A vaccine will not be the COVID-19 panacea

Yeah, I kinda agree. I'm not sure I want to inject myself when I'm perfectly healthy with something that could make me sick. The death rate on this Covid thing is less than 0.1% and we mostly know who will be affected. So I am not scared of it at all. If I were 75 years old and 50 lbs overweight, I might have a different attitude though.

The vaccine if it comes will help, but you are constantly about the economy and I don’t believe the economy will recover as long as you have jackasses that refuse to act responsibly, wearing their masks and doing things in a way that give thinking responsible people a means to feel comfortable participating, don’t forget most of those folks that are protesting the social distancing are working class folks who’s spending while welcome, will not fund the economic recovery like those more affluent folks that have money for luxury cars and expensive meals, goods, and vacations

25, I doubt that scared rabbits are going to become less so because people are wearing masks and standing far apart. IMHO those people aren't going to truly be comfortable until they think that the virus is more or less gone. But I also think that more of them are going to become more risk tolerant over time as the months of isolation and self-denial continue to wear on them.

CDC data for USA

Total Covid-19 cases: 1,219,066 Total Covid-19 deaths: 73,297 Mortality rate: 6.0%

Jack, do we really need to rehash, in yet another thread, why that mortality rate is crap?

i am betting on my immunity system, dont want to be a lab rat for a new vaccine

@Rick Flu shots target specific strains of flu. There are countless variations but what are considered the worst are targeted. In other words getting a flu shot does not immunize you from all strains of flu and you can still get sick from what is considered to be lesser threat.

Where do you get the impression anything is being "rushed?" 12 months to a year and a half is pretty much the standard. The CDC and the FDA has a rigorous approval process so it exactly does not cause harm. There are always exceptions where some have issues but if they are much much lower than the bug itself then why not take it?

If you want to go all anti-vaxer then that's I guess your choice to risk yourself and your kids. The risk of not getting the approved vaccine is pretty much becoming known through the numbers.

I'm 78 and have stage 3 COPD. Maybe 30 lbs overweight. I do not use oxygen and use an inhaler once a day. I tire easily but am able to take care of myself. And up until 2 moths ago was seeing a girl 50 years younger than me OTC for uncovered sex. I got Pneumonia shots in 2017, 2018 and 2019. I was hospitalized for Pneumonia 3 times in those same 3 years. So I know that vaccines cannot protect you 100% but I do know that they lessen the effects.

They first year I was in the hospital for 4 days and went home using oxygen. The last time in December 2019, I was only in for 2 1/2 days. That 1/2 day was just the hospital preparing me for discharge. And I went home without oxygen. So I do believe in the benefits of vaccines. And if they come out with one for the current virus, I'll get on as long as there are no dangers or side effects.

I haven't had the flu in many years and I know that each strain is different and they never know for sure which one to vaccinate for but I get a flu shot every year as soon as they become available. It can't hurt!

What I do want before I am ready to go back to normal is a proven effective antibiotic to treat this virus if I should happen to get it.

Meanwhile my bank account grows.

===> "If you want to go all anti-vaxer then that's I guess your choice to risk yourself and your kids."

Hasn't anyone told you that slapping a silly label on an opposing position is a sign of mental and emotional weakness? It's what teenage girls and writers for Huffpost do.

As far as your points, our history of vaccines is riddled with examples of vaccines that had to be recalled and/or re-engineered because earlier versions proved to be more dangerous than originally thought. This includes some that were approved by the FDA, which is under tremendous pressure now to expedite approval for one for COVID-19.

My kids are most certainly vaccinated for the things that can kill them, further debunking your silly "anti-vaxer" label. But I'm not putting anything into them that hasn't had years of successful use, especially for a disease that isn't very dangerous for them anyway. You can bet that many other parents will feel the same way.

Flu shots need to be created well before flu season and the companies creating them merely make an educated guess as to what variant of the flu will circulate. Their projections haven't improved and don't look like they will. Covid, according to "experts" already has mutated into a more deadly strain, so a vaccine is nothing more than pablum for the frightened. Boston Heral reported that the nmber of cases in Massachusetts in people over 80 are equal to the number of cases ov everyone under 60. Its astounding. Based on Shadow's posts he is smart to take every precaution possible. If you are under 20 your fear should be of being killed in a car accident not the virus. Everyone has a right to live life as they see fit. I choose to go out to any place open. I even met my favorite constable to hand him papers to serve in person, rather than scan and email them. I plan on going out as much as possible and since I have 3 very ill relatives in Florida, the minute I feel I can drive down without the Governments of the states to the South of me fucking me over because of my license plate I will do so. Imagine being concerned about driving through other states in a land that is supposed to be one country.

I am not reading the post Rick is referring to, but ant-vaxxer is nothinjg more than ignorant hate speech from on line bullies. Live your own fucking lives while you cower in fear at home. Problem solved.

an·ti-vax·xer /ˌan(t)ēˈvaksər,ˌan(t)īˈvaksər/ nounINFORMAL a person who is opposed to vaccination, typically a parent who does not wish to vaccinate their child. "experts say several diseases that are avoidable are making a comeback due to anti-vaxxers who refuse to vaccinate their kids"

===>Hasn't anyone told you that slapping a silly label on an opposing position is a sign of mental and emotional weakness? It's what teenage girls and writers for Huffpost do.<=== Gee RickiBoi you’d never stoop to slapping a silly label on on anyone you disagree with nothing like a scared rabbit or teenage girl or horrors a Huff Post Writer.

^ got cut off/ Gee RickiBoi you’d never do that would you you wascally wabbit

Ok now 25, if you keep trolling this thread you're going to be sent to the muted kiddie table. ;)

I wasn’t trolling I was pointing out your own inconsistencies I think you need to grow the fuck up just because folks don’t buy your nonsense about all of this doesn’t make anyone a scared little rabbit, you are doing the most trolling here, try responding in a respectful way like Mark or someone else that disagrees without resorting to your name calling, then you run for cover ala beaver cleaver with your who me aw shucks phony bullshit be prepared to take a whipping if your gonna mix in your cheap shots

As a father, why would my kids need to vacinated if they are NOT at risk? The bottom line is if youre worried about my kids that are under 5 years giving a stranger covid, the reality is the stranger is too close to my kids. maybe COVID is a pedo repellant.

25, you or anyone else is free to disagree with me. But if you are butt hurt over something I said in another thread, take it up with me there. This is a different topic. And on that note, to the kiddie table you go.

Upright, I'm not debating the existence of the lable, just giving you grief for throwing it out there in that way. It was a cheap argumentative trick designed to imply that someone who doesn't want to expose their children to a brand new vaccine with little to no real benefit for them is somehow one of those anti-vaccination wingnuts.

label, lol

25, I take back what I just wrote. I did indeed use "scared rabbit" in this thread, so I un-muted your comment. The difference between what he did vs. my comment is that he is trying to disingenuously apply a broad brush label to anyone who doesn't want this specific vaccination. I, OTOH, was simply using an outrageous insult.

Far from butt hurt you don’t have the ability to do that to me, but you can’t have it both ways you called me a scared little rabbit then you posted that bullshit about how calling people names is cowardly ,you go ahead ignore me if you like, but it’s just proof positive that you can’t take what you dish out.

sigh

I didn't realize that you were among the scared rabbits that you were referring to, but if the shoe fits... ;) Also, I guess you didn't understand the nuance of what I posted immediately above.

But with that said, I will admit that I was being intentionally outrageous. Your complaint has been heard and noted. But if this another never-ending troll derailment on your part, then I'm going to mute your additional comments.

===> "As a father, why would my kids need to vacinated if they are NOT at risk? "

Exactly Salty. And if you were 30 or under, you'd probably be asking the same question about yourself. I suspect that even once a vaccine is discovered, widespread adoption will be unlikely. What we really need IMHO is something that lessens the impact of the infection, like Tamiflu does for the flu if you take it early enough.

As someone who works in biotech, I'll be first in line with my kids for an approved vaccine. A year and a half isn't rushed. It's prioritized and also cutting through some of that regulation the right usually hates.

There is a decent chance Covid will be the new flu. Without a vaccine the flu would kill way more people every year than it does. And yeah even if a vaccine is 40 percent effective that means less spread and the people who become sick usually get less sick and recover quicker.

I would like my kids to be vaccinated so they don't accidentally infect and kill their grandparents, both of whom are in at risk groups

Just out of genuine curiosity do you want to pick a fight, your answer was sufficient without the sigh, and still calling me a scared rabbit , like I said I’m not trolling rather, just responding to your seemingly intentional shade
If you’ll take the time to note I have not responded in kind just asked a very simple and legitimate question

Well James, they're your kids and you'll do with them what you want. But I somehow suspect that a strong % of parents are not going to join you in that. As it is, 40% of kids go without the flu vaccine each year and that is something that can be deadly to young children. Imagine how many parents are going to feel about vaccinating kids for something with virtually no risk of fatality?

And in your spread example, the simple answer in keeping the grandparents safe from it is to ensure that they are vaccinated. That was not really a compelling argument from the perspective of the kids.

For one - the Covid to flu comparisons need to stop - it's not apples to apples - w/ the flu no one saw what has happened in NY where there was a real concern there would not be enough ventilators, running out of PPE, and being stored in trailers, and staff being stretched to the brink where they had to put a call for out-of-state reinforcements - it's not the fucking flu so making apples to apples comparisons will likely lead to erroneous conclusions.

w.r.t. vaccines - yeah - no one knows how effective they will be - but the entire freaking scientific community all over the fucking world is working on them yet we constantly have armchair-epidemiologists stating what will work or not work - an ax-grinder is not a scientist - btw, AFAIK the polio vaccine was very successful as well as many other vaccines - thus saying a vaccine will not work for x.y, or z reason is grossly premature at best.

w.rt. vaccines, I don't like them - I've only had the flu vaccine once back in the mid-90s and I got sicker that I'd ever been in my life and that was the first and last time I got it - I've also heard of others having similar results in that they got severely ill post a flu-vaccine - doesn't mean I'm 100% opposed to vaccines, just that I avoid them if I can (I assume a certain minority of folks maybe just react a bit differently w.r.t. certain vaccines) - w.r.t. a Corona vaccine, I'd probably get it b/c Corona is a different animal, but I'd probably wait a month or two to see how it goes w/ the early-adopters.

^ "... and being stored in trailers ..."

and bodies being stored in trailers

Papi, that was all very dramatic. But I think you missed the point of my comparison to vaccinating for the flu.

40+% of children don't even get vaccinated for a flu that presents some level of risk to them. What % of parents are going to line them up for yet another vaccine - and an unproven one at that - for something that, on the whole, has been benign to children? A significant minority I suspect.

The reason that most parents vaccinate for polio, etc., is because they are horrible diseases with absurd mortality and many other crippling consequences. But it's going to be a much harder sell to introduce a new vaccine for something that won't likely harm the kids anyway and some ambiguous community containment concept ain't gonna' cut it.

I can see the point of kids not being vaccinated if it is shown they are at very little risk of infection (although there have recently been cases of kids having serious complications possibly related to Covid but I don't think a connection has been proven yet) - I just don't think treating Covid like the flu is the way to go.

A little perspective here but AIDS/HIV (a virus) has been around for 30 plus years and unbelievable amounts of money and brain power have been expended trying to come up with a vaccine. To date those efforts have been unsuccessful primarily due to the continuing mutations of the virus.

You all may want to give more thought to other potential courses of action and forget about pinning your hopes on a vaccine being developed anytime soon. Just sayin’

Polio still exists on this planet in places where vaccinations are resisted or too dangerous to go to. Eradication is only possible where there is widespread inoculation to eliminate all the possible carriers.

One faction of Anti-Vaxxer philosophy is oriented around there is a .000001% chance of having a bad reaction to vaccines for diseases I probably will never get or have a personal risk of getting ill from. So they skip it. But that decision affects others too and limits the ability to eradicate diseases. That's why diseases like measles have made a comeback.

That was my point of bringing up that "label" since it fit with your line of thinking.

Low vaccination rates for children for the flu is a public health issue. I believe income plays a role, as does documentation status. A quick glance at the data suggests very high child vaccination rates in more urban states and lower in more rural states, which may be a simple product of availability.

BabyDoc although we lack an HIV vaccine we do have a treatment that reduces the risk of spreading it and have gotten so good at keeping HIV patients alive especially when diagnosed early that the younger generation doesn't worry about HIV like we did.

@JamesSD. No argument from me. I'm well aware despite my drinking problem, lol.

My point was that people are spinning their mental wheels concerning things that are both theoretical and unlikely. IMO it is not helpful just as the idiotic focus on ventilators as some kind of essential treatment or cure was an insane waste of time, effort and money. I knew this at the time as did anyone with an understanding but now that there has been a post mortem of the use of ventilators the official results are in. Of those 66 years old or older put on a ventilator, 97.2% died, and those 65 and under had about 76% death rate. Overall death rate was 88.8% in the study. Hardly a miracle treatment.

And yet all the politicians along with the idiot/asshole media talking heads convinced the public that there was a shortage and that getting/manufacturing more was critical.

I'm just suggesting that the most uncommon thing of all, common sense, should start replacing all of this nonsense.

Lol James. Flu vaccine availability is not the issue. In fact, you will not find a cheaper or more widely distributed vaccine. Even Wal-Mart and Walgreens are hawking them for $10 a pop or free with insurance, including Medicaid.

I can't speak to why more people don't do it, but I can share my reason. After one of my kids had a horrible reaction one year, that was it for my family. Now, when the flu hits one of my kids every few years or so, we isolate the child and start Tamiflu right away. 2-3 days later all better, easy peasy.

google.com

Its not just the flu but if youre under 65 we should be allowed to take our chances without a vaccine.

By availability I mean ease of getting the vaccine on the fly. Most Wal-Mart don't stock the one for kids; we tried and had to go through our pediatrician.

Some keep on stating about the "low mortality rate" of Covid - ~40,000 people in the U.S. die in car-accidents - that is a miniscule .01% of the population - hey might as well not bother wearing seatbelts nor having the added expense of airbags and other costly safety features.

78,000 deaths and that's with serious social distancing. Scary to imagine what it could have been.

It's pretty clear now it mainly hits older men, especially the obese and smokers.

I actually don't believe vaccines really work either. And they have had some pretty awful effects on me. Every time I take a vaccine it wrecks havoc on my mental health for years afterward. I don't recover until around two-three years later. One vaccine I took gave me a horrific rash all over my body. I hate vaccines I will not be getting one even if it is for COVID 19.

But Papi_Chulo and JamesSD are largely correct. Its really scary to imagine how bad things could've gotten if we didn't shut down. Italy's excess mortality rates indicate that 56,000 people have died in Italy. Give Italy the same population as the US and that would've been close to 300,000 deaths.

The mortality rate is not 6% but it is probably around 1%. Unbelievably stupid to claim that the mortality rate is 0.1%. In order for that to be true, the US would've had to have at least 78 million people infected. That's 25% of the entire population of the US. Even the people we test don't turn out to be infected at that high of a rate. We've conducted 8.6 million tests and 1.3 million of them came back positive. That means about 16-17% of tests come back positive. Obviously people who are going in to get tested are much much more likely to be infected than the general population is.

"... It pays to stay unemployed. That might be a good thing ..."

cnbc.com

@Papi That might be true if those programs were effective and efficiently managed, but I have spoken with a number of workers over the last several weeks, less than 1 out of 5 has actually received any payment from UE ins and I know a few dozen folks like myself that have not received the stimulus payment, by the time it will be received it’ll be too late.

We have no idea what the numbers would have been had we not shut down. Italy has an incredibly bad healthcare system that functions poorly in the best of times, which contributed immensely to the death tolls. We would have done better even if the cases spiked. also, the shutdowns inordinately impacted the movements of younger and healthier people, not the higher risk folks who don't go to work or to many of the packed entertainment venues.

So we just don't know what could have been. But what we do now know, for certain, is that this kills old people and spares pretty much everyone else. We also know that we have paid a horribly steep price for this, which we will pay with poverty, social ills and even lives for years to come. So it's time for a different approach now, preferably one designed to protect the vulnerable while allowing the young to do what they are supposed to do, which is to live their lives and produce.

Being in at least one of the higher risk groups, I'll probably get a vaccine. I also won't suggest that my kids get it unless one of them moves into a higher risk group.

I keep misreading the title of this discussion!

When can I get my covid vaccine at Panera?

If there’s a discount on a sandwich - that would be much appreciated!

Old people die. News at 11. The long term toll from this will make the lockdown, in retrospect, the single worst act that Governments have committd since WW2.