Beating Deja Vu
san_jose_guy
money was invented for handing to women, but buying dances is a chump's game
A question put to a friend:
Since you seem to have some connection to the strip club industry, I ask you this, how do we beat Deja Vu?
Now I give them credit for unbranding some of their clubs. That makes their impact less severe.
But it is still a problem, most of all in metros where due to public sentiments, LE has to allow quite a bit. DV undermines what would otherwise be awesome clubs.
Not concerned about places with lots of strip clubs, where they run a few. That could even be constructive. Concerned about places like San Francisco where they have obtained a near monopoly, and about places where they have taken over on the heels of LE, like Greenville South Carolina.
I say that the way to beat them is just to open more clubs. But in San Francisco, rents are very high. And the DV System clips money off of the marks who are born every minute, while staying below the threshold where LE would act.
DV says that in San Francisco they have kept clubs open which would have otherwise closed because of escalating rents.
So how do we beat them?
SJG
Jean Michel Jarre - Equinoxe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHZZaC4s…
Since you seem to have some connection to the strip club industry, I ask you this, how do we beat Deja Vu?
Now I give them credit for unbranding some of their clubs. That makes their impact less severe.
But it is still a problem, most of all in metros where due to public sentiments, LE has to allow quite a bit. DV undermines what would otherwise be awesome clubs.
Not concerned about places with lots of strip clubs, where they run a few. That could even be constructive. Concerned about places like San Francisco where they have obtained a near monopoly, and about places where they have taken over on the heels of LE, like Greenville South Carolina.
I say that the way to beat them is just to open more clubs. But in San Francisco, rents are very high. And the DV System clips money off of the marks who are born every minute, while staying below the threshold where LE would act.
DV says that in San Francisco they have kept clubs open which would have otherwise closed because of escalating rents.
So how do we beat them?
SJG
Jean Michel Jarre - Equinoxe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHZZaC4s…
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Might you describe the effect their management of a club has?
As far as a boycott, that is at best half of a solution. We don't really want to be without strip clubs. Don't you agree that it is important first to get more clubs open?
SJG
But the the key negative turn, in my view, was when DV took over the high mileage leaders, or the "off the hook" clubs, New Century and Market St. Cinema.
After this take over, Spectator Magazine started calling these "McStrip Club". Then Spectator went out of business itself.
A boycott alone is not the answer. If we can get some new clubs opened, the problem will take care of itself.
Question though is what types of clubs, and how, and all the other details?
SJG
Well, at the wildest clubs in the US and Mexico, front room action rules, especially front room makeout sessions. This mostly would include DFKing + FIVing, and maybe even DATYing. Possibly even some front room BBBJ.
This is the way to soften a girl up before taking her to the back room.
As far as DV being so big, yes girls are not likely to defy them. But on the other hand that makes DV a target for LE, so they can't really allow what an independent strip club allows.
I personally know of girls who have left DV for wilder places because they want to be able to do it their own way. They want to be the free agent, not the product which is being sold. Doing more for less money is not really objectionable to them, if they are the ones driving it.
SJG
We had a club open here that is not Djv and it is finally starting to impact Djv business. How: the dancers are all going to that club because the house fee is $60. The two DJV clubs that are nearest to this newer club are getting a reputation of having no girls working, this, customers will stop coming.
What do you think of this??
PinkSugarDoll, I understand what you are saying. And I hope that the new independent club with the lower access fees makes it.
Now you do understand that it is because of the strip club environment that the dances get to make their money, and so the house does have the right to charge high access fees. They could get the money at the door, at the bar, or at the dance booths. But many feel that the total amount of money in play will be higher if they get the house money off of the dances. And then the other big variable is how many dancers they hire and schedule per shift, relative to the patronage levels. Probably DV is keeping that in the sanity level, as they want the girls to follow the rules. As clubs get wilder, they go more just to taking all applicants, not having it rigged so that girls make money. Doing it that way, likely some of the girls will not be inclined to follow many rules.
But we hear lots of stories about DV being unnecessarily harsh about fining dancers for this and that. And then the girls end up tipping out bounces to be allowed to go over the limits. Not a nice situation because this gives the bouncers authority they should not have, letting them become something like pimps.
I think the main problem with the DV approach is that it is dependent on over regulation of the dancers.
Let me make a clarification here, I talked of "Beating Deja Vu". Well I don't mean by trying to make more money than they do, or by trying to run more clubs. I couldn't care less about any of that. I am only concerned because of what they do when they take over clubs, and how that changes the clubs, and how that in turn changes the whole metro.
So I am not interested in trying to interfere with their clubs, boycott them, or in trying to squeeze their cash flow. Could not care less about that. I just want to see more clubs open because the independent clubs will be better, and then that will open the metro up more. Small operators are more likely to take risks. And also, smaller operators don't have that much of a whip to crack. So they have to be more reasonable in working with the dancers if they expect them to keep showing up.
Now about dancers, some very inexperienced dancers want a highly restricted club, because they feel that the club rules protect them from too many expectations, and protect their income. But also understand that it is precisely this which give that operator the huge whip to crack. They have convinced girls that it is a huge privilege to work there.
So often as girls get more experienced they do get more accustomed to higher mileage levels, and most of all what they want is to be able to do things their own way. So I have known girls who left DV, and went to wilder clubs, even if that would amount to doing more for less money. They don't actually care about that if it will be they who are in the drivers seat, if they will be the ones making the decisions, instead of they being the product getting sold.
So if we can agree that the objective should be to let the women do it their own way, as much as possible, then we are on the same wavelength.
It was a trip for me to see that we have had an on and off again underground circuit, where the dancers do do it their own way.
And then of course, the mileage can be very high. And it is not uncommon for dancers to be coming and going as they wish, the place not using any schedules. The girls know the patronage levels at different times of the week, and they also know how many girls will typically be there, so they can make their own decisions. The bosses try to keep as many on the roster as possible, knowing that some will need to really push the envelop in order to make money. The bosses also know that it is better to get money by having more girls there, charging a modest access fee, than to have just a few and charge very high fees.
This way their is less head butting with the management, no issue of showing up on time or about leaving early, or about coming and going. And as far as what the girls do with customers, the management knows that the most important rule is that they just always be looking the other way.
So to as large a degree as possible, let the girls engage with guys as they wish. Only impose limits when they are a genuine legal necessity. And so some will be emphasizing stage tips, some will be raking in front room friendliness money, some will be getting money for back room trips, and some will be likely engaging in immediate OTC, and then sometimes coming back after. Don't worry about the stage order, some might not even use the stage at all.
Are we the people reading this in agreement that this should be the objective, at least to the degree possible?
And are we also in agreement that Deja Vu's management philosophy is the opposite of this?
And thank you Subraman for the info on San Francisco CH and MBOT, as that is also my fear. DV definitely has those clubs in their immediate sights. Owners sell out voluntarily. I don't think it has anything to do with LE. The way DV runs the clubs, I refer to as the modern version of a clip joint, selling more visual fantasy and a compromised delivery, it can pay higher rent. Most strip club customers are chumps.
So Jackslash, I don't think bribery of LE is in play.
SJG
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But the way I would do it would still not be this way. If you want a wilder club, a key is just to hire a lot more dancers, not to worry about a minimum looks standard, and just let them do whatever it takes to get money. But as such, access fees do not need to be high, and they should not be high. I saw how this worked on a regular basis in our underground Mexican Bar circuit. And those girls were tremendous fun.
Actually, I have an idea where dancers would simply pay a cover charge to get in. They would not be employees of any type. And that cover charge and the customer cover charge would be all the house got, no VIP room fees. So the dancers are really just customers, or members.
Now, I want to raise another concern about Deja Vu. Based on communications I have received, it appears that they likely have their unbranded clubs in many more places than I was aware of. I knew of San Francisco and Detroit. But it sounds like it is also Portland, and then maybe Seattle. But it also may be some of the places in the South West which I have been particularly interested in, like Las Vegas? Phoenix? and I wonder if even in the San Gabriel Valley?
And then do they now run the clubs in Greenville South Carolina? Is that how they operate, coming in on the heels of LE? Is it possible they've gotten the Harem Club in Dayton, I wonder? And would it even be possible, Arnies in Harvey Illinois?
How do we find out?
I would say that a hallmark of a DV club is just an over regulation of the women, regulating how they conduct themselves in the front room, and often when the legal requirement for this is quite questionable.
And then do they also do this in TJ? I do not know. That would be a real same if they did.
SJG
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Many talk about DV fining dancers for all manner of things, like not being at the stage on time, or not showing up on time. So that is a kind of regulation. Dive clubs don't do that. Working there is not that big of a privilege, so the boss has to be reasonable with the dancers. They need to try and recruit and retain dancers.
Are you talking about branded DV clubs, or unbranded DV clubs. Probably they regulate dancers much more in the branded clubs, as their branding makes them a target for LE.
I believe that the reason they unbranded many of their clubs, like in San Francisco and Detroit, is that in those metros things can go further. And so with the brand name removed, they probably feel that they can go somewhat further.
But the problem is that they are still enforcing arbitrary and unnecessary rules.
I think you probably mean that they don't try to regulate how far things go in the dance booths and the VIP rooms?
Well that is a factor, but as I see it there is something more fundamental going on here.
Contact strip clubs, or lap dancing started in the late 1970's in San Francisco MBOT. What it meant was lap sitting. No booths or back rooms. So whatever was to happen would happen right there. And this would prove to be the key to Jim and Artie's defense at trial. Since it was all front room, it was not really for sexual gratification, it was an audience participation cabaret show. Now Jim and Artie did prohibit FS, and they did fire girls who violated. But their basic argument could be considered to cover that too.
So I first got a taste of this, pre-DV, when I spotted an extremely cute black girl on the sidewalk. I figured she was an office worker. So I was going to try and take her to lunch. But she ducked into New Century.
So I paid the cover and in I went. Finally she came out for her set, and stripping down to just high heels and makeup, she finished up with lots of showy open tongue kissing with another girl. And then she came off the stage and jumped onto my lap.
So in porno movies they often have open tongue girl kissing, and I just FF past it. But in real life it is a powerful turn on. And I could not help but telling this girl so. And she instantly responded by telling me how much she was enjoying it. So I got way way more than I ever could have hoped for. That girl was just a treasure. That she could be so physically open with me, a total stranger, just blew my mind.
So what booths and back rooms add is not necessarily more mileage, they just give the house a bigger cut, and they also make it easier for the dancer to control it, not having to psychologically open up, as this girl had.
So we have it in innumerable accounts, and even videos, that if a guy goes to the TJ HK bar, or even more in LC or BT, and the most in Playboy Bar, that soon a girl will have both hands on his head and be ramming her tongue into his mouth. If she wants to get the session, and show that she means to deliver, what better way. And if the guy wants to get to know her, no better way to start off.
One learns that you don't take girls into the back room to see if they are good, you take them into the back room because they are already good in the front room. A front room makeout session is always the gating item.
And really this is not unlawful, the law certainly is not going to be interpreted that way in SF.
But the main regulation DV enforces is a minimum of front room interactivity. This still leaves the back room, but in the back room the girl can still be on a service delivery script, and this is not good.
So the way to change this is not to have a discussion about it, but just to soften her up with words, and then to kiss her. And then let that makeout session develop, and to do this in the front room. Usually talk, coming on to her helps. And the guy should be feeding her money.
But this is the main change, as I see it, that DV made. They severely regulated front room friendliness. And this is one of the biggest potential benefits of strip clubs over other venues, as they are hang out places, so they should be open to unstructured engagement.
Numerous accounts of US dives, starting with the black ones, of girls who will jump on a guys lap, and then start licking his neck and nibbling at his ear. I take that as defying him to start making out with her. A couple of words to further soften her up is a good way to proceed.
And then TUSCLERs have explained that in the mixed race dives, all the girls to it that way.
When there are no rules, the most aggressive girls rule. In our local underground Mexican Bar circuit, kissing is prohibited, but it still goes on. I would usually start them off with open tongue kissing. Girls seem to do it because in those places they all want all the OTC they can get.
And even in our local no touching clubs, girls wanting to line up immediate OTC will still sometimes start DFKing.
One time a girl was DFKing as part of her stage set, anyone who gave her $1, seemingly because she wanted back room action, and as the place was slated for closure, the back room mileage had radically escalated.
And in another club, a girl was lying down on the bar and moving from one guy to any other who gave her $1. And her DFKing as off the charts.
So, in San Francisco, they are not going to try and say DFKing is unlawful. It would no be unlawful to be kissing pretty girls out on the sidewalk in front of the club.
Now I will say, that in DV clubs girls have recited to me the "I don't kiss speech", only to be demonstrably reversing themselves not too much further along. But it still takes time patience and money to work them a bit to get it to go this way.
And then:
"There are all kinds of clubs on this forum. Not just the flashy neon high energy music blasting clubs. Some clubs here are more laid back where there are guys and gals sitting out in the front room watching the stage from a distance. Gals are sitting on laps and DFK is prevalent. Not at every table but some of the gals use this technique to get guys to the back room faster. "
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…
The potential is huge, of how things can go with a girl softened up via a front room makeout session. But this is where DV strikes as they have figured that front room regulation:
1. Gives them more money
2. Creates an impression of less mileage in the back rooms.
3. Lets the girls more easily keep it all bounded
4. Lowers the typical back room mileage as the girl is not opening up, so it is really all just about money.
This is why I say that without that front room makeout session, buying dances is a chump's game, and that what DV runs is the modern version of a clip joint.
SJG
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SJG
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I have also been informed that in some metros in some clubs, things are looser than others.
Do they limit front room friendliness ( makeout sessions ) in TJ?
Even in the US they are not illegal.
SJG
My own view is that independently owned clubs are usually going to be better. Once an operator has multiple clubs, then they are a target for LE, even for federal LE. And they are also going to be less likely to take risks because doing so would be to risk their entire chain.
Now an interesting case, Platinum Plus was a chain, and they were reputedly the greatest of clubs. But now there is little left.
I am not claiming that these large operators, like DV, are doing anything unethical, immoral, or illegal. And I could not care less how much money they are raking in. I just feel that they have ruined a great strip club metro, San Francisco.
Now, PinkSugarDoll, thank you again for your info. So both branded and unbranded DV clubs. May I ask, how do you know that some clubs are unbranded DV? How do you know that other clubs are not unbranded DV?
So some dancers work there with no schedule? Come in as they please? I would consider that an improvement. Probably unbranded DV only?
Can dancers leave and return as they please, that I would also consider a big improvement. We had a place like that, fantastic.
DV insists that they do not use any dancer fines anymore. I don't specifically know if that would also apply for a dancer with a schedule who did not show up.
You talked before about them not regulating dancers at all. Usually this would be the hallmark of the best possible of strip clubs, the kind of a club which is ruled by the very most aggressive of girls, and so where front room friendliness is standard.
I suspect that what you mean is that they don't try to impose any ceiling on what goes on in the booths and back room. You know that over the last 25 years now, most US clubs have gone that way. Very difficult to know what goes on in the booths and back rooms, and the management usually does not want to know.
People have posted about "Chair Forts" in Dallas and Houston, improvised privacy walls in the early days of maximum mileage.
But my main complaint against DV is that they turn the place into a clip joint, by severely restricting front room interactions. And these are types of interactions which in a place like San Francisco are not going to get anyone in trouble.
In the wildest of US clubs, lap sitting is common, and DFKing can also be common, especially for those who are generous with the girls and who know how to talk to them and how to gently steer it that way. If one does this, then what happens in the back room will be awesome. And if they want, they have a good chance of moving to waking up in the mornings with the girl regularly.
But if a guy buys a dance without this front room physical intimacy, the risk is much higher. The girl has not opened up psychologically, and she does not need to. Usually words will soften her up, but DFKing is what really gets her to just let go. And the front room is the place to cross over into this territory.
In San Francisco, LE is not going to be able to claim that this violates any law. But restricting it does force chumps to buy dances, and be spending their money for mechanical interactions which only serve to exacerbate their own sexual frustration.
PinkSugarDoll, where you are and with the clubs you know, how do things go in the front room?
When a guy walks in, is a girl climbing on him before he has sat down, and before his eyes have adjusted to the dark? At the wildest dives in the US, girls do this. One girl, or a bunch?
When a guy is seated, will a girl go for his lap? If it doesn't work out with that one, then does another try? Wildest dives in the US, especially on the day shift, this is what happens. And if a guy wants to steer it to DFKing, then usually it happens. And often the girls are really making it go that way themselves, as they want to escalate the interaction.
Feel ups, can guys just do like they do in TJ, present a girl with a suitable tip, and then start feeling her up, and maybe even DFKing her?
Where I live, Santa Clara County, LE would say that all of this is illegal. They get away with this because the vast majority of defendants plead guilty, so it never goes before a juty. But in San Francisco they are not going to try and say this. And this is because Jim and Artie Mitchell stood up to Dianne Feinstein and refused to plead guilty and went through a felony jury trial. If the Prosecution cannot convince a jury to see it their way, then they can't keep on trying to enforce that interpretation of the law.
The front room is not going to be the place for maximum mileage, but it is the place where a critical rapport between strangers is established.
SJG
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But in the modern version of a clip joint, that is not allowed, it is forced into the booths and back rooms.
Clubs where girls lead with lap sitting? Front room GFE common? Back rooms are maximum mileage?
SJG
If one girl declines, I believe another one, a smarter one, will jump right in to take her place.
It takes some experience to know how to talk to girls in situations like that, but a strip club is a good place to learn.
By prohibiting such front room friendliness, I don't think a club is losing income. Most of the time, with the front room make out session, those two will end up in the back room.
If the guy did not bring enough money, then probably that's because he didn't understand how things go. So club income is not being lost. Likely he will be back with more money.
Sure, you can see the girl OTC. But if it can be done in the club, then you should get a first load into her right there in the club.
Making the guy cum in the front room, no, that is probably not a good idea. But making the girl cum, that's fine because they have such a high capacity and such short recharge times.
So by forcing the action into the back rooms the club has become a clip joint.
If you want the girl to open up to you, that front room makeout session is the key. If she is going to open up, she will do it in the front room. If she insists that it has to be in the back room, then she probably is not going to open up. Intense DFKing really does it. So the front room is the place to explore that territory with her.
Clubs are only increasing their income by restricting the front room when they have very little competition, and when they are restricting the size of their rosters.
I can see prohibiting things which will make they guy cum in the front room. But even if that does sometimes happens, who cares.
The rest of it no, front room makeout sessions, DFK, FIV, even DATY, they all help get more money going into the club from the back room.
Sounds like at this place Skin Cabaret in Scottsdale, such front room makeout sessions are standard. Though it might be just one girl, and some don't find her attractive. But she is giving what she can, and she is making money for the club. Most of the guys will take her to the back room to continue. What she is doing is good. Most of the time when a girl is that forward and open, a guy will look favorably on her and give her whatever she wants.
We need to get more clubs opened in places where front room mileage is being unnecessarily restricted.
SJG
SJG
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For myself, I've always encouraged girls to sit on my lap. But in our local strip clubs it is really zero touching. So there is no lap sitting.
But in most other situations, girls do respond favorably and accept the invitation.
Usually it is not hard to get a girl to go from there to DFKing. One just has to learn a bit how to talk to them. And it does not usually take much.
SJG
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Also front room FIVing? Front room DATYing?
You know that then what goes on in the back rooms will be mind blowing for both parties.
Do you see any evidence that girls are having to tip out bouncers to be able to do this in the front room, going over the official limits and getting to do it their own way?
I wish I was in your metro's clubs right now!
SJG
Mike Oldfield - Moonlight Shadow (live in VH1 studio)
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Do you see many front room makeout sessions going on in any of these clubs?
SJG
The Good, the Bad and the Ugly - The Danish National Symphony Orchestra (Live)
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Are the guys just too timid, to unwilling to show some generosity, to interested in being chumps and "buying dances", not steering the conversation themselves?
Is there an actual rule against such? Do bouncers actually intercede?
Usually there will be some aggressive girls who want the back room action and want the OTC action, and so they will lead with DFKing.
Sure, if you talk to dancers, they would probably say, No Way! Just read stripper web. But actually in that situation, on the guy's lap, and trying to get him into a maximal back room gig, I don't think they need much encouragement.
Can you see any reason that these makeout sessions are not happening?
SJG
Tasmin Archer - Sleeping Satellite
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live 1992
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live acoustic 2008
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US Version
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And so what exactly is the rule?
Usually lap sitting goes immediately to nuzzling and titty massaging, then increasing levels of DFKing, then it continues below the girls waist.
Bouncers are actually watching the cameras, and do they actually intercede?
Do all of the girls follow these rules, still waiting to hear what they are. What happens to the girls who don't follow them? Girls never get bouncers to lay off?
SJG
Jimmy Smith - The Sermon
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SJG
Art Blakey & the Jazz Messengers - Moanin'
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SJG
>We had a club open here that is not Djv and it is finally starting to impact Djv business.
I'm pretty sure I know what club you're talking about that's changing things, and it explains a whole lot. In the case of the downtown core DJV, fuck 'em. Prices are too high - if I'm going to spend my limited entertainment budget at a club, I'm going where the dances are cheaper (and better.)
It's not great for the dancers obviously, but if they start losing the dancers who make them money, maybe house fees will come down? I can only hope.
The other downtown club, I'd be sad to see go - it's chill, the girls there seem happy (for certain values of happy,) mileage is decent, and prices are "okay" (still a bit high, but not price gouge high.)
I admit, as a Seattle PL, even I have started going to the new club - it's just a way better value for my limited "entertainment" budget.
My friend tells me it isn’t like this now, better girls work there? Idk. I don’t think girls are selling dances at lower prices than other clubs though? Because, it’s the same girls working in all the clubs....
In this club I saw guys in those coats that say POLICE on the back, I saw guys in coats that said ATF, I saw guys in coats that said FBI. This really, really freaked me out. Do you know the history of the club owners here? I do.
I think I know the other downtown club you’re talking about, I’ve never been there. I think we are on the same page, very small club??
I get home from a trip on Friday and I think I’ll be renewing my license to go to this club again. I have a lot of customers asking me to come up to Sea. Lmk if you plan to stop by. :)
I don’t charge like that. Please do let me know if we should meet at the non DJV club!
I look at your reviews to see where you seem to be at. Be careful about assuming that a club is not Deja Vu. To their credit they have unbranded many of their clubs. I thought this was just in San Francisco, and then just in Detroit. But now I am learning that it is many places, and even some really off the hook places.
So DV has adapted in many ways, and by unbranding clubs, they can presumably go looser in metros which allow it.
Remember, they bought the Chicken Ranch in Pahrump. Sounds like they really wanted to improve it, make it into a free form fraternizing place, with a lounge or strip club, rather than just those old wild wild west lineups.
https://chickenranchbrothel.com/
The egg graphics would seem to be a clever adaptation of their standard logo.
But it turns out that NV has so many screwy laws about these places that you can often do more in a strip club, or just out on the sidewalk, then you can in a licensed NV Brothel.
So instead they put $4 Meg into their new place in TJ, where I am told that the women are unregulated. So it should be just like HK, BT, and LC, and the Playboy Bar, where if you go in, expect very quickly for a girl to have both hands on your head and be ramming her tongue into your mouth, and then asking, "Arriba o ficha?"
And remember that a club has the right to charge high fees, be they to customers or dancers. Usually if the dancer access fees are high, then probably the girls are making more money, as it is more of a show club, they do less, but leave with more money. Its mostly just a matter of how much money comes in the front door. Then does the house get its cut from the cover charge, from the booths and back rooms, or from the dancers? Getting it from the dancers keeps it hidden from customers, so probably that means more gets spent.
And then it is also a matter of how many dancers they have er shift. In a show club, the number is kept low, it is rigged to keep the girls happy, so that they will continue to show up, and follow the rules.
In a dive it is different, the money is lower. They just hire all the girls who apply, knowing that some will not make any money. The fees will be lower, and the girls will still work very hard for what money they get.
So not everything DV does is bad.
My issue with DV is where they have a near monopoly and are making it more restrictive than it really needs to be according to community and LE standards. And the real restriction is in the front room, not the back room. The front room is where the non-committal fraternizing occurs, and it is where that critical rapport between strangers is first built.
So anon4231 and PinkSugarDoll,
If I may ask you, at the clubs you know of, do girls lead by sitting on laps? Is that their standard first move?
If things don't work out with the first girl, does another come to take her place?
And with this lap sitting, does it often lead to front room makeout sessions?
Is their any rule against such, and how it is enforced?
Do you feel that front room makeout sessions increase the house's income, or lower it?
What role does DV seem to play, with its branded and with its unbranded clubs?
Thanks,
SJG
Jimmy Smith - The Cat ( Full Album )
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Santa Clara County Housing Crisis
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These questions you are asking: for me there is no correlation. I have never seen anyone make out in a club, ever, even in a shared dance room, besides husband and wife/ bf gf.
I sit on laps all the time, it’s just to be friendly, or because some of the superclubs I work in are packed and there are no free seats. It has no correlation to anything else.
The end.
Back in the late 90s I had a great time with a stripper at DV Seattle. Also in downtown San Francisco.
And yeah strippers will gladly sit on my lap just to meet me. Unlike what SJG thinks there's no difference between DV and non-DV clubs in this regard. Once again he talks out of his ass about actual strip club activities.
Thank you for your frankness, and I believe everything that you are saying. Is not my intent to press you, or to try to get you to talk about things which have no relevance.
I feel that I understand now where you are coming from. Perhaps if I can just throw out a few things just so you can see where I am coming from.
Contact strip clubs started in the late 70's in San Francisco, with Jim and Artie Mitchell. These two guys loved thumbing their noses at the authorities, doing stuff which infuriated them, and then showing them that there really was no legal basis for stopping them.
So whereas strip clubs had been strict no touching, Jim and Artie told the girls that as guys had been waiving money at them, now they could go out and sit on laps. As they had movie theater style seating, there was not floor space for much else. So lap dancing meant lap sitting. What else when along with this varied widely. Jim and Artie did prohibit FS, and they did fire girls found to be violating. But most everything else was common. They kept the lights low.
Now Dianne Feinstein had become Mayor and she greatly disapproved of 'sex oriented businesses'. She used to keep a map posted on her office wall, which had blue stick pins everywhere that a rape had occurred, and red stick pins everywhere there was such a business. She aimed to show a causal relationship.
So between movies and the strip club, Jim and Artie had already been arrested and booked over 100 times. Each time, while their case was pending, they went a couple of steps harder core. They employed excellent attorneys and they courted the press. The newspapers made fun of LE. So always the authorities would eventually just quietly back down.
People interested in strip clubs have got to read this:
https://www.amazon.com/Bottom-Feeders-Fr…
But with Feinstein and the lap dancing cases, the authorities would not budge, and they were calling Jim and Artie "The Corporate Pimps". But Jim and Artie, just out of principle, would never even consider pleading guilty to anything.
The main argument which the Defense had was that it was all out in the open, hence it was really not for sexual gratification, rather it was a kind of sex education, a cabaret show with audience participation.
After all, Jim had been radically changed himself by seeing such a DATY show done in Copenhagen.
They wanted to create the same kind of thing here. And the original crew of girls saw themselves as sex educators. They were taking business travelers from other states, places the sexual revolution has skipped over, and radically changing them.
So the jury acquitted Jim and Artie, and Feinstein was humiliated, as was the DA's Office. Never again has that county tried to say that fondling and whatever else in the front room violates any law. If they can't get the jury to see it their way, then it becomes pointless.
I also experienced some of this, having snuck away from a trade show, I spotted an extremely cute black girl walking quickly on the sidewalk. I figured she was an office worker, and so I decided I would try and take her to lunch.
But then she ducked into New Century. I had never been in there and did not have a huge amount of money, but I still tried. So in I went and the door man told me her stage name, and I waited. When she came out she did her set and peeled down to just high heels and makeup. She finished her set doing showy open tongue kissing with this other girl.
Usually in porno movies they have girl kissing, and I would just FF past it. But in real life it is a powerful turn on. Then she came straight to my lap. I could not help but telling her what a turn on it was when she was kissing that other girl. She responded instantly about how much she was enjoying it.
That is just an overwhelming situation. Things happened and I got much more than I have had imagined possible. To this day, that she could be that physically open with a total stranger, and getting an amount of money which really is insignificant, just blows me away. She was just a treasure.
I had already learned in AMPs, that while other guys just lie face down on the table and offer the girl money, I just treat them like civilians, like I'd just met them at a party. There are various ways things might go, but the sure sign of a mind blowing experience for both parties is when I can get her DFKing. Its not the type of thing to discuss first, just try to set the mood of the interaction, and then just do it.
It does not always work, but it works often enough and the experience is phenomenal.
And even in our own local strict no touching clubs, sometimes girls do disregard the rules and engage in DFKing, and some of them are really off the charts. What they get is $1 tips, but what they seem to want is immediate OTC.
There are other accounts, but I want to draw your attention to how it had been often reported on Black Strip Clubs . Net. They said that a girl comes and jumps onto your lap, and then starts licking your neck and nibbling at your ear. Well as I see it, she is defying the guy to start making out with her. A few soft words, maybe doing her the same way, and then go for it.
And then multiple TUSCL members have affirmed that in the Mixed Race dives, all the girls do it exactly that same way.
And it makes sense, they want to get the guy into the back room, without having to worry he'll hold out for one of the others, I am sure that way works.
And of TJ, the written accounts are innumerable, and we also have videos.
In our own Mexican Bar underground, kissing is prohibited, but as there most all of the girls are aggressively lining up all the OTC they can. I would usually start them out with open tongue kissing, just like the black girl at New Century had been doing on stage, and like they do in some porno movies. The girls either do that, or they press forehead to forehead to suggest kissing. That is how they show that they are worthy and good intentioned OTC partners.
Most of the time when they interview sex workers what they say is that they want the freedom to accept or decline as they choose, and really to handle the entire interaction their own way.
So these girls in the most extreme of places who lead with DFKing are doing just that.
So while girls accustomed to tamer and more regulated clubs might balk at this, those accustomed to wilder and less regulated places see it as fine, even best. They are the ones driving it.
So in San Francisco, it would be very unlikely that anyone is going to try and claim that such is illegal. And that, being still completely noncommittal, is what determines the quality of the back room interaction.
So you say there is lots of lap sitting, but zero makeout sessions, well in my experience it is not very hard to get a girl sitting on my lap DFKing. Soft words, some charm, titty massaging, not paying her but showing good intent and respect by being generous, they all help.
So why are there no makeout sessions, despite all the lap sitting, at these clubs? Would bouncers intercede, or would there be some other penalties?
Girls in clubs where front room friendliness really is prohibited have recited to me the "I don't kiss" speech, only to be demonstrably reversing themselves not too much later.
And then if some people are doing it, that will encourage others.
I remember, once in a club where the back room mileage had radically escalated as the place was to be closed, a girl surprised me by DFKing from the stage, and with everyone who gave her $1. Seemed that what she wanted was this new open ended back room action.
SJG
Humble Pie-30 Days In The Hole
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Chicago - Old Days
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRTMWzVo…
Rare Earth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3Z8NU5I…
Led Zeppelin, 1969
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-WSbMW7…
SJG = strip club POSER!!!
And then not everything DV does is bad.
You can read by above post. But my issue with them has to do with over regulating the women in metros where it is not necessary to placate the authorities. Without such front room regulations, it will tend to go to girls who lead with DFKing, or are at least amenable to front room makeout sessions.
Numerous accounts of the most extreme of US dives, and it being that way. And of Tijuana, the accounts go beyond numerability.
Front room fraternizing is what makes the back room fun mind blowing for both parties.
SJG
To get right to the point, at the clubs you have been to, do the girls lead with lap sitting? And if things do not go anywhere with the first girl, does another take her place?
Does this lead to front room makeout sessions?
If the answer is no, then why not? Would bouncers intercede, or would there be some other penalty?
Do you think such front room makeout sessions would cause the clubs to lose income, or do you think they would increase the clubs' income?
You know that there are innumerable accounts from TJ of girls who not only are amenable to front room makeout sessions, but who lead with DFKing. And of the Playboy Bar, it is widely reported that girls approach from behind when you are seated, and use both hands to pull your head back and then start ramming their tongue into your mouth. As reported they will hold it for at least 30 seconds, and then say, "Arriba o ficha?"
This may raise eyebrows, but even if done in the US, hard to make any case that this is actually violating any law. So long as the guy did not complain, it would not be in violation of any law at a public park bench.
SJG
Mike Oldfield
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUB-TBPj…
But, to your credit, Deja Vu’s website does list a ton of clubs in San Francisco and a lot of them are unbranded. A quick comparison between the lists of San Francisco clubs on Deja Vu’s website and TUSCL does show that Deja Vu owns almost every strip club currently operating in San Francisco.
So you are saying that if a girl was found engaging in front room DFKing, she would be fired, and that this applies to all the local clubs?
Girls ever seen this in writing, ever seen such a firing?
And does this apply also to front room titty massaging, thighs and ass massaging, and pussy massaging?
And do girls really completely uphold such limits 100% of the time, even if intoxication is a factor, if getting guys into the back room is slow, or it is near closing time and they want an OTC?
SJG
Sorry, to their credit and the nature of the business, they own lots of clubs which they have 'unbranded', not on their web site, nothing about the club to link it to them.
I had thought it was just San Francisco. I was wrong, it is lots and lots of places.
Should make the clubs better.
SJG
Who could care less about what gets onto the camera?
If I kiss her, then likely I'm going to be waking up in the morning with her. And she won't need to have that explained to her either.
SJG
It depends on the context, what has been said, and how it is done. That is why women really go for it.
And then it depends on what can ensue ITC. FS really blows a girl's mind.
And then if not that night, then soon. She might have other obligations.
SJG
Do the girls at your club kiss in the dance booths?
Hard to really know that. But maybe they do, but NEVER in the front room? Hard to believe that, because I've seen that it is rarely true.
Have you seen enforcement against anyone for front room kissing?
Sounds like maybe your club has the booths set up so they don't facilitate FS. If it was an FS oriented place, there would be more kissing.
DFKing is what gets a girl opened up, what gets her to just let it happen. Sex is a mutual experience. So of course, you want to select a girl you like, and one you would want to be seeing outside.
Pretty hard to believe that a strip club has girls who sit on laps, but no one ever kisses them, and that the girls always decline. Pretty hard to believe that.
I've posted this before, but years ago I read in a general audience travel book about Mexico, that they cannot understand our no touching clubs. It explained that in Mexico, if I guy likes a stripper, the first thing he does is kiss her.
Now as a general audience book, they probably did not want to go that far. Kissing her might be the message that he is taking her to the back room.
*****************
So we have someone here who is always getting front room makeout sessions. His view is that at least where he is, Deja Vu, branded is no more strict than the other operators. Front room makeout sessions, for those who approach it that way, are on in DV clubs.
But my view is based on San Francisco, where DV forced all the contact into the back rooms ( booths and VIP ). In San Francisco no one is going to say that kissing is a crime.
Now as far as girls, it really depends on their attitude. But generally they may say they don't kiss, like the way they talk on stripper web. But they also talk about escorting on stripper web, and then they all kiss. And then despite what the girls say, that does not mean that they don't do it.
So this was not intended to be a thread about front room makeout sessions, it was intended to be about how to respond to Deja Vu. But it has been most informative.
Say like we set a goal, limit Deja Vu, branded and unbranded, to no more than the greater of 2 clubs or 1/3 of the total, any metro.
So no, we don't boycott, we just get more clubs open.
So say if there were 2 clubs in Greenville SC, and DV had them booth, that's okay. But if they had three, then we would need to get another 6 opened, to limit DV to 1/3.
In fact, I believe that if we get more clubs opened, and they are looser, then DV would itself loosen up. They are not all bad. They seemed to want to make the Chicken Ranch into something more like TJ. Just screwy NV laws got in the way. So now they have TJ, and I believe that in DV TJ, front room makeout sessions would be on.
So in some ways, DV does help by providing competition to the others. But in some places, it would help to be able to offer competiton to DV.
And both types of clubs, DV and independents, would tend over time to help loosing up public attitudes.
So then if more clubs are to be opened, the question is, of what type, and in the Bay Area, where?
SJG
No more clubs can be opened, in most markets, and particularly SF?
To me though it has been obvious that SF suffers from not enough competition. Competition is what gets operators to take risks, and just to look the other way as aggressive girls take over.
It seems like its all now world famous names and landmark real estate. So more money is made off of these reputations, than by what actually goes on inside the clubs today.
It always had been that North Beach was for tourists, and the Tenderloin and Market St. were for locals, i.e. mongers.
Things changed when DV got hold of New Century, and then when MSC and Pink Diamonds closed down. That was the big shift.
With Centerfolds in North Beach, everyone knew that that was McStrip Club. The places on Broadway are so small that they're not that important. Maybe without DV they really would have closed. Not sure if they are open in the daytime, and that is usually the indicator of a slow business.
But it really comes down to New Century and MSC, and the City cracking down and closing Pink Diamonds.
In wild places, the girls are the ones who make the rules, their own rules. And so they can come and go freely, they use hooker hotels on top of whatever the club has, and they will tend to do whatever it takes to make things happen. In the wildest places there doesn't even need to be an official dancer status, they are all freelancers. Sometimes they are in the club, sometimes they are standing on the sidewalk out in front. Front room makeout sessions might not come as naturally to them as it does in Mexico, but they still will not be unaccustomed to it. I think a lot of it is just how the guy is relating to them verbally.
Clearly though there is some barrier to entry in San Francisco, and I don't know what it is. Considering that there are really no other mileage places in the Bay Area, it is an undeserved region.
Yes, most people do not have the money to open a strip club. But there are all kinds of clubs. Some of those most liked on TUSCL are really just little holes in the wall, or barns out along the highway somewhere.
That Tootsies, in West Miami, that has got to be the biggest one. But most of the other places are really just shit holes.
And then, there are other ways to set up strip clubs. Some places are lingerie modelling / adult entertainment. And yes, these are smaller and probably lower gross. But they cost less to set up, and they are more likely to be considered expendable.
Now those places really can't offer front room fraternizing, the real strength of strip clubs. But the Asian Hostess Bars on Old Telephone Rd in Houston do, and yes, people have posted about front room GFE. And then they have the massage back room, generally superior to strip club back rooms, as the customer is supposed to fully disrobe, and they have hooks to hang clothes on and all.
I believe more places can and should be opened.
DV makes its money with the standard strip club form, that which has proven itself to be very lucrative. But there are still other ways to do it.
I say that the best alternative place will be Oakland. In the suburbs the cops are way too tough, and LE does not follow the Constitution's Due Process clause. They just do what ever they want. San Jose might work, but its cops are also way over the top.
Oakland has no strip clubs because of an unconstitutional ordinance.
https://m.eastbayexpress.com/oakland/oak…
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…
"I assume that your decision to skip S.F.'s strip clubs was based on what you've read in reviews. My own feeling is that they are clip joints and that what causes this is just a lack of competition. Considering that these are the only contact clubs in the Bay Area, there are just way too few of them. I do not know what the legal restrictions might be which prevents more from being opened in San Francisco."
The Oakland ordinance is just as unconstitutional as the ones Melvin Belli got overturned in the 1960's.
"50 years ago on this very date, famed exotic dancer Carol Doda was found not guilty on charges of indecency and lewd conduct for the act of dancing topless at the Condor Club in North Beach. On May 7, 1965, a jury of 8 men and 4 women submitted their not guilty verdict, effectively rendering San Francisco as the first city in the US to legalize topless dancing."
https://brokeassstuart.com/blog/2015/05/…
But Oakland does have street hookers and they have Mexican bars in the same area. I suspect the bars have hookers inside, as well as out on the sidewalk in front.
Oakland's ordinance only applies to retail businesses, not to membership clubs, things built by extending the Swingers' Club Model. And some new swingers' clubs are in either commercial or quasi-commercial buildings, no longer feeling they have to only use residences.
And if one sets it up right, one does not need to get any money off of the women, except maybe for an entrance fee. Charging that fee is what creates the legal right to exclude some if necessary. Otherwise it is just the entrance fee for the men. Don't need to charge any VIP room fees.
Can make it very hard for outsiders to get in, and very hard for LE to get in by surprise. And then if they do bust someone, so what, a stupid misdemeanor, and on people who aren't bothering anyone. Makes LE look stupid.
Oakland had a serious violent crime wave. I think their anti-strip club ordinance is an attempt to curb that, probably more dealing with narcotics sales and turf battles. Their strip clubs were probably just bars with hookers, and then a stage added.
What I am talking about would not have any relation to the street outside. Very hard to get in through the front door.
Its just to provide a better result. The best factors of strip clubs and AMPs combined into one.
The women are plenty available and plenty willing. I know this from our own local underground club scene.
Most of the time what the women want is casual fraternizing, not some highly structured thing like a high gloss strip club with bouncers getting tipped out, nor something like online advertising and that front door first meeting.
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…
SJG
Ne Yo Sexy Love
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgaeGW-2…
Eviction Wave
https://www.democracynow.org/2018/4/13/n…
Have you seen strip club front room DFKing?
Even in our no touching clubs, it still sometimes happens. And in our underground Mexican bar circuit, though not prevalent or standard, and still ostensibly prohibited, it is still common.
Pretty hard to believe that pretty girls sit on laps and fraternize and that guys don't come on to them and start kissing them.
SJG
The better question is...
...when have you ever had DFK followed by regular OTC FS with a stripper?
Answer: NEVER!
https://brokeassstuart.com/blog/2015/05/…
But in fact these new laws have never been constitutionally tested! And they still amount to the same sort of thing, an arbitrary attempt to limit fee speech.
So of course we need people to overturn them. THIS SHOULD BE A SECTION ON TUSCL.
There is that Civil Rights Law firm in Atlanta associated with Follies.
But the way around them now is simply the membership club model. Yes it is a lower revenue model than retail, but the objectives of a strip club enthusiast will often be different from those of most business people. And in fact, such things have existed.
1. Edgewater West, Oakland, (seemingly), original one gone due to building demolition.
2. Sights, Newark NJ ( closed now, but ran for a number of years, built a national reputation )
3. Others reportedly in Gary IN and Fayetteville NC.
4. Some newer swingers clubs are in industrial buildings, some encourage 'swing club escorts' some have nights with strippers or 'lap dancers' and some are reported as having a woman paid by the house who makes sure no one goes home without a smile on their face.
5. Dancers have told me of 'private clubs', and they must be referring to things like this.
So is Deja Vu the enemy? Maybe I had thought so, but having these discussions, I am starting to see a bigger picture. I believe that if they had their way, everywhere would be like Tijuana. And I believe that in their TJ place, its just like the rest of Mexico, front room makeout sessions are standard. And I believe they wanted to do this with the Chicken Ranch.
So no, they are not the enemy. The problem is really LE. But one of the manifestations of this is a lack of competition in what could be a great metro, San Francisco. So we still need to get more clubs opened there, of one type or another.
SJG
Stanley Clarke - Full Concert - 10/12/79
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IjTZIa9…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM9IFk73…
https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Club…
https://www.sfstation.com/club-kiss-b244…
https://clubkiss.net/sessions/new#focus
Here, the founder's book:
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…
They've also had these S and M places, where there is a bar, then in the basement, no alcohol, but S and M. Sex happens.
The posts here about kissing with FS, in current US strip clubs, are innumerable. And we have at least one expert of experts who does front room makeout sessions regularly at his strip clubs. It makes obvious sense too.
We have lots of posts about front room DFKing in US clubs, though often written as the girl is licking your neck, nibbling at your ear lobe, trying to encourage it.
People who don't want it, I guess they don't see it. They just want to buy dances. And some of these guys they don't want a mutual experience with the girl, they just want LDKing.
My own view from talking to SF dancers and mileage club experienced dancers we get locally, they don't seem to like giving LDKs, and they don't seem to like the guys who want that. And I don't blame them at all.
I think that is a factor in why they are often very much more open and physically engaging with me.
So getting back to what this is supposed to be about, I don't really have anything against DV, my view of them has loosed up. But I do want to get more clubs opened, of one type or another, and especially in the Bay Area.
SJG
Jeff Beck & Tal Wilkenfeld. @ Crossroads Festival 2007
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blp7hPFa…
Bay Area Sex Clubs are going strong. They have been adapted from the swingers clubs model. Used to be Luscious, but now there is Club Kiss.
https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Club…
https://www.sfstation.com/club-kiss-b244…
https://clubkiss.net/sessions/new#focus
Here, the founder's book:
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…
They've also had these S and M places, where there is a bar, then in the basement, no alcohol, but S and M. Sex happens.
The posts here about kissing with FS, in current US strip clubs, are innumerable. And we have at least one expert of experts who does front room makeout sessions regularly at his strip clubs. It makes obvious sense too.
We have lots of posts about front room DFKing in US clubs, though often written as the girl is licking your neck, nibbling at your ear lobe, trying to encourage it.
People who don't want it, I guess they don't see it. They just want to buy dances. And some of these guys they don't want a mutual experience with the girl, they just want LDKing.
My own view from talking to SF dancers and mileage club experienced dancers we get locally, they don't seem to like giving LDKs, and they don't seem to like the guys who want that. And I don't blame them at all.
I think that is a factor in why they are often very much more open and physically engaging with me.
So getting back to what this is supposed to be about, I don't really have anything against DV, my view of them has loosed up. But I do want to get more clubs opened, of one type or another, and especially in the Bay Area.
SJG
Jeff Beck & Tal Wilkenfeld. @ Crossroads Festival 2007
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blp7hPFa…
Neoliberalism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9sB4uld…
JohnSmith69 surprised us with his story of going to MBOT and asking for price quotes, for everything. So if he is asking a girl for such pricings, he had better not be a cop.
I was aghast the he talked to the girl like that. But he did, and she gave him pricings, outrageous pricings.
Now, if he had then reached into his pocket and pulled out the money and tried to hand it to her, there would still be lots of ways for her to evade, if she did not want to do it, or if she never does such.
And then if it were to happen, the club might station a guard to make sure no one came into that area, so few would even know about it.
Odds are that it would only happen rarely, and usually only when a customer had already had the girl in the dance booth a couple of times, further running up the costs.
What I call this is open ended expensive fantasy. That is the club will never tell you that D, E, and F, are prohibited, but you can do A, B, and C. If they said that that would still be quite legally problematic. And the women just don't want to do it that way. Leads to problems.
So when Smith asked, the girl could have just told him "No, that does not happen here." But the clubs have found it better to keep the open ended but very expensive fantasy alive, even if it is very rarely actualized.
Now I don't talk to women the way Smith did. No reason to.
But herein you see the importance of free form fraternizing, and this means in the front room. With words, and hopefully some preliminary physical intimacy, and probably some money too, the girl and I will come to see what will ensue, and matters of money can be resolved. Its just like it typically happens for me in the session room of an AMP. But in a strip club it would be in the front room, as it was with these girls doing front room FS, and then mini-van FS.
But you see, this is why I call this open ended very expensive fantasy and highly restricted front room approach the modern version of a clip joint.
But now I see that it is not just one operator causing this, it is LE, public attitudes, and also just the stupidity of most strip club customers.
In wilder venues where the girls are effectively promoting FS themselves, it is different. It got like that at a local place which was slated for closure and building demolition.
Front Room Strip Club DFKing
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…
SJG
https://chickenranchbrothel.com/index.ph…
ELP In The Beginning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWWT_EUv…
It's a Beautiful Day - White Bird - 7/7/1970 - Tanglewood (Official)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q918fs4R…
What About Me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOJk74QC…
Nikki Haley
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/hale…
US Launches Strike
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Xn6sWX…
US And Allies Launch Strike
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcxahzd6…
Russia Warns US
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf-WhTkk…
Real Reason For War In Syria
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoIbgmGx…
The war in Syria explained in five minutes | Guardian Animations
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5H5w3_Q…
Understanding the Syrian crisis in 5 minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l44KUQH…
Syria's war: Who is fighting and why
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFpanWNg…
https://chickenranchbrothel.com/index.ph…
https://chickenranchbrothel.com/index.ph…
Need to focus on the legal and political aspects
Wiggins Law Group
https://www.wigginslawgroup.com/about-us…
SJG