VA Tech...

I believe the whole nation is in shock wondering Why? Why? I believe the individual may have been suffering from mental illness and/or depression. I don't understand how anyone could just go around shooting everyone in site unless they were mentally ill or the devil himself. It's my opinion such an individual visualizes all the victims as objects instead of human beings. The individual isn't happy with something in his life and he blames everyone in a group or maybe in this case everyone he sees. It's trully tragic that so many had to suffer and die as a result of this individual having problems. What's even more sad is that I heard today someone may have reported this individual to the police already as having some serious problems but the police told them that there was nothing they could do unless he broke the law. If anyone reading this is suffering problems and blames society, please ask for help instead of seeking revenge. I do believe everyone has a soul and they will be judged on everything they did. Murder and/or suicide is not the answer. my 2 cents. Maybe if people were convinced that suicide doesn't end anything and they would get punished for killing others or themselves, they wouldn't do it.

If anyone reading this was personally affected by the events, my condolences.

Speaking on a brighter note, I heard about a 76 year old professor I think he was. He is being called a hero trying to barricade a door and taking shots in the process while letting some students escape out a window. I heard of some other students pushing a table against a door while the gunman shot through the door but they were all down near the floor. Those bullets he wasted may have saved more lives. I don't know how much ammo this guy had. I'm also wondering if 2 hours passed between the first group of killings in the dorm and later in the classrooms. What did he do during those 2 hours? Maybe I missed something. I'm just trying to make sense of the whole thing.

" I'm pissed that he robbed me of the enjoyment of seeing him caught, arrested, charged, convicted, and punished."

Personally I think killing himself and sparing us trials and recriminations and endless questions (Why? rage, hate, revenge. Pretty straightforward, does that make it better?) was the only marginally decent thing he did. He was not fit to live among us. He removed himself. Good riddance.

He probably did it out of cowardice, but I don't really care. There is one less sick bastard in the world, and we didn't need 15 years of trials and a supreme court appeal to get there.

Casualguy, a 76 year old holocaust survivor who escaped communist opression to Israel, and finally found peace in America was killed by a dysfunctional punk who wanted to slaughter more people but couldn't because an old man had the courage to resist... He was heroic, as he had apparently been his whole life. That doesn't make his death a "bright note", it makes him a hero, who should be honered and admired, which is what I think you were trying to say, if you'll permit me.

I don't know if you saw it, but he was an English major and he wrote a couple of one act plays, one of which was about pedophilia and the other about killing their teacher. One of those plays was about Mr Brownstone, the G'n'R song. It was twisted. Apparently, the students in this class, one of whom is an AOL employee (and the person who wrote an article about it there) thought he might end up a school shooter.

The only way we are ever going to begin reducing the violence in our society is to stop showing graphic violence on TV and movies. In my opinion thhat's the real pornography. Study after study have shown that exposure to graphic violence makes children less sensitive to it and more accepting. If you want to blame someone for this kind of nonsense, movies and TV and the people who run them are a good place to start.

When a society replaces its traditional values with a belief that self-gratification is everything, when money becomes the primary object of worship, when there is no right and wrong only equally-acceptable alternative life-styles, when we promote personal freedom without commensurate personal responsibility, when we love self to the exclusion of one another, life becomes meaningless chaos. And life without meaning is life without value, and it becomes easy to justify its taking.

For the past 4 decades this has been the new philosophy promoted by our media, the same people now wringing their hands and asking "why?" The "why" is easy; whether or not we have the will to change is the hard question. Our society is morally and intellectually bankrupt and is in decline. Until that changes you can expect more of these tragedies not fewer.

I noted that the kid, like at Columbine and Brantford (Brampton? can't remember the name; another school shooting) was raging against the "privileged" classes. There are plenty of other sub-plots worth investigating -- the Holocaust survivor who barred the door so his students could escape, for example; the fact that Nikki Giovanni tried to send the kid to counseling; the fact that you can't FORCE a troubled adult to dis-enroll from school or see a counselor unless you get injunctions and, since he hadn't yet been violent, VaTech couldn't have done that; etc.

But the one about railing against privileged white society -- even if you are, or are not, a member -- is interesting to me. Tim McVeigh had that flavor about him, too. We're seeing a new breed of "I'm disgruntled" become "I hate THE GOODIE TWO SHOES WHITEYS WHO ARE IN CHARGE."

I dunno ... just a thought.

Book Guy, I think that as the gap between rich and poor widens, increased hatred between classes is inveitable. Especially when those flames of hatred are regularly fanned by politicians and their friends in the media. I personally find the rampant greed that prevails to be disgusting, and IMO greed, along with the dishonesty which often accomplishes it, is destroying our society. We can expect to see a lot more violence as we continue down the path of moral decay, while people who should know better wring their hands and wonder why.

I fear that we are raising an increasing number of severely disturbed young people. Increasing numbers of children in our society are raised in isolation, surrounded by machines not people, so they develop neither social skills nor empathy. They see a world filled with hypocrisy, where adults say one thing and do another. Where dishonesty is rewarded more than hard work. Where money is more important than people. Where the popular "heros" are narcisstic assholes. And where violence is glorified.

They're strongly encouraged to strive toward goals which to them are heinous. They see no meaning or value to their lives. They are total misfits, totally without friends. The dumb ones will turn to drugs and alcohol and fill our prisons. But what will the smart ones become?

I'm watching a Star Trek: TNG episode about the Borg. Surrounded by machines ... and then they get the emotion chip and can't handle it! :)

Hate to point this out in the aftermath of such a tragedy, and in no way am I saying anyone deserved this.

Virginia is a CCW state. Virginia Tech was THE biggest voice of opposition to allowing firearms on campus. Infact just ONE YEAR AGO when they won their case to make the school a "gun free" zone. The idiot who pushed for this said now everyone will be able to rest easier.

"Gun free" to me just made a mass execution possible. No one was able to stand up and defend themselves and those around them. How sad. It is time for people to drop this thin skin pussy bullshit and realize that the world isn't allways a nice place. You are responsible for your own safety. The police and campus security can not protect you. The best they can do is string up some yellow tape and mop up the mess.

We send our sons and daughters out into the world to seek an education, yet we have denied them the most basic of life's skills. Survival Knowledge. Think how many people would be alive today if someone would have popped that little bastard when he started his rampage instead of over two hours later. CCW could have worked in this instance. I believe it would have provided the best possible outcome. Thanks to the anti-gun crowd for disarming these victims. 32 more bodies on you.

FONDL,

Just so you know which I'm refering to;

"When a society replaces its traditional values with a belief that self-gratification is everything, when money becomes the primary object of worship, when there is no right and wrong only equally-acceptable alternative life-styles, when we promote personal freedom without commensurate personal responsibility, when we love self to the exclusion of one another, life becomes meaningless chaos. And life without meaning is life without value, and it becomes easy to justify its taking.

For the past 4 decades this has been the new philosophy promoted by our media, the same people now wringing their hands and asking "why?" The "why" is easy; whether or not we have the will to change is the hard question. Our society is morally and intellectually bankrupt and is in decline. Until that changes you can expect more of these tragedies not fewer."

What you wrote is just about the perfect expression of what I feel on this topic.

But of course I'll expand on perfection...

While your post does encapsulate this to a degree I'll just be explicit. We promote self image and self worship among our young, self-esteem absent any accomplishment, or any estimable acts. What becomes of that fragile psyche when it leaves the tender mercies of grade school. Our educational establishments and child rearing "experts" have consciously divorced childhood from reality. No child is ever left to rely upon themselves to achieve anything or resolve any conflict, or accept that failure is a real part of life.

I saw the sick bastard raving. At what? To me it seemed he was upset we'd denied his "specialness", so he was going to prove himself special in the only way he's ever been taught, be famous, no matter how that fame is achieved.

I will probably get flamed for this, and I may deserve it to an extent since I wasn't there, but the old chickenhawk argument doesn't hold a lot of currency with me (ask me why, I dare you, LOL). Anyway, I was listening to NPR on my way to work this morning, and one young woman was telling her story. It may have been in the telling, perhaps in her perception, but the way it was told when the sick bastard (I refuse to use his name and give him the fame he obviously desired) entered her classroom, everyone hit the floor. He emptied his gun, reloaded, then continued firing. I hope I am wrong but it sounds like nobody even considered resisting. He had time to reload. As I said, I wasn't there, but come on, throw a chair, run, tackle him, rush him en masse, jump out the window! It sounds like they were sheep, victims, which is I fear what we have taught them to be. The only resistance I've heard about came from a 76 year old holocaust survivor who understood passivity would not save him, and while action might not either, it might save others. Which it did.

Could be, that three or four people in a given classroom did resist, but serially, in a poorly planned attack, and each was gunned down in sequence, and then the remaining observers were also killed. Such that no witnesses remain to give testament of the resistance having happened. We don't know whether they died cowards or brave men in any room where they all died.

I was impressed with the Holocaust survivor's story. He got out of Nazi death camps, then again he got out of the pogroms as the Communists took over Romania soon after the War. So where did he get it? In the most free country in the world. At least he was acting with dignity and charity in his final acts. I suspect that his horrific earlier experiences perhaps prepared him to act with such grace under fire.

BG, as I said, I HOPE, I'm wrong, but this story on NPR, to me, seemed VERY clear that NOBODY in the room did ANYTHING while the shooter fired some 20ish shots, and then reloaded and fired 15 more.

I then read this on my lunch break...

http://article.nationalreview.com/print/…

I don't think I'd ever read about those aspects of the “Montreal massacre”. Want to really despair for the future of liberal (in the classical sense) democracy? Read Steyn's book "America Alone".

Any society, no matter it's virtues or vices, no matter how great it becomes, will only survive as long as there are people willing to defend those ideals with their lives. We've taught a generation that nothing is worth dying for, therefore nothing is worth fighting for, and we are left with a generation predominantly made up of sheep. They expect protection from the shepherd or sheepdog, but absent that, they are left to the slaughter. We aren't raising many sheepdogs or shepherds, except those gun totin' rednecks you disparage. How do you feel about them being the last line of defense of western civilization?

AN, you are correct in your assumption. When I said "brighter note" I was referring to the heroic actions of the 76 year old victim. I wasn't referring to his death which is sad to hear of. Anytime I hear somebody acting heroic in the face of danger or certain death, I consider that activity to be above and beyond the norm in our society especially to give up one's life to possibly save others. I consider that a brighter note to an otherwise very sad tragic story.

Question, I'm not very familiar with gun law abbreviations. Does CCW refer to concealed weapons or banned or controlled concealed weapons?

Yah, I hate the sheep, too. Everyone following along and (worse) expecting to be fed merely because they belly up to the trough where food was yesterday. Bad system for preparing our society for any eventualities ...

Oh wait, missed a point. I don't generally disparage gun-totin' rednecks ... I basically AM one. I was born in the MS delta and own fire arms, for exampe, though I don't speak with a twangy accent. And if you're suggesting that the rednecks did themselves proud because a Jewish man from Romania held the door against the attacker while the students from Virginia (sheep-like?) fled, then I'm going to have to ask you what you're defining as "redneck" ...

AN, thanks for the compliment. I actually left one other thought out because it's probably more controversial than the other stuff I wrote. But what the hell ... I think a major contributor to events such as this is that as a society we have decided that some human lives aren't worth much and in so doing we have devalued all life. I believe that kind of thinking, which is common in our society, makes it easier for crazies to justify killing. Seems to me there are only two choices, either all life is sacred or it isn't, either "thou shall not kill" is one of our core values or it isn't.

I also think the media's over-coverage of this instance, and in particualr the showing of photos of the deranged individual involved, greatly increases the odds that we will see more of this in the future. But don't get me started on our irresponsible media.

BG, Perhaps I mis-spoke in saying you disparage gun totin' rednecks. I do recall a certain hostility to the very religious less educated lower class rural types, but then in my experience those are almost always gun totin' people too. When I was talking about how gun totin' rednecks were the only ones defending the country I was speaking in general terms. All those NRA stickers you described on another thread ("God Guns and Guts Made this Country Free" and "AmerICAN and Fuck you United Nations" and "Taxes are for people who need to be told what to do" ) at least show a certain pride in the country and a willingness (in attitude if not in practice) to defend it.

Casualguy, CCW refers to Carrying Concealed Weapon, although I've heard some refer to a class of smaller lighter guns as CCW (concealed cary weapons). "Right to carry" states are those, like Virginia where a resident has a presumptive right to CCW unless cause can be shown why he shouldn't. Some states, like Maryland, you must show a cause and go through a long process to get a CC permit. In any case just buying a gun does not automatically mean you have a concealed carry permit. You must still (and I believe this is true in nearly all right to carry states) apply for a CC permit seperately.

Just as an addenda, 37 states are "right to carry" (sometimes refered to as "shall issue" as in they shall issue a CC permit unless cause to deny it can be shown), Two states, Alaska and Vermont are unrestricted, two others Illinois and Wisnonsin (plus DC) prohibit CC altogether, and all the rest it is left to the discretion of the relevant official.

Heard this from several dancers at my favorite club on my last visit. While I was there a hand gun was found in a chair, close to where I was sitting. Apparently a customer had brought it in and it slipped out unnoticed by him, untill he returned from a lap dance and noticed it missing. He got hold of the manager and they gave it back to him. Nobody, including me, found it disturbing. Just another strip club story.

IGU I grew up where almost everyone hunted, and like you when hunting season came around many guys kept their rifles in their car, a few stored them in their lockers in the school. Nobody thought anything of it. Guns were just another normal part of life. I know it sounds trite, but guns don't scare me any more than power tools, show them a healthy respect and you're OK, it's the guy hold a gun that can be scary.

In the town that I now live in there has never been a violent crime. Now there is a city police officer on duty at each school when it is in session. Things are still crazy. Last year in the same week we had 2 high school students, including my boss's son, commit suicide. I don't get it.

I have a teeny chrome-plated "for show" ladies' pistol from the 1970s. Haven't looked at it in years, I guess I should unpack it and see what caliber and brand it is. It might be a collector's item. Sometimes I thought it might be "cool" to carry it with me to a strip club or some other "borderline" setting just so I would be able to feel a heavy smooth metal object in my pocket. But common sense has always gotten the better of me.