Think history will repeat itself?
Thursday, July 8, 2021 6:57 PM
Okay, so I was going to post a reply to yet another anti-onlyfans thread, but I noticed my post getting a little too long winded and off topic so I figured I should create a new discussion.
I previously rolled my eyes at the all the numerous harsh posts about the subject and the insults towards content buyers. I am starting to wonder now if there is something to the worry that goes behind the anger at online content. I previously rolled my eyes at the complaining but now I’m not so sure.
Will content buying replace “in the flesh” entertainment?
—
I recently bought a book about the practice of “charity dating/treating” that was prolific back around 1900-1940 in the US but haven’t read it yet. Most of things I’ve gotten so far has been from Wikipedia articles. For reference, treating was essentially the same thing as sugaring and being taken on dates to entertainment like movie theaters or bowling or whatnot. Legit prostitutes would complain about it when they shared the same space as them.
Charity dating also fell out of favor around the same time as the taxi-dance halls at the time. (Which as far as I can tell, served a lot of purposes as the modern day strip club, even if some things were different)
There are certain things that seemed to happen in common.
*Strip clubs/sugaring & taxi dance/charity treating rose up alongside growing inequality issues. The peak of inequality back then was just before 1929 hit.
*The height of both that stuff was during a faster paced and more cynical time period (1920s and 1990s)
*Something happens to keep both industries still very alive, but turns more into a race-to-the-bottom and less easy money (crash 1929, recession 2008).
I’m not super confident to say anything too sure *yet* on these patterns, but it’s an interesting subject and trying to learn more.
I’ve seen the talk and even a media headline before about the possibility of millennials killing strip clubs. I wouldn’t be surprised, which sucks because I like the below 40 customers I’ve met before. Things that we do know now:
*Modern day millennials hold a much lower share of wealth than boomers and even gen x at a similar age. (Not as much discretionary income for lots of strip club nickel-and-dime bs)
*Night clubs and heavy drinking has declined since 2008.
*Millennials are also not quite so fixated about sexual intercourse than previous time periods, and there have been plenty of headlines about the decline of sex.
I’ll say one more thing that is more personal observation than actual data, but unlike current middle aged people who “fight” more if they feel dissatisfied with something (Karen meme anybody?), millennials are more likely to accept something as is and more likely to bail if they don’t like something. They are less likely to chew somebody out demanding respect, and more likely to rather migrate to where they feel more respected. I say that as both a dancer and somebody who has worked in other forms of customer service. There is a huge difference in how somebody will likely act based on age. If dancer does something silly like flaking or asking for emergency $, I think a lot of older customers will deal with it as long as they can steer her to cheap extras or whatever to their advantage. A millennial I think is more likely to get annoyed and bail completely. Yes those are generalizations and I acknowledge it’s not 100% of everyone. And subscribing/unsubscribing to online content makes things WAY easier to sever ties when “done” —one possible additional reason younger customers may prefer the digital over personal.
Historically, the last time a whole age group was a relative bunch of squares at a younger age was the GI generation, especially compared to those older than them. (Lost and missionary generations) They also were a group that had inherited a world with widespread access to in-the-flesh sexual entertainment but as a cohort decided they preferred pinup models and later Playboy magazine. Improved economic conditions could have made a lot women less motivated to carry on in those industries as well.
So I have pointed out similarities between then and now. Here are differences that may keep the industries going unlike back then.
*Sugaring might decline, but may not quite disappear as dramatically as it did in the 50s or 60s, when people stopped being aware what “treating” even was. Bandwidth is cheap, and the internet can keep that niche going for those who want that.
*unlike the post WW2 high that turned America into an established superpower, that type of future won’t necessarily come.
(Personal opinion speaking, which I’m sure many will disagree with, I do suspect society is on its way to still working out its kinks, and the 2030s will be a much more peaceful time to live in than now. But will 2030s America reach quite the same optimism levels as the 1950s…? But I’m sure opinions differ and some expect instead for america to continue being a shitshow. Which I used to believe but don’t anymore)
*Strip clubs entrenched itself too deeply into popular culture to go away as easily as taxi dance halls, rock music dedicated some songs and rap music took it to a whole new level
*strip clubs are more adaptable than taxi dancing. In taxi halls, women had to work on a schedule. Halls had to maintain a jazz band. Patrons had to buy tickets as soon as they walked in the door and chose women based on a lineup instead of being approached before the sale. In other words, the way strip coins are set up there is more room to be flexible and adapt with the times
*Dating charity girls seemed to rise more prolifically with prostitution becoming outlawed in 1905. Current movements to decriminalize and possibly legalize that stuff again could have an affect in how both sex workers and customers approach things.
——
Hope this post isn’t too long. Wanted to hear what you guys would predict.
I previously rolled my eyes at the all the numerous harsh posts about the subject and the insults towards content buyers. I am starting to wonder now if there is something to the worry that goes behind the anger at online content. I previously rolled my eyes at the complaining but now I’m not so sure.
Will content buying replace “in the flesh” entertainment?
—
I recently bought a book about the practice of “charity dating/treating” that was prolific back around 1900-1940 in the US but haven’t read it yet. Most of things I’ve gotten so far has been from Wikipedia articles. For reference, treating was essentially the same thing as sugaring and being taken on dates to entertainment like movie theaters or bowling or whatnot. Legit prostitutes would complain about it when they shared the same space as them.
Charity dating also fell out of favor around the same time as the taxi-dance halls at the time. (Which as far as I can tell, served a lot of purposes as the modern day strip club, even if some things were different)
There are certain things that seemed to happen in common.
*Strip clubs/sugaring & taxi dance/charity treating rose up alongside growing inequality issues. The peak of inequality back then was just before 1929 hit.
*The height of both that stuff was during a faster paced and more cynical time period (1920s and 1990s)
*Something happens to keep both industries still very alive, but turns more into a race-to-the-bottom and less easy money (crash 1929, recession 2008).
I’m not super confident to say anything too sure *yet* on these patterns, but it’s an interesting subject and trying to learn more.
I’ve seen the talk and even a media headline before about the possibility of millennials killing strip clubs. I wouldn’t be surprised, which sucks because I like the below 40 customers I’ve met before. Things that we do know now:
*Modern day millennials hold a much lower share of wealth than boomers and even gen x at a similar age. (Not as much discretionary income for lots of strip club nickel-and-dime bs)
*Night clubs and heavy drinking has declined since 2008.
*Millennials are also not quite so fixated about sexual intercourse than previous time periods, and there have been plenty of headlines about the decline of sex.
I’ll say one more thing that is more personal observation than actual data, but unlike current middle aged people who “fight” more if they feel dissatisfied with something (Karen meme anybody?), millennials are more likely to accept something as is and more likely to bail if they don’t like something. They are less likely to chew somebody out demanding respect, and more likely to rather migrate to where they feel more respected. I say that as both a dancer and somebody who has worked in other forms of customer service. There is a huge difference in how somebody will likely act based on age. If dancer does something silly like flaking or asking for emergency $, I think a lot of older customers will deal with it as long as they can steer her to cheap extras or whatever to their advantage. A millennial I think is more likely to get annoyed and bail completely. Yes those are generalizations and I acknowledge it’s not 100% of everyone. And subscribing/unsubscribing to online content makes things WAY easier to sever ties when “done” —one possible additional reason younger customers may prefer the digital over personal.
Historically, the last time a whole age group was a relative bunch of squares at a younger age was the GI generation, especially compared to those older than them. (Lost and missionary generations) They also were a group that had inherited a world with widespread access to in-the-flesh sexual entertainment but as a cohort decided they preferred pinup models and later Playboy magazine. Improved economic conditions could have made a lot women less motivated to carry on in those industries as well.
So I have pointed out similarities between then and now. Here are differences that may keep the industries going unlike back then.
*Sugaring might decline, but may not quite disappear as dramatically as it did in the 50s or 60s, when people stopped being aware what “treating” even was. Bandwidth is cheap, and the internet can keep that niche going for those who want that.
*unlike the post WW2 high that turned America into an established superpower, that type of future won’t necessarily come.
(Personal opinion speaking, which I’m sure many will disagree with, I do suspect society is on its way to still working out its kinks, and the 2030s will be a much more peaceful time to live in than now. But will 2030s America reach quite the same optimism levels as the 1950s…? But I’m sure opinions differ and some expect instead for america to continue being a shitshow. Which I used to believe but don’t anymore)
*Strip clubs entrenched itself too deeply into popular culture to go away as easily as taxi dance halls, rock music dedicated some songs and rap music took it to a whole new level
*strip clubs are more adaptable than taxi dancing. In taxi halls, women had to work on a schedule. Halls had to maintain a jazz band. Patrons had to buy tickets as soon as they walked in the door and chose women based on a lineup instead of being approached before the sale. In other words, the way strip coins are set up there is more room to be flexible and adapt with the times
*Dating charity girls seemed to rise more prolifically with prostitution becoming outlawed in 1905. Current movements to decriminalize and possibly legalize that stuff again could have an affect in how both sex workers and customers approach things.
——
Hope this post isn’t too long. Wanted to hear what you guys would predict.
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44 comments
People like sex. They’ll do crazy things to get it. That never changes.
One more thing too, Studies have shown about falling levels of testosterones in males too. And the younger somebody is the more dramatic of a change. Unless people start signing up for replacement therapy injections en masse that probably won’t change as time goes on with millennials filling the next role of OTC demanders. Not saying it’s everybody (muddy is an example duly noted).
Not saying it will go away completely, but enough of a change to be noticeable.
HOWEVER... Older guys, whether single, married, divorced, depressed, bored with "family life", etc., will ALWAYS want to spend time with younger, hot women. While stuff like onlyfans or camgirl sites will obviously take a portion of those dollars, I think eventually they're going to want that in-person interaction... even for millennials or the younger ones who've essentially spent their entire lives since puberty making friends online, dating online, etc. But the proportion of them who actually do venture out away from the screen will probably be lower than their predecessors.
Last year I told a friend who was struggling...set up a Tinder account and let it lead to an Instagram. Use suggestive pics but nothing crazy, leave something to the imagination, and let that lead to an onlyfans. She needed money pretty badly with Covid strip club issues (even in AZ!), so she took the advice, within a couple months had a bunch of subscribers and was apparently doing full-blown porn on there (THAT was unexpected).
There will still be strip clubs, and there will be strippers who do really well for themselves. But there will be fewer of each.
As far as looking the other way or decriminalization of prostitution... I can't imagine that going further than a few select cities here and there...still way too much of a stigma, and voters are idiots, far too easily influenced.
I will play along and answer your question:
Q: Think history will repeat itself?
A: YES
Sexual interactions in various forms is nothing new in western culture. I would refer you to Demosthenes (384 – 12 October 322 BC)
Greek statesman and orator of ancient Athens.
1. We have courtesans for the sake of pleasure.
2. Concubines for the daily health of our bodies, and
3. Wives to bear us lawful offspring and be the faithful guardians of our homes
In this list is the Greek view of woman in the classic age.
And in all ages and times.
All men want that, but only some can afford it...
In today’s world the rich can say:
1. We have high end escorts/PSE/GFE for the sake of pleasure.
2. Mistresses/Sugar Babies/Strippers ITC OTC; etc, for the daily needs of our bodies.
3. Wives to bear us lawful offspring.
4. Realistic Sex Dolls/Gynoids/Fembot, Internet Porn and Instagram/Onlyfans “Models”, for kicks-and-giggles”
:D
At $20 a pop. 120 subscribers is $2,000 in her pocket for posting a few underwear pics a month on onlyfans.
A girl can post her cashapp and men will send her money for nothing.
And in her eyes money for nothing is scamming. Pop culture glorifies it now
I’m under 40 and I’ve always had to work under super-PC corporate culture, so it sounds absolutely crazy to me, but reading what older guys have posted I guess it was pretty common not too long ago.
There were some high profile stories that were in the mainstream news about some guys doing this for huge amounts of money. I could believe that the bad press made more companies clamp down on this type of spending.
It isn't the same thing but combine that with the #MeToo movement and it just looks extra bad on a company with a big name (and big budgets) that would have allowed this in the past.
Guys above explained what you mentioned but I will take it a step further from experience.
My dad and I have/had the same type of job where entertaining clients is a part of our jobs. Back then it was a huge part of the job.
1. The work force was dominated by straight men and they wanted entertained - so you took them to strip clubs. It was acceptable. Today there’s as many if not more women in these positions as men, and strip clubs are unacceptable.
2. My dads expense account was insane, these days companies clamp down on spending like that going over expense reports with a fine tooth comb. Gone are the days of $200 in xerox copies per month. Technology has made every cent spent easy to track, and turned workers into 24/7 around the clock employees thanks to email and tracking and phone / text right at everyone’s smart phone finger tips all of the time.
3. DUI - back then it was a slap on the wrist, today you lose your job.
Imo all the too big to fail stuff and heavy fed involvement put on a flimsy bandaid that artificially drove up home and stock prices, and led to the greater class, generation, and racial resentment that persists today. I would include the entire time period from then up to now as a time period where markets haven’t been allowed to correct properly.
For my purposes, when comparing now vs the Great Depression I don’t think we ever truly left what started in 08 just yet. And I can believe it that money was easier even in 08 than today.
I have my biases, others may have different opinions. Historians will be better able to tell whether the involvement helped soften the blow of how bad things could have gotten or not.
“Will content buying replace “in the flesh” entertainment?”
No I don’t think so. Just started dabbling in this last week and already got scammed out of $140 on r/sexsells so I’ll stick to strip clubs.
Just fyi
I also remember Democrats bringing this up early 2021 as well. It's called the "3 martini lunch" allowing it to be deductible.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy…
Guess I will find out when 2021 taxes are filed but hell yeah, I have $150 lunches everyday entertaining clients!!!
IMO the biggest headwind for clubs is cities not wanting them and subsequently driving them out or making them no-fun so they don't prosper and subsequently not worth visiting – I think this is a much bigger headwind than competition from other aspects of the sex-market.
I’m also concerned about SCs being “watered down” to attract a more “mainstream audience”; basically becoming glorified nightclubs.
One can also argue that young people today that are often saddled w/ huge college-debt and insane home prices may be less apt/able to sustain a thriving SC scene.
I don’t think discretionary income plays into it. The younger millenial And Gen Z will spend, hence $8 cups of coffee daily. Custom rims on the hot-hatch. These are also generations that dont really carry around cash.
SC owners are the ones that ultimately need to adapt. Make credit pmts easy. Transparent reasonable pricing. Ensure the club doesn’t feel like a bordello from a third world country. No cell phones for dancers on the floor. Set schedules and online roll calls.
(I'm guessing this is the main point / the crux of your post?)
My take: No. / I don't think so; and I hope not. Content-buying is only a fad, IMO.
And, IMO, the decline by millennials and/or younger generations in visiting strip clubs is directly related to music. So, I feel like things will be dictated by where music goes...
And I've said it/this before. IMO, when strip clubs had its heyday, it was helped by the fact that folks back then, didn't have the easy, 'free, unlimited access' to music--like we do today. Today, we have quick, easy access to music on YouTube and Pandora, hell, we have music on our cellphones, etc. (So, to me), in its heyday, strip clubs were a place where dancers also showcased the music of the day. That's why MTV, VH1 rose in popularity when they did--because they also showcased music of the day, when we didn't collectively have quick, easy, goto platforms that showcased music; i.e. cellphones with music on it. So, we were all drawn to the music as much as we were drawn to dancers, etc. Back then, you paid $15 for an album, let's say, for the new Poison rock album or new Van Halen or Salt-N-Pepa album, then you'd also goto the stripclub and see your favorite dancer maybe dance to those fresh tunes. It was worth paying that back then and interesting to watch--on an average night to see someone perform to a song that you just heard and/or just bought. Because there were no other platforms for that--or that combined the two, like there is today.
Yo, today, anyone can listen to their favorite songs on YouTube over and over, for free. Then watch people make crazy dances to it on TikTok. Anywhere you look, soon as a song comes out, there are challenge dances on YouTube. What used to take time--weeks to months for a song to come out and your dancer to work it into her routine, now all that comes out in a single afternoon. Drake leaks a song on the internet that he just made, within an hour you may find all kinds of TikTok dances to it, whatever. What used to take time for stripclubs to do/ or to build up to, now comes instantly for free on social media, the internet, whatever. So, there's no need for anyone in the younger generation to goto a stripclub or a regular club for that matter. They get music for free anyways and get bombarded by music anyway. Just our older generations had to wait.
So, this is just a fad to me; content-buying. Something else will come along and make what's going on now, old.
I will continue to believe, that if anyone makes it suddenly harder to get access to today's music, you will then suddenly see a rise in clubs, and a rise in stripclubs, just to be around music.
To me, this content-buying is just the latest shiny thing, a new unexplored nook, that once it gets fully played with, folks will move on. We have content-buying now with other things like folks just buying Disney+ instead of having cable TV with 100 channels. But this just buying Disney+ thing, will not be around forever; something will one-up it.
Content-buying is part of our evolution, but IMO, it'll be just another chapter in the story. I hope.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxi_dance…
I think one major difference is (according to the article) these were considered exclusively a working class phenomenon. There wasn’t a culture of businessmen, celebrities, etc. frequenting the clubs. I think it makes sense if the dance price was the same for everyone and there was no such thing as VIP rooms.
That’s exactly what they do. They do have verified sellers on Reddit that I should have went with it was just my first time and the responses were overwhelming.
My guess is no because of all kinds of changes in culture and economics, but TV was a big one. Dancing adapted to be TV friendly. Dance teachers rebranded their business to appeal to housewives watching celebs on TV. Now ballroom dancing is pretty much exclusively square churchy middle class whites.
Today pole dancing and belly dancing are popular hobbies and young women insist they’re “not sexual”. When talk I to strippers under 25 it’s very common for them to ramble on about pole dancing the same way women talk about yoga or being vegan or whatever.
I think the future may see a polarized form of the industry. On one hand urban clubs will evolve to where they'll just be clubs with nude dancers you throw money at. On the other end of the spectrum we'll get brothels benefiting from human trafficking. The regular strip club or gentleman's club will slowly disappear unless prices get under control.
Actually skibum, the real question is. Will big brother permit such pissing and moaning like what you do...
With older men, nothing is changing. We did not grow up with social media, our brains aren't rewired for social media to give the same rewards as in-person sexual gratification, we are (for now) relatively wealthy, and we'll continue seeking out in-person options for sexual interactions.
My "get of my lawn" view of younger men is that the societal trend is emasculating, and they are embracing to those trends with little pushback. In addition, they DID grow up with social media, their brains give them a pleasure reward for social media interactions that is baffling to older men. Strip clubs seem to be (just a perception I have, no proof) the most vulnerable part of the sex industry, and I wouldn't be shocked to see them decline. They have competition from OF, which is low-effort, low-risk, and very low $ barrier to entry, and many young men choose to spend their $ there. There's always escorts, which are less public. And as sugar gets normalized and evolves more of a low end, I wonder if that will suck off some attention also.
Mostly baseless conjecture, and definitely hope I'm wrong
@gothamyte interesting thing on music. I know that stuff had huge impact on nightclubs, haven’t considered strip clubs. I’m not sure what to think there. But then again, I’ve never been really opinionated on music and rarely cared what the DJ ever played.
@8tm if I recall correctly, some taxi halls allowed men to buy dancers off the floor and sit with them for $6/hr. I don’t think it was a private booth or anything tho.
Also good point that taxi halls had a narrower audience. That combined with the fact they were concentrated in large cities is one possible reason it was harder for them to adapt to the times. Modern strip clubs at least have the advantage of being many types and in both urban and rural areas.
I didn’t even think of how more scandalous ballroom dancing turned into something tame, and comparing that to pole fitness. Good observation
@Pauldrake I’ll write out a summary of both thing a little later.
I finally understood what all the fuss was about back in the day, lol.
There are a few more thoughts I had:
1. Covid set the precedent that governors can shut down bars and clubs by fiat. In 2021 it seems so old fashioned that strip clubs can stay open because of lack of court admissible evidence of criminal activity.
2. Porn and strip clubs used to have a beneficial coexistence. It used to be way more common for clubs to bring in porn stars as feature dancers.
3. Cardi B effect. Some guys on here complained dancer attitudes got slightly worse after Hustlers came out.
"In some of the less reputable establishments the dancing at times was particularly "close," and the taxi dancer would use her body, namely the thighs, to produce an erection in her partner, and, if encouraged to continue, it would sometimes lead to ejaculation."