shit out of luck. Anyone who has worked in finance knows errors happen. This alone makes bitcoin useless in any serious applications-but I'll continue. As a side note- since the verification of the transaction is decentralized (the miners) no central authority (the US govt) can block transactions that they deem to be unacceptable (child porn, animal torture videos, donations to terrorists....etc.)

This entire topic that FTS created was about how there is a new lightning network which completely by passes these miners verifications. BUT this completely defeats the original purpose of bitcoin. A centralized authority would run the network and transactions would be done off ledger! This is pretty much just regular finance world with extra steps.

Every generation some get rich quick scheme comes around and they all end like it did for a guy named Joe. Joe was an early 80's real estate investor, a long ago get rich quick scheme where people bought a house in the morning and sold it in the afternoon for a profit. Joe Had a house in Lincoln, R.I. drove a Rolls and had great cocaine parties with strippers. I last saw him in 1988 driving a corolla and bringing a handle of Cossack Vodka to a party, which he drank himself. Bet he is into crypto.....

^ I thought you were gonna tell us the story of Joe the Plumber, he wasn't really a plumber, just an assistant to a plumber, but he was gonna be for sure, that was in 2015, well its now 2022 and Joe still ain't a plumber, but he's gonna be! LULZ

Fight with someone else.

lighten up, that was funny, laugh a little bit your face won't fracture.

@BitcoinHodler, I’ll respond to you in full, shortly. I just wanted to quickly come on here and share some more good news—Bitcoin was adopted by another sovereign nation this week:

bitcoinmagazine.com

france24.com

news.yahoo.com

bbc.com

From the BBC article-

"The context, given the systemic corruption and a Russian partner facing international sanctions, does encourage suspicion," French analyst Thierry Vircoulon told the AFP news agency."

Congrats on celebrating undermining the western countries sanctions.

"Its pretty funny because I can say the same thing about you not understanding the tech." -You can write whatever you want, doesn't make it true. The truth is I've spent hundreds of hours studying this stuff from every angle, and I'm a highly technicaly person with a background in computer science, mathematics, and physics. Let's just see how good your understanding is, shall we?

"I will elaborate on why I don't think you understand and it is up to you if you'd like to elaborate on why you believe I don't understand it." -Sure thing, see the following comments.

"You think bitcoin is good for the environment. It is not." -No, technically and strictly speaking, it is not my opinion that “Bitcoin is good for the environment.” You should try communicating more accurately. It is my opinion, and the opinion of many people who have actually done the research, that the utilization of Bitcoin, by humans, has a net indirect effect of reducing waste, increasing efficiency, and increasing the ROI of renewable energy generating facilities. Bitcoin, itself, is neither good nor bad, just like the alphabet is neither good nor bad; it simply is.

"Due to proof of work many different miners have to verify a transaction." -Technically, this is wrong. There is nothing about the proof of work algorithm that requires "many different miners" to verify a transaction. What would have been right, and what you may have meant to write, is “Bitcoin mining is a highly competitive market, and there are many different miners around the world that all compete to create the next valid block of transactions in the Bitcoin ledger.” But, just because many miners work to be the one to verify the next block does not mean that the proof-of-work algorithm requires cooperation of many different miners. Anybody can figure this out if they think for just a minute—who mined the first Bitcoin block? Bitcoin started as a project on a solitary computer.

"This means that in order for a transaction to occur, 'a small but not insignificant' amount of energy needs to be be used by computers to verify the transaction. This is different from a Credit card transaction because there is only two servers verifying the transaction(the vendor and your card holder)." -As I explained earlier in this thread, this is not correct because it conflates final settlement with non-final transactions. Comparing credit card transactions to the final settlement that occurs when transactions are recorded in the blockchain is totally inappropriate and inaccurate. The fact is that an arbitrary number of transactions can occur over Lightning, and all those transactions can have final settlement in a single settlement transaction within one block of the blockchain. Consequently, there is no “cost-per-transaction” metric that could reasonably be computed.

Also, claiming that the energy use of Bitcoin is somehow unique, and that the traditional financial system doesn’t use energy, is laughable. The legacy financial system employs millions of people, who all have to be paid salaries. The legacy financial system requires a tremendous amount of real estate, and computer equipment of its own, all of which needs to be maintained and powered. And, on top of that, the legacy financial system requires the US army to maintain the petrodollar system.

“This also makes it so bitcoin's transactions are secure and irreversible. If you ever send bitcoin to the wrong address you are shit out of luck.” -Bitcoin addresses have built-in checksums that makes it astronomically unlikely that a typo would correspond with a valid Bitcoin address. Also, nobody types out the Bitcoin addresses; we copy-paste, or use QR codes. When is the last time you saw a computer make a mistake during a copy-paste of a string of characters? This issue of sending to the wrong address is really a non-issue.

“Anyone who has worked in finance knows errors happen. This alone makes bitcoin useless in any serious applications-but I'll continue.” -I guess you don’t really know what you’re talking about, huh?

“As a side note- since the verification of the transaction is decentralized (the miners) no central authority (the US govt) can block transactions that they deem to be unacceptable (child porn, animal torture videos, donations to terrorists....etc.)” -That’s correct, just like how they can’t stop in-person cash transactions, they can’t stop money-launding performed by the big banks, and they can’t stop the child porn and animal torture from happening in the first place. If you want a 1984-esque financial system, then go fuck yourself.

“This entire topic that FTS created was about how there is a new lightning network which completely by passes these miners verifications. BUT this completely defeats the original purpose of bitcoin.” -Not really, no. Just like how credit cards don’t “bypass” final settlement by the international banks, lightning network transactions don’t “bypass miner verification.” ‘Bypass’ is a poor word choice. Yes, there is no mining involved in the process of conducting a lightning transaction, but to say that the Lightning network completely defeats the purpose of Bitcoin is nonsense. Lightning is a protocol that extends Bitcoin itself; like a branch that extends from the trunk of a tree. Do the branches “bypass” or “defeat the purpose” of the tree’s trunk?

“A centralized authority would run the network and transactions would be done off ledger! This is pretty much just regular finance world with extra steps.” -More demonstration that you don’t understand the tech. What is this authority that you’re referring to? Haven’t you heard that Bitcoin and Lightning are permissionless protocols? Anybody can mine Bitcoin, and anybody can spin up a Lightning node, provided they have the computer equipment (which, in the case of a Lightning node, is extremely cheap). No, it’s fundamentally different than “regular finance world.” Anybody can program a Lightning wallet, and anybody can be their own bank, with Bitcoin.

Once again, BitcoinHodler/CTLennay has failed to demonstrate an adequate understanding of the Bitcoin tech. In fact, he’s demonstrated the opposite—a misunderstanding. No mention of cryptography, no mention of nodes vs miners, no mention of consensus, no mention of how the miners verify transactions, etc. etc.

Also, FYI, Bitcoin is now being mined by Fort Worth, Texas, city hall.

cnbc.com

“It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.” -Mark Twain

The very article you posted says bitcoin is very energy intensive. Energy intensive means bad for the environment. This contradicts you saying bitcoin isn't bad.

How is Bitcoin Not the Same Thing as the Dutch Tulip Mania? youtube.com

SJG

The Pretty Reckless - Take Me Down (Official Music Video) youtube.com

The School of Rock plays Gimme Shelter with Special guest star Orianthi youtube.com

"The very article you posted says bitcoin is very energy intensive. Energy intensive means bad for the environment. This contradicts you saying bitcoin isn't bad."

-Okay. I'm going to exercise some patience. Here we go...

"The very article you posted says bitcoin is very energy intensive."

-Are journalists like the Pope? Are they infallible? Before you start objecting in your mind, note that I'm not arguing, here, that Bitcoin isn't energy intensive; whether it is or it isn't depends on how that term is defined. But let's not be hasty. Please tell me how many journalists you know that have an expert understanding of physics, power grid engineering, economics, game theory, and computer science. How many do you know? I'm guessing zero. The point is that this subject is not so simple and commonplace that one could use an elementary school level of understanding and critical thinking, in the manner that you have (sorry, but it's true), to justifiably come to such a unnuanced conclusion as "Bitcoin is bad for the environment." My point is that you're being kind of an idiot, and you should stop being an idiot because you're better than that. Imagine writing a research paper that only had three sentences--"A journalist wrote that Bitcoin is energy intensive. Energy intensive means bad for the environment. Therefore Bitcoin is bad for the environment."

Sometimes journalists write stupid things. More importantly, journalists usually don't have an expert level of understanding of some of the things they write about. Take a look: demilked.com

In particular, take a look at this article from 2017: newsweek.com How'd that prediction turn out?

Does Bitcoin mining require energy? Yes, that much is obvious. Does mining use "a lot" or "too much" energy? That depends on one's perspective, as those are relative terms.

"Energy intensive means bad for the environment."

-Okay, this is where you've demonstrated some obvious laziness. No; "energy intensive" means energy intensive, and "bad for the environment" means bad for the environment. How exactly does one delineate things that are "bad" for the environment from those that are "good" for the environment, anyway? If you stop to think about it, the argument could very easily be made that the worst thing for the environment is humanity itself! After all, if H. s. sapiens never evolved 100,000 years ago, then there wouldn't be any oil rigs polluting the oceans, metropolises that replace vast regions of natural forest and animal habitats, garbage landfills, coal mining, gold mining, global warming, and nuclear bombs! etc. etc.

So, if the line of reasoning is "energy intensive means bad for the environment, so we should get rid of it," then you should probably just kill yourself (rhetorical statement; I'm not suggesting that you actually kill yourself), because you yourself are causing far more ecological damage than anything else that occurs in the wild. When is the last time you saw a beaver produce e-waste?

But, for the sake of argument, let's set aside the idea of "good" vs "bad". Let's just look at the term "energy intensive." In order to get a feel for what that term means, we could ask the question, "what other industries are 'energy intensive?'" A quick google search could very probably lead you to this pdf from the US Energy Information Administration: eia.gov. The very first industry that the EIA characterizes as "energy-intensive" in this report is the food industry. Other energy-intensive industries include pulp and paper, chemicals, refining, etc. So, despite the fact that we set aside the idea of "good" vs "bad," it seems the most important civilization-sustaining industries are energy-intensive and therefore, according to your logic, "bad for the environment," and now we're right back to where we started--that humanity itself is "bad for the environment."

One final point that I'll make: how are energy intensive processes that occur in space, outside of Earth's atmosphere, bad for the Earth's environment? What if the inevitable destination of ultra-efficient Bitcoin mining is to use solar power to mine Bitcoin in space? I'm not suggesting that this is going to happen, I'm just pointing out the laziness of your thinking--it is not logically valid to conclude that energy intensive processes are bad for the environment.

I suggest you read a little about logic: iep.utm.edu

"This contradicts you saying bitcoin isn't bad."

-More elementary school-level critical thinking. Here I will quote what I wrote earlier: "Bitcoin, itself, is neither good nor bad, just like the alphabet is neither good nor bad; it simply is." Bitcoin is just information--a protocol. If anything, you should have written "Bitcoin mining is energy intensive, which is bad for the environment, therefore Bitcoin mining is bad."

If you want to think like this, then go ahead, but just because you think it doesn't mean that thought is logical or correct. You might as well try to argue, also, that "fish have gills, gills look like the vents in my air-conditioner, therefore my grandmother's name is Mary." While you're at it, try preaching to the rest of TUSCL that the food industry, metal mining and refining industries, and chemical industries, are all bad, and we should go back to a hunter-gatherer way of life in which our language is merely grunts and hand gestures, and we chase down bison with hand-made spears in order to feed ourselves.

@FTS

"-The implication is that I’m lying? Why don’t you request some proof of my degree, and see what happens?"

I'm still waaaaaaaaaiting!

I've never seen someone type so much yet say so little. Bitcoin is terrible for the environment, look up the horror stories of towns letting bitcoin miners into their towns

It brings me much satisfaction to know that I'm living, rent free, in all your heads.

^ There's always room for another punching bag autistic dork in my head.

Still waiting on proof of that degree.

"YOU HAVE 3 KEY SUPPORT LEVELS:

1. If it falls below 32,000
2. then it will fall to 17,000 if it goes below 17,000.... watch out for 5000 per coin and return to pre-pandemic levels"

-What technical analysis school did you go to? Volume profiler shows support levels at 29300, 27000, 23800, THEN 17000, then a massive support at 12000, then 10000. Perhaps you should show your work.

No one knows what these ponzi schemes will do tomorrow but we can say right now that they are not worth worrying about.

SJG

The Rolling Stones - Gimme Shelter - 2013 School of Rock AllStars Team 4 youtube.com

"I've never seen someone type so much yet say so little. Bitcoin is terrible for the environment, look up the horror stories of towns letting bitcoin miners into their towns"

-You must not read very much. I guess that's why you believe mainstream media headlines... cuz that's all you ever read! LOL

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^ Autistic dork

Yea, apparently ASCII art doesn't work on this forum. Oh well.

Also, it takes a lot of balls to insult people... on the internet. lol.

Try to be a little more sophisticated, okay? Just takes a little practice.

^ Still waiting on proof of that degree you promised...

The storm has arrived, and I'm going down with this ship. It's been nice arguing with y'all. youtu.be

^ Still waiting on proof of that degree you promised...

Shit like what FTS just posted is why so many people think crypto is a cult. I cannot imagine anyone taking financial advice from this guy.

“ Microstrategy (noted way up in this thread) stock is down now almost 75% and their margin will be called at the $22,500 level…”

-Check your math, or your sources: twitter.com

“ Shit like what FTS just posted is why so many people think crypto is a cult.”

-What cult do you know of (besides, in your view, Bitcoin) that has over 100 million members?

Using hard, sound money is not a cult, dumbass. Of course, that doesn’t stop some people from acting cult-ish. Of course, the same could be said of other normal activities that some people take to extreme levels. Hell, the US dollar has a pyramid with the Eye of Providence at the top.

Ponzi scheme.

@OP, still waiting on proof of that fictitious degree you promised...

People who worship Trump are a cult. It is super weird and very unsettling.

I'm also sick of your what abouts and deflections. Bitcoin is a decentralized ponzi scheme. Bitcoin is bad for the environment. Bitcoin is bad for America.

Bitcoin is bad.

Did someone move my BTC to my prison wallet? My ass is killing me

Scrubbie I only mentioned Trump because FTS wanted an example of a cult besides bitcoin with millions of followers.

What's the over/under on how much FTS lost in the terra luna crash? I'm placing it at $800. I know it seems low, that's only because we all know crypto cultists lie about their gains.

FTS is an autistic dork

Still waiting for proof of his advanced degree he mentioned above

A special message to Tetradon this Sunday: mega.nz

Oh, I get it. Lol you respond to me calling you an autistic dork by doing the most autistically dorky thing I could imagine

QThis is the key you sent me to your little video: gp8gfHgWfUJR1aUM_9njfxvTKzxFf73RfdXSLAM9nPQ

If you're a physicist, I was expecting a doctorate from a real Ivy, not a master's from the one Trump went to.

I'm disappointed, the way you talked it

Good job. I thought for a minute that using an encryption key might be slightly too advanced for you. Glad you figured it out.

I bet you're going to try and use that video to get laid

@desertscrub you racist? What’s your problem with dark money? You only like light money? Geez, and they call Bitcoiners white supremacists. Get a load of this guy.

P.S. not selling… but I might buy some pizza over Lightning network.

I don't want to crawl inside scrubbies mind but by dark money I think he means money from an unknown source.

Also yes bitcoin is very appealing to white supremacists.

Happy Memorial Day, y'all. Here's some resources to help you learn something (I'm looking at you, BitCoinHodler, ya ignorant fuck).

assets.website-files.com global-uploads.webflow.com batcoinz.com

tl;dr--

"Bitcoin mining can eliminate 0.94 + 4.38 = 5.32% of all global emissions. This represents 23% of all global methane emissions: more than half the UNEP’s methane reduction target. Incredibly, discussing the IPCC’s target to limit global warming to under 1.5°C, UNEP recently stated 'The 1.5°C target cannot be achieved without reducing methane emissions by 40-45% by 2030. Reduction of this magnitude would avoid nearly 0.3°C of warming by 2045 and complement long-term climate change mitigation efforts.' That means Bitcoin mining has the potential to achieve half our methane reduction target. That also means that Bitcoin mining has the realistic potential to help humanity avoid nearly 0.15% of warming by 2045. To our knowledge, this can be legitimately claimed by no other technology."

"When thinking about bitcoin and the environment we must weigh bitcoin’s own value, its negative environmental effects, and its positive environmental effects. Bitcoin is a $600 billion digital asset, an embodiment and extension of deeply-held American values, and a means of advancing American interests. Proof of work, we have argued, is essential to bitcoin’s value along all three of these dimensions, but like any industry, has environmental impacts. These, we have argued, are often exaggerated due to basic misunderstandings of bitcoin’s protocol. Finally, we have explored the many ways in which bitcoin mining promises to help us confront the challenge of climate change. Mining reduces investment risk in renewables—particularly in advance of grid connection—and acts as a uniquely flexible controlled load resource. Mining has other environmental benefits, including innovative uses of waste heat, safe disposal of used tires, remediation of waste coal, and most of all, methane cleanup on wellsites, farms, and landfills, at scale. Especially in this nascent phase of its development, regulators must be mindful both of bitcoin’s value and of bitcoin mining’s unique and positive contributions to sustainability."

I've done quite a bit of research on bitcoin so I'm very well qualified to give an informed opinion on this.

Bitcoin is not at all environmentally friendly and all those links fake news. Do you really think "batcoinz" is a legitimate site to get news? These sites are made by bitcoiners who try to convince people to invest. The bitcoiners know they need more fools to put money in.

Don't be so open minded your brain falls out.

@BitCoinHodler, your argumentum ad hominem is no match for the truth. Cry harder. pbs.twimg.com

I'm not sure where I made an ad hominem attack in my comment but you did call me an ignorant fuck in your previous comment. I've done approaching hundreds of hours of research into bitcoin and crypto, my opinion on it os very well informed. I can understand why you would be frustrated due to your fervent belief in it.

If you'd like to trust "batcoinz" for your news that is your right. Anyone else wanting to trust "batcoinz" for investment advice that is their choice. Important thing is I point out the lies and how ridiculous it all is.

“ I've done approaching hundreds of hours of research into bitcoin and crypto, my opinion on it os very well informed.” -Then explain how it works, in your own words, under the hood. You still haven’t done that.

ReasonTV episode: “America Would Be Better Off If Bitcoin Became the World’s Reserve Currency” youtu.be

“People will, very soon, be able to pay for things over the Bitcoin network”. Or like 1/2 as many of those things as they could when you started this thread.

ReasonTV is a libertarian propaganda group, I wouldn't trust them. ReasonTV doesn't even try to hide it lol.

Bitcoin being a reserve currency wouldn't solve as many problems as libertarian propagandists think either, we had hyperinflation during the gold standard too.

I've already explained the tech in my own words, you've already asked me this question.

I will say that people don't really care about the tech they care about their interactions with it. The security/transaction measures for bitcoin involve too many steps for mass adoption to ever happen.

"this is an uninvestable asset class"

-An "uninvestable" asset class that reached over 1 trillion USD market cap, legal tender in two sovereign nations, significantly owned by one of the largest corporations in history (TSLA), and owned by the likes of Tim Cook, Mark Cuban, Bill Miller, Gary Gensler (chief of SEC), Paul Tudor Jones, Elon Musk, George Soros, Mark Zuckerberg, etc. etc. etc., along with 46 million Americans, and well over 100 million people around the globe. An "uninvestable" asset class that has basically replaced fiat currency in Nigeria. An "uninvestable" asset class that is backed by the Human Rights Foundation because of the economic freedom that it provides to people under authoritarian regimes. An "uninvestable" asset class that is serving to balance the electrical grid in Texas to prevent blackouts. An "uninvestable" asset class that is the hardest form of money that humanity has ever discovered.

"BuT iT's NoT aN iNvEsTaBlE aSsEt ClAsS hur de dur" lol

^ who ya gonna believe FTS or your lyin eyes LOL

Jim Cramer just said he sold all his Bitcoin. This is the same guy that said "Bear Stearns is not in trouble" right before it went bankrupt during the Great Financial Crisis. youtu.be . This is the same guy that is laughed at on Twitter as a very reliable contraindicator twitter.com.

In Cramer We Trust??

I'll put my trust in mathematics, and economics 101, thank you very much.

"who ya gonna believe, FTS or..." -The difference is, nobody has to blindly trust what I write; all the information that I provide is well-documented. If people don't believe that Bitcoin truly is capped at 21 million then they can go do their own due diligence.

FTS, so much of what you write are flat out lies or half truths.

Example- you claimed Amazon accepts bitcoin when in reality you had pay a fee to convert your bitcoin to an online gift card on a completely different website which you then used to make a purchase on Amazon. In this step Amazon never touched bitcoin.

Example- you're claiming two sovereign nations are accepting bitcoin now but excluding the absolute train wreck adoption has been. The vast majority of vendors in those countries don't even accept bitcoin! This is well documented.

Example- you're listing off rich people who are in crypto when a lot of these guys are pretty sketchy individuals. I would never want to be on the same list as Zuckerberg, Musk, and Cuban. Those three don't give a shit about regular people.

Example- you're trying to use the name human rights foundation endorsing bitcoin as proof bitcoin is legit. At face value the name "human rights foundation" seems like the foundation is for the better good, but it has deep ties to far right organizations. This is well documented.

If you want to tie bitcoin to far right organizations like ReasonTV and Human Rights Foundation you'd be 100% correct. Of course if you support far right organizations then be my guest and provide exit liquidity for them.

The more you speak the more foolish you appear.

Crypto sure looks like a great investment, especially if you listened to the OP dipshit and bought it when this thread was started.

A Ponzi scheme is a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors. A Ponzi scheme can maintain the illusion of a sustainable business as long as new investors contribute new funds, and as long as most of the investors do not demand full repayment and still believe in the non-existent assets they are purported to own.

"Example- you claimed Amazon accepts bitcoin when in reality you had pay a fee to convert your bitcoin to an online gift card on a completely different website which you then used to make a purchase on Amazon. In this step Amazon never touched bitcoin." -False, I claimed I can effectively buy things on Amazon by spending my Bitcoins, which is true.

"Example- you're claiming two sovereign nations are accepting bitcoin..." -False, I claimed two sovereign nations passed laws that make Bitcoin legal tender within those nations.

"Example- you're listing off rich people who are in crypto when a lot of these guys are pretty sketchy individuals." -Argumentum ad hominem.

"Example- you're trying to use the name human rights foundation endorsing bitcoin as proof bitcoin is legit." -False, I would never claim that their endorsement is proof of anything other than their own endorsement.

"At face value the name "human rights foundation" seems like the foundation is for the better good, but it has deep ties to far right organizations. This is well documented." -So what? Are you biased against the far right in favor of the far left?

"If you want to tie bitcoin to far right" -I don't.

"The more you speak..." -I'm not speaking, I'm writing.

"...the more foolish you appear." -LOL.

"A Ponzi scheme is a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors. A Ponzi scheme can maintain the illusion of a sustainable business as long as new investors contribute new funds, and as long as most of the investors do not demand full repayment and still believe in the non-existent assets they are purported to own." -What's your point?

What's your inane point? Oh yeah, you're a pretend billionaire.

Buy da dip dipshit!

Like a Ponzi scheme, thousands of early investors in crypto got wealthy ( assuming they sold ) but millions are going lose their investment when the “ emperor has no clothes” moment arrives. Unlike stock, Crypto only has value as long as it is perceived as having value. There is no there, there.

Enough about fractional reserve banking

Anyhow I'm down like 60% on my BTC and like 49% overall. Got completely ass blasted lol. Strippers would have been a better investment

@mark94 “… crypto…” -I never suggest people buy any ol’ cryptocurrency. There isn’t really any good investment thesis for buying crypto. My investment thesis is very similar to Bill Miller’s, which is that BITCOIN is verifiably limited in supply, which is fundamentally different from pretty much every commodity, fiat currency, cryptocurrency, and even real estate. Bitcoin's supply is much more similar to beach-front property, in that, generally, there isn’t any significant change in the length of habitable coastline, globally. But, of course, beach-front property has the inherent costs of maintenance and property taxes.

Bitcoin is a well-functioning digital money. The network hasn't skipped a beat for the past 12 years, and the miners are certainly functioning just fine today cuz the network is still cranking out blocks every 10 mins. In many cases, it’s easier to make a transaction with Bitcoin than the legacy financial system. Unlike fiat currency, which grows in supply ~10% per year, Bitcoin is of an absolute, finite supply. Unlike beach-front property, I don’t have to pay any property tax on my held BTC, and there is no maintenance cost for holding BTC.

“millions are going lose their investment when the ‘emperor has no clothes’ moment arrives.“ -Are you calling Bitcoin “the emperor?” No, the emperor with no clothes is the paper money that costs next to nothing to produce. Again, go back to Econ 101. We figured this out HUNDREDS of years ago, with Gresham and Copernicus. Look up Gresham’s Law. It’s common sense to hoard the hard money (gold/Bitcoin) and spend the easy money [(toilet) paper].

P.S. people have been declaring Bitcoin’s imminent death for the last 10 years. It didn’t die in 2014-2016, it didn’t die in 2018-2019, it didn’t die on the COVID Flash Crash of March 12, 2020. If it didn’t die that day, what makes you think it’s about to die now? 99bitcoins.com

First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win. Come at me, bro.

Is this dingus still here trying to get titty bar enthusiasts to pump up the price of his investment?

Bitcoin is much like coastal property? I agree, as bitcoin reminds me of Nauset Light Beach, the prettiest beach on the Cape, well, it was..... As with Bitcoin the value of the beach fluctuated, but it was always there; well until 1978. The blizzard of 78' done took that coastline which never changed, like bitcoin, and dragged it into the sea, so the parking lot and the beach are gone, because the coastline never changes and bitcoin will never be worth zero, just like MCI Worldcom. and oops.....

"Is this dingus still here trying to get titty bar enthusiasts to pump up the price of his investment?" -No, this dingus is still here providing quality information, and correcting people when they write things that are false (at least, on this thread).

A penny saved, is a penny earned.

"First they laugh at you, then they continue laughing. Please help I can't stop laughing. I can't breath. This is too much I can't stop laughing at how indoctrinated these butters are. My sides. My fucking sides I can't stop."

I don't really care about the price, my opinion of bitcoin is from the tech which is dog shit.the entire space has so many scams, yes even bitcoin. You keep screaming econ 101 but you've only ever mentioned supply and not even demand. You've only mentioned half of the most common economics principle.

I've already explained bitcoin to you, can you explain the USD system? Not fiat, I don't really know how other systems work but I'm very educated in the American monetary policy.