What Do We Find For CA Strip Clubs New Legalities

Yeah, as I've been saying, it's been an unmitigated disaster for customers and strippers. I didn't have any insight into how the clubs themselves were doing, but based on the smaller crowds (at least on local dayshifts) I guessed it wasn't good.

^^^^ Any links to news articles?

I think something may have changed with the new year.

SJG

https://tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=7100…

More discussions ^^^^

SJG

https://tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=7037…

So it seems that this AB-5 is the current issue, codifying the Dynamex decision.

https://www.laboremploymentlawblog.com/2…

And this AB-5 is destroying local theater companies and making it very hard for them to have live music.

https://www.sanjoseinside.com/2020/02/19…

So what is this doing to strip clubs?

Well on this forum some have expressed the view that only DV is changing any of its practices. And well, they are a big target, so maybe they need to.

But consider this, CA courts are known to be pro worker. They will never decide anything which hinders a worker from earning a living. So since more and more people pay their bills through gig work, they are not going to totally eliminate it.

Consider, in the tech sector, not the dot com sector, the real tech sector, many start ups will have hiring contracts which besides requiring non-disclosure, they will also try to say that someone who accepts cannot work in that field again for 5 years. But if you ask a lawyer, they will tell you not to worry about that, 'cause CA courts will never enforce it. It is just a bully tactic.

So am I saying that Burger King could announce that they cannot afford to pay the minimum wage, but that they will be accepting applications from those who can work for half of that?

No I am not saying that. Burger King would not get away with that.

But a strip club is not the same situation. For one thing, strip clubs only exist because courts have upheld the dancer's right to free expression. Otherwise local and state laws would have prevented them.

https://diva.sfsu.edu/collections/sfbatv…

And then deciding on cases pursued by the Mitchell Bros, Rose Bird's court struck down a whole pile of Victorian Era laws, "Red Light Abatement". They carried criminal style penalties, but without a criminal type of due process and burden of proof.

A stripper is not like a fast food worker, she is out there, way beyond the pale. Being a stripper is a professional specialty, not just a low wage job.

Can you retain the services of a medical doctor without hiring them as an employee and making social security payments? Why would it be different with a stripper?

I think they still have Erotic Dancer's Alliance in SF. That was set up to help solve these kinds of problems.

And then that Dynamex, that sounds like a completely sleazy operation, almost like an MLM.

Well erotic dancers do not work in situations like that. They are not cheap labor.

This book should be mandatory reading for anyone with any interest in strip clubs:
https://www.amazon.com/Bottom-Feeders-Fr…

It was in this book that I learned of the first of these lawsuits, retired dancers suing to be retroactively classified as employees.

Jim and Artie solved the problem by setting up a talent agency. So the girls would all work for this talent agency, which would supply dancers as needed to all the clubs in the city. But they never would work for any individual club, they were not employees or contractors. They were just talent which was scheduled in as needed.

Now of course such a thing needs to be set up by lawyers, specialist lawyers.

We have the Dynamex decision and we have AB-5. But those are just works on paper. How a court would view present policies of a strip club, remains to be seen.

In the late 90's I found an article in Hustler Magazine, "Stripper Wars", and it was about the same kind of lawsuit again in San Francisco. The lead photo was full page width, two highly painted up girls on stage, on all fours, having a tug of war by biting down on the opposite ends of a Benjamin.

These lawsuits are not really dancers versus owners, they are always retired dancers versus owners.

So would CA courts let fast food places go under the minimum wage because they say that otherwise they would go out of business? No.

But a strip club is not necessarily the same thing, and CA courts will always favor ways which do not hinder a workers ability to earn a living.

Local cities use Temporary As Needed Status. Some have regular schedules, some don't. I feel that they are infringing on their union contracts. But they still do it. There are rules, 1000 hours per year max, and then they have to re-apply. And they get no benefits. The unions could challenge it, but they don't.

So for strip clubs to find a remedy, of course they need expert lawyers. But what might it look like?

Well, I know of one local area club, not San Francisco, which has never used schedules. I don't think they even have records or a roster list. Or at least they would never admit to it.

They might even charge the dancers the cover charge. But they don't pay them, don't make social security payments, and I don't think they get access fees.

The girls know the patronage levels throughout the week, and they also know how many other dancers tend to show up. On the weekends, most of them tend to come in. Some others tend to be there all the time.

But this is a wilder group of girls. Most of them are coming and going all the time. They come in with a suitcase on wheels full of slut wear. If you see them talking to a guy or doing a dance, then often the guy will then leave and then the girl will too, taking her suitcase with her.

It used to be even more extreme.

But I don't think this club will get hit with any employee status lawsuits.
****
So how to do this?

So work with someone and set up a talent agency for the entire city. In fact, as there may be hours limits, get three of them set up. Then get a dancer registry set up.

Girls are to go to this registry, show real id, and let them get a facial id photo. Record their info and let them pick a first and last name type of unique stage name. They can change this stage name, but they will be given a serial number which cannot be changed.

Then they also get a personal system account. All they need is a cell phone to log in and manage their affairs.

Then they are to go to the talent agent and register, using this serial number. Probably they will want to register with all three.

Now the club owners will also have computer systems which works with this. Mostly the computers just handle it, the owner only has to get into the loop when there is a decision to make.

So the owner decides when the new week starts, lets say it starts Monday. So probably the owner will want to re-invite each of their current girls for another week. So the computer will issue these invites, say Thursday morning. Most girls will probably accept.

But the girl may have shifted from one talent agency to another, for a while.

Some might ask for a schedule change. Some might want time off. Some might be going to another club.

So soon the owner will soon know if he has enough. He can request more at any time.

But at this weekly ritual, there maybe some girls he really wants, so he will have them flagged in the computer and invites will be issued. Most of these will probably be happy at their current club. But he might get some.

His computer can go through private records of ones they have had and invite some of them.

If still not enough, then the computer might have some problematic girls that they can invite, but tell the girl that they need to have a little talk first. If the girl replies to that, then probably she has mended her ways.

Others the talent agency might be featuring, newbies and returnies. Club computer searches to see it it has any history with them, and if flagged okay, they can be invited.

If girls show up at the club door, they will have to register. But if they have good id, club owner could hire them on the spot if they wish.

The registration agency can offer girls benefits packages, but she has to sign up and pay regularly.

As she activates her representation with the agency, she has to sign if she is not enrolled in benefits, and that this is not contract employment or employment of any type, and that she gets no pay or social security payments.

Then when she gets to the club she has to sign rules, no pay, not employment or contracting. Stint can be terminated early or she could even be sent home on the spot. You don't want drugs or girls escalating conflicts.

But to be in a play, does one have to sign a no prostitution rule? No of course not. Exotic dancers should not have to sign that either, cause that implies some complicity with questionable conduct.

So will the courts go along with this? Isn't it just like fast food trying to evade the minimum wage?

Well I think what would happen is that there will just be a much larger pool of dancers, maybe like 4x. And then there will be lots of semi-retired dancers in the registry, and they could be invited. The machine can be set to do this.

With more girls, and working less hours per week each and less hours per year, it will be a wilder bunch, a bunch which is harder to regulate, and a bunch more interested in OTC.

So be it.

Maybe this talent agency system gets paid by club. But it probably is not a lot of money and it does make things easier and safer for the girl. Or maybe the girls pay this system. Everything works for the girl, better.

Like the idea, think it would work, and that clubs could stay out of trouble?

SJG

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You are getting this interpretation from lawyers. But no matter what the law and the past court decisions say on paper, that still does not completely dictate how a court will rule on a future situation.

That Dynamex was an extremely sleazy operation, not a good case to dictate all future labor practices from.

CA courts in particular have always protected a worker's right to earn a living. In fact this is the only reason we have strip clubs today. Otherwise local ordinances would have prohibited them. The dancers were entitled to free expression.

If you say that the court is completely locked in by Dynamex and AB-5, then earlier court precedents are being trampled on. It amounts to saying that there can never be such a thing as a freelance exotic dancer I guess maybe if she just dances out of the sidewalk. The courts did not explicitly go that far in their decision.

How freelancers can get benefits:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freelancer…
https://www.freelancersunion.org/

The local cities have these Art and Wine Festivals, and vendors come in with all sorts of stuff. They are not city employees.

Some swingers clubs locally have had exotic dancers, and they have a stage with a poll.

If a woman comes to the club and wants to get in and dance, this does not mean that the business is "suffering or permitting her to work on the premises."

If the club is not paying her, and if she is not getting money and paying it to the club, how is that working?

So skip the talent agency and just let whatever dancers are listed in the club's registry in when they come. There are some rules, but mostly you don't worry about what they do.

This is how it was at the one club I spoke of which had no schedule. I don't see them getting hit with any EDD claims, or any lawsuits. The argument that would have to be made would be too stretched.

And then with Chesa Boudin, there is no longer any reason to worry about what the dancers do. The less known about it the better.

But inside it is safer and less of a public bother than out on the sidewalk.

And as both the women and the men are club members, all prohibitions on lewdness and sex are lifted, it is not a public place, not a retail business. And no alcohol.

Erotic Dancer's Alliance would love this!

SJG

Getting around legal limits and around AB5, getting TJ Hong Kong Bar quality:

I think the future is in combining the best of AMPs, Strip Clubs, and Swinger's Clubs. Strip Clubs have the best front rooms. AMPs have the best Back Rooms. Swinger's Clubs have the membership club model which is the best legal strategy.

Traditional Swinger's Clubs never allow P4P. But there is evidence that some have not stuck to this. But enforcing against this would always be very difficult. And getting the necessary public mandate even more so. And in San Francisco, Chesa Boudin says that he will never prosecute any crimes which amount to just sex between consenting adults.

The membership club model gets you around all public sex and lewdness laws. It also gets you around zoning laws, as these are private events.

"Lingerie Modelling" sounds like a service business, and so the women would be the crew, and so this falls squarely in the realm of AB5.

But "Adult Lingerie Club" does not sound like a service business at all. Even the Care Bear security are just club members who have been trained.

Charge the women the same entrance fee as the men. Maybe $100 per visit.

Don't try to get any more money off of them. You don't even know about any other money. You see nothing.

Have curtained alcoves, but don't charge money for them. And the more people do in the front room, the better. That encourages everyone else.

Offer fruit juice, but don't even bother charging money for it. Less staffing complexities.

The way to increase revenue is just to expand the scale, more women and men, more locations, special volunteer costuming and shows.

The old way may be over. But the future can still be bright.

Historically Swingers Clubs have been run by creepy Republican marrieds. But there are examples where this has changed, and San Francisco is one of the places.

Strip clubs have the best front room, because they are hangout places, and so you can lay back, don't have to agree to the back room. This is conducive to casual non-committal fraternizing. Not for free, but this preps both parties for the back room. And it is conducive to Front Room Makeout Sessions.

AMPs have the best back room because there is usually plenty of space on the bed like wide massage tables, and on the floor, and they usually give you a chair. Nice hooks to hand your clothes, and the man is expected to get naked.

Swingers Clubs have the best legal set up, as there really are not legal limits front room or back room. Only the criminal law. But very hard to enforce the P4P prohibition, and especially in that environment.

I estimate at $100 a head, an Adult Lingerie Club could gross $1,000,000 a year. And it will have low overhead and low start up costs. Maybe not equal to a Strip Club revenue, but still plenty good, and times are a changing.

SJG

Bay area scene continues to be decimated!

SJG

I want to thank you for bumping these loopy, all-over-the-map threads from a guy who hasn't been to a strip club, TJ, or seen a vagina.

It's so much easier to block them when you do.

The problem is clubs not following the law and ripping dancers off. And yeah some dancers are upset they have to pay taxes.

Cali clubs were dying even before the pandemic. High prices...business sector greed. Lots of very sketchy business dealings. Not human trafficking but gangs having girls put in time by working at clubs. This then led to gang members being hired in some positions. Then came RICO. Its mostly Norteno Crip and Blood gangs. Then just cost of living. Its an expensive hobby.

^ I am not trying to be rhetorical or sarcastic (this time), but I googled RICO and that was a law introduced in 1970. Strip clubs were just barely getting started then so I’m not sure how that affected clubs at all, especially recently. Could you explain further on that?

It comes into play when a business is used as a front for illegal acts. Im referring to gang involvement...illegal operating hours, drugs, prostitution and sexual exploitation, money laundering

The club doesn't have to orchestrate those things. Its enough for it to profit off of them

The issue is that most people want much looser anything goes type clubs than what we now have.

And then AB-5 totally screws over most gig work.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces…

SJG

It helps gig workers but companies keep looking for loopholes to screw them over. Thats the problem

It does not always help gig workers, not in every situation, just in some.

Most people want looser and more open strip clubs, and this cannot work when you have to have the dancers be employees.

So lets start from the beginning, what do you want in a strip club, or even, what do you want in a woman?

1. You want her to dress and paint up for you.

2. You want her to follow your lead.

3. And you want her to give up her three inputs without reservation.

As I see it women are basically wired up this way. Its just that there are often other contextual things going on which get in the way, try to throw us back so we have to live like the characters in a Jane Austen novel, being concerned about dowries and the like.

So how are strip clubs doing today?

Well on the first item they are doing real good. Still some room for improvement, but for the most part you find the women dressed and painted up to please better than you will find anywhere else.

How about the second point? Well there is a real problem there. To have her follow your lead, you have to be able to feed her money and interact with her in an unstructured way. And this only works well in the front room, and with no new house cut. So actually what Swinger's Clubs have is better.

And then how about the third? Well our strip clubs are still kinda limited, often only clandestine male undress. Not really committed to FS and load pumping, no bathroom access. AMPs are actually better.

So we need to invent a new kind of venue.

SJG

Yeah. Brothels are illegal

Lots of stuff serves the same purpose. Such laws are always hard to enforce, simply because it is a crime committed between consenting adults. And then in many situations, the laws are very close to impossible to enforce. The whole thing after all is just a privacy violation.

Lots of other situations where you could never even apply that interpretation.

But this is not what hamstrings our strip clubs today. It is state and local ordinances, zoning rules making it impractical to open more clubs and have competition, and concentrated ownership obliged to maximize returns for its investors, and where they can gain more by closing clubs and thus eliminating a potential future competition.

SJG

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The Ronettes
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You cant legally consent to an illicit act. The laws are easy to enforce. Its just a matter of priorities

No, sex, condoms, money, these are not illegal. The law only prohibits the making of an agreement. And this is usually only know by two people. If one of them is a cop, then that is usually entrapment.

Such enforcement endangers all of our civil liberties. And of course people can consent to whatever they want.

Lots of women are very happy to earn their living that way.

SJG

It falls under illicit labor and those laws won't change.

Icey, no one is talking about anything where the house brokers P4P sex, that would be idiotic. And the Prostitution law is always very hard to enforce, and in many situations totally impractical.

And no one has every tried to prosecute a prostitution case under labor codes.

But this is not even where I am trying to steer this thread. The prostitution law is not what is hamstringing US strip clubs. Rather it is all these other local and state ordinances, and then labor law.

In particular, with this thread I am trying to talk about ways of getting out from under CA AB-5, and of getting to something as good as TJ.

Some large operator is of the opinion that strip clubs will soon be smashed by former dancer lawsuits under AB-5. Then they feel that they will be able to buy them up on the cheap. And then you know what, they will close most of them, just like in San Francisco. They gain more by purchasing a club and closing it, than they would by operating it or just by holding on to their money and not purchasing it. This is because of zoning laws making it impractical to open more clubs.

So if we want a better outcome we have to find some way of making something which is like a strip club, but is not a strip club. It is better than a strip club.

I feel that you get this by looking at the legal compliance model pioneered by Swingers Clubs, and by looking at how AMPs operate.

Strip clubs are still like the old Wild West Saloons. And even if they don't serve alcohol, they are still very restrictive places, not at ease.

In Houston, on Old Telephone Rd, they have about 6 Asian Hostess Bars. Massage style back rooms, and in the front, makeout sessions are common.

CA law regulates massage, so it could never be done like this. But a new style business which combines the best of Strip Clubs, Swingers Clubs, and Massage, I think would be the best.

SJG

AB-5 has helped some gig workers, like those who were at sleazy things like Dynamex.

https://www.laboremploymentlawblog.com/2…

But for others, it has destroyed their livelihoods, such as the musicians who worked for theatre companies.

And then Uber, Lyft, and Instacart are exept because they don't really have "premises". The latter was designed to get around it, their drivers waiting at the edge of a Walmarts parking lot.

What we are facing now is highly Walmarted Strip Clubs, and not very many of them. This could do in the livelihoods of strippers, by the law suits from the former strippers. So we to figure out something else.

Most people want looser and more open strip clubs, and this cannot work when you have to have the dancers be employees.

So lets start from the beginning, what do you want in a strip club, or even, what do you want in a woman?

1. You want her to dress and paint up for you. And this is why you want it all to happen on site. No automobiles, no coverups or changing shoes or clothes. This See Want Get is what strip clubs are all about, or what they should be about.

2. You want her to follow your lead. This means engaging with you right where you and she meet, and so this means front room makeout sessions. Maybe more in the front room too.

3. And you want her to give up her three inputs without reservation.

As I see it women are basically wired up this way. Its just that there are often other contextual things going on which get in the way, try to throw us back so we have to live like the characters in a Jane Austen novel, being concerned about dowries and the like.

So how are strip clubs doing today?

Well on the first item they are doing real good. Still some room for improvement, but for the most part you find the women dressed and painted up to please better than you will find anywhere else.

How about the second point? Well there is a real problem there. To have her follow your lead, you have to be able to feed her money and interact with her in an unstructured way. And this only works well in the front room, and with no new house cut. So actually what Swinger's Clubs have is better.

And then how about the third? Well our strip clubs are still kinda limited, often only clandestine male undress. Not really committed to FS and load pumping, no bathroom access. AMPs are actually better.

So we need to invent a new kind of venue.

You want the legal compliance model of a Swinger's Club, membership, not public, outside of Sex and Lewd Conduct prohibitions. And you want the option of pseudo privacy and nice place to undress like and AMP. And you want the unstructured hang out zone of a strip club, as that is conducive to front room makeout sessions.

Charge and entrance fee and a low annual membership fee. But don't charge for anything else and don't try to get any money off of the women.

Membership clubs are safer and the women are more likely to open up when the feel that there is at least a little bit of screening.

Membership club should be exempt from all zoning because it is not public.

Hard for LE to get in. Harder still for them to get a mandate to try and crack it. Committee of the women and men decide on applications and on any suspensions or banishments. Could even use old AMP facilities.

SJG

So there is evidence that some Swinger's Clubs have crossed the P4P line, even though that is antithetical to the traditional Swinger Lifestyle.

And then some allow Swing Club escorts, paid by the guy who brings them, but free at the club. Probably most of these women make most of their money outside of the club.

But this opens the door to allowing direct P4P. I am not saying this is impossible for LE to crack, but it can be made very difficult.

ANd today not all swingers clubs are creepy Republican Married. Today there are many that draw younger single people. ANd their are some that talk about and have "strippers".

Generally Swinger's clubs, being membership clubs are safer, and their security is Care Bears, not Meat Head Bouncers. ANd some screening does help the women open up more.

SJG

Its not difficult to prosecute illegal brothels. Uts just a matter of where resources are allotted.

There are so many women around though. Most will do anything to find and keep a man

Very difficult to prosecute prostitution cases, not without shredding the Constitution.

Brothels, no we don't really have those, except the licensed houses in NV.

But lots of prostitution goes on everyday. Not going to decrease.

SJG

Lets start off by getting one thing clear. The reason that we have had strip clubs is not because the powers that be one day decided, well this is okay. And the reason that the envelope was extended was not because the authorities legalized it.

No, it was because courts found in the Constitution a free speech right for the performers. And the envelop was extended because people like Jim and Artie Mitchell found ways of doing things such that enforcement was impossible.

When people enter San Francisco, the first thing they should see is a bigger than life statue of Jim and Artie Mitchell.

And anyone interested in strip clubs should read this:
https://www.amazon.com/Bottom-Feeders-Fr…

If we want to continue to have strip clubs, and if we want the envelope to continue to be extended, then we need to find ways of fighting back. Otherwise, places like San Francisco will continue to deteriorate.

SJG

Jim and Artie Mitchell
https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/JIM-…

SJG

Prostitution is unconditional. Illicit labor. Then lewdness ordinances etc get tagged on.

Strippers aren't hookers. Strip clubs aren't brothels

Any state legislature that wants to can decriminalize now.

No one ever enforces labor laws here, in 1 on 1 transactions.

Prostitution goes on everywhere all the time, just in conditions where enforcement is impossible or impractical.

SJG

So we need to build a new kind of strip club, really, something which will replace and be superior to strip clubs.

SJG

Illegal contractors hookers etc are regularly prosecuted. If you have p4p in it its a brothel not a strip club though

No one is prosecuted for being an illegal contractor. That kind of law is only enforced against the employer. And because someone is doing prostitution, they are never prosecuted under labor laws.

SJG

So if an establishment is a membership club, what does that mean? Well you should keep it secret, but you do need to have a list of members, best with record of their ID's, and to have collected some small fees.

Since you are not a retail business you cannot have a liquor license and you cannot serve alcohol. Some swingers clubs make a big deal out of having people bring and share wine. I though would suggest not doing this. I look to the example of the Sights membership Strip Club in Newark New Jersey. The found it was best for the club and the neighborhood to prohibit alcohol on the premises. It was just for appreciating the "art of nude dancing".

Sights operated with tremendous renown. It ran for a long time, but not forever. I am not saying that LE could never crack such a place. But it can be very hard for them. And these sorts of places can be set up very cheaply. Kind of like AMPs.

And then, conventional strip clubs could probably be taken down by LE if they really wanted to and felt that they had the political mandate.

So no one gets in who is not a member. LE cannot storm the gate without alarms being set up.

That LE could make a member into a Narc, or that a deep cover LE could register is still a possibility. But there are still methods which could be used to minimize the risk in this. And again, it is like AMPs, they are not totally impervious to LE, they just are not that attractive of a target, and they can be refloated very easily.

SJG

Strip clubs have a lot going for them. But at this point, in major metro's, they are passe. Need to develop a new form.

SJG

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https://tuscl.net/photo.php?id=2305

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Traditionally Swingers Clubs have been Creepy Republican Marrieds. But this is no longer always true.

Montreal
http://www.orage.club/en/home/

San Francisco
https://www.clubkiss.us/sessions/new

And there is evidence that some have crossed the P4P line. Girl from Sunnyvale club was the first one who told me this. In a members only environment it could be extremely difficult for LE to ever crack it, or ever feel that they have the mandate to do so.

SJG

Stingers clubs have hookers but they're usually clip joints for single men. And they do get raided.

Most swingers clubs do not have hookers, but yes, some do. And then in some being a member means more than it does in another. So some are more wide open than others. so some will be easier to raid than others.

Most strip clubs would be easier to raid and bust than a members only club.

Private stuff is just not that attractive a target for LE.

SJG

Strip clubs, UHM, are something which emerged in the 90's. At this point though we find problems in the Walmarting of the industry. It should be just as good as TJ, or as good as the best of our underground circuit was.

But as it is now, very hard due to zoning for anyone to open new clubs. It is a contracting industry. But these venues are passé, we need something else.

SJG

What kind of venue would you like to see?

1. Membership Club, following swinger's club model.

2. Anything goes front room

3. No alcohol on premises

4. Semi-private spaces available at no extra charge.

5. Women and men both pay entrance fee, but get no more money from either.

6. No non-members get it.

No questions beyond that. No one knows about the private adult to adult relations.

Maybe call it, Adult Lingerie Club.

Does not cost much to set up, could use vacant AMP space with the showers and washer and dryer.

SJG

Say you arrived. You would swipe your id card and enter your PIN, as the door man checks your face through the cameras. He would then buzz you into the lobby and then into the main room.

In which you might find a stage, if there is enough room and if the women want to use it. You would find lots of hotties parading around in little or nothing more than high heels and makeup. You would select one and approach. They might know you. If you do not pick one, then probably one will move on you, likely climbing on you and getting everything into your face and ramming her tongue into your mouth. It would be as good as the best in TJ, and as good as the best of our underground circuit.

There is no law against pumping jizm into consenting adult women, and there is no law against giving them money either. If you try to some how make a crime out of it, then you are simply criminalizing the mechanisms of marriage, and deciding who is legitimate and who is not.

If you want to follow up seeing your woman outside, that is between you and she.

Women pay the same to get it as men do, house gets no other money than that. Such a private club should be outside all zoning laws, the thing which makes it impossible to open more clubs in SF.

And SF is now run by an operator which profits by purchasing clubs just so that it can close them down.

Strip clubs are inherently problematic and they draw creeps and drunkards. Private clubs are fine.

SJG

https://tuscl.net/photo.php?id=1793

https://tuscl.net/photo.php?id=1795

https://tuscl.net/photo.php?id=1794

https://www.cheetahssunnyvale.com/

Cheetahs Sunnyvale, lists on TUSCL as closed. But from web site seems to be open.

Used to advertise in San Jose Metro. Not now. But still being advertised in Spanish language news paper. But these are strange ads, two women pictured, one you would never use in a strip club ad.

Known for ultra hot lookers. From web site it looks just fine, nothing changed.

SJG

When strip clubs got started in the US, they were generally in violation of local and state laws.

Strip clubs got going in the US at a time when many people thought the very idea would have to be illegal.

But brave people fought and got ordinances over turned.


1967, SAN FRANCISCO NOTABLES, MELVIN BELLI AND FRIEND CAROL DODA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCa3skhG…

https://timeline.com/topless-carol-dodas…

https://diva.sfsu.edu/collections/sfbatv…

So when Jim and Artie Mitchell opened their theatre, originally it was just for showing movies.

Then they added a live nude show. But there was no tipping and no sitting at the stage. Performers would enter from the dressing room to the stage and then return the same way. They got $25 per performance, and that was it. No touching, no fraternizing.

Then Jim and Artie came up with the idea of letting them go out into the audience, and so lap dancing was invented.

Okay, but today, now that strip clubs have been Walmarted, what they amount to are fine tuned will oiled machines for separating marks from their money. No enforceable laws require that they be run that way.

We deserve better and we can do better.

Strip clubs today are a backwards institution.

SJG

One of the problem is that people aren't opening more clubs. High rents, and zoning.

Some of this stuff is probably as unconstitutional as the old laws which were struck down in the 60's and 70's. But still, new clubs are not opening, and the San Francisco operator makes money by buying clubs and then closing them. We have to know that there is something wrong about this.


But one of the new kinds of things we do find is:
https://clubkiss.us/sessions/new

This can be extrapolated on.

SJG

The Rolling Stones - Anybody Seen My Baby
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BinwuzZV…

Why not just make the best of it and enjoy the clubs

^^^^ Because we deserve better. And in San Francisco it is a sinking situation because no one can open any new clubs. And the present clubs are in the hands of a sole operator who gets return for their investors by purchasing clubs and closing them.

SJG

And sure, strip clubs have been Creepy Republicans, Alcoholics, Guys Cheating on their Wives, PLs, and Frat Boys. But it does not have to stay this way, we can do better. Other people have already broken new ground.

SJG

Stones, Gimme Shelter, original Merry Clayton version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbmS3tQJ…

You can still go out and enjoy clubs. Not going at all just because things could hypothetically be different just cuts into your level of enjoyment.

Find the club that suits you best and go with it.

I do everything which I need to do. This is why I am acutely aware that there are problems with our strip clubs, especially in the bay area.

I am not anyway a consumer of recreational services, or of chemical mood alternants.

SJG

So there is we are told this Party in the NYC area. This can also be inspiration for a new venue. It is in the Swinger's Club private party membership club model. And the location changes.

But unlike in many Swinger's Clubs, I don't think they insist on BYOP ( Bring Your Own Pussy ). So they let in single men and I think there are lots of stripper grade single women. Seen some photos.

People have posted about it on this forum. Don't know if it still runs, if there could be more than one of these. Don't know if anyone is trying to do this in other cities.

Don't know how you get on the list or get invited.

It could have substantial advantages over our strip clubs, especially in a place with problems like the Bay Area.

There are others who know about this.

https://www.thecut.com/2020/11/nyc-under…

And like a Swinger's Club it is intended to promote sex on site. This is the most like a strip club of any members only private party that I have herd of.

Remember, San Francisco is screwed up because there are impediments to opening new strip clubs and letting it get wilder and more off the hook.

And usually it makes it much easier for women to really let loose and get bonobo when there is some kind of screening.

SJG

Here more for Club Kiss
https://www.sfstation.com/club-kiss-b244…

KISS changes the rules about what a party can be.

"Club Kiss is one of the unique events that makes you look up at the sky and thank the heavens that you live in San Francisco. This is an incredible one-of-a-kind super freakin fabulous thing. Gigantic thumbs up all around." B&C

Club Kiss is a member’s only Adult Social Club with a sexy, sassy, crowd of couples and single women who come here for some seriously fun XXX adult action! Our private, dedicated on-premise venue is comfortable and spotless with a colorful ambiance, great tunes, and quality mood lighting, making it our own little slice of heaven! All our guests are pre-screened so you can be guaranteed that the crowd will be downright HOT and SEXY!! You can play on our stripper pole, hang out at our Tiki bar, or get as naughty as you dare in our private (and public) play areas.

If you're looking for an on-premise event with a sociable, friendly scene and a rocking dancefloor then you're in the right place! We only have the best DJs creamed from the top of San Francisco's DJ scene playing funky hip hip, house and grindy dance music, perfect for getting your flirt on the dancefloor. It's not long before the hotties tops come flying off and the action really starts! Yee-ha!

Single women can attend Club Kiss free of charge! Club Kiss is such a safe, respectful, friendly place- it’s the ideal club for single women to come and feel totally at ease.

If you don't believe us, check out this email:

"I attended last nights amazing Club Kiss and I just wanted to send you all my heartfelt thanks. I have never been so graciously received and royally treated at any club. As a single woman the club scene can be really daunting but I felt at ease immediately at your lovely venue. I met so many attractive and really nice people, I just can't wait to come back. Wow! thank you again." KD


Here is the founder's book
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00TZE…

An earlier thread about her and her book:
Sex Culture Revolutionary

https://tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=5156…

And I am going to PM the person who posted about that NYC party.

At this point strip clubs are behind the times.

SJG

Some one who connects with Polly
http://superstaravatar.blogspot.com/

SJG

Swingers clubs allow single guys. Swingers parties allow them by invite or limit the number.

Many Swinger's Clubs do not allow single guys. Of the ones which do, it is usually limited to Friday nights, and even then only so many. And so if a single guy gets in, he will likely end up partying with a married Republican at best.

This of course is a problem.

Now an exception to this tight control is this Thad's in San Diego. But this is a story in itself.

This Club Kiss in San Francisco does not allow single guys, or at least that is what they say. If there is any exception, then it would be people they know.

Now of this rotating party in NYC, I believe that that did allow lots of single guys in, and that that is the closest to a retail strip club, and an interesting model to learn from.

SJG

Ones in Vegas all let single guys in every night. Anyone who pays the cover charge gets in.

Vegas, I had not known that. That certainly brings in the money.

Most Swinger's Clubs find that if they let the ratio of men to women get too high, and if they let many men in who are not bringing a woman, that changes the vibe and the men engage in "aggressive cruising" which irritates the women.

If they are doing like you say, then that does start to sound like a Strip Club. And it does raise in my mind the suspicion that the women are making money. So this is along the lines of what I have been calling for.

This lists one in Reno, one in Pahrump, and two in Vegas
https://www.swinglifestyle.com/swingers/…

SJG

They're businesses and most are clip joints unless there's an event. Its all about $$$

I've been to swingers clubs and parties. The private parties are more fun.the clubs it really varies. I've been maybe 50 times or so and had kinky sex like 10 times.

What do the women look like, Suburban Soccer Moms, Real Estate Agents, Republic National Convention Delegates? Do they seem to be married?

How are they dressed and painted up?

How do you feel overall about the vibes and the place?

Anything to suggest that the women are getting money, on site or off site?

With the instant sex, wouldn't you like this better than most strip clubs?

SJG

We can't force them to change, but we can invent something new and make it work. What screws up most places are local zoning and ordinances which prevent the opening of new clubs, and which are much easier to enforce than the prostitution law. And these laws have never faced Constitutional test. The only reason we have strip clubs today is that an older set of laws were subjected to Constitutional test and they lost. But a new generation of Sex Contras has written new laws, and these have never been tested

And then San Francisco is pretty much a monopoly, with the operator saying that strip clubs are a dying industry because they look at the nation wide POS tallies and the the public liquor sales tallies of competitors. So they spend money to purchase clubs on the cheap just so that they can close them.

https://tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=7037…

SJG

Il duro del roadhouse Knock on wood Jeff Healey band with Kathleen Wilhoite
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qURD_lt…

So ICEE, 50 times at a Vegas Swingers Club? Is that $100 a visit? It must be good.

What are the women like, Suburban Soccer Moms, Real Estate Agents, Republican National Convention Delegates?

This would be my fear. And do they seem to be married?

Are they in high heels and makeup, and could this be comparable to the best strip club because you can engage with them as you wish, and then fuck them.

Your account is most encouraging, saying that there could be other options. But please tell me more.

Does it seem like the women are somehow getting money out of it?

Thanks,
SJG

SJG I've bought memberships so it came out to less plus cover charges have varied over the years. From $30 to $200 .

Women.... a lot of middle aged women with I think bi curious husbands. Lots of older couples from Arizona complaining how conservative it is there. Younger couples are rare. For a while there were a lot of Japanese tourists. Id day overall maybe 30% are attractive.

Yeah its pretty much almost all married couples.

High heels and makeup are common. But most end up barefoot

Women don't get money out of it. I think most do it for their husband's fantasies.

Its nothing like a strip club.

Do you think it could be changed into something which is not only like a strip club, but which is better than a strip club?

SJG

A very good book for understanding this:

https://www.amazon.com/Lifestyle-Look-Er…

They all say that it is the women who are more crazy about it than the men.

Some of this is just that when the husband watches someone else fuck his wife, he is likely then to just really go at her like he hasn't in decades.

If a club is letting unlimited numbers of single men in, then usually that does cause a problem. Usually that will tend to result in P4P women showing up.

Like at the Sunnyvale Brass Rail, they would never let P4P come in, or at least they would try not to. But they would show up and get in for the amateur contest. Some of them would not actually even participate in the contest.

Thanks ICEE for your info. Your expertise is most valuable.

SJG

Humble Pie - Honky Tonk Women [1972]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8h0u2lh…

Single men and women can only access certain lobby areas. Then there are couples only areas. Where a single person can only go if a couple invites them. Thats how most function as clip joints for single men.

Some clubs have hostesses who are paid to show men couples areas.

P4p usually occurs when pimps bring their hoes in and act like a couple and approach single men.

Its completely different from a strip club. The quality of eye candy is definitely worse.

Well sometimes the hostesses are paid and they do more than that.

But yeah, what you are describing is not a substitute for a UHM Strip Club.

P4P women come in as soon as they hear of a venue where it is basically safe. They don't need or want pimps, for the most part. The safer it is, the less likely they would want a pimp.

Thanks for the info!

SJG

The hostesses can't do anything with guests. They're working all night and no place.

1 club i know has massages and they sometimes did but got shut down.

Having a pimp is more deep than just about safety.

But why have hookers at a venue designed for consensual sex?

hookers only engage in consensual sex.

The girls want pimps when it is not safe. Otherwise they do not want them.

Girls who told me about private clubs were at Sunnyvale Chettahs. They did not want to get busted, but they would be more than happy to be fucking customers. But because of LE they dared not.

Thanks

SJG

If you're looking for private parties with hookers those exist. But they're not swingers parties.

Sex with a girl who wants you vs with a girl just doing it for a bag are 2 different things

Hoes crave pimps coz of the stability they offer.

Don't just read things. Go out and experience them

I have plenty of experience with high mileage girls, thank you. I continue to learn from them.

There at least was this private party in NYC, at a rotation location. Don't know what that was really like.

Generally, it becomes impossible for LE to enforce the prostitution laws when dealing with people who know each other. The law just doesn't fit the situation.

We need a new kind of venue to replace strip clubs.

And as far as girls wanting 2 bags, no I want nothing to do with drug addicts.

And Swinger's Clubs are just an example of a legal compliance model, a way around the public sex and lewdness laws.

SJG

Remember the movie Colors (1988)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJQAKDbq…

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094894/med…

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094894/

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-sean-p…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar%C3%ADa…

For those who saw it, there is a party, and the girl is there collecting money and servicing guys. This is not a membership club, it really is a private party. Impossible for LE to make any bust there. This is an example of what could be used to replace UHM strip clubs with something better.

SJG

Yes, here @s88 posted about this:

https://tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=7093…

SJG

^^^^^ This seems to be the way we should be looking to do things.

SJG

GLADY KNIGHT & THE PIPS-LIVE IN CONCERT, very good!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl_5YUO5…

New s88 post 3 days ago:
https://tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=2075…

See how important old threads are!

SJG

@s88, we've been talking about what might make for an alternative to strip clubs, something better. Then I remembered that over a year ago you were posting about this floating party in NYC. Then now I see that you have just recently posted:

https://tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=7093…

The issue is that for one thing, US clubs are often too tame, too restrictive. And then in some places the market is no longer competitive due to zoning laws. And then there are start up costs, and then there is McStripClub taking over San Francisco.

So the alternative would seem to be some sort of private event. We should use the legal compliance model pioneered by Swinger's Clubs. That gets you around zoning and public sex and lewdness laws. But we don't want to replicate the culture, Republican Wife Swappers, LOL.

At such a private party, it will be very hard for LE to crack it. It just isn't worth the effort and cost for them. And it can be very difficult. The more the people know each other and are not going to be bullied by fear of public humiliation into a guilty plea, the more difficult it will be for LE. It could very easily be so difficult that they don't even try.

I mean the most important thing is that you want nice looking women in high heels and makeup.

And then beyond that, its real primal, See - Want - Get. And you get her dressed and painted up exactly as she was when you first spotted her. No need to walk beyond stripper shoe range, or to use motor vehicles. No rules about the front room engagement, its just between you and she.

So how does one get invited to these parties? How many are there in NYC? Any articles? Any websites? Is anyone doing this in any other cities? Need to learn some of the legal details. Do they claim to have "members" or just "invited guests"?

SJG

Lenny Kravitz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW2qlKa6…

Youre making it too complicated. You can get hookers anywhere.

Well, you don't get the same kind of See - Want - Get set up in other venues.

SJG

You do. You get it at any venue. The difference being you face the possibility of rejection.

Most places are set up to prevent instant sex.

Here it says of the Netherlands, "Girls get fucked in back of disco for rum and cola".
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0111135/

Well in this country most places are set up to prevent that. It's the public sex and lewdness laws, and I think it is also concerns about safety and liability.

So the other way is a private party, private event. The people who pioneered this approach, because of the public sex and lewdness laws, are Swinger's. But other people seem to be using the model themselves, but with out the Republican wife swapping culture.

Is it only NYC, or is it in other places. The people who first turned me on to this were dancers at Sunnyvale Cheetahs, "Private Clubs".

SJG

Jimmy Hendrix, Sweden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKhG6Ll8…

You can fuck anywhere. When I was a teenager I fucked girls behind dumpsters. In apartment stairwells . Laundry rooms. Parks. Parking garages. As women get older they get more picky about where they fuck. But I've had sex at races. Bar restrooms . An alley or 2.

Sex is everywhere in the US.

But they aren't in stripper shoes and makeup. You didn't get to select them for others lined up, and then move on them.

Your point is well taken, and I value it, but there are legitimate reasons why we have strip clubs, and there are legitimate reasons why we need something which goes beyond that.

SJG

ICEE, your point is well taken. But there are things juveniles can get away with that others best not try.

And then as you say, when women get older they do get more picky.

But there are still things which strip clubs offer which are better. This is why being in one, say DV in San Francisco, feels like being a kid in a candy store. But that kind of a club is more of a visual head trip, and it is designed to drain your wallet. AMPs are often better, especially the San Francisco ones.

But I still say we should be able to have something much better, as good as TJ, and as good as the very best of our underground circuit.

You started the thread about which is better, civvies or strippers. I say it is strippers, but this is not only in the club, or only short term.

SJG

GLADY KNIGHT & THE PIPS-LIVE IN CONCERT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl_5YUO5…

But you're viewing it as p4p being better than regular sex

" p4p being better than regular sex"

Not necessarily. More I am saying that it is all "regular sex", it is just sex. How much you are able to get under a girl's skin, and how much you want to be seeing her later on outside, is really just between you and she.

If you want something better than a strip club, that the women know that they can get money will be a big help. Some people from the Swingers Culture told me that if the let in more than just a few single men they will have problems. There are far more men who would want that than there are women.

So where are there lots of hot looking women? Places where they can get money.

The main ones who are not getting money, or who don't have their sites set on something bigger, are adolescents being supported by their parents.

The women at our civvie nightclubs are nice looking. But they are still not as much of a visual bombshell as are the girls at DV Centerfolds. The reason for this is the high heels and makeup, the extreme hair, and the slut uniforms.

And most of the time a civvie nightclub is designed to prevent on site sex, because of public sex and lewd conduct laws, and because of concerns about safety and liability.

So the other alternative is the private event.

SJG

Deep purple live in New York 1973, Strange Kind of Woman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmhTkoDY…

I don't know if these are the same as what s88 was posting about:
https://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=pr…

SJG

talks about such parties
http://www.usasexguide.nl/forum/showthre…

Private parties seem to be the way, Where The Party Never Sleeps
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/11/style…

https://www.trycobble.com/guide/best-nsf…

Underground NYC Sex Clubs
https://www.thrillist.com/travel/10-offb…

Illicit Fetish Parties
https://nypost.com/2019/08/10/inside-the…

**** this looks like it probably is about the stuff s88 posted about
Inside New York’s Underground Lap Dance Parties
https://www.ns-fw.com/nsfwarchive/2016/2…

"Dungeon Alley” or “Dungeon District” is the nickname (cited in print since 2007) for a roughly 20-block area of Manhattan (between Chelsea and Midtown) that caters to the sex trade.
https://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new…

FETISH FRIDAYS AT KINEMATICS, NEW YORK
https://www.clubplanet.com/Venues/203107…

Fetish Affairs
https://fetishaffairs.com/

Fetish.com
https://www.fetish.com/lp/fetish_us/?off…

SJG

The relationship dynamic between a hooker and customer and girl who just wants to fuck is completely different. Buying a sex act vs exploring each other's bodies...enjoying your time

ICEE, with all due respect, you are saying the same thing over and over on multiple threads.

My position is that the women who work in P4P are not different from other women, except that they are generally more sexualized and more open.

As far as what kind of relationship you have with her, that is between you and she.

And my advice has always been to get women from P4P venues off script starting with your first words to her.

The fact that she is in a P4P venue and accepting money does not mean that that is all she is.

But also with civvies, you would do well to not take them completely at face value either.

Any kind of intimate relationship will always be challenged. This is just how our world is.

This is also something my organization is being designed to address.

SJG

When you date strippers they want the same things in relationships that civvies do.

When you pay to fuck thats just that. Its a different dynamic unless you're paying for a gfe. But thats just an illusion

ICEY, Never said that any kind of intimate relationship would be easy. Its just the way our world, Neo-Liberal Capitalism has become.

But consider this, what is the Civvie offering?

If she has had few sex partners, then she can credibly offer strict monogamy.

"You can own my vagina."

But there will be a price. And to see what this is, you can't look between her legs. You have to look between her ears.

You posted about fucking girls behind dumpsters, and in bathrooms. Well why wasn't she doing that?

Its because she is a conservative thinking girl, she lives for social approval, for parent pleasing, and for compliance with normative social standards.

She does not see her own sexuality as revolutionary. She does not want to overturn the established order.

So the price then is that you have to also live by these same conservative and conformist standards. If you don't expect WWIII in your own home.

I have had my fill of such girls, the last one having to be removed by a court.

With a stripper on the otherhand, she may be an erotic revolutionary. The relationship you develop with her will always be new territory. But I say it is worth the effort and the risk.

The other way I know is a dead end.

SJG

Amy Winehouse & Paul Weller - I Heard It Through The Grapevine (Live at Jools Holland, 2006) [HD]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p9DpNrH…

You're talking extremes. It's about compromise and exploration. Growing together. Unless she's a religious nutjob women are open if they're really into you.

I think p4p is a dead end. The most you can hope for is a gfe. Its possible yo fste hoes and nothing wrong with it. But if it starts out as p4p it's very rare that the dynamic will change.

The one thing though is that prostitutes do settle for customers when he meets all of her needs and she wants a way out.

I'm amazed at SJG's skill at using his toe to type on a keyboard. This is years of practice while wearing a straight jacket. Its much easier for the institution to give him a keyboard instead of a grease pencil. Its a bitch to clean those padded walls.

"Unless she's a religious nutjob women are open"

Well, there are all kinds of extremist thinking around, including in women. Religion is not the only kind. Lots of women are sexual contras, usually yuppies.

As far as P4P, just because you meet and engage with a woman in that kind of a setting, this does not mean that you cannot quickly be on more personal terms with her, very personal terms. Usually the women are very eager for this.

And I thought about this today. About two years ago I saw a young women in a civvie night club. She was wearing a see through chemise, and quite short, and no bra underneath. Great!

But to really appreciate that, you want to be able to move on her right then. Now phone numbers and no automobile rides.

But sex in any retail business constitutes a crime, public sex or lewdness. Anywhere, bathrooms, anywhere.

There are literary and cinematic accounts of such sex in discos, but this is more in the 70's. In the 80's a new generation of sexual contras came to power and laws and enforcement policies were tightened. San Jose had a special focus on getting rid of "Sex Oriented Businesses", and there are ordinances which apply no where else except night clubs.

If such sex was going on, the club would be in trouble, and that can be a civil enforcement, or even an administrative enforcement. This last is the toughest, guilty until you can hire a lawyer and get before a judge and prove yourself innocent.

But this club was actually suburban, and stand alone building. I had already noticed that compared with the downtown, this place was much better for getting from the car to the front door. In that place, it would be really nice to have a small motorhome in the parking lot.

But this girl was not typical of the other girls in that club. As I had commented once to the manager, "They look like they have dressed for a Rotary Club meeting."

Now this girl could have danced in an upscale strip club. But her manner of dress still was not equal to such clubs.

In such clubs, the girls tend to be in competition. I have seen new ones come in, and it takes them a while to learn.

Its the higher heels, the more extreme hair, and the more extreme makeup.

They are disarming. They can approach a PL and say, "Wanna dance?", and all he can do is pull out his wallet.

They speak to something very primal. I think it is because they are competing to be able to disarm guys. I think Deja Vu is a clever name, because being around the women really does something to you.

Okay, but the way they run their clubs, with no competition, with clip joint tactics ( forcing the action into the back rooms ), and with the public sex and lewdness laws, is far from optimal.

Once it is instead a private party, all of these legal constraints and the clip joint tactics vanish. And then the zoning laws vanish, and so do much of the start up costs.

SJG

Sex right then and there happens. In a club setting underground house music or Latin house parties. But drugs are usually involved.

And sometimes you get lucky. I've had sex in public with girls I just met. Usually outside of bars or clubs. One time a girl I met at Ralph's.

It just depends on the chemistry.

But no it isn't an everyday thing.

But prostitution isn't about sex its about the money for her. And most have pimps. A gfe is just acting.

Well this place was not at all underground. Public sex is not the norm because it is illegal, so it will be harder to make it happen.

But the legal model pioneered by swingers clubs is completely conducive to instant sex within their parties.

And lots of women are very happy to be having sex with all sorts of guys and they are happy to be taking in money that way. It is how they pay their bills.

You don't want them to end up working in Finance, Insurance, or Real Estate, not when they could be erotic artists.

SJG

Women can dress sexy at the level of strippers when it is to be in private space. Civvie night clubs are not so suited to that.

SJG

Again younjust keep describing brothels. In which case you can easily visit them in the US or aborad.

Our laws make it very hard for anything like a brothel to operate. So what happens is clandestine.

As it stands today though, the strip club format, a retail business, is probably not the best. Better to go with the private event, private party format. That way you get around zoning and public sex and lewdness laws. This is the legal model pioneered by Swinger's Clubs, but it can be used in ways which are still much different from them.

SJG

Private parties with hookers exist. You can easily book a hooker to come over. And there are nevada brothels. What you're talking about already exists.

The legalities and the scope of such parties is not now known to me. I do mostly know of this long running one in NYC.

Understanding the legalities is important.

SJG

Prostitution is illegal no matter how you look at it.

There are also some underground clubs in Cincinnati but I've only heard about it never been to one. The stingers clubs are everywhere now and are getting more popular. A dancer I know has gone to one in Dayton by herself and hussled for tricks there.

Swingers darn spell check !

"Prostitution is illegal no matter how you look at it."

But it is also a kind of a law which is always difficult to enforce. And in some situations it really will be impossible to enforce.

Its not so much what the words of the statute say, its how courts have decided things, and it is also what current prosecutorial practices are. As it is, only in the very bottom end of the market is there really ever much chance of enforcement.

SJG

Zepparella - Ramble On (Bing Lounge)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Eakzxm…

If LE could have its way, and some locals could have their way, they would enforce on all sorts of things. Its just that there is so much precedent for that never being enforced on. Like for example DFKing, no one has ever enforced on that. Sure like in high school, Public Display of Affection, but not as a crime.

Okay, but in Atlanta, it sounds like at this Follies the contentious thing is front room FIV. That is because of the law against Public Sex and Lewd Conduct.

Jestrite, thanks for that info. A private club or party gets you around the public sex and lew conduct law, and it gets you around zoning. And it is zoning which is stopping people from opening new clubs.

And then @s88 posted about this party in NYC, they are calling it "Lapdance and Fetish". Well, in NYC you may be able to say you have lapdancing and that dancers are getting tips, and LE won't try to do anything about it. Its their legal precedents, and just what it is practical for them to enforce.

Now Lapdancing usually means less than FS and less than Extras. But in practice it could be anything. And if you say lapdancing and getting tips, then that provides cover for anything.

So it lets things happen that would be a problem in strip clubs and civvie night clubs.

The idea is not to get around the prostitution law because you don't need to, as in so many situations it is impossible to enforce.

The idea is to get around zoning and around the public sex and lewd conduct laws.

And then overhead costs are lower if you have a shared facility. And the women are likely to really open up and let loose when they know there is at least a little bit of screening on the guests. And when you don't have alcohol and you do have somewhere a file with people's id, there are less likely to be any really serious problems. You don't need thug bouncers who make a negative vibe. You just need Care Bears.

But knowing all the details of the legalities is important. The old Swinger's Club model was worked out by lawyers, and I am sure that the details for these newer style clubs have also been worked out by lawyers.

And Icey, you keep emphasizing that prostitution is illegal. Well in such a case, who do you think should be busted? And if the girl was not getting money, would that make it okay? Why is the money such a big deal. They are just giving guys what they want, so why is there something wrong with that?

SJG


Zepparella Dazed and Confused
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Cfoloqt…

Underground promoters don't care about legalities they care about short term profits and getting a good reputation. Over time most get busted at some point.

If you're not exchanging money for sex it isn't prostitution.

The legality isn't worth debating . It's illegal.

But you can do it if you have the money for it. You can always buy a party with hookers or pay to go to one.

If you want a legit brothel. Nevada is the only option in the US.

I have never said anything about a brothel, not one where the operators ever handle the women's money.

But in many situations the prostitution law is just about impossible to enforce.

And this is the real law, not some theoretical abstract principle, but what is actually enforceable and enforced.

SJG

They pay a house fee to work private parties like the ones you deacribe. So yeah they handle money.

Whether a law is enforced or not depends on circumstance and budgeting.

If you want to engage in it then you can though. The options are there.

ICEE, the only reason I have even raised the issue is merely that I think we need to come up with something else to replace strip clubs.

1. They are too tame by todays standards. Women on the whole fuck more than they did.

2. Strip club is a retail business, so it will always be operating under the public sex and lewdness prohibition law, and this is vastly easier to enforce than the prostitution law.

3. To get under a girl's skin, you really do best to engage with her right where you can first approach her, and were being in some public vies provides an initial safety limit. So this means front room, stage side, etc.

4. The prostitution law is only regularly enforced in a few types of venues. In private space it usually is not. It is more the marketing of it which gets people agitated and makes them twist the arm of LE. I mean SF has the Power Exchange. There is no way to know what money is being exchanged in there. But no one really cares.

The way I suggest is the most cautious. Only charge an entrance fee, the same for both women and men. Don't charge for spaces. I would not even charge for the no alcohol refreshments.

I would not allow any alcohol. It does not help and it can create problems.

I want it to be as good as the TJ Honk Kong Bar, and as good as the best our underground circuit with FR FS was.

At something built on the swinger's club model, the more people want to do in the front room the better.

And ICEE, the law is not just the words of a legislative act on paper, it is how courts have decided on it, how it can practically be enforce, and how it is enforced.

For example, in CA we have lots of sex surrogates. The people who do this say that just a little bit of it is real sex. Okay, but some people would say to enforce. And you could never get the state legislature to pass anything to authorize it. But our state AG Camille Harris said that so long as they have some kind of licensing, that she would not enforce. So that handled it.

There are lots and lots of situations where what is happening could be considered prostitution, but it still would be so hard to enforce that it does not happen.

Based on what s88 has posted about, it looks like in NYC you can have lap dancers at private parties, and they probably getting tips, and there will be no enforcement. Well, that provides adequate cover for everything.

In NYC it is like this. Here in South Bay, at advertised strip clubs no way. They guy who started Cheetah's, then Kit Kat Club, tried it. There was an investigation and people were arrested and prosecuted. I do not know if our DA's office has lightened up. Still seem pretty tough.

But it is all relative. Most prostitution busts today still involve defendants pleading guilty to avoid public humiliation. They often still involve entrapment. Sure, this is unlawful. But if the defendant is going to plead guilty, the it still goes on.

Guy here posted about getting busted in NYC, and it sounded like entrapment.

At one San Mateo County strip club they did a long and thorough investigation, so thorough that LE was bringing its own condoms.

Most of the time, LE is the really cooked party in this stuff.

SJG


War Pigs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3b6SGoN…

There are private parties in CA as well. And anything goes.

Prostitution is legal in Mexico. Uts a big difference.

And it certainly seems like there is some we need to learn from Mexico. And they say that Laura Esquivel's "Like Water For Chocolate" heralds the beginning of Mexican feminism. Prostitution is built right into it, and into the 1910 Revolution. The second sister Gertrudis gets initiated in a rail box car. In the film they show her moving about in the car, sensing the geometric bounds of the coming event which will change her life. Then they show the line of men assembled outside. And then, like so many larger than life women in history, she becomes commanding general for the Revolutionary Army.

Esquivel is part of AMLO's Social Democratic Party, and she is on the City Council for Mexico City.



About our strip clubs, one thing I see as important is this, See - Want - Get, this has to be primary. It is about how the women dress and paint up, and the experience of being able to move on one and make it happen with her. But our strip clubs fail on the Get. OTC, automobiles, that is not the same. Need it to be right there, ITC.

So at these private parties it will be like that. It can even be front room. The Republican Swingers got this right. The more front room action the more that loosens everyone else up. Some people go just to watch and be watched.

And if the people know each other, it will be pretty gentile. And if the people know each other, that will push prosecution further into the realm of the impossible.

The legal conditions when strip clubs started in San Francisco are not the same as they were. A new generation of sexual contras has imposed new ordinances. These are not substantively different from ones courts have struck down. But today there is not the will to defy the laws and to challenge them in court.

Some of it is the prohibitive real estate prices. And then it is McStripClub. Now to be fair to them, they say that they are keeping clubs open which would otherwise be closed. But they are also clear that their job is to get the maximum return for their investors. They aren't in business to take avoidable risks, and they cater to the mainstream strip club goers. And they have said that this is college groups and bachelor parties, stuff like that.

We need to have venues which are easy to open and could be considered expendable. These might not be very big. They might use AMP spaces. Or they might use shared spaces, party spaces, to cut down on costs.

SJG

Rainbow - Stone Cold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hByGwgm_…

See want get itc basically describes a brothel setting.

No shit ICEY. Some of our strip clubs have been like that, and some still are.

And as Subraman explained, strippers are the crème de la crème of the sex industry.

The problem is that new clubs are not being opened, clubs are being closed. And the retail compliance model subjects the club to zoning laws and to laws against sex and lewd conduct. And then a problem has developed of concentrated ownership and a lack of competition, and clip joint management tactics.

The private party compliance model offers I believe, a better result. And so long as one has their ducks lined up from the start, good legal advice, then there really won't be problems with LE. Some laws are routinely overlooked in situations which are not conducive to enforcement.

SJG

Stone Cold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hByGwgm_…

Street of Dreams
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxKZPytR…

Rainbow - I Surrender
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMmMqfQZ…

Not really. If your concrrn is safety then nothing beats a legal brothel with itc at a strip club coming in second.

Private underground parties with hookers offer you zero protection and no guarantees of anything.

Legally you're engaging in solicitation regardless.

Not so, the only legal brothels in the US are in NV, and those are horrible. None of the decriminalization advocates want that. And you don't want to handle the money or other wise have knwledge of things you don't need to know about.

And a party with hookers, well that is an interpretation. People do all kinds of things which might be outside the law, but it is not visible, and it is in a situation where it is not practical to enforce.

And one of the reasons LE does not go after it, is it is private, between the woman and the man, and so no one else could be accused of solicitation. ANd then if one of the two is a cop, that is probably entrapment.

Hard for LE to get in. Harder if the people really known each other.

And I learned in AMPs to treat the woman as I would any other woman. The usually means coming on to her gently and initiating DFKing. Then usually she is so blown away that everything just falls into place. No different at a private party. And if the people know each other, all the more so.

If ever questioned, "She is my GF." Prostitution enforcement only works because people are scared of public humiliation, and so they plead guilty.

Girl who worked AAMP's in the UK explained that to me. They have labor cops who try to enforce. If they come, she just tells the guy her real name, as written on her passport.

Usually the only really crooked people in such situations are the cops.

Some women are extremely happy to live as erotic artists, erotic dancers, erotic priestesses.

Deep Purple - Perfect Strangers (Official Video) (look at these cars, 928, MBZ, Rolls Royce)( one of the reasons this sounds so good is the vocalist)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ_kez7W…

Ignorance of th law isn't a viable defense. Snd what if scenarios don't matter.

And in court it's about proving intent. You don't have to actually be caught engaging in it.

But without evidence there is no way of arguing intent.

SJG

So Jestrite, these underground clubs in Cincinnati and Dayton,

OH
https://www.swinglifestyle.com/swingers/…

and this frictionpartys, sounds like Lap Dancing.

https://frictionparties.com/sessions/new

Sounds like they want couples, but you never really know.

Don't know if the ones you mention are listed. But it does sound like the women are somehow getting money, maybe just handed to them.

Usually at such a club they are able to let in single men. If women are not getting money, then they probably have to severely limit the single men.

SJG

https://www.we-vibe.com/us/sync?sscid=81…

SJG

https://w3.sdc.com/v1/signup.php?ref=807…

https://www.kasidie.com/?referredby=Fric…

*******************

Some local swingers clubs have at time had "strippers" or "lap dancers" and it did seem like these women were getting money."

SJG

A cops word or any body cam footage is enough to prove intent. And by prove I mean simply cast doubt on there not being intent.

Some swingers clubs have dancers and hostesses and they get tips. I've seen some dancers hoe at swingers clubs.

Swingers parties are for swingers....


Just go to a party and see for yourself

But there can't be any cops word about conversations they are not privy to. And body cam footage will never show anything which establishes crime.

There are lots of laws which are just not enforceable in many situations. Really this is how we make progress.

SJG

A cop says he busted you for solicitation. He has body cam footage of you and a known prostitute. That's enough for a prosecutor to argue intent.

You can defend yourself saying there's no evidence but they're not arguing evidence

Lots of talk above about night club women versus strippers, and what is the difference?

Well at the upscale show clubs the women can blow your mind. The night club women are not that extreme. What is the difference?

Well if you talk to civvie women, they usually will talk about not wanting to look Low Class, Trashy, Cheap, or Slutty.

This is how they think, they dress to earn the approval of other women.

Well with on duty strippers it is not like that. They want to be extreme blow your mind sex objects. They don't care about the approval of other women, all they care about is what they are able to do to men. They want to be able to approach a guy and completely disarm him, and just hoover out his wallet.

So it is not just the extreme hair, and the extreme makeup and heels, it is also the simple fact that they are in competition with each other.

And that is what you feel, not the specific lines they are crossing, but the fact that they are in competition with each other.

And so this gets to why Deja Vu is such a clever name. In one of their clubs the women are coming at you and it is entirely different from being anywhere else. It does make you feel something buried deep within. It must go back to the public orgies, or the temples, of pagan societies, or maybe even back to primitive societies.

It is not the clothes they take off, it is the extreme hair, and the extreme makeup and heels they put on. And it is not the specific lines they are crossing, it is just the fact that they are going the limit and in competition with each other.

SJG

Yeah strippers sell a fantasy

Well at the type of venue I am describing here it is more than just a visual fantasy.

SJG

Brothels in Nevada have that.

Negative. They have NV laws which prevent front room makeout sessions and much more. That neutralizes the best way of getting under a girl's skin.

DV tried to make Pahrump as good as TJ. It was these stupid NV laws which got in the way. So they shifted their attention to TJ.

SJG

so it seems like a private party, running on the legal compliance model developed by swingers clubs is the way. Maybe initially a rotating location and so no signage. But eventually going to various forms of advertising and eventually a fixed location. I would say "members" not just "invited guests". Or maybe they have to be both. But eventually you want to go to fixed location(s) and regular hours. But they need to electronically contact for an invite. But that is a long way out there.

Legal experts knowledgeable in the development of the Swinger's Club model would be helpful, as well as where local LE sees the trigger points. In any place there are things which they will let go on and not try to interdict.

And the in San Francisco, Chesa Boudin says he will not prosecute anything which amounts to sex between consenting adults.

March 31, 2021
https://www.ebar.com/news/news//303497

Recall fails to qualify for ballot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JILqUiK0…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9GKjVJ-…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3x4roSC…

3 goals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNbzJ_T4…

SJG

Decriminalize in CA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWgomHc…

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_q…

I think the real point of a frmos to a hoe is to check if you're le. Then she does you.

Did you listen to the videos? They're saying the goal of decriminalization is to provide help social workers and viable exit strategies for hookers. The opposite of promoting p4p

No, FRMOS is not the norm in strip clubs or in AMPs. When it happens the women are surprised. Mostly it just softens them up, lets them know that I like them. It definitely gets them off script.

Yes, some Uplifters focus on reforming prostitutes, but those advocating decriminalization just want to get the cops out of their hair.

SJG

No listen to the videos you posted. The premise is helping hoes.

A frmos is still a way to show her you're not le.... it would scare most women in other contexts. Unless they show signs of inviting it

They have to be softened up with charm before a MOS.

Some argue on the premise of helping hoes but the real advocates are not talking about any such "help"

Chesa Boudin wants to leave them alone.

SJG

Just letting it be won't happen. Turning a blind eye to certain crimes is a recipe for disaster.

Reality isn't what if scenarios

Except that people want that, they want certain laws lifted.

People in CA tried to get the State Supreme Court to strike the prostitution law down on a 1st Amendment challenge. That did not happen, but many people want it lifted. And fact is, there are all kinds of things going on, like at private parties, where such enforcement is for all practical purposed impossible.

Even in strip clubs it is a very hard area to enforce. When there is enforcement it is over other things.

Consenting adults should not be branded as criminals just for fucking each other.

SJG

Neil Young
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvtdbfI1…

Well worth listening to:

Interesting talk, Aug 10, San Francisco DA Chesa Boudin's 3 MOST CRITICAL Goals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNbzJ_T4…

Recall Campaign on Chesa Boudin, March 10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TF4lv_px…

https://ballotpedia.org/Chesa_Boudin_rec…

Recall against Chesa Boudin fails
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JILqUiK0…

https://sfist.com/2021/08/11/original-re…

That won't happen. Any kind of legal reform won't be an unregulated free for all.

Prostitution is unconstitutional coz it falls under illicit labor. It has nothing to do with the 1st amendment.

And it's not consensual sex. Illicit activities aren't legally consensual.

Underground sex parties
https://www.thrillist.com/lifestyle/new-…

underground sex clubs, due to COVID
https://www.tmz.com/2020/12/10/undergrou…

monthly NYC sex party
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/swingers-…

NYC police closed one
https://thegrio.com/2020/11/23/new-york-…

NYC hottest sex parties
https://thegrio.com/2020/11/23/new-york-…

SJG

I know about sex parties. That's irrelevant to prostitution

You insinuate they're all illegal brothels

NO, I post the articles in order to read them. And in many situations it is impossible for LE to enforce any such laws.

SJG

This Plato's Retreat in NYC has run for many decades

https://www.ozy.com/true-and-stories/pla…

SJG

NYC closes down on party, organizers facing big fines, but this might be over COVID violations.

https://thegrio.com/2020/11/23/new-york-…

SJG

Swingers parties aren't p4p

Well traditional swingers parties aren't. But that legal compliance model is being used by some to let there be dancers who do do P4P.

I first learned about this from local dancers at Cheetah's Sunnyvale, what they called "Private Clubs".

The women who do P4P dates are still just ordinary women, just more sexualized, faster moving.

SJG

Mexico City

http://doxyspotting.com/?p=70423

http://doxyspotting.com/busty-sexworker-…

http://doxyspotting.com/doubleshot-for-t…

http://doxyspotting.com/?p=88191

http://doxyspotting.com/?p=88121

http://doxyspotting.com/?p=93507

King Crimson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OvW8Z7k…

Illegal parties with hookers aren't anything new. I've said that already.

Well, these new parties which have sprung up seem to be like the one famous one in NYC. People don't see it as crime, its just like a strip club, but as it is a private space there is no legal prohibition on sex or lewd conduct.

Where you have the law against prostitution being enforced, it really is the cops who are the crooks. It is all a really dirty area of policing. Never clean or legitimate busts.

SJG

They're common and have always been around. They became very popular in California during the lovkdowns.

And they're illegal everywhere and get busted when found out about but still go on

Im so confused, when did SJG come out of hiding? And was there an explanation for what he was up to? I just assumed this was a parody account until I saw the amount of messages and join date

ICEE, this NYC party started and has been posted about here, before he COVID lockdown. I think what makes it different from other things is that it is a recurring event. So though it is not a retail strip club, many people will be using it as though it were. And this jibes with what local dancers had told me, "There are a lot of private clubs."

It uses the legal compliance model of the Republican Wife Swappers, because so long as it is consensual, there event involve are very conducive to groping. About the only way they can do that is in private space.

Now LE can close a private party for zillions of lawful reasons. But enforcing the prostitution law is always extremely difficult. The vast majority of busts either involve entrapment, or there really never was any evidence. If defended by aggressive private counsel, the cops and DA would be laughed out of the court room. They only get conviction because the parties are frightened of public humiliation and so they plead guilty.

A lawful prostitution bust at such a private party is just about impossible. And how does it look, what are our big brave police officers spending their time doing?


SJG

Roxanne, 2008, my favorite version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lQlajFq…

These parties are nothing new. And they get busted. Entrapment is extremely rare and difficult to prove. Mostly it's money laundering and human trafficking that does them in.

We must defend our constitution. A defendant does not need to prove anything. The burden of proof is on the prosecution.

I would never say that a party operator should handle anything beyond admission fees. And the human trafficking argument is bullshit.

An on duty police officer is never allowed to engage in any sex acts.

Lots of people do things which some moralists would like to criminalize. But there are practical limits as to what legal interpretations can be enforced, and enforced in what situations.

Some private parties are more private than others, and the more the people know each other, the harder it would be to make a prostitution allegation stick.

SJG

That doesn't say anything. It doesn't affect their legality

The law is only what can be enforced and what is enforced. So long as we adhere to the Constitution and keep the burden of proof on the prosecution, then we are much freer in what we can do.

SJG

Seven Nation Army
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J2QdDbe…

No ignorance of the law isn't a defense and an unreported crime is still a crime. Most courts favor prosecutors

There are always limits as to what kinds of interpretations are actually enforced.

Here with CA strip clubs the new problem is AB-5. Strip clubs will not be able to operate under that.

The historic issues are just the prostitution law and the public sex and lewd conduct law. What might make sense on kind of an abstract level will be much more restrictive than what actually goes on. But how much can go on and still evade problems, this is still an open and always changing issue.

SJG

So as it stands today, I am convinced that Strip Clubs, Hostess Dancing, and AMPs, will not be able to function under AB-5, making everyone an employee.

And then AMPS have already been screwed up by the Licensing of Therapists.

AB-5 is not enforced by the government, it is enforced by former workers suing for retroactive reclassification. And this has been going on for 30 years in strip clubs. And usually in Labor Law CA has been a bellwether state. So it will get like this other places. AMPs, being ethic may be the last places to hold out, but the therapist licensing has already screwed them up.

So we need to figure some other way. I say this other way is the Membership Club model, where the men and the women are all members. Massage will be fine, just so long as you don't call it that or directly charge money for it. Stripping, Lingerie Modelling, Hostess Dancing, all fine, just don't have knowledge of any cash flows.

I say that we need to do this. It also makes it a nice See-Want-Get situation.

SJG

Lady Love (2007 Remaster)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41jn94hf…

So a social club that's a front laundering prostitution money. It's not legal.

The law is not what it says on paper, it is what can be practically enforced, and what is enforced.

The law against prostitution has always been one of the most controversial, and it is violated all the time in lots of different venues.

The women who do this, on the whole, are much more fun than civvies.

Most of the time it is LE who are the most underhanded and unethical.

SJG

The Lion Sleeps Tonight The Tokens TRUE Stereo HiQ Hybrid JARichardsFilm 720p
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgI4DdIN…

Ignorance of the law isn't a viable defense.


Hookers only do it for money

"
Hookers only do it for money
"

That is a very unrealistic appraisal of women.

SJG

I think more and more, young women who are not born rich, see nothing in doing pay 4 play. It really is not much different from expecting a car keys and wallet date. It is just more practical.

Approached in a reasonable manner, women love to be kissed, love to be fucked, and love to be given money. Overall they want more of these things, not less.

So to say that one of them is paying for the others, is just a misrepresentation.

SJG

Thinking hookers don't fuck for the money is out of touch with reality

Thinking that they are something other than ordinary women is to be completely out of touch with the women.

SJG

No when they work they're hookers . If you pay her you're just a client

^^^^^ That is a total misunderstanding of women.

SJG

No it's the truth. Hookers fuck for money. If you're paying a hooker for sex you're just her customer.

You have no understanding of what women are like.

SJG

I understand women very well.

Youre saying that paying a hooker is the same as dating a woman. And that a p4p relationship with a hooker or dancer is the same as a relationship not contingent on payment. And that's not true.

And no, that is not what I am saying. Generally if you see her once, she will want an outside relationship, like immediately.

As far as continuing to give her money, it kinda depends on how much you have, relative to how much she has. And there are otherways of "looking after her" which might not involved directly handing her cash.

SJG

She wants you to see her again and pay her.

You can seduce a hooker but not by being a customer

ICEY, you keep saying the same thing over and over. You are turning into an idiot.

SJG

^^^^ What she wants from me is far far more than what she can offer in a session. They are always like this.

SJG

You keep repeating that sex with a hooker isn't contingent on you paying her so you'll get the same reply.

I didn't say that they would do sex for free, at least not right off.

But free sex really should not be the objective.

With more people, what the girl wants is far more than what he is able to offer. And some guys irritate them by treating them like prostitutes, as though money buys them. So that jinxs that.

Most of the time the women are ready for instant civilianization. The men, they just can't offer it, so they pay them to go away.

https://tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=7649…

SJG

You don't get the fact that hookers have sex for money.

You just keep describing a gfe

And of course free sex is the objective of any kind of seduction.

Spending money on a girl is different from spending it for her

Now you'll say it's money for sex right away and so you can move to a gfe right away coz a hooker stays in character when you pay

No, most of the time the women want to be civilianized. They want far more than what the men are offering. They don't do Girl Friend Experience, they do Girl Friend Auditions.

SJG

They only end up with customers if they're trying to quit.

And that is why they really like it when someone treats them as they would any other woman.

SJG

Most see it as a weakness to exploit for profit. But yeah if they want to quit many Wil use a man as an option to leave their lifestyle

Most of them, vast majority, can easily be gotten off script and completely softened up.

SJG

They can but not when you have a p4p relationship

ICEE if you are finding women who don't really want to know you, but just want to siphon money up out of your pocket, then do them and yourself a big favor and stay away from them.

But no not assume that things are like that for me, or for anyone else.

SJG

I don't go for girls like that.

Hookers are only with men coz they're paid. Is that so hard to understand. She wouldn't be there if you didn't pay.

Don't assume that I am naïve or ignorant in dealing with women. Really, you should be worrying about yourself.

SJG

You portray it as something it's not. That puts you at a vulnerable disadvantage.

ICEE, this entire area is your problem, not mine. I see eye to eye with women very easily, I see beyond the surface and so do they.

SJG

Talking about these new private clubs in NYC

http://www.saintvenustheater.com/

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/01/nyreg…

This is right at the waterfront, shown on map
https://www.lidoroom.com/

https://www.footfetishnyc.com/

SJG

https://tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=2075…

SJG

You're into gfe but don't call it that.

No, a problem engaging and communicating with the women seems to be your problem.

SJG

I know how to make connections with strippers and hoes. Its not done by being a customer. When you pay for sex it automatically puts you in a different category you won't get out of. The point is to make a connection and her wanting sex with you. Its a different dynamic

You are reading stuff into my posts which just does not apply. You are turning into quite a troll.

SJG

I'm stating the obvious but keep up those paid girlfriend auditions

No ICEY, you long ago gone beyond the point where it is worth it for me to respond to you. The stuff you are reading into my posts is just trolling.

SJG

No. you just create fantasies around denying p4p is p4p and just that . Keep repeating yourself you'll get the same answer

ICEY you don't even hear what I say. So really, I don't want any answers from you.

SJG

I hear what you say. The problem is you want to believe what you say.

People are looking to new legal models. In part it is due to COVID. In part it is due to CA AB5.

Remember, strip clubs and hostess dancing clubs are businesses, they depend upon regular cash flows.

SJG

People want more than what our strip clubs have been.

Expect See-Want-Get, plus a TLN offering.

It can be had with this private party model.

SJG

People want a freer engagement, easy going with the dolled up hotties:

https://tuscl.net/photo.php?id=1456

SJG

Message just sent to an executive for a huge US strip club chain:

Adelitas Review
https://tuscl.net/review.php?id=376139

https://tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=7673…

This is the way it should be, and not just in Mexico, but also in the US. We are going to make it this way because we won't accept anything less.

SJG

ESS JAY GEE

This seems to have converted to a membership club, and changed its address. Because of this I think the 2019 reviews would not be relevant.

The Mouse's Ear
1408 E Main St
Johnson City, TN 37601

https://tuscl.net/listing.php?id=3297

Last Review Aug 2019
BYOB

https://www.facebook.com/MousesEarJC/

https://www.facebook.com/MousesEarJC/pho…

https://www.facebook.com/MousesEarJC/pho…

TN has very restrictive state wide laws, of course ruining the front room friendliness. But this private party model gets them out of this. It is no longer a strip club because it is no longer a retail business.

I think this membership club/private party model has got to be the future of CA clubs!

Could go from Birmingham or Atlanta to Chattanooga, to Knoxville or Sevierville, then to Johnson City, then to Roanoke, then somehow to Charlottesville, Richmond, DC and Baltimore, then Philadelphia and then New York City

Because this is BYOB it almost has to be a membership club. Only a retail business can have a liquor license. And a place with a liquor license cannot allow BYOB. A retail place with no liquor license cannot allow BYOB. It has to be a private party. So probably it is awesome!

SJG

collar
https://tuscl.net/photo.php?id=9342

This description of Adelita's, this is what we should have in the US right now!
https://tuscl.net/review.php?id=380956

If we go to the private party model, we can get it!

SJG

Again, Chicago Club:
https://tuscl.net/review.php?id=379841

This is what we should have, and this is what we can have by going to the private party model.

SJG

Right now, Deja Vu is running San Francisco. Zoning laws make it impossible to open more clubs. So all they have to do now is keep dropping day shifts and keep closing clubs, in order to minimize overhead and maximize the return for their investors.

And then AB-5 screws over the gig economy, and we still have laws against public sex and lewd conduct which screw up the front rooms. The back room action totally depends upon that too.

So we have to find some other way, and the private party model is it.

But we need the software, the work of lawyers, the paper work, the policies and rules, and anything people have to sign. We need to have our duck in order for when we deal with LE, and for when we deal with landlords.

SJG

Angles in WV, and one of the women in the dancer directory is there:
https://tuscl.net/listing.php?id=4122

Looks like in the post-Covid reopening, they converted from a retail business to a membership / private party club. That means that there are a whole lot of regs which no longer apply, and that there isn't much else that is practical to enforce.

Should be as good as TJ, Front Room Make Out and Feel Up Sessions and then no limits on the back room or on immediate OTC.

I think that this is the future for the entire country, and especially for building a Post-Deja Vu San Francisco.

SJG