Next Move ?

Aggressively. Going slow usually lands you in the "friend zone," often because while you are trying to show her your genuine interest in her as a person, she meets someone who pushes her buttons with both hands.

And what is your loss. You were looking when you found her. If it doesn't work out (and it probably won't), you will be back looking.

Had a gorgeous blond I was seeing OTC. Super sweet person in addition to being one of the best bed mates I have ever had. Considered moving to her city and formally dating her. She cut me off, because she left the business for a job that required that she demonstrate "good moral character." We parted on friendly terms and I completely understand her desire to leave the business and enter a new profession before she "aged out" as she put it.

A little heartbroken thinking I would never find another like her...until shortly thereafter, I met a sweet Latina, and then another wild blond (who wasn't that great in bed), and then another Latina. Rinse, Latina, repeat.

Is this a civilian or p4p play? If it's p4p ask her to meet you for a quick casual lunch at which you gift her a nominal amount $. If it goes well, txt her a tactful but candid offer for hotel time that had zero ambiguity.

If it is a civie play someone else will have to advise.

My cynical side tlls me it's a long-con play on her part and perhaps even looking for a gringo to marry to get the ultra desired US citizenship (assuming her immigration status is an issue for her)

I doubt she has been waiting 6 months for you to make your move. You're already in the friend zone.
Use that. Let her know your looking for OTC and does she know any of the dancers that would be open to that. If she volunteers, great. If she makes a dancer recommendation, cool. If she no longer wants anything to do with you, you won't be wasting any more time on her.

I had a sort of similar experience about 10 years ago or so. I met this dancer who was from one of the Eastern European countries. She had been in the States for about 2 months when I met her and she did not speak any English until she got here. I would tell her jokes that she would not get at first. She had a great sense of humor, but she did not understand some of the slang terms, etc. I always took time and explained things so she understood, which she mentioned she appreciated many times. Her
English got better over time and so did our conversations.

She encouraged me strongly to do try out being a stand up comedian, which probably would have worked out if I had time then to devote to it. She always talked about her and I being famous together. She was working on a big project she would not tell me anything about, and her life was crazy busy and so was mine. One day when I saw her she invited me to LA with her and I could not go due to my crazy work schedule at the time. She told me she was going to meet the right people to help her become famous and she wanted me there with her. Later I saw pics of her with some of the hottest women I have ever seen, and found out they were taken at the Playboy Mansion. She rubbed it in many times that I would have been there with her if I had gone with her.

She later told me her project she had been keeping a secret was a movie she was writing and had met the contacts she needed to get it produced in LA. She saw me about a week before the casting auditions (I had not seen her in a few months and she had lost my number) She got my number again and insisted I show up for an audition because I would be famous with her. I met with her, the producer and a camera man and she wanted me to tell some jokes in the movie, and they came up with a last minute addition to the script that would be added if it could be worked into the tight filming schedule. They did cast me for a role. The movie was partly filmed in the club that was my usual go to club at the time. I was on set for one day that my part could be filmed. Unfortunately they ran out of time that day and I was not in it as a speaking role, however I was an extra.

This dancer I mentioned always talked like her and I were going to get married someday. I did not take her too seriously except for the fact that she brought it up so many times. I never did seriously date her or marry her. There were multiple things that kept it from working out.

1. Views on family due to culture. In her culture family was everything and you treat all family with respect no matter what. My family is rough and I do not have much to do with most of them. I have moved on to more positive things. That was a big issue for her that I put a good portion of my family out of my life, and she could not get past that.

2. I think she got seriously jealous of another dancer I was friends with before I met her and continued to get dances from. This was partly because I did not take her too seriously on her hints of a deeper relationship.

3. She also had to "date" the producer in order to get her movie produced.

Things just got weird and we ended up in separate directions. She is a great person and I wish her well.



Here is my advice in your situation,

1. Sounds like she does not see you as a customer, and sounds like you two communicate well, which are good things. You have an advantage in being possibly her first real connection in a new country. If you are interested in a relationship with her, use that communication already in place and just tell her how you feel. Go all in with no reservations and see what happens. If she is not on the same page then you will not have to wonder anymore. Just be prepared for it to go either way.

2. If she is on the same page and she is interested in going farther, you may not want to hang out at that club any more. Even on nights she is not there. If you get dances from other dancers it will probably get back to her and she may not like it.

3. Many people coming from other countries to the United States have high ambitions and are highly motivated to make big things happen. If she sees you as holding her back in any way, she may drop you fast in order to maintain her focus.

-->" I have two concerns: entering the dreaded "friend" zone and never escaping and pushing too hard,too fast and being put in the category of every other guy that's trying to get in her pants and six months of goodwill is gone."

I don't understand the "friend zone" concern at all, or the "six months of goodwill". Actually, I only understand this concern if you value being her friend so much, that you'd prefer to be her friend even if it means never having sex with her, than not have her at all. Otherwise, there's NO risk here to you. Propose seeing her OTC; if she refuses and hates you for it, so what, you were never going to have sex with her anyway, so sayonara, and at least those ridiculous 6 months wasted aren't going to stretch out to 7 months; or you get to have sex with her (yay!). If anything, you should be kicking yourself for voluntarily friend-zoning yourself for 6 months.

Now, the one thing worth thinking about is not "should I ask her OTC?" but "how?". I don't know the answer because I don't understand your relationship. If I like a stripper so much that I'd hang out with her for 6 months without having sex, that would indicate I like her a whole lot; I might come in with an arrangement proposition rather than one-time OTC proposition, I suppose.

Thanks for the comments thus far guys,I appreciate them all. Papi,brilliant minds think alike because I literally thought " long con" as well, but we're six months in and no "pitch" thus far. I do agree with the sentiment that I need to move soon. I work in sales and a no/know today is better than a no/know tomorrow.

Sounds like you’re trying to date her as a civilian. Good luck.

Some PLs think that they screw up their chances of dating a stripper if they get dances from her and become a customer.

My thought is that it doesn’t matter. Just the simple fact that you met her at a strip club disqualifies you as a potential boyfriend.

A lot of guys try to bed strippers for free but as the Reverend says, “ why get something for free when you can pay for it?”😂

Just out of curiosity, why haven’t you gotten a lap dance from her?

As has already been mentioned, you are already in the friend zone. If she wanted more, she would have told you by now or dropped hints and given up because you haven't responded to those hints.

The best advice I ever received about picking up women was "grow a set and ask her" .

I don't know why the friend zone is dreaded by so many men. Women make good friends. Most people could use another friend or two. Friends often help friends get laid.

-->"As has already been mentioned, you are already in the friend zone. If she wanted more, she would have told you by now or dropped hints and given up because you haven't responded to those hints. "

Agree. And I'll go a step further: every time I've managed to FWB a stripper, there was a point where it was very clear that SHE was pursuing ME. This is a common story -- if she wants you to be her booty call, FWB, or boyfriend, she will pursue you, most likely.

-->"I don't know why the friend zone is dreaded by so many men. Women make good friends. Most people could use another friend or two. Friends often help friends get laid."

Absolutely! And a hot friend is a whole 'nother level of wingman. As per the Seinfeld episode, instant credibility among other hot chicks. That said, if you are going to choose to have a female friend, you should CHOOSE it. Not be a little bitch and have that choice imposed upon you, by a chick who you really want to fuck rather than to be your friend.

I would say the only people getting laid for free by strippers are guys she met outside of the club.

PLs have to pony up some dough if they want a chance to hit that pussy.

What does it even mean to be friend zoned by a stripper?

-->"Some PLs think that they screw up their chances of dating a stripper if they get dances from her and become a customer."

This is just an empty statement, repeated by rote, mostly by people who have never managed to date a stripper. Every single stripper I managed to FWB, I was her customer -- and in fact regular -- first. Nearly every story I have heard from **credible** PLs who have FWB'ed or dated strippers, tell that exact same story. And when you think about, it's pretty unlikely a 45+ year old is going to get closer enough to a 21-year-old stripper any other way.

IMO, the "don't become her customer" fiction is propogated by:

- PUAs who need to sell erudite-sounding theories to the complete morons who buy into their theories on women

- PLs who have never dated a stripper, and need an excuse for themselves as to why it hasn't happened

But show me a 45+ year old PL who has dated or FWBed a stripper, and I'll show you a guy who, 95% of the time, was her customer first.

-->"I would say the only people getting laid for free by strippers are guys she met outside of the club. "

Definitely not true. Lots of PLs have stories about this. I met one of my very best ATFs a couple of months before she retired from stripping, although I had no idea she was that close at the time, and we transitioned to FWB just before she quit the club, and stayed that way for over a year until she moved out of state.

Makes sense, Subraman. It’s just YMMV.
I get the impression that you are highly charismatic individual that has a magnetic personality. That pretty much trumps everything even money or good looks.

You can be rich and handsome but if you’re boring, no stripper will be pursuing you for free hookups, lol.

Wow @Subra, that's really impressive. One thing for sure: these girls that I've been having over would never be sleeping with me if I didn't pay them. My days of dating 20-yr-olds is long OVER!

...makes wonder why you bother with SA?

"PUAs who need to sell erudite-sounding theories to the complete morons who buy into their theories on women"

I thought it was a parody the first time I read some PUA nonsense.

Nothing is absolute - can a PL that has been paying a dancer eventually at some point get it for "free", sure, but IMO it's about as uncommon as 10s in a club, possible, but rare or at least very uncommon.

And if it transitions from PL to "free" sex IMO they are doing for some kinda stability from a stable PL to be there when the shit inevitablly hits-the-fan in her life, or she may use the PL to get out of the club whether short term or longer term.

So I think it's rare for a PL to get it for free and even then IMO I think it's often an extension of the club relationship where the PL is a means to an end whether short or longer term - if the PL was mot in a position to help her out I doubt she'd be hooking up with him die free - with rare exception I don't think the hookup is bc she's genuinely attracted-to or genuinely desires the PL, again with rare exceptions IMO.

I'd make sure that your meetings with her are generally sexual in nature.

Ok, let's break this down analytically.

For starters, if she had any interest in you on a civilian level you'd already know. So she doesn't. That means that she'll never love you, never bear your kids or include you in her family events, Also, you won't be sitting with her at Sunday Mass ever. So there is no long term civilian interest to protect.

So now on to Mongerville. After six months and outside communications, she's probably not worried that you're an ax murderer, so you've overcome the initial rapport hurdle. So now that we brushed aside the other excuses and hurdles, the decision is purely a binary one. Either she is willing to go OTC for $$$ with good ol' JB or she isn't.

There isn't much sense in delaying the question any longer. Also, you're kidding if you think that she's confused about what you'd like from her - asking her won't make her view you any differently. And if it does make her behave differently, then who cares? See above about no long term civilian interest to protect. 😉

Now have I waited in the wings for months with some girls? Absolutely as long as it didn't cost me much to do so. But they knew what I wanted from them for most of that time and all I was waiting for was their own personal limits and circumstances to shift, not their view of me. Just play it cool when you proposition her and you should be fine whichever way it goes.

Thanks again guys. One thing I should have mentioned is that her English was SO limited for so long that absent using a English/Portuguese translation app, I don't know how I could have made my feelings known.

JB: but you were her "safe space", no? Even a Portuguese-speaking Brazilian -- hell, ESPECIALLY a Brazilian! -- will understand the universal language of groping and flirting

I don't ever recall a hot-chick saying she fucked a guy bc he was a nice guy - most guys I've known that get pussy don't sit on their hands nor worry about "what she'll think" - IME most guys that worry about what she'll think usually end-up with blueballs instead of pussy - it's hard to get pussy from hot-chicks; pretty-much impossible being passive unless one is a really good-looking guy

Extremes are bad though - one can't look desperate but also not be apathetic

OP still hasn't said if it is a civie or p4p pursuit. As tempting a civie relationship would sounds, it would almost immediately turn from erotic bliss to never ending ss drama.

The language and cultural barrier would make it impossible. Fuck that. This is supposed to be fun.

Subraman,yep good point.Lone Wolf, I fully expect this to be P4P, but given her aversion to taking money from me (beyond stage tips)...who knows how that factors in ? So instead of outright cash, perhaps gifts ?

" ...her English was SO limited for so long that absent using a English/Portuguese translation app, I don't know how I could have made my feelings known."

one of my most successful arraignments was with a Brazilian woman with limited English. Flip phones were the latest and greatest tech so no translation apps.

She found an ad for a night club and another for a restaurant in Newark and showed them to me and wrote Saturday 6 oclock and her address.

I took her to dinner, dancing, shows and then her place, my place or a convenient notel. Those were some great times in the Ironbound section of Newark.

I suspect that she is very much out of your league and you know it, which is why you haven't already asked her out on a civvie date. If I am wrong, then the solution is simple: Just ask her out already.

If I am right, then the p4p solution is also simple: proposition her already. If she is offended then who the fuck cares? You don't have anything now anyway, not really.

IMO you're stuck because she is making you feel special with her behavior and it's triggering an emotional response in you, including some hope that there might be something real. But after several months you already know the truth, which is that there isn't, making the whole thing both temporary and illusory. At best she is keeping you in a holding pattern for SD consideration.

So your choice is to grow a pair and break the logjam or keep circling the airport until you run out of fuel (in this case meaning hope). IMHO it is better to do it on your terms than on hers, but to each his own.

Rick, I don't feel " special", honestly I find her behavior odd. This is uncharted waters for me. I do best with directness,on/off,black/white. I have in fact asked her out twice. Once she said she was taking her daughter to the dentist and and another she said she was spending the afternoon with her daughter at a pool. Shrug. School will be back soon,so that reason/excuse will be gone.

"I have in fact asked her out twice" I may have missed that in your previous posts. if you were clear about asking her out, then she would have accepted if she was interested.

She would not say I have to take my daughter to the dentist, it would be I have to take my daughter to the dentist, but I can do Thursday after 6.

Were you clear about what you want, what you are willing to play if P2P and are you willing to go sometime other than the afternoon?

Do you hear yourself JB? When she is out of school her excuses will be gone? Is that really where you want the bar set with a girl that you clearly like?

You took your shot and missed, twice. When she didn't propose alternatives, you were officially DOA on the civvie side. You're probably SOL on the transactional p4p side too since now she has to factor in your emotions.

The best you can now hope for is that she's grooming you for some SD romance hustle, for which some of the hard nosed ethnic girls are notorious. Worse, if she tries it, IMHO you put yourself in that position in the first place by pussy footing around her for 6 months.

IMHO it's time to salvage whatever self-respect and pride you have left and move on.

@Buford, there are nights in a strip club where I get rejected five times in the same night. Who cares? Just tell her what you're looking for and find someone else if she's not interested.

You left out some key information, you were rejected twice. I think you knew what our advice would be if you had included that in the OP. You already know the answer but if you want to try one more time, decide what you want, tell her clearly. if she says no, walk away and take a break from this club.

OP some tough love here but worth listening to. Bottom line is there is endless opportunity of fine young honeys and you'll find your exotic babydoll isn't that special after all.

Learn from the experience then pursue opportunities that will lead to nakey time. Good luck.

Oh man...TUSCL is no place for the faint of heart. :) To listen to to you guys I f... this up early and it's beyond repair.Noted. My thanks to all of you for your time and thoughts. Should something miraculous happen I'll let you know, but for now put a toe tag on me and slide me into the cool container. :)

JB, toning down my comments, don't put that on yourself. You took a shot and missed. My only "criticism", if you could call it that, is that you're just spinning your wheels now and making yourself more vulnerable in the process.

As someone who enjoyed the foreign born girls when I lived and clubbed in the northeast, I'd just advise that you've got to adjust your mindset if you're used to dealing with American girls. These girls come from poorer cultures that are still largely male dominated. They don't suffer from the gender role confusion that is rife in this country. Where they are from, sometimes their feminine wiles are all the only advantage they have and they are clear eyed about what men want from them, both physically and behaviorally.

Now I would notably except Cuban girls from this description. Things are so fucked up and desperate in Cuba, for both men and women, that the girls who arrive here have little more than base instincts to guide them. For all that I very much enjoyed Russian, Brazilian and a number of Latin American varieties, I nver seem to enjoy my interactions with Cuban girls.

So with all of that said, it sounds now like she's just grooming you because she knows that you want her and you've given her no reason to believe that it won't work. Time to find a little machismo man - leave her by the wayside and fuck around with the next hottest girl in the club. Don't say shit to her or explain yourself beyond that you need to have some fun and then blow her off. Who knows? It may even motivate her to view you differently and give you a shot, but either way it won't hurt you compared to where you are now.

Good luck man.

I don't have much game with women but IME more often than not a guy needs to be assertive to get somewhere with most women - being "Mr Nice" or being "her buddy" often doesn't get you much more than a pat on the head like you were her pet (unless the guy is playing along and doing his version of the long-con)

Papi...to use a football term... you're "piling on." I already " fell on my sword."

WHAT THE ABSOLUTE FUCK!!! @JohnBuford you never ever got dances from her and you wonder why she is not responsive to you? Hell man, WTF are you thinking? Why the hell are you trying to pay her house fees? How unsexy is that? Are you a millennial? It is a goddamn strip club. Girls are there to give lap dances and make money. Custies are there to get lap dances and spend money. Why the fuck did you not get dances from her and try to turn her on? Christ man I always try to seduce my dancer if she is hot and receptive and likes me. Start rubbing her shoulders and back and kissing her back and neck and compliment the hell out of here and tell her how much she turns you on. You gotta fucking let them know in no uncertain terms that you know how to bang the hell outta them! THESE ARE WOMEN BRO! They need to be seduced and turned on and given a reason to get horny too. Once she is comfy with you and happy she will relax and let herself get turned on.

Especially Brazilian women. And Especially is she is smokin hot. She is way out of your league bro. In Brazil if you meet a hottie at a bar and are not kissing her within 10 minutes she thinks you are gay. You are way past the friend zone and are in the arctic by now. There is no recovery. And BTW why do you have oneitis? There are millions of girls everywhere. Why get hung up on one girl? That is for losers. You need to get the skills to cultivate new girls every time you are out and about. Fantasizing on one girl is destructive to your self esteem bro.

^ why don't you tell him how you really feel
😄

"... "piling on." ..."

Don't take it personally - one has to take TUSCL (and strip-clubbing) with the proverbial grain-of-salt.

When one starts a thread on TUSCL unfortunately one does not get to decide when the thread ends - also, the comments are not necessarily only directed at you but often general comments based on the thread's topic that can apply/help many people.