tuscl

Incels....

IceyLoco
But at least a nigga, nigga rich
Tuesday, April 16, 2019 5:53 PM
What are your thoughts? Personally, I don't buy their bs.There are plenty of ugly, broke, stupid, awkward guys out there getting laid....and fucking sex dolls or hookers doesn't change the social rejection these guys perceive to feel. The real problem is their sense of entitlement and their toxic behaviors that prevent them from being able to socially function. I think lack of social skills and the belief that they're entitled to sex without putting in any effort to get it. coupled with an idealization of women's "purity" and a disdain for sexually active women, is the real problem... My main problem is that their delusional belief system has the potential to turn into something like this, and does so... The incel mind: As if hating women will get you a girlfriend [view link]

67 comments

  • IceyLoco
    •
    5 years ago
    This shit is crazy but interesting to read [view link] [view link]
  • Liwet
    •
    5 years ago
    I almost turned into an incel, redpiller, etc. I think a big difference though is that incels have access to women, but not sexually. I didn't have access to women whatsoever so I avoided their fate after I decided to step into a strip club.
  • IceyLoco
    •
    5 years ago
    That's interesting. How didn't you have access to women?
  • Liwet
    •
    5 years ago
    I was a social recluse, and never allowed myself to become acquainted with any girls. I was fucking desperate the first time I walked into a strip club around the age of 19.
  • gSteph
    •
    5 years ago
    Incels are the ultimate assholes. Hell, I knew what lonely and desperate was when I was young, but it ain't the ladies fault. Improve yourself, be nice, keep trying.
  • IceyLoco
    •
    5 years ago
    Liwet, at least you got out of that phase. Trying is the important thing. GSteph, exactly...a person won't get different results doing the same crap over and over again...change is necessary in life. Refusing to grow as a person is inane.
  • skibum609
    •
    5 years ago
    The difference between April 2019 me and April 1979 me is that now I am not in college and work morethan full time. The rest is pretty much the same.
  • Nashoa
    •
    5 years ago
    I think its possible to get pretty lost, lonely and isolated in today's world by accident or happenstance. The problem with the whole incel thing is they just wallow in it and complain instead of taking active measures to try expand their social options or take any risks. Also, most of them are young and have never even tried to begin with. I recently realized that I have almost no friends, nearby, and no real opportunities to casually meet new women to date. I have a full time job in IT for years, upward career, no issues socially talking to people, dated fine in the past to various degree's of success, etc but I still find myself in this spot. Meeting women at work is not an option as frankly these days its a pretty big career risk if you make a pass or it turns bad and secondly all the women are work are married, taken, or way to old. With no friends the friend of a friend option does not exist. It's been a struggle to get out of the situation as I work 60+ hours a week but it is going slowly but surely. I do sympathize with some of the "stacy" stuff as It is always depressing when you see some hot 23 year old girl doing cam, dating some horrible loser, or taking it up the ass in some porn show for barely any money and your left wondering why you can't find a date this month. It can be a real downer if you let it eat at you.
  • CC99
    •
    5 years ago
    Why is there this widespread perception among so many people that loser guys have never tried? If you count every random girl walking around in public I've talked to in my life, every classmate I've talked to thinking it might lead somewhere, every girl I've asked at a party to dance with me, every girl I've met through social connections, hell let's count the matches I've made on Tinder, I've probably approached somewhere near 500 girls in my life. I've actually had a decent number of girls grind on me or make out with me, but not 1 of those 500 girls I've "approached" became my girlfriend. So many people think loser guys asked out 1 or 2 girls, got rejected and gave up. That's not true. Loser guys give up because they've tried dozens or hundreds of times and each time they try it always fails so they logically come to see "trying" as a waste of time and effort. Furthermore, the fact that men are expected to just go through rejection countless times without it so much as fazing us is insane. Getting rejected by 500 girls is going to make you very anxious about approaching them because every other time you've done that, you failed. The biggest successes I've ever had, were when I gave up and stopped trying. There've been times when I walked around a party asking several girls to dance with me, got rejected by all of them, so I gave up and just figured I'd stay for a little bit before leaving, and then suddenly some girl I hadn't asked, didn't even know was there, walks up and starts making out with me. I haven't had that much success with civie girls, but the successes I have had, I never got through being proactive. I have never gotten laid because I seduced a girl, or was proactive about asking her out, or anything like that. Every time I've had an amazing make out session or gotten laid was when the girl approached me first. At this point, giving up is my plan. I've tried being proactive for a long time in the past and it never worked. But you have to give up in a way that works lol. You can't give up and be miserable, you have to get your needs fulfilled or you will suffer to a point where giving up won't work. Getting your needs fulfilled while also "giving up" is what daki pillows, sex dolls, and hookers are for though. Once you realize that the loner life doesn't have to be so bad, it becomes a lot easier to give up but not feel miserable because you did. The problem isn't that incel guys "aren't asking girls out" or "improving themselves." Its that they decide to starve themselves instead of doing something that could relieve them of their pain even if it doesn't make it all go away. But part of the "incel rage" is really caused by all the assholes out there like Jester, and Sircumsinhispantsalot who like to ridicule and make fun of lonely guys because it makes them feel better about themselves. Its easy to see why when incels are constantly mocked by society that they come to see society as the enemy.
  • gSteph
    •
    5 years ago
    >>was when the girl approached me first. >>>At this point, giving up is my plan. Sounds like that might work best for you. Since you identify as possibly 'on the spectrum somewhere', that just might works best, for you. Let them approach; learning that women 'want it too' was one of the things I learned later than most.
  • CC99
    •
    5 years ago
    ^Honestly one of the most understanding replies I feel I've gotten on this topic. My mom actually told me she's going to sign me up for a dating site that is supposed to help autistic individuals. It has a "spectrum compatibility" test like it asks if you like numbers a lot or if you find social situations easy and stuff like that. It has 184 questions apparently so hopefully that will be enough that they can figure just wtf is going on with me before trying to match me up with someone. Learning that girls want it too is actually surprisingly hard. Its like, consciously I know they like it too but my subconscious doesn't entirely understand that girls have sex for pleasure too and not just because they are getting paid or in love with someone. Furthermore, I don't really know what physical features are considered attractive to a typical girl. One time I asked my mom to rate a few guys I knew on the looks spectrum and I consistently would rank guys who she said were 8s as being like 6s. I also typically ranked guys she said were like 4s as 5s. Like every guy to me looks to be about on the same level unless they are truly hideous. If I was never told George Clooney or Ryan Gosling was attractive for example, I would've probably ranked them as a 6 because to me they just look kind of normal. Even now I don't know what exactly is attractive about them I just know that a lot of girls happen to like them.
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    Thanks Icey, I'll read the links [view link] PaulDrake had started an Incel thread mostly to troll me. I posted what i thought. I rejected the concept of Incel and introduced the concept Vocel [view link] I'll read your links and the posts on this thread, and see what I can say. SJG Free - Wishing Well [view link]
  • GACA
    •
    5 years ago
    Good topic. I went through a four year dry spell. During that time I couldn't get laid by fat girls. Truth, this wasn't a social issue, been laid plenty before that. Looking back I realize it was an empathy issue. And based on the article I can infer that a lot of these dudes are lonely because they are extremely self-centered, and lack empathy toward females, who are only means to an end for them. Don't get me wrong, definitely have learned the female brain thinks a lot different than the male brain, and not too many females are going to give you sex because they feel sorry for your social situations. I do agree that we need to have relaxed laws and social norms around sex work. Most of these incel finally get laid by a cute hooker and at least all that unused testosterone will find a better place
  • IceyLoco
    •
    5 years ago
    If you're autistic, that changes everything. You'd definitely be much better off going for autistic girls or downs syndrome or something....Or at least someone familiar with autism. That's why you have the problem you do. You shouldn't feel dejected because of it. Its not your fault. I agree that the typical incel is just too selfish to have empathy for a woman. They completely objectify women and don't see them as humans essentially.
  • CC99
    •
    5 years ago
    Oh I thought I had told you. Yeah I think I'm on the spectrum somewhere. I'm actually surprised to hear you say that but I guess I'm glad you're being understanding now.
  • orionsmith
    •
    5 years ago
    I had to ask two dancers before I heard yes to a private party. Didn't know what a private party was at the time. I try not to drink too much in a strip club, I've had girls try to take me home when I'm least expecting it. Might have been odd coincidences. Now that I'm older, I'm not expecting it anymore. It seems like it's often a girl you may not be interested in that wants you. Except when you spot a hot massage therapist that was going to give a massage to a relative and a few months too late, you hear your relative say she asked if you had a girlfriend because she was looking for a boyfriend. Of course the relative had to say I lived too far away. Not too far. I drive much farther every week now.
  • orionsmith
    •
    5 years ago
    I can understand frustration at the dating game. Girls you act interested in often pretend they aren't that interested. Then girls you don't act interested in keep taking up your time. Sometimes if you go to a bar, you might sit alone. Then when you think fuck it and start doing your own thing, a girl walks up and says you're married aren't you? Then if you say no, she keeps arguing.
  • IceyLoco
    •
    5 years ago
    Why surprised lol ? It makes sense with poorly understanding social cues, etc. You can't judge a person for being on the spectrum. Its not being socially retarded.... its a condition people live with.
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    Autism - Aspergers is bullshit, just a way of justifying the abuse of children and adults. Originate with the eugenics movement, propagated today in the service of Neo-Liberalism. Often could be classed as Medical Child Abuse, a parent who wants to give themselves an identity by driving their kid to the doctor. I've just read so far this only: [view link] Yes, as I had understood, 2 self proclaimed college incel shooters following after Elliot Rodger.\ I kind of deviate from IceyLoco, as we have talked about such things before, him thinking that self-improvement and working out can get a guy laid. But I also don't agree with the Incel's or their world view. I don't blame feminism or seek to get around it. Feminism is what has given young women the permission to have sex outside of marriage. Feminism is not what makes it hard for guys to get laid. I say that college can be a serious problem, a negative environment. So if there is something like Chads and Staceys, then it is in college that you find it. A homogeneous mono-culture. But these self proclaimed Incels are making a mistake in blaming the young women for this. They are players in it, but not the primary actors, more just responders to the social cues. Women are like this. The cause is patriarchy and our economic system, which creates these schools and makes them the way they are. Shouldn't have to be this way. So a young man in such a school may find that it is hard to get laid. And this is not something to blame him for. Understanding this might help his prospects, but he may also find that wanting to get through school with a minimum of problems and unnecessary drama, that the best thing to do is Voluntarily opt for Celibacy. This may result in him prematurely shorting his education too. I say that we should change such schools, and that we also need other institutions as well. Sexual relations are hardball, the women play hard and they are not really ever fair. This is just the way it is, not the results of feminism, not anything new. SJG
  • IceyLoco
    •
    5 years ago
    Women are just as lonely as men though. If not more. They crave attention from the "right" man for them, not just from random men. They have an innate yearning to pair bond.
  • CC99
    •
    5 years ago
    @SJG You do realize that autism is a lot of different things right? If you want to call it a neurodiverse mind then that's fine but it means your brain literally takes in sensory information differently which results in the personality differences you see. It's way too complex to get into all the different ways that it can shape who you are but it's not a disorder or a disability it's just having a different kind of brain. I know you're just trying to make people more accepting of people who are different but you don't really accomplish that by saying "we're basically all the same." You do that by saying "yeah we are different, and that's okay." If people don't acknowledge the existence of autism and aspergers though then it will be harder for me to find people that I will be able to relate to on an emotional level. Not impossible but certainly harder than it needs to be.
  • CC99
    •
    5 years ago
    @IceyLoco I do think girls usually crave attention and affection more than men typically do but men are much more starved of it and have a much harder time finding it.
  • IceyLoco
    •
    5 years ago
    Its not about attention. Its about wanting a real connection with someone. Women crave it so much they'll have sex with guys in hopes of getting it, will do just about anything for men in hopes of getting it.
  • JAprufrock
    •
    5 years ago
    Interesting: "Sex adviser Dan Savage proposes the incel phenomenon offers an argument for loosening our laws and attitudes toward professional sex workers. Others have proposed stepping up development of sex robots. None of these alternatives strikes me as particularly satisfying in the long run. Among us “normies,” incel slang for normal non-incel folks, young people often discover that their desire for sex masks an underlying deeper desire to be loved. An inability to love and care about other people may be the real tragedy of the incel world." I've long argued that legalized prostitution, easy access to pussy, would help with mental illness issues in some (not all, certainly). Of course, some of these nut jobs just need a hug. But I think if they were fucking an actual woman instead of the inflatable type, it would be a good start and might actually lead to the affection they are seeking. Damn, I should have been a psychologist.
  • IceyLoco
    •
    5 years ago
    I don't think sex would cure them or even help with their problem. But I think it can be cruel to not give them the opportunity to experience sexual pleasure. I think a better way to do it than prostitution is to lift the taboo on disabled sex. Like set up dating apps for people with downs syndrome for example. Or with autism, let them fuck people who are like them coz they'll have the most understanding of the condition.
  • CC99
    •
    5 years ago
    I notice that so many of these analysts say stuff like "its not a need for sex, its a need for love" or "its not a need for sex, its a need for control/power." Sex and affection were never really meant to be separated. At its core, sex is supposed to be a strong expression of affection. Love is just a powerful feeling of affection. If you have sex without affection, it won't feel right or it will feel like an upgraded version of masturbation, in which case you might as well have just stayed home and jerked off. Even if you don't necessarily have a deep connection or are in love, you can still like somebody enough to have sex with them, but you should try to like them at least on some level. If you have sex with someone you don't respect or like, its not going to be the same. So when they say "its not really sex, they just find sex as a mask for a deeper desire for love" or whatever, I'm like, they're one and the same. You're basically saying, "I want sex with feelings." That doesn't mean it isn't really about sex though. As for the "power/control" thing. Why are people trying so hard to come up with a reason to say its not really about sex when incels are saying "yes its about sex." One problem is that we're just so hyper-competitive about sex. Sex in a lot of Western countries has essentially become a marker of your social status. I like us being public about sex and not being afraid to discuss it or make jokes about it or whatever but one problem that making sex so public has brought on is that a lot of people have turned it into a sport. We need to remember that sex is fundamentally about enjoying yourself, its about what you enjoy most. That's all it is, having sex should be done for the pleasure it brings you and your partner. Not everybody's sex life falls into the conventional image of an active sex life. If it does, good for them, but if a guy gets more enjoyment out of hugging/cuddling a girl for an hour than he would out of a blowjob, who is anybody to call him pathetic or a loser because he wants a girl to cuddle him instead of give him a blowjob? He shouldn't feel pressured to go for the "cooler thing" when he wouldn't enjoy that as much. If a guy asks you if the girl on his daki pillow is pretty or whatever, don't say something like "its a fucking pillow." Just tell him she's gorgeous.
  • IceyLoco
    •
    5 years ago
    Love generally comes after sex. That's when all the hormones and shit are released. Its natures way of making men stick around in case the bitch got pregnant. When I look at sex and what people are doing. I mostly see insecure people just wanting someone. Girls who are afraid to have sex but think its the main way to get a guy. Guys who want someone but fall into the trap of thinking something better is just around the corner so never be satisfied with a bitch. Its stupid and immature. Thats why confidence is considered so attractive, its rare. The best sex is when people just let their guards down, don't put any labels on it, don't think about it and just do what comes naturally.
  • Nidan111
    •
    5 years ago
    Being on the spectrum will make hooking up much more difficult. Mainly because of your and their understanding of social interaction. I find that my daughter (Autistic) is much more able to interact with her best male friend (Autistic) due to them both understanding each other. Even family had difficulty early on regarding my daughter. She is high functioning, but she definitely sees the world around her much different than others. She is 10 now and the majority of her close friends (all but two and one of the two is her younger brother) are in fact her plushies. Her plushies are her friends. Only once in her 10 yrs of life has she been invited to a party. So, the social awkwardness of Autistic individuals is a VERY REAL ISSUE. Those who disagree are simply uneducated on the matter or have never lived with this issue.
  • CC99
    •
    5 years ago
    @Nidan Unfortunately that reminds me of my own childhood. I didn't go on my first playdate until I was 7 and I didn't have anybody I could really call a friend until I was 10. I got through those years okay though by playing an obscene amount of video games lol. For a long time I was pretty much satisfied just using all of my free time to play video games and watch TV until I started getting interested in girls which motivated me to be more social. I always got along pretty well with my cousin who's further on the spectrum than I am but still pretty high functioning, I didn't really see him all that often though. His stepdad didn't like him playing video games at my house because he thought it made him hyper but my mom felt bad for my cousin and told me it was okay to let him play but to keep it secret lol. I think another thing is that you could see social interaction as kind of being like this iceberg... [view link] For normal people, what they say is what you see on the surface, while what they think is the part that's underneath the water. Normal people get used to interacting with people based on that and intimately understand the thought process involved with that. So when a normal people says something socially insensitive, people assume there is much much more rudeness going on underneath. Autistic individuals have their iceberg completely flipped. What people on the spectrum say is the big part of what they are thinking, and the small part of the iceberg is what is left unsaid. So when a person on the spectrum says something rude, what you heard is pretty much everything they are thinking, and that's it. There's not much more more underneath to worry about. For this reason, I actually think people should give autistic people a chance because of that reason, they are so much easier to be friends with and get along with when you realize that. I've never had a hard time being friends with other people on the spectrum, my friendships with them have always formed very easily. I think normal people with high EQs can also have an easy time forming bonds with autistic people. I think that a lot of autistic guys subconsciously search for nurturing girlfriends with a high EQ because they believe that nobody else really seems to understand them. I know that I personally, become very attracted to any girl who shows a nurturing instinct towards people and animals who are vulnerable and I really seek out girls who have a cute look to them. A lot of the other friends I've made who were on the spectrum also talk about liking gothic, alternative girls. It took me a really long time though to figure out the part about the iceberg. Part of me is still not entirely sure its accurate but its what it looks like to me. This knowledge, however, just made me more anxious around a lot of people because I felt like I could never understand how they were really feeling.
  • CC99
    •
    5 years ago
    I'm kind of frustrated because yesterday, I blurted out "yes!" to something when that was literally the opposite of what I was thinking. And I'm worried that even though I corrected myself, that the guy is thinking that the "yes" is what I was actually thinking. I don't know why it even came out that way though.
  • IceyLoco
    •
    5 years ago
    I have a gym friend who coaches a baseball team for autistic kids. His son is autistic and he talks about him a lot...the problems they had til they found a school with a program for autistic kids. They said his son would never function in life... but the kid loves baseball, guns, making pizza, his dog has helped him a lot as an emotional support animal... was the guy you said yes to gay? lmao
  • CC99
    •
    5 years ago
    Fuck you Icey lol.
  • CC99
    •
    5 years ago
    Dogs are amazing creatures. I feel like my mood is instantly lifted whenever I see a dog.
  • IceyLoco
    •
    5 years ago
    Maybe you should try an emotional support animal. I'm serious...I think its coz dogs pick up on things people don't.
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    A lot to respond to. Icey, women are lonely, but when they restrict it to "the right man", that means that dealing with them could be tough. Lonely women, who are not doing front room make out sessions and back room FS at their local strip clubs, they are just like "Incel" men. College is an age segregated world, so different social groups are competing to see who speaks for that age set. So this is why I am resistant to voices presenting college as one big happy family. Once one is out of college, the world is no longer age segregated, and so tensions are relaxed, and there are also all sorts of people, immigrants, and people who have never been to college. But the imprint is still there. Once in a job interview with a start up company, the President and CEO was only interested in interviewing me about those sorts of things. There is still a socially normative hierarchy. I'll talk more about the fallacy of autism later, but suffice to say, all it is is an imagined ~difference~ being used to create social hierarchy. The best response to the idea is lawyers, if not actual physical violence. Certainly people need to be warned that such talk is harassment, and it will be excused only once. SJG TJ Street [view link]
  • Nidan111
    •
    5 years ago
    @cc99. You explain my daughter well. She states what she feels, States what she sees, and everything is literally out in the open. Everything is LITERAL. If she sees and older person, she will ask them why they are so wrinkled and she will tell them that they are old like her dad. If you tell her that it is raining cats and dogs, she looks at you and says “no, it is raining water!” She was not even capable of telling a lie until about 3 months ago. I actually cried in joy when she told me a lie TWICE in the same week. She is 10 years old and she had NEVER told a lie because a lie made no Since to her. Her recent lie tells me that her brain is now progressing forward in a different time frame than most kids. Anyone who disbelieves autism is “a thing” is simply very much uneducated about the reality of this human condition. They have not lived it and there is no way for them to understand it until they do.
  • IceyLoco
    •
    5 years ago
    SJG, but incels aren't just in college....most aren't. And women settle so much because they're desperate.... I think society, our culture just makes us anti social and that goes against human nature....so we suffer
  • CC99
    •
    5 years ago
    haha @Nidan that's cute. I didn't understand sarcasm either until I think I was 13. From my experience, my "symptoms" are not nearly as obvious or clear as they were when I was a little kid. This has the benefit in that people can't usually tell just by interacting with you that you are on the spectrum but it can also have the opposite effect in that because its not immediately obvious that you're on the spectrum, people might not be as understanding if you're not "obviously" autistic. Moreso, I don't know if I would say somebody becomes "less autistic" its more a matter of learning better how to blend in or understanding people better the more experiences you have. You also start to become conscious of stimming behaviors that you weren't really noticing before and stop doing them. Although I still find myself fidgeting with my hands and fingers a lot and when I talk to a pretty girl, and I have an extremely hard time making eye contact with them. @IceyLoco I have two dogs at home and they are adorable but I don't have a dog at college because it'd be unfair to take my dogs with me there and because I will be graduating in a month, if I get a dog I'll have to introduce the new dog to my dogs back home and that could make everything very weird. I also think that dogs are very expressive emotionally so its much easier to pick up on a dog's emotions than a human's. Although I have a hard time making eye contact with humans, its very easy for me to make eye contact with dogs.
  • Nidan111
    •
    5 years ago
    My daughter has come a long way with her stimming. Rarely see it anymore. However, she still needs a vest at school they tell me. She rarely if ever acts out at home; probably because my wife and kids all understand her very well. She is a very pleasant child. I am teaching her younger brother how to defend her because that is my biggest fear.... people taking advantage of her. He is only 6, but he is a brainiac and I will teach him the finer points of self defense for his sister’s sake. He will learn how to step in and properly defend her honor. Scared me for her. Not too many Autistic females.
  • IceyLoco
    •
    5 years ago
    I've read that its just harder to diagnose in girls...that its sometimes misdiagnosed as anxiety or depression coz of differing symptoms.
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    CC99 wrote,"but not 1 of those 500 girls I've "approached" became my girlfriend" CC, you are not a loser. Really, there is no such thing as a loser. I know that this may be hard to see from where you stand, but girls have to want to be a girlfriend. This is not automatically so. Girls in college, mostly do not want this. Girls communicated with some way other than f2f, mostly do not want this. Having a girlfreind takes tame and money. They will work to wrap you around their fingers and to manipulate you with emotional upsets. They will not explain their reasons for this. They will not even admit that it is so. But the objective should be patently obvious. If you are employed and have a decent car and clothes, girls will be throwing themselves at you. This will be most strong from girls who are out of school and who no longer are living with their parents. They will be having to pay rent, and they will have a job. But for them the job is just a job, it is not their life's objective. Just look at a girl, and she may well walk up to you and ask, "Would you like my telephone number?" And they dress just so that they might get looked at. They know that most guys they encounter will be attached, so they know that they should just try every chance. So if you are employed and have a car and the clothes, just go some place and spot a girl and approach. Odds are you'll get a phone number and from that it can easily be a first date, and that will probably be an overnighter, and she will indeed be your girl friend. Getting instant sex is in my opinion much harder, as is getting first meeting sex. But the young women are dying for car keys and wallet dates, and given such, they will not hold back. What is different about being in college is that you just are not considered an adult by the town girls, and the college girls don't want relationships, and as it is an age segregated environment, there is a vicious and stupid social hierarchy in place. So I want to tell you, don't sweat it. But I know how hard the situation is. Just believe me, out in the work place, the young women hunt young single men. You mentioned your brother. Not knowing him or anything about him, I cannot comment. If you wanted to say more, I'm sure it would be interesting. The work place is very different from the college world. Women in the work place have jobs. But their real ambitions are of an entirely different nature. Being in college, its not that the women are doing anything wrong. The Incel idea is just plain wrong, based on some fundamental misunderstandings. But being in college you are screwed in two ways. One, you are in an arena of stupid social hierarchy which exists because of the age segregation. And you are still seen as something less than an adult. And Icey, I know that you see some of this differently. I feel that our conversations about this continue to be constructive. It is one way in the elite schools: 1. Wealthy Parents 2. Lowest average ages 3. Not conducive to even part time employment, as that does broaden people. In for example CSU and Community Colleges it is not this way. More students are employed, parents less affluent, academic pressure a bit lower, broader age range. First thing after the Elliot Rodger rampage and I met someone who is a Councilor at CSU Fresno. I explained all of this and he strongly agreed. And where I originally go these sorts of ideas was in this book about the High School rampages. [view link] She explains why these shootings occur in White suburban and exurban places where the overall crime rate is very low and where there are far fewer guns in the school and where few students have criminal records. In urban schools everything is reversed, but there are vastly more social niches, so people are able to find their own place and largely protect themselves from extreme denigration. I still say that many young men in elite schools will eventually opt for Voluntary Celibacy, simply because the hasells of doing otherwise would threaten their graduation. Elliot Rodger only saw some of the social forces which were in play. He underestimated the degree to which he was in a stigmatized status. And he grossly overestimated the role which the young women played in establishing this. He was after all being influenced by Right Wing sources, which aim to distort perceptions in exactly this way. SJG Brother Beware [view link] Heiress pleads guilty in NXIVM sex slave case [view link] Paul Tillich Symposium: John Caputo Lecture [view link] Lecture on Frantz Fanon (Decolonizing the earth) [view link]
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    CC99 wrote,"but not 1 of those 500 girls I've "approached" became my girlfriend" CC, you are not a loser. Really, there is no such thing as a loser. I know that this may be hard to see from where you stand, but girls have to want to be a girlfriend. This is not automatically so. Girls in college, mostly do not want this. Girls communicated with some way other than f2f, mostly do not want this. Having a girlfreind takes tame and money. They will work to wrap you around their fingers and to manipulate you with emotional upsets. They will not explain their reasons for this. They will not even admit that it is so. But the objective should be patently obvious. If you are employed and have a decent car and clothes, girls will be throwing themselves at you. This will be most strong from girls who are out of school and who no longer are living with their parents. They will be having to pay rent, and they will have a job. But for them the job is just a job, it is not their life's objective. Just look at a girl, and she may well walk up to you and ask, "Would you like my telephone number?" And they dress just so that they might get looked at. They know that most guys they encounter will be attached, so they know that they should just try every chance. So if you are employed and have a car and the clothes, just go some place and spot a girl and approach. Odds are you'll get a phone number and from that it can easily be a first date, and that will probably be an overnighter, and she will indeed be your girl friend. Getting instant sex is in my opinion much harder, as is getting first meeting sex. But the young women are dying for car keys and wallet dates, and given such, they will not hold back. What is different about being in college is that you just are not considered an adult by the town girls, and the college girls don't want relationships, and as it is an age segregated environment, there is a vicious and stupid social hierarchy in place. So I want to tell you, don't sweat it. But I know how hard the situation is. Just believe me, out in the work place, the young women hunt young single men. You mentioned your brother. Not knowing him or anything about him, I cannot comment. If you wanted to say more, I'm sure it would be interesting. The work place is very different from the college world. Women in the work place have jobs. But their real ambitions are of an entirely different nature. Being in college, its not that the women are doing anything wrong. The Incel idea is just plain wrong, based on some fundamental misunderstandings. But being in college you are screwed in two ways. One, you are in an arena of stupid social hierarchy which exists because of the age segregation. And you are still seen as something less than an adult. And Icey, I know that you see some of this differently. I feel that our conversations about this continue to be constructive. It is one way in the elite schools: 1. Wealthy Parents 2. Lowest average ages 3. Not conducive to even part time employment, as that does broaden people. In for example CSU and Community Colleges it is not this way. More students are employed, parents less affluent, academic pressure a bit lower, broader age range. First thing after the Elliot Rodger rampage and I met someone who is a Councilor at CSU Fresno. I explained all of this and he strongly agreed. And where I originally go these sorts of ideas was in this book about the High School rampages. [view link] She explains why these shootings occur in White suburban and exurban places where the overall crime rate is very low and where there are far fewer guns in the school and where few students have criminal records. In urban schools everything is reversed, but there are vastly more social niches, so people are able to find their own place and largely protect themselves from extreme denigration. I still say that many young men in elite schools will eventually opt for Voluntary Celibacy, simply because the hasells of doing otherwise would threaten their graduation. Elliot Rodger only saw some of the social forces which were in play. He underestimated the degree to which he was in a stigmatized status. And he grossly overestimated the role which the young women played in establishing this. He was after all being influenced by Right Wing sources, which aim to distort perceptions in exactly this way. SJG Brother Beware [view link] Heiress pleads guilty in NXIVM sex slave case [view link] Paul Tillich Symposium: John Caputo Lecture [view link] Lecture on Frantz Fanon (Decolonizing the earth) [view link]
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    "Elliot Rodger: Often abbreviated to ER, he was the covetous nut sack who went on a killing spree because the sorority girls near him were throwing themselves at Chad (see above), and not him. Can be used as a verb to suggest a going on a killing spree." Yes, Icey, read your other two links. In age segregated social environments, there are server social heirarchies. Thing is though, it is not really the young women who are doing this to the men. It is driven by other stuff. And I would also point out at this time that it is out of similar venues that the fallacy of autism - aspergers is fed. We need alternative kinds of schools, and we need counter culture political movements. SJG The Police - Roxanne (Official Music Video) do people like this song? I always have. [view link] above is not really live. Unclear how many people it would take. But this, 2008, is [view link] Clever song, kind of extreme vocal style. Think about what it would be like to try and imitate. Could be transcribed various ways, but probably would use pick up notes. Most rock music uses sharp keys C through E. But this is different, Bb and Gm chord. [view link] use zoom on browser to be able to read: [view link] Brother Beware [view link] Heiress pleads guilty in NXIVM sex slave case [view link] Paul Tillich Symposium: John Caputo Lecture [view link] Lecture on Frantz Fanon (Decolonizing the earth) [view link]
  • CC99
    •
    5 years ago
    You guys should read this blogpost this guy made. [view link] Btw, because I know you guys well, "section I" or "section 1" is supposed to be satirical which you will find out later in the argument of the blogpost. The "criticism" of the person working minimum wage jobs is not the author's criticism but rather a point of comparison to the kind of criticism lonely guys receive. Unfortunately, the author did not make this fact very clear until close to the end of the blogpost, but I thought I should tell you ahead of time so you don't read it and get frustrated.
  • IceyLoco
    •
    5 years ago
    I agree with the need for a radical counter culture and for schools to focus on different learning strategies to better target different kids. But I don't think that wold impact incels much. Most hold right wing views. Most people dislike nice guys coz they're really not nice... they act nice so they can get what they want then act like assholes when they don't get it.
  • Roadworrier
    •
    5 years ago
    One of the best threads I’ve ever seen. I’ll just say that I started spending more time in strip clubs in the mid-90s both local and while traveling (especially to SFO) when I was having difficulties in my marriage (wife had eating disorder and various psychological issues). These were the early days of lap dances, and the Orange County /COI clubs had some model-quality girls. You just don’t see many girls like them in clubs today. Mr J’s in Santa Ana pretty much was air dance city but there were some exceptions and they were spectacular. Of course the place closed down in the wake of murder and drugs and other local intrigue involving owners, managers, strippers, boyfriends, etc. In the 2000s I began traveling internationally to places like Dubai and Germany. Between the Dubai hotel bars (Russian/former Soviet Union, Chinese, African, Turkish girls) and the German FKK club’s, I probably had about 45 different girls (some multiple times), all with condoms (but BBBJs were common). My jaundiced view of sex is this. I’ve never had sex I didn’t have to pay for. Then I lived in Dubai full time for a couple years with family and the fun pretty much laid low, and then I returned to the mid-Atlantic. Still difficulties in my marriage, so strip clubs are still an outlet. So bottom line, strip clubs are largely a step down for me compared to my past experiences unless the women are exceptional and you can get the right kind of service. There were at least two girls from the Baltimore scene who became ATFs (one with occasional OTC). I can’t think of any girl in the clubs today that I would consider to have that kind of potential. Legalizing prostitution/escorts would go a long way toward helping a lot of guys with girl/sexual/ intimacy issues. I think all the current culture is doing is isolating men more than ever.
  • CC99
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    5 years ago
    @Roadworrier Its nice to see an honest an detailed response on this forum. Lots of people here, despite paying for sex on a regular basis like to pretend they are also casanova types who can have sex whenever they want. So in the incel community, you would be called an "escortcel." They call people that when they would be celibate if it weren't for prostitutes. Personally, I don't want to identify as a part of the incel community because of the terrible reputation they have built for themselves. Plus I don't fit into their standard anyway because I have had sex some without paying for it and by their standards you need to be a virgin, but the last time I could was awhile ago so I do identify as a guy who, at the present moment, rarely has sex through conventional means. I have a very active sex life now through unconventional means, but a practically non-existent conventional sex life. As SJG and I have discussed, we believe the sexual revolution is incomplete. People made it very acceptable to have sex however you want through conventional methods, but this revolution left out everybody who isn't capable of having sex through conventional methods, and unconventional methods of having sex are still very stigmatized and lots of people do not accept any sex that isn't acquired through conventional means as legitimate. Even some people on here still talk about conventional methods of having sex as a superior lifestyle. For the most part, we seem to stigmatize any sex that does not, by extension, serve as a means of solidifying your social status at the same time. Sex purely done for pleasure and enjoyment is not as accepted as we act like it is, because otherwise, people would have no problem with those who's sex lives are acquired through unconventional methods. I'd say the sexual revolution is not truly complete until we destigmatize unconventional sex lives.
  • Call.Me.Ishmael
    •
    5 years ago
    CC99 said "Lots of people here, despite paying for sex on a regular basis like to pretend they are also casanova types who can have sex whenever they want." I don't see that. I see a lot of guys with (strong) opinions about navigating strip clubs and strippers, but all know that, ultimately, we're paying for our fun. Which is to say... not Casanovas. And not trying to be Casanovas.
  • CC99
    •
    5 years ago
    @CMI You don't do this, but there's a significant number of people on here who make fun of me all the time for being a college student who is not able to get sex on demand. Guys like Jester, Pistola, SirLDK, EvaSparkling, Shailynn, Flagooner, txtittyfag, iceyloco, and several others I can't remember have all, present or in the past ridiculed me for having a hard time seducing civie college girls. I've even mentioned that I have had sex with a few but that they were all one time hookups so in the long run it didn't really satisfy my goals but I'm still made fun of for, I guess not having hookups all the time or easily? That's really what gave me a kind of crusader like passion for this topic that eventually became annoying was because I thought that guys who visit strip clubs a lot would understand how hard it can be or at least commend me for figuring out a partial solution to the problem but instead, I felt bullied.
  • IceyLoco
    •
    5 years ago
    Paying for sex doesn't solve the problems incels have though.
  • IceyLoco
    •
    5 years ago
    conventional methods = having a girl like you. Thats attainable for any guy
  • Call.Me.Ishmael
    •
    5 years ago
    All of that is separate from your assertion that guys on here think of themselves as Casanovas. I mean, yeah, there's a couple of guys who seem to believe that their strip club methods are worthy of a LinkedIn update. But, the vast majority know that their fun is purchased and we're not playing 3D chess... and we're fine with that. I actually appreciate the simplicity. With regard to the teasing, etc., TUSCL is an anonymous, unmoderated men's locker room. Everyone catches shit for something. How much you care about the opinions of a bunch of people you don't know on the internet is a choice you make, though. And, that helps determine how much more shit you catch in the future. I'll point out that you rise to bait pretty easily, which makes you an easy target. But that's just my two cents.
  • CC99
    •
    5 years ago
    Yeah you're right, I don't know why I treat it with more importance than it ought to have. I guess I'm not really used to what a real locker room type environment is like. The kind of teasing my high school friends and I did was extremely tame. The most we really did was joke that certain people were gay and that certain people always brought the conversation back to sex, stuff like that. But we also never continued teasing somebody about something if they seemed to actually be bothered by it, which I think might be the reason I interpreted it differently than it was intended? Idk, but the internet is different. There is a certain level of thick skin you have to acquire to really exist on the internet peacefully.
  • IceyLoco
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    5 years ago
    This place isn't like a locker room. There are real nut jobs here. Locker room banter is sort of like friendly hazing, there's a real camaraderie there underneath it all.... like you're all on the same team. Here, its just semi anonymous strangers attacking others, one clique trying to legitimate why they troll and harass anyone not a geriatric trick
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    There is no condition of Autism. That is a myth. There is no need for a special autism baseball team. Are we going to assign disability labels for being left handed or having red hair? In times past these were all seen as something like Autism or like Mental Illness. It is all bogus. People have a wide range of temprements. But one thing is certain, when people are living in hostile environments, they have to protect themselves, so they have to become more rigid. Going with disability labels is not a good idea. Mostly all it does is let abusers off of the hook. SJG
  • IceyLoco
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    5 years ago
    What would you label severe autism as then? I think the whole spectrum thing is blown out of proportion....but autism itself...
  • kingcripple
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    5 years ago
    You mention guys who are stpid, ugly, awkward. You never mention disabled guys. That's my problem
  • IceyLoco
    •
    5 years ago
    Physical disabilities are different.... A man with such a disability will have problems not because of himself or his disability but because of how he may be perceived by some women. I think dating other disabled women is probably the best bet. Or at least someone with an understanding that a disability isn't an "inability"... It must be tough.
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    I wouldn't call autism/aspergers anything. Mostly it is just white coat assisted child abuse. Usually both the parents and the doctors are coequally guilty. I have not read this anywhere, but my suspicion is that in primitive societies the one we would all autistic gets made into the shaman. And I know from reading decades ago that a future shaman is separated from all peer culture socialization by bullying systems. They are placed under the sole care of a non-parental adult shaman. Whereas with muggles, adulthood comes with puberty, with a shaman reaching adulthood takes much longer, maybe out to age 30, and it involves much risk and ordeal. There will be vision quests and then the finding of a totem deity. Again, not having read this anywhere, if I had to pick someone to exemplify what is being called Autism, I would pick the fictional character Simon, in "Lord of the Flies". He was sitting in a thicket, communing with nature, when Jack and his pig hunters were chasing a pig, and broke in upon Simon. Simon would be the first of the boys they would kill. In France they don't really go along with the idea that there is such a thing as autism. They reject all these horrible behavioral abuses. Instead they see most of it as being what I call, Maternal Hatred Syndrome. So they see it as psychosis and treat it with Lacanian Psychoanalysis. And for those age 0 to 4, they have these La Maison Verte centers, and such analysis is just play therapy. And the parents are welcomed to be there. "The impact of Françoise Dolto. In a 1985 book she defined autism as “a reactive process of adaptation to an ordeal” in which the “affective or symbolic relationship with the mother” has been lost. " That in France they don't really go along with the idea of autism, makes most American Autism Advocates livid. This had started with the parents. Most of the autism groups are just defensive formations of the parents. But now there are survivors, those labeled with autism, who are fighting tooth and nail to defend it as real, and they are livid about France. What could they object to, play therapy pre-school like centers? They object because the understanding is completely different, and so people are learning that this is just negative environment induced rigidity. This blows the minds of the Americans who are attached to the reality of the concept Autism. Mostly if one takes the Autism Advocates view, all the identification does is exonerate abusers. So because the American, UK, and Australian are up in arms, you see articles attacking France like: [view link] Autism advocacy always starts with parents trying to defend themselves, then it continues with those who personally identify with the label and its implications. In Latin America they don't really seem to take autism seriously either, just a temporary condition, caused by a negative environment, best dealt with via European style psychoanalysis. What I would stand by is: [view link] They analyze it fully and show how as the assessment rate climbs higher and higher, it gets more and more gender skewed. So unless you think it is carried on the Y chromosome, then genetic arguments are nonsense. As they explain, the real cause is simply neo-liberal capitalism. And in the UK they tie this to Tony Blair. Its a resurgence of the eugenics movement. One of the authors had accepted the label. Then rejecting it and taking it off of his resume, he got for the first time in his life employment and pay which he felt to be commensurate with his age and abilities. This book also traces it out, from the roots of child psychiatry and the eugenics movement: [view link] And then if one simply reads some of these self-professed autistics, they talk about all that autistics cannot do. But right in their book, they demonstrate that they themselves are way way ahead of the bulk of the population in such abilities. If someone is being hit with such a label, then they need three things: 1. A lawyer 2. Military training, Commando training, and A**a**ination training 3 Some nice steel toed 187 boots I still stand with Timimi etal, saying that Autism - Aspergers does not exist. Timimi says that it could be just a difference in how young one is relative to the other children when they first get outside of the house to play. Mostly it is just targeting a child. Taking such a label makes you fodder for a resurgent eugenics movement. I do not recommend this, I recommend a forceful, legal, and violent response. So if you have to say there is some difference, mostly in temperament, I would say that intelligence, sensitivity, and mystical abilities amount to a Shamanic Experience. SJG Frantz Fanon [view link]
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    I think Foucault wrote about "Biopolitics" This book is good. Difficult reading, but I read much of it, and it is coming from Foucault. [view link] Yes, it is in Foucault's "Birth of Biopolitics" [view link] I don't think "Birth of Biopolitics" is a book though. [view link] "In the work of Foucault, the style of government that regulates populations through "biopower" (the application and impact of political power on all aspects of human life)." [view link] Anti-Psychiatry was an idea popular in the 60's and 70's. But there always were ambiguities as to exactly what it did or did not mean. And then today, it does not seem to have many adherents. And then starting in the 1980's, the Recovery Movement exploded. What had been understood as political and social problems, were turned into personal problems. Psychotherapy has proliferated, Psychotherapists giving out more lethal drugs than Psychiatrists do. And then things like ADHD-Autism-Aspergers exploded in the 1990's. And a lot of people seem to believe that Anti-Psychiatry means simply Psychotherapy and Recovery. So I say that we need a newer and broader term then Anti-Psychiatry. May I suggest the term Anti-BioPolitics. SJG Race does not create racism. Racism creates race. [view link]
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    Foucault and Biopolitics [view link] PHILOSOPHY - Michel Foucault [view link] Biopower: Why We Don’t Revolt [view link] SJG Soror Syrix [view link] Alvin Lee – The Bluest Blues [view link]
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    Neo-Liberalism, that's what it all comes down to. SJG Kabbalah, Magic & the Great Work of Self Transformation: A Complete Course [view link] A Brief History of Neoliberalism by David Harvey 1/5 [view link] Sammy Hagar - Standing Hampton - 1981 [view link]
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    There are of course social hierarchies in colleges. All the more so in the more ellite schools. Younger average age, higher median affluence level. But what is a mistake is to blame the young women and feminism for this. That is accrediting to them more agency than they really have. Overall, feminism continues to be a huge help. Its just that most of the young women don't even understand it, let along count as frontline fighters. So what is better is to find ways of deflating and getting around said hierarchy. Eventually I think it means getting out of the college, or at least getting out of that kind of college SJG Deep Purple Knocking At Your Back Door (Live) [view link]. [view link]
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    At UC and the private schools, most of them, frats and sororities are a big deal. Not everyone is in one, but they still do create a clear social hierarchies. Not all social life depends on this, but a lot of it still does. College can be a weird place, and all the more so for one who has never before lived any place except for with their parents, and also has zero employment experience. It can be a really negative environment. SJG
  • IceyLoco
    •
    5 years ago
    Schools in major cities don't really pose those problems. You can have a social life that's separate from your school life. Now a days, a lot of schools in CA are basically commuter schools and that's the growing direction in major urban centers. Plus there are student groups for just about anyone.
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    CSU and Community Colleges are interned as commuter schools. UC still isn't. Some of the UC's, I think Berkeley, Los Angeles, and San Diego, do not even accept any type of transfer students anymore. So yes, this really is about social hierarchy. But no matter where you live relative to the school, the academic programs are often extremely competitive, they are impacted, more people forced out and trying to get in, than are in. So you really do not have time for much. Social life involving non-current students will be disaster. They run on completely different daily rhythms. And then without at least part time employment, a guy will be seen as immature anyway. I can relate this, my first summer job. I found that compared to school it meant two things. 1. The full time summer job left me with so very much time that I felt like I could do anything. School was so much an around the clock sweat that I had no idea how much full time employment was not like that. 2. Though school was an all encompassing time demand, it actually left me lots of energy. What I was learning was so interesting that it just stimulated me. By comparison, full time employment, beyond a point I was just selling my time. So it left me with lots of time, but still intellectually deadened. My point here is just to emphasize how time demanding impacted academic programs can be, and all the more so for one who not only wants to graduate, but to learn as much as possible and to get the best grades possible. Another story, my junior year, someone was playing matchmaker and fixed me up with this girl H, who was known to people I knew. She was nice. I liked her. Friend of mine J. did something really cool. He loaned us the use of his tandem bicycle. So we were to take a ride. That worked out real will. Fun. H. was real nice, and I was an avid bicyclist. I knew all the routes and we went quite far. For whatever reason I just didn't really feel a pull though to further engage with her and to try and make things happen, too busy with school. Also my roommate was washing out of school, washing out of my department. A big part of it was that he was spending most of his time in bed with H.'s roommate. Both of the girls, they were not really the most sought after sorority and rich types. They didn't have a mountain of impractical clothes to wear. They were jsut girls who likely would just want to get married. Didn't seem like I should get involved with H. So fast forward about 5 years. J. is still my friend and I find out that H. had gotten pregnant and married and had dropped out of the college. If I had been involved with her, that would have been me with her. But now she was divorced and had two kids. J. was with her, living with her and the kids. Things were working out. Her ex insisted the kids go to this private Christian school, which was not only a waste of money, it was indoctrination. J. was able to get that stopped. Point being, it is far easier outside of college to get involved with a woman, than when one is in a highly competitive and impacted program. SJG I only like this heavily track overlaid studio recording of this song, not any of the live versions. Cause of the singer's style. And I don't so much like the other guys who usually sings this either. [view link] Suspicious Mind - Elvis Presley [view link] Glenn Campbell, experience really shows, in my opinion. They have a four string bass player, but notice the guy who solos on the six string bass. [view link] Try a Little Tenderness [view link]
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    I don't go along with the concept of Incel, but there are all kinds of social hierarchies in play everywhere. SJG
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