Lol at this bullshit. Watch how regulation is going to kill an industry. Part of the whole strip club appeal has got to be walking out with $800 in cash. Might get hard to keep good talent in your club. This to me is less about strip clubs and more about what’s wrong with California and why people are fleeing.
From what I’ve gathered, California clubs have been micromanagers for a long time—even before the employee status change. There’s a reason these lawsuits that led to the suits happened disproportionately over there, and not so much in places like (for example) Texas. If I were to guess, it’s because that kind of behavior is the general Cali MO anyways.
Unless California is amazingly consistent, I’m sure reality will kick in and a lot of this stuff will get ignored. Such as girls just paying the dance quotas (effectively, house fees) to the trackers anyways.
But it’s a shame. Driving through that state, it does seem like a really beautiful place. But it will have to be black balled and I worry more about a precedent being set for nationwide.
===> "There’s a reason these lawsuits that led to the suits happened disproportionately over there, and not so much in places like (for example) Texas. "
Yes there is, but perhaps not for the reasons you think. The reasons are as much philosophical as anything else. The politicos and the judges simply believe that gig economy pay works to the detriment of the recipients and that they are protecting workers. The fact that many of the workers who do this disagree is irrelevant to the Nanny State types that run the place..
So CA politicians pass laws broadly defining employee and CA courts broadly interpret those laws, which made it easy for ex-dancers to sue for one last payday on their way out of the business. TX politicos and courts, OTOH, feel much less desire to exert high levels of control over how companies and workers structure their arrangements, making TX a place where such suits are harder to win.
I used to wonder why certain people talked shit about Skibum all the time. Took me long enough but now I see why.
SF Deja Vu clubs had already made the switch and I experienced first hand the difference in visits after vs before. Girls became mercenaries for those tips, many would ask for a tip up front before even getting to the VIP room. Needless to say that wasn't enjoyable and I started going to Gold Club Centerfolds in Rancho Cordova where they hadn't made the change yet.
Now that the change is mandatory I'm wondering how my future visits to Gold Club Centerfolds might play out. I haven't really had the urge to go clubbing lately but I might venture up there soon just to see how much it's changed. If it's anything like what the SF clubs have become then I will just save my money for out of state/TJ trips.
As fewer satistlfied patrons hit those clubs I expect it will drive girls to make more trips to Vegas, Portland, etc. to make bank. Also for the girls who are trapped in this state for whatever reason there will be more incentive for OTC activities
Big government, bad. This is the typical kind of liberal overreach which can kill an industry, close hundreds of businesses, and put thousands out of work. I hope this law was written with a sunset provision.
I know a dancer at Follies that is originally from San Francisco and still has family there that she visits several times a year. She used to work at one of the clubs there when visiting but now makes her trips shorter and just visits with family and friends.
I will never get why Government workers get so butt hurt when people give them shit about their useless jobs. As an attorney I get shit about my job from everybody, every day, and I don't care so why would anyone else.
@skibum the reason you don't care if they give you shit about your useless job is because you're making some money, folks working in useless gubermint jobs don't make a lot of money, have some empathy LOL
-->"From what I’ve gathered, California clubs have been micromanagers for a long time—even before the employee status change. There’s a reason these lawsuits that led to the suits happened disproportionately over there, and not so much in places like (for example) Texas. If I were to guess, it’s because that kind of behavior is the general Cali MO anyways."
blah, from my view -- which is admittedly a customer view -- your causality chain might be backwards. What I mean is, it is the government regulation that has always been micro-managing, particularly in the more liberal cities. This, in turn, leads to the opportunity for stripper lawsuits, the clubs then have to manage more closely, the city or state enacts more laws, the clubs manage more closely, etc. But the laws the clubs have had to deal with in, say, SF, and the statewide laws, are pretty unprecedented, and are what lead to the openings for lawsuits.
As an example, a series of lawsuit crushed MBOT and, since 2007 (when it was forced to move to an employee model, years before everyone else) has been a shell of its former self. In its heydey from '96 to '07-ish, girls were taking home huge $$$. Dayshift girls, during some of those years, were regularly taking home $1k+, nightshift girls far more. That's 2000 dollars, not today dollars. The lawsuit that finally brought MBOT down, was kicked off by a girl who had told any number of girls that the lawsuit was part of her exit strategy. She made hundreds of thousands for a few years, got a modest final payout from the lawsuit (the lawyers made a ton), and basically permanently ruined the club for any future strippers. Since '07, it's been slow and sad.
This pattern -- lawsuit, which leads to repressive changes in management, which leads to the girls and customers getting screwed, etc -- the reason I've been saying for so many years that, despite that fact that I always pick the girls over management, they are always the ones who get fucked in these lawsuits (we customers have the money to have other options). Only the retired girls who join the lawsuit make anything, and in a multi-million-dollar suit, they might make $10k-$20k.
-->"As fewer satistlfied patrons hit those clubs I expect it will drive girls to make more trips to Vegas, Portland, etc. to make bank. Also for the girls who are trapped in this state for whatever reason there will be more incentive for OTC activities "
It's been happening already -- there was an absolute invasion of CA strippers to Vegas. I haven't been partaking in OTC enough to know if there's been a real shift there, but for the girls who do remain, there are a few theoretical reasons they might be more attracted to OTC: 1. they make less per shift, 2. they are allowed far fewer shifts (the clubs don't want them to go above 32 hours, or whatever the limit is where healthcare kicks in), 3. they can't do doubles anymore (time and a half for more than 8 hours in a day, I imagine?). All of this adds up to, less money per hour, and fewer total hours worked. If they want to make that up, they can work a club in a different state, stay and supplement with OTC, stay and work multiple clubs, supplement with escorting/FBSM/sugaring, or leave the biz entirely.
-->"Is it coincidence or a rule that you have to be a fucktard if you live in California?"
You can also move here as not-a-fucktard, and you may tend to become more fucktarded with time. ski, you live in MA though, pretty high up as far as fucktarded states also. When I retire, I plan to do it in a free state
^ Funny you should mention that I'm all the way in South Florida, and the last few months I've met a bunch of California strippers, I don't remember any time recently when there were as many Cali gals down here.
I was referring to the post you made that Subraman quoted earlier about residents of CA. When I first joined this forum your posts were a lot happier. You love skiing, your wife is your best friend, life is good type shit. Nowadays it seems you do a lot more attacking groups of folks for no apparent reason.
These laws might be dumb but let’s not act like California is a bad place for strip clubs, in fact you could make the argument it’s the best state even now.
Muddy: no shit! What areas are particularly good? COI, what else? (that's not a challenge, I really want to know). SF has somehow gotten even worse, but it's been one of the worst big cities for SCs for a while
Me personally, I disagree with the premise that SF is among the worst. I personally think there is plenty worse. 1. That’s a city where you do have a chance of seeing some of the most insanely beautiful women ever. There is a chance. Some places I don’t know if I can say that about. Don’t get me wrong plenty of ugly dancers in SF. But it just has that wild card factor. Same for LA.
2. That fact that in some clubs you can get wild. Some cities there is no “getting wild” in the club. That is not a thing, in the whole city, or if it is maybe some fucked up dive where you wouldn’t even want it. There a lot of places were big extras are not an option. So to me on that alone it just can’t be one of the worst. Atleast for my tastes. A lot of guys on here like cheap extras with 5’s let’s keep it real, that’s not me. I’m hating on it but that’s not what I’m into.
And yeah obviously COI is fucking awesome. LA area overall I thought was strong talent wise. San Diego was kind of waste. SF I had fun yeah. I just lost some clubs that are my favorite overall. I would say half of the best clubs I’ve been to were from California (a lot of clubs though) Btw listing every LA area city is annoying. Hawthorne, Compton, Anaheim, COI, Long Beach, Torrance, FUCK IT all of it is LA.
Bare Elegance, Sahara Theater, SRCOI, Synn COI, Tropical Lei all in LA area. Just LA in general the talent is just a notch above, it really is.
SF Gold Club had some of the prettiest girls I’ve seen and I would say Centerfold’s was my best HASE experience ITC.
This is coming from someone who weighs talent a little more than extras more than my tuscl brethren. Not by a ton but definitely little more. I’m into getting alcoholic drinks and BSing with a really hot girl at a club. Where it can go after makes me love a club. I find it surprising how hard it can be to just get those two things now. California has a lot of hot girls. Some clubs let you do more than others with some of these hot girls. These very hot girls are what make it worth going to strip clubs with my money in the first place. There are a lot of clubs in the USA that have absolutely none of these hot girls in which I speak of.
Fuck I don’t know I just like the clubs there circa 2019 let see what happens.
Subra, I will concede that Cali is a sandbox you know better. Do you know how the clubs ran things, even during the glory days it was possible to frequently clear four figures at MBOT?
I get the impression California was full of scheduling, high house fees, high dance&room cuts, and lots of scheduling rules (and you better not be late, lest they not only fine you, but also wave the threat of termination). In other words, actions that blur the lines between IC and employee.
https://tuscl.net/photo.php?id=3745 https://tuscl.net/photo.php?id=3744 ^^
I uploaded photos of the house fees of two different clubs where I actually had photos of house fees on my phone. A couple of other clubs where I *don't* have a copy of fees saved on my phone are even more favorable for dancers if you’re willing to show up early enough.
When I was in school, I would often show up to work with the intent to work just long enough to clear $200-$300, and I paid on average $60-$80 total cost to work, and then would leave whenever I met my goal, before the club closed. And the managers didn’t care that I did that often. Something I suspect I wouldn’t be able to get away with elsewhere.
The reason I used Texas as a model (and I could have used other areas as well. But it’s just that I know Texas the best) is because the house fees are reasonable, as is the expected general tip out (which is flat, and not a %). It’s also pretty easy to show up pretty late in the evening if you want. In most of the clubs in the area, it’s also easy to leave as you wish as well. (With DFW area as an exception....but it’s also generally *cheaper* to work over there)
I will agree with Rick too about the court system having their preferences. And Texas probably is pretty lax and Cali draconian in their definitions. But it’s pretty easy for the courts to uphold their MO when the clubs tend to do things to more obviously treat dancers as the IC that they are.
Obviously, I’m just a dancer and not a club owner privy to the needs of different regions. And I agree with the near consensus that it’s all a clusterfuck and the dancers and lawyers trying to cash in were selfish dingbats.
But in my viewpoint, I still think a lot of what Cali clubs did, they did to themselves.
blah: good comments, I don't have any insight into how the clubs worked in CA vs other places as far as fees for the girls. You are definitely right about the oppressive regime of fees for every little thing but at least in SF -- which is the only city I have real insight into here -- that was brought to a science with the Deja Vu takeover of 90% of the clubs here. It is definitely true that DejaVu has, or had at one time, dancer fees as part of their business plan.
The house cuts definitely got bigger as the business grew in SF. There was a time when the clubs were all packed, where if I recall correctly MBOT charged the girls $200ish for dayshifts, over $300 for nightshifts. But those girls were doing over $1k and sometimes $1.5k+ respectively, so still bringing home a lot (during this time, the dancer migration was FROM Vegas TO SF to work at MBOT, which gives you an idea of the numbers). So the girls were pretty thrilled and making bank. The lawsuit brought that to a halt; now they're employees with no house fees at a club that's empty much of the time and has been struggling to stay open for years.
Anyway, maybe with all the money being made, the clubs were bound to find ways to take a cut, and then the law was bound to step in and create regulations
@Blah, I appreciate you and Waffle in another discussion explaining a bit about how the financial side of Strip Clubs work. It helps us understand to some extent why dancers charge for dances and why they might drop you and move on as soon as they figure you are done doing dances. I don’t like it when they do but I understand more why they do it. If I want a dancer to spend more time with me I need to modify my tipping and getting dances strategies.
Muddy, remind me, were you the guy who did the cross-country SC tour? That would definitely give you a perspective on direct comparisons most wouldn't have. On the other hand, there's also always a bit of a "first timer's wonderment" factor that could be coloring things. In any case, I am 100% with you on the notion of low-cost extras with high-volume 6s not being an appealing notion to me, and my sense is that that is what some of the most popular clubs on tuscl (like Follies) offer. It's also part of the reason Tijuana doesn't appeal to me in the slightest, although I know those girls are (supposedly) much more attractive, the "every girl is available to escort, and does so every night" model just doesn't appeal to me.
To give you an idea of why I wax so poetic on 1996-2007 MBOT, imagine girls easily of the caliber of SF Gold Club, except all offered some level of extras, even if not all the way to FS
Before my time, but they were all driven out of Oakland, if I remember right?
For a long time there was that one swingers club in Oakland, that one night a week imported in a bunch of hot strippers to cavort with the clientele. Never went but heard it was great. Ironically, probably just up SJG's alley -- private club, hot strippers, front room action, back room action.
@Subra Oakland has so much potential too. Due to its demographics it could have some awesome AA clubs, but also it has the population for the same clubs as SF. And just like SF it would probably help keep the street prostitution down. But instead of strip clubs with extras, Oakland offers street hookers on MLK and porn shops. Sad!
Yeah, 1/2 to 3/4 of SF strippers actually live in Oakland, surprise surprise. Oakland clubs could snatch them all up, if they could do enough business (if they existed at all)
I’m trying to incorporate the glossary a little hot ass stripper experience. There definitely could be shiny new toy syndrome going on. But I thought it was good. Bay Area big market. Two NFL teams, two baseball teams. For the market size not really that many strip clubs. I think that helps consolidate some of the talent. If you want to dance in that area you got like less than 10 options. Take a place like as an example Pittsburgh no extras that I’m aware of. Not a whole lot of 9’s dancing. Eh. This is not me hyping up San Francisco as the best place ever just me saying I think a lot of the country is very average.
42 comments
Unless California is amazingly consistent, I’m sure reality will kick in and a lot of this stuff will get ignored. Such as girls just paying the dance quotas (effectively, house fees) to the trackers anyways.
But it’s a shame. Driving through that state, it does seem like a really beautiful place. But it will have to be black balled and I worry more about a precedent being set for nationwide.
Yes there is, but perhaps not for the reasons you think. The reasons are as much philosophical as anything else. The politicos and the judges simply believe that gig economy pay works to the detriment of the recipients and that they are protecting workers. The fact that many of the workers who do this disagree is irrelevant to the Nanny State types that run the place..
So CA politicians pass laws broadly defining employee and CA courts broadly interpret those laws, which made it easy for ex-dancers to sue for one last payday on their way out of the business. TX politicos and courts, OTOH, feel much less desire to exert high levels of control over how companies and workers structure their arrangements, making TX a place where such suits are harder to win.
SF Deja Vu clubs had already made the switch and I experienced first hand the difference in visits after vs before. Girls became mercenaries for those tips, many would ask for a tip up front before even getting to the VIP room. Needless to say that wasn't enjoyable and I started going to Gold Club Centerfolds in Rancho Cordova where they hadn't made the change yet.
Now that the change is mandatory I'm wondering how my future visits to Gold Club Centerfolds might play out. I haven't really had the urge to go clubbing lately but I might venture up there soon just to see how much it's changed. If it's anything like what the SF clubs have become then I will just save my money for out of state/TJ trips.
Not judging here, just speculating.
tfp. I honestly hope I’m not stepping on you.
but if you are working for the DMV I Gotta say ha ha ha ha !
Useless strippers and lawsuits🤷🏻♀️
😏
blah, from my view -- which is admittedly a customer view -- your causality chain might be backwards. What I mean is, it is the government regulation that has always been micro-managing, particularly in the more liberal cities. This, in turn, leads to the opportunity for stripper lawsuits, the clubs then have to manage more closely, the city or state enacts more laws, the clubs manage more closely, etc. But the laws the clubs have had to deal with in, say, SF, and the statewide laws, are pretty unprecedented, and are what lead to the openings for lawsuits.
As an example, a series of lawsuit crushed MBOT and, since 2007 (when it was forced to move to an employee model, years before everyone else) has been a shell of its former self. In its heydey from '96 to '07-ish, girls were taking home huge $$$. Dayshift girls, during some of those years, were regularly taking home $1k+, nightshift girls far more. That's 2000 dollars, not today dollars. The lawsuit that finally brought MBOT down, was kicked off by a girl who had told any number of girls that the lawsuit was part of her exit strategy. She made hundreds of thousands for a few years, got a modest final payout from the lawsuit (the lawyers made a ton), and basically permanently ruined the club for any future strippers. Since '07, it's been slow and sad.
This pattern -- lawsuit, which leads to repressive changes in management, which leads to the girls and customers getting screwed, etc -- the reason I've been saying for so many years that, despite that fact that I always pick the girls over management, they are always the ones who get fucked in these lawsuits (we customers have the money to have other options). Only the retired girls who join the lawsuit make anything, and in a multi-million-dollar suit, they might make $10k-$20k.
It's been happening already -- there was an absolute invasion of CA strippers to Vegas. I haven't been partaking in OTC enough to know if there's been a real shift there, but for the girls who do remain, there are a few theoretical reasons they might be more attracted to OTC: 1. they make less per shift, 2. they are allowed far fewer shifts (the clubs don't want them to go above 32 hours, or whatever the limit is where healthcare kicks in), 3. they can't do doubles anymore (time and a half for more than 8 hours in a day, I imagine?). All of this adds up to, less money per hour, and fewer total hours worked. If they want to make that up, they can work a club in a different state, stay and supplement with OTC, stay and work multiple clubs, supplement with escorting/FBSM/sugaring, or leave the biz entirely.
You can also move here as not-a-fucktard, and you may tend to become more fucktarded with time. ski, you live in MA though, pretty high up as far as fucktarded states also. When I retire, I plan to do it in a free state
I was referring to the post you made that Subraman quoted earlier about residents of CA. When I first joined this forum your posts were a lot happier. You love skiing, your wife is your best friend, life is good type shit. Nowadays it seems you do a lot more attacking groups of folks for no apparent reason.
2. That fact that in some clubs you can get wild. Some cities there is no “getting wild” in the club. That is not a thing, in the whole city, or if it is maybe some fucked up dive where you wouldn’t even want it. There a lot of places were big extras are not an option. So to me on that alone it just can’t be one of the worst. Atleast for my tastes. A lot of guys on here like cheap extras with 5’s let’s keep it real, that’s not me. I’m hating on it but that’s not what I’m into.
And yeah obviously COI is fucking awesome. LA area overall I thought was strong talent wise. San Diego was kind of waste. SF I had fun yeah. I just lost some clubs that are my favorite overall. I would say half of the best clubs I’ve been to were from California (a lot of clubs though) Btw listing every LA area city is annoying. Hawthorne, Compton, Anaheim, COI, Long Beach, Torrance, FUCK IT all of it is LA.
Bare Elegance, Sahara Theater, SRCOI, Synn COI, Tropical Lei all in LA area. Just LA in general the talent is just a notch above, it really is.
SF Gold Club had some of the prettiest girls I’ve seen and I would say Centerfold’s was my best HASE experience ITC.
This is coming from someone who weighs talent a little more than extras more than my tuscl brethren. Not by a ton but definitely little more. I’m into getting alcoholic drinks and BSing with a really hot girl at a club. Where it can go after makes me love a club. I find it surprising how hard it can be to just get those two things now. California has a lot of hot girls. Some clubs let you do more than others with some of these hot girls. These very hot girls are what make it worth going to strip clubs with my money in the first place. There are a lot of clubs in the USA that have absolutely none of these hot girls in which I speak of.
Fuck I don’t know I just like the clubs there circa 2019 let see what happens.
I get the impression California was full of scheduling, high house fees, high dance&room cuts, and lots of scheduling rules (and you better not be late, lest they not only fine you, but also wave the threat of termination). In other words, actions that blur the lines between IC and employee.
https://tuscl.net/photo.php?id=3745
https://tuscl.net/photo.php?id=3744
^^
I uploaded photos of the house fees of two different clubs where I actually had photos of house fees on my phone. A couple of other clubs where I *don't* have a copy of fees saved on my phone are even more favorable for dancers if you’re willing to show up early enough.
When I was in school, I would often show up to work with the intent to work just long enough to clear $200-$300, and I paid on average $60-$80 total cost to work, and then would leave whenever I met my goal, before the club closed. And the managers didn’t care that I did that often. Something I suspect I wouldn’t be able to get away with elsewhere.
The reason I used Texas as a model (and I could have used other areas as well. But it’s just that I know Texas the best) is because the house fees are reasonable, as is the expected general tip out (which is flat, and not a %). It’s also pretty easy to show up pretty late in the evening if you want. In most of the clubs in the area, it’s also easy to leave as you wish as well. (With DFW area as an exception....but it’s also generally *cheaper* to work over there)
I will agree with Rick too about the court system having their preferences. And Texas probably is pretty lax and Cali draconian in their definitions. But it’s pretty easy for the courts to uphold their MO when the clubs tend to do things to more obviously treat dancers as the IC that they are.
Obviously, I’m just a dancer and not a club owner privy to the needs of different regions. And I agree with the near consensus that it’s all a clusterfuck and the dancers and lawyers trying to cash in were selfish dingbats.
But in my viewpoint, I still think a lot of what Cali clubs did, they did to themselves.
The house cuts definitely got bigger as the business grew in SF. There was a time when the clubs were all packed, where if I recall correctly MBOT charged the girls $200ish for dayshifts, over $300 for nightshifts. But those girls were doing over $1k and sometimes $1.5k+ respectively, so still bringing home a lot (during this time, the dancer migration was FROM Vegas TO SF to work at MBOT, which gives you an idea of the numbers). So the girls were pretty thrilled and making bank. The lawsuit brought that to a halt; now they're employees with no house fees at a club that's empty much of the time and has been struggling to stay open for years.
Anyway, maybe with all the money being made, the clubs were bound to find ways to take a cut, and then the law was bound to step in and create regulations
To give you an idea of why I wax so poetic on 1996-2007 MBOT, imagine girls easily of the caliber of SF Gold Club, except all offered some level of extras, even if not all the way to FS
What does HASE mean?
If you want a bad California strip club city, it's Oakland because they don't exist there.
For a long time there was that one swingers club in Oakland, that one night a week imported in a bunch of hot strippers to cavort with the clientele. Never went but heard it was great. Ironically, probably just up SJG's alley -- private club, hot strippers, front room action, back room action.