#metoo killed friendly banter

Yeah, I don't know. I really don't struggle with this that much, or at all really.

@VH - part of the challenge is that the female decides what is offensive. If I say you look beautiful today, she may act offended. If the office stud says it, maybe it's okay.

Regardless, almost anything not related to work could be taken out of context if there is motivation to do so.

#metoo is not bullshit.

Need to be careful about women in the work place. They are there so that they can pay their bills and develop careers. Need to lay off of them unless something they say specifically makes an invitation. Otherwise only the gentlest approaches would be deemed acceptable.

SJG

just don't comment. Ignore them until they require your assistance, act curtious, and once their desire for your help is fufilled, go back to joke about dicks with your guy co-workers. If it bothers the ladies, then let them bring it up.

Have to be careful about having them cornered, where they have no choice but to let you talk to them because it is their job. Have to avoid setting up these kinds of situations.

SJG

Friendly banter is not friendly if someone is there for they job, but they don't want to listen to it.

Sometimes banter is loaded with misogyny or other hate speech.

SJG

In 1985 I had a 6 month fling with a 29 y.o. divorcee who technically didn’t work for me but for all practical purposes she did. I was 40 and even back then I worried about creating an uncomfortable workplace for her. She was a speech pathologist and I a principal at a public high school. We fucked in the elevator during school hours, fucked on my desk after school, she blew me sitting at a table in the library and on and on. My concern about harassment was such that I had a long talk with her about it. She let me babble on about case law, varying situations, and every damned thing I thought I knew on the subject. She looked me in the eye, scowled, and then said, “Fuck! That’s no fun. Just shut up and keep doing whatever you’re doing. I love it.” My point is that questionable situations need to be addressed. If you just finished extolling why male on top for a 69 is best and you turn around and your 21 year old intern is blushing crimson, take her aside later, apologize, explain steps taken to avoid putting your foot in your mouth again. Situations of harassment and hostile work environment precede #MeToo by many years.

@Heaving - imagine that intern in tears telling HR you were kicking her chair and screaming at her to work harder. Saying you were just joking wouldn't cut it.

And yea, she is very unlikely to do that but you did just give her the power to fuck your world up.

@Estafador - with very few exceptions that is exactly how I roll. I do miss the banter though. Some of the ladies could be fun.

@gawker - ha! Even a hint of saying anything like that would be a termination offense. There would be no talking an intern down from that.

You are looking for the opinion of a confident professional woman here?

Really? Are you sure this is the forum for that opinion?

Gawker, I have no comment about your narrative.

But in general it is wrong to put anyone on their job into a negative situation via banter or sexual expectations. not saying you ever did this. But it is very common. I think out OP has got a serious problem.

SJG

@heaving - my days of commenting on a co-workers appearance is long behind me. I get your point though.

It's cool that you can tell your coworker she is beautiful without worrying of bs accusations. She's such a cool friend she would never, in a million years, do anything like that. Probably.

I guess showing her a dick -pic on your phone is out of the question?

In all honesty in previous generations many male-workers routinely crossed-the-line and would look at attractive female employees as.sex-toys vs colleagues.

One can argue that today's environment is an over-correction but it needed to happen and perhaps a happy-medium can be achieved in the future (or it can get worse).

snowflake millennials who can't handle that life is difficult are ruining a lot of things.

I agree with Papi.

And as far as mjx01, I am glad that millennials would be able to quickly deal with you.

SJG

@heaving - I get your point. Absolutely. The risk of complaints from any of your examples is miniscule.

Even so, at least at my place of work, you could have easily been terminated if the intern complained.

Sometimes there is crazy lurking just under a sane demeanor with these honeys.

^^^^^^ I think the above is completely unfounded and just raw misogyny.

SJG

@Papi - I agree. I remember well what the work place was like for women before sexual harassment was deemed a problem.

I knew of one dude that worked in shipping that would get touchy feely with a lot of the females just walking the halls. Very blatant. Took forever to finally fire him. That dude would last only two days in the current environment.

You guys really aren't this stupid are you? Its that hard to speak to somone with respect? For fucks sake

Personally I think the benefit of the doubt should be given with comments unless someone has been warned they’re making someone uncomfortable. I believe in decency but I also believe sexual harassment should be an internal not a legal matter.

I don’t think #metoo killed friendly banter. There is a time and a place for sexual innuendo and jokes. The work place has never really been that place. Just banter about other stuff.

^^^ This.

===> "I don’t think #metoo killed friendly banter. There is a time and a place for sexual innuendo and jokes. The work place has never really been that place. Just banter about other stuff."

+1. I interact with a lot of females in my professional life and I've never felt particularly stifled. Just steer clear from religion, politics and sexual references and you should be fine.

Well if you feel stifled by your industry, feel free to transition into something else.

There’s apparently one club in the Rocky Mountain region with a notorious strip club manager who requires dancers to give out VHM/UHM lapdances for the audition. And he can get away with that because that club is a moneymaker.

I simply focus on what I am there to do. I NEVER engage with any banter that speaks of a female’s beauty whatsoever. I only talk about what they have consulted me for. I may smile. I may laugh. But, I never initiate the potential innuendo that can be taken even the slightest bit off. This is why I love strip clubs. I can truly cut loose and banter away, then move on.

Daddyfatsack “You guys really aren't this stupid are you? Its that hard to speak to somone with respect? For fucks sake”

Seriously, THIS. #metoo isn’t about “snowflake millennials.” It’s about a victim being able to say something if he/she has been assaulted or harassed.

If you are too afraid to interact because you are worried that you are harassing someone, guess what, you probably are. How hard is it for you to be around other people and just not be a dick?

^^^ Also this.

In a recent survey, 60 percent of managers share the same concern regarding interacting with women at work.

Context is subjective.

nypost.com

The metoo movement didn’t kill friendly banter. If you are implying chatting with female coworkers in a friendly manner is dead, I think that’s very untrue.

The sexual innuendo in office banter has been something that died close to 25 years ago - and that was well before the metoo movement began. Those overtly sexual and highly implied sexual references haven’t been acceptable in offices for a very long time.

I’ve worked in professional corporate offices of large corporations for more than 30 years. When I was young, the office was predominantly young adult professionals, and the environment provided for more office dating, but overt actions were still unacceptable. The current idea would be to avoid any sexual innuendo (either overt or implied).

Apples and bananas LW. "Banter" that includes sexual innuendo has been unacceptable for the 25 years that I have been in the corporate world. It's pretty easy to avoid it on a casual basis in the workplace if you have any brain in your head at all.

Mentoring is a deeper workplace relationship, often with social elements, that provides more opportunities for misunderstandings. But even then the issues raised in that survey have existed for far longer than meetoo. Sexual harassment and hostile work environment accusations have become such a common tool for terminated females to extract better departing packages that managers are rightly cautious about spending time alone with them. There is no easy answer for this one and much of it has to do not with popular culture, but with misguided laws in certain states that have had unintended consequences.

OP what exactly were these “wisecrack” comments were you considering making towards “several, new to me, charming young ladies”. I’m sure if it was sexual in nature, then you wouldn’t have said it to a pudgy 40 year old man anyways.

——

Looking back through all the vanilla jobs I’ve had (university dorm office worker, pharmacy technician,fast food worker, door to door sales)—I have dealt with a fair share of gender dynamics too.

But realistically speaking, if a female is young and attractive, then her looks will always be an advantage or disadvantage. Most of the advantage is in men wanting to fuck you. Most of the disadvantage is in men and women alike assuming you’re incompetent, so you have to work even harder to prove yourself.

And to make it so that it’s in neutral territory, she has to develop quite the interpersonal skills. Mostly by getting herself in a position where she either has power over others or can work independently.

And btw this isn’t just up against men who want to fuck her, but other women too who may perceive her as a threat. I may have made a sarcastic comment here and there against fellow dancers, but in reality dealing with strippers is the most straightforward interaction.

—— Personal example: Back when I worked at a pharmacy, a lot of female coworkers would constantly find something minor to nitpick me on and attack my job competence in some way or another.

Apparently behind my back, they didn’t comment too much on my job performance but did say that I was a bitch.

Which I found out about in my retail pharmacy job because...my male coworker told me about it and also told me he stuck up for me because he thought I was very nice 😂. And also my boss helped me vent and would talk shit about them with me. He made some minor sexual comments with me, that might have gotten him in trouble were it somebody else. But I laughed it off and let it slide. And at one point the boss apologized to me and admitted that some of the pettiness my way probably had to do with the fact I was his favorite employee, though he always tried to not show favoritism.

Here’s a solution 😈: generally, college professional internships happen after sophomore year. That means after freshman year, good looking & career oriented females should go to a far flung city where they have no interest in ever living and dance for a summer.

Then she will have plenty of practice to learn how to play dumb to and navigate around male lust bullshit, and get what she wants from him anyways. Or if she really wants that rapid promotion, how to negotiate with that fucker to get that without letting him rule you with an iron fist.

I don’t get the problem, go to work do your job, why is this so confusing to everyone, if there’s a woman you work with she’s a co-worker, she’s not there for your entertainment what’s the problem here.

I'm curious to hear the comments that the OP was thinking of saying - but thought the better of.

Well, were I in a work environment, I just might give a damn. But since I am retired and go where I please, I don't care if I offend, PO, or whatever anyone else. My friends know me and we all pretty much live our lives OUR way, not someone else's way!

@nicespice - it would be impossible for me to articulate context so I won't even try.

It would not have been sexual in any way. In fact, there is probably a 99 percent chance the audience would have found it funny.

That stated, what someone finds offensive is subjective and can change quickly over time.

Also, almost anything non-work related can be misconstrued with enough effort. E.g. what part of town do you live in?

Based on everything I've seen happen in my workplace and what I read in the media, I just find it more prudent to keep all conversation work related with little variation. Hence, the purpose of the topic.

^ I have to confess, this is territory I’m getting into with some ignorance, as I haven’t had a white collar office job before.

I’d assume that there is some socialization involved on the job? Office parties, golfing, etc. But it’s a networking thing and that would be the main goal at the end of it, I’m guessing? One doesn’t connect with others at work to find a BFF who loves you as you and be the one to bail you out of jail, etc.

So you can be friends with somebody you work with, but perhaps not best friends, nor perhaps even super close friends.

In the past, it may have been easier to not consider other individual’s boundaries with a homogenous work environment, when there’s others more like you and it’s easier to understand them.

But things got changed with women in the workforce, racial integration from American minorities, and HB-1 visas.

But if so, then what’s the difference between other challenges in a mor diverse workforce vs #metoo specifically?

Yeah it’s big deal in the workplace. Maybe not with you or even your female coworker. But it might be a big deal with whoever’s in charge of you or rather the person who has the ability to get rid of you

@25 the problem is I’m incredibly immature and refuse to shut my mouth. Same for a lot on here.

^ Welp an open mouth does get a lot of flies 😂

Spice, you have it a bit out of order.

First, everyone has the right to go to work and not be harassed or made to feel uncomfortable.

Second, people naturally interact with coworkers socially and sometimes try to form sexual relationships with them.

But this does not replace the first point. If you choose (get it, choose) to make advances on a coworker you do it at your own risk. This has always been true, but because it was not taken seriously decades ago, laws got stronger and punishments more severe. When even that didn’t work, public shaming has now become the norm. Sucks that that’s what it took to push back.

If someone welcomes a co-worker’s advances, great, taking a chance paid off. If you offend them, that is the risk you took. If you don’t like it, try to find dates somewhere else besides your office.

@nicespice - the breadth of your question is difficult to address.

I must say you are smoking hot in the Avatar. My favorite SC cusine. If you are ever in the Phoenix area I hope you will let me know so we can spend quality time together.

The above is a good example of why I need to be careful what I say to my co-workers :-)

"First, everyone has the right to go to work and not be harassed or made to feel uncomfortable.

Second, people naturally interact with coworkers socially and sometimes try to form sexual relationships with them.

But this does not replace the first point. If you choose (get it, choose) to make advances on a coworker you do it at your own risk. This has always been true, but because it was not taken seriously decades ago, laws got stronger and punishments more severe."

I agree with the above.

All kinds of relationships can and do routinely form in the office work environment. But one has to be careful that they are not taking unfair advantage of the situation. You can't make someone feel that your higher rank or supervisorial status mean that they have to talk with you at times or in ways when they don't want to.

Unfortunately we have a political right which is deeply misogynistic, and it was on the basis of this that this thread started. They see women as less than full persons, and they think them unreasonably prone to exaggerate and lie. There is no basis for this.

SJG

Charmaine Sinclair 4 early photos tuscl.net

^@jimmy Hm? 🤔I’m not advocating anything related to how white collar jobs should be.

Just that I wonder how realistic it is for a female to avoid that stuff completely. Well maybe she can if she wants to be a nurse or work in HR and be in a safe bubble of predominately females. Where she can carve out a comfortable spot for herself and perhaps even go part time if/when she procreates but not have much room to advance.

I’ve been in majority male environments before, with some college classes I took and some student orgs I’ve joined. Heck there’s a professor or two who I know would probably have spent well on me if he saw me at a club...let’s just put it like that. Did they outright hit on me? No.

Or a man who ran some seminar for a student org and the whole thing was about networking on linked in. But the man outright went slightly off topic for me individually and warned me to be very careful in how I in particular network and find mentors. Lest I find somebody who suggests meeting up in a hotel room. 😅

So...just saying, stuff like that will always be behind the surface. It’s good the worst elements of it is being cracked down on.

But an attractive female can’t be a complete buttercup either IMO if she wants to do anything ambitious.

Lone_wolf said “I must say you are smoking hot in the Avatar. My favorite SC cusine. If you are ever in the Phoenix area I hope you will let me know so we can spend quality time together.”

It might not be that hard to convince me to go over there. Another dancer (off this site) recently posted a review about how Hi-liter is super lax with allowing dancers to come and go as they please. To the point it’s possible to come in at 11am and work a little bit, leave for five hours, and then come back and not pay another house fee (!!) if true, then that club seems freaking awesome and I just hope the extras aren’t too obnoxious.

Yeah, I get what you were saying. I was pointing out that you skipped past that everyone has a right to go to work and be safe. I put it first because it’s the most important part. All the stuff worrying about not being able to banter, false accusations, people who want to date in the workplace, easily offended people, etc. is all secondary. The first, basic, most important right is that everyone gets to work.

Some people have used their position to force women to put up with things which they don't want to. It is because of that on the job hierarchy, that the office presents a special challenge in maintaining safety.

But this does not mean that office romance or consensual friendly banter could ever be outlawed. And courts have already ruled on this.

Ross Perot had tried to outlaw office romance, but the courts ruled against him.

SJG

I recall when I started working for a large-corporation out-of-college, one of the older guys told me that back in the 70s and early-80s when a cute young secretary would be hired she would be pictured in the company newsletter mainly b/c she was attractive

My brother has a friend who is kinda immature and always likes to crack jokes - anyway a year+ back he thought it would be funny to put something in his pant's pocket (I think it was a stapler but can't remember) and tell a female coworker "hey check this out" - apparently he misread how down they were with each other b/c she went to HR and he was canned.

Obviously in this day-and-age he should have known-better - but getting him fired over a wise-crack where he meant no-harm I think was a bit-much - it was basically a joke she did not care for but getting him fried over a bad-joke I thought was overkill - it's not as he grabbed her tit or something.

@Papi - good example of how easy it is to misjudge a co-workers response. One day they may be cool. A week later, after the boss starts leaning on them for something, it's harassment. Seen it.

Here’s a hint - don’t tell a coworker to look at your crotch. I should be a labor lawyer with this sophisticated expertise.

^^^^^ People are expected to use judgement.

SJG

@Jimmy I have no idea how I got roped in with this. 😞 I had no complaint or opinion of what specific kind of workplace banter is acceptable and what impedes safety.

All I said, from an individual female self-interest standpoint, is it’s not always wise to complain about things. But simply improve your personal power so that nobody can fuck with you.

Heck, I suspect the biggest thing that makes the office more “safe” today has more to do with the rise of females as CEOs and other positions. And less to do with any written rules and bureaucracy.

Spice, you’re right that if you are a strong female you may not need legal protection. But not everybody is, and they deserve to be able to work too. My point is from the male side. I know enough not to treat the workplace like a club. I also know that if I decide to make a non-work comment I’d better be sure I’m not saying something that might offend.

Emphasis is that because I know the risk, I better be able to accept the consequences if I’m wrong.

#METOO isa fucking joke and the lying piece of shit Christine Blasey Ford's attorney was caught on audio saying the attack on kavanaugh was purely political. This is how I view #METOO. I need an associate now. I put an ad in the paper. Every resume was from a female. One of the paralegals here is a thrid year male law student. He'll be a lawyer in about 13 months. I will wait.

The good old days: On March 31, 1976 Umass Amherst elected its first co student gov't presidents. 1 man. 1 woman. April 1, 1976 The Daily Collegian (Umass Amherst school paper) has a front page photo of a man fucking a woman under a blanket and the heading: "SGA Co-Presidents participate in inaugeral ball". Imagine that today. Yeah, it still makes me laugh.

Back to usual with Skibum.

SJG

Quid Pro Quo and Hostile Work Environment are where the law can step in.

SJG

I’m still interested to hear the joke that couldn’t be told by the OP for fear of getting into trouble with HR.

===> "Obviously in this day-and-age he should have known-better - but getting him fired over a wise-crack where he meant no-harm I think was a bit-much - it was basically a joke she did not care for but getting him fried over a bad-joke I thought was overkill - it's not as he grabbed her tit or something."

Papi, I've heard a handful of stories like this. One guy I know lost one of his biggest accounts simply by telling a woman employed by his client, after she was the one who started bantering, that he wished he met her when he was 20 years younger. Obviously this was even less offensive than the fake penis in the pants joke your guy pulled, but it was enough to lose him a good chunk of his income as this was his largest client by a stretch.

But the companies in these stories didn't fire these guys for the jokes/comments per se, but rather for the liability that might have followed had they failed to act. In all of these instances, the women in question reported the incidents and there was no dispute regarding the facts and circumstances. The companies had to act or else open themselves up to future sexual harassment/hostile work environment lawsuits for appearing to condone the behavior.

And yes, in this day and age, they should have known that things like fake penis gags and unwanted expressions of romantic interest by a much older guy are not OK in a corporate setting. I deal with women constantly in buttoned up corporate settings and it's not really that tough to stay away from stupid shit like this.

VH is Dougie the loser and Obama was born in Kenya.

I'll also point out that guys who make these sort of bone headed mistakes once tend to make them over and over again, often regardless of past disciplinary actions. That's not always true, but it's a dependable trend.

And, the fact is that the vast majority of guys navigigate corporate and sub-corporate employment without ever struggling to avoid these situations.

So why should an employer feel obligated to take that risk with Mr. Stapler-in-my-Pants when they can easily hire a guy who can do the job and not make actionable, juvenile dick jokes on the job?

I think it's up to that guy to sort out his workplace behavior, and not the employer's duty to teach him how to be an adult.

Nam,e one conservative woman who is part of the #METOO movement.....................

Skibum has 6 posts that he just repeatedly copies and pastes into threads. He tries to be extreme but all he is is boring.

^ Skibum is actually an alright guy and we’ve met and clubbed together I like him, my suspicion is that he’s just trying to get a rise out of certain people LOL. Not that he’s really invested in the statements he posts here, just has an evil sense of humor.

Hate speech is not just an evil sense of humor.

SJG

Rroyd no hate me! He vewy wewaxed after visit to me!

^ yet you’re ok with the rants of that pseudo pimp icee that’s definitely hypocrisy

Vh you sound like a little boy. Jimmy you a loser. I am taking a progressive right now, oops I meant a dump.

A progressive is just someone with a brain who does not run on hate.

SJG

A basic compare is SJG being a progressive - and seeing what he has contributed to this board.

He's added no reviews, and he just spouts off, so he's basically done nothing.

He's less useful than the shit SkiBum dropped in the bowl...

Some people did something on 9/11 - Ilhan Omar - progressive.

SJG vewy pwogwessive - he eat my ass after I eat poo poo pwatter - vewy gweasy- me get the toots

I think the "pound me too" movement is perfect

I’m waiting for progressives to want stronger laws for airplanes. The liberal NYT rag posted yesterday that airplanes pointed themselves at the towers and brought them down!

That’s horrific revisionist history!

Commercial aviation is already quite regulated. The 911 teoists had to kill people to commandeer flying aircraft.

And after that incident airport and aircraft security has been radically increased.

Cashman1234 continues to be an idiot beyond description, but on this forum, he is not alone.

SJG

#metoo! I'm gay too! The 😍

^^^^^^^ I agree with IceyLoco, and very well put!

SJG