The Club to OTC Transition

Fondl, and Enquiz: Very good points!

I AM enjoying the ride... very much, in fact. I believe the best choice is what was suggested. Sit back, enjoy, and if she has any feelings she will make them known.

There IS a fairly large BUT, to that, however. We all know how women are. They give us obscure signs that they think are blatant, and expect us to gather from their signs, how they are feeling. I can see that happening here.

For what it's worth, though... as I mentioned earlier, I really don't know where I expect - or hope - this to go... it might make things more difficult to know that she had feelings, 'cause I'm not "available" to do anything about it, other than to feel flattered that she felt that way.

I don't even know why I want to know... maybe just to justify how I feel.

Regarding Fondal's observation: It doesn't sound like the fellow who posed this question is enjoying the ride, but is more confounded by it than pleasured by it. If it does bother him that much, at some point he'll have to ask. If he's enjoying things as they are, then I agree, just enjoy the ride. Ultimately, it's going to be up to our fellow who posed the question what direction he wants to take. Besides, if he can't trust the girl to be honest in her feelings, then are we talking about a relationship, or just following the lyrics of the old Bob Seger song, "I used her, she used me, neither one cared." Ask what you want from the relationship, then you'll know what to do.

"This was a bit of the old cleft-stick method, where they asked you to commit yourself without committing themselves to asking you to commit yourself. In its different forms it seemed to cover almost the whole field of male approaches, all the way up from the first only-being-friendly (ha ha ha) offer of a cigarette in a cinema." --Kingsley Amis, Take a Girl Like You, page 57.

Very well put, FONDL. I'd add that that's the question the woman is supposed to ask, typically at the most annoying possible time.

"Why don't you just ask her where the relationship is going?"

I disagree for at least 2 reasons. First, she's more likely to tell you what she thinks you want to hear rather than her true feelings. Second, asking such a question could easily cause her to feel pressured and to back off. Forget about her feelings for now and just enjoy the ride. If there are true feelings on her part she'll let you know soon enough.

Why don't you just ask her where the relationship is going? Either that, or just sit back and enjoy it for whatever it is. If no one is getting hurt, and she's not bleeding you for cash, and you like the relationship then don't worry about it. But if it really bothers you, talk to her and find out how she views you.

Chandler, I agree. But I also think that the situation makes it much more likely that money will be involved. You meet a girl in a club and get in the habit of giving her money. Then you begin to get together OTC and sometimes it just seems natural to continue the habit. Or maybe it doesn't seem right to you to punish her by not giving her any. Anyway in many cases it just seems easier to continue giving her money, especially when the amount involved isn't all that much and she's got some problems and needs help, which pretty much defines most strippers.

Incidently, I've had similar relationships with other young women who were never strippers or involved in any other part of the sex industry, but money was still exchanged at times, both directly and indirectly. It started with an offer to help, followed by a shopping trip for something she needed, which eventually led to just giving her some money. I don't think that's uncommon, especially when there's a great difference in ages.

FONDL: You had some things to say at the time as I recall, so it must have been before that (and before Book Guy). You've just forgotten the specifics. No matter.

I agree that none of this should make much difference if Doug is enjoying it. However, he asked for insights into what's going on, so to consider what part money might play is not offbase. That's a far cry from saying that business and friendship are mutually exclusive.

Money necessarily clouds the issue more with strippers than with, say, a friendship with your insurance salesman. The product a stripper is selling is a kind of simulated friendship, which makes distiguishing true friendship more difficult. Furthermore, if you spend time socially with the guy who happens to sell you insurance, after playing games and watching TV together, do you give him money to make up for his time not making money?

Chandler, I don't know what you are talking about. I suspect the person to whom you refer has been on my blackout list for a long time.

DougS, I agree with Yoda. It doesn't matter what her motives are as long as you are enjoying the ride. Chances are she doesn't even know herself what her motives are. What you are describing is exactly how my relationship started with my ATF - that was 9 years ago and we've become very close friends.

And I'm probably in the minority here but I don't believe that a business relationship and a friedship are mutually exclusive. When my ATF was dancing I was her best customer ITC and a good friend OTC at the same time, and those were clearly two separate relationships. She was like two different people. Some girls (and maybe guys) probably can't do that but my experience is that some can. And do.

DougS, I'm no expert but I have been around the block a few times with this sort of situation. She may like you but if you are "giving her money" ,weather she asks for it or not, you are never really going to know what her motives are. That being said I wouldn't worry about it to much. If you are enjoying yourself, and not feeling taken advantage of, just stay on the ride and see where it goes...nothing ventured, nothing gained...

How long has this been going on-ITC, OTC

Yoda: Hasn't been going on very long... ITC began in mid-Sept, OTC last week.

very good question , i had one a fews years back , and we were able to keep it seperate till she moved,,, i would spend money her the same in the club , and then on her nights off we had dinner , movies etc., she even , as i said in another post came over several times to my place and danced and even brought one of the other girls...with no catch's or money exchange . it is hard to find one though i am not an expert on this .... nor do i have the funds to find out....

Yoda: No, I never have taken her shopping. I also no longer spend money on her in the club, because from now on, I believe all of our "meetings" will be OTC.

Chandler: My motives are unclear by what I've posted, because they are also unclear to me. To be honest, I don't know what I want. I guess I'm totally happy with how the "arrangement" is working now. Though a part of me wants there to be more to it than just a busness transaction, I don't know why, and if it WERE to be more than that, I don't know what I would do, or could do. We are both in situations that would prevent more than a customer relationship from developing very far. So, I guess I have the best of both worlds...

I should add that I've never been in your position, because I never pay a stripper for anything but dances in the club. However, anytime they tell me about guys who give them money OTC or take them shopping, the stripper considers them customers, but the customer often isn't sure what's the score.

BTW, FONDL, could you be referring to a so-called partition theory advanced by one of our now ignored posters before he resorted to full troll mode? It's a common explanation, good to keep in mind, but I don't think it applies nearly as often as is claimed.

Doug: That equation isn't too far off. Certainly closer than "money=no factor, not worth mentioning". It doesn't need to be an extravagant amount. If you're merely paying her what seems to be fair compensation, in her mind it's a business relationship, albeit a pleasant one.

So, my inclination is to say the answer is B: She doesn't feel the same as you. She views it as customer appreciation, and she thinks what she's doing makes you happy. Actually, you're a little unclear about just what it is that you want. If not a true relationship or sex, then what? If it's some kind of definitive confirmation from her, then I doubt if you'll ever get it, and the money is one reason why.

Sometimes I simply think, that the human female will fuck you if she cannot categorize you. Even if she can categorize you as, "A guy I want to fuck," she won't fuck you, until you somehow get out of that cubby-hole and get into the nebulous indeterminate zone again.

That's a weird observation, I know. But human females (strippers or not) are weird.

She's never asked for any money (or told me how much to give her, if I DID give her money), but I do give her money 'cause I know she needs it, and I am obviously keeping her from making money, had I not been there.

So, you're probably going to say, "money=customer, no money=relationship"

Several months ago someone here (I think it was Book Guy) made the observation that girls categorize guys fairly early on in any relationship (guys do the same with girls BTW), and that once you are put into that box (no pun intended) you'll usually stay there. I think that applies very directly to the situation described here. She may see your OTC activities as good customer relations, she may see you as a buddy, she may see you as a romantic interest, etc. Money might provide a clue what box you're in but not always. IME the absence or presence of money doesn't preclude a close personal relationship.

Oops! I hadn't seen Yoda's reply. Great minds, as they say...

Doug, you don't mention how much you're paying her, if anything, in the club or outside. I don't think it's possible to answer this without knowing what part money plays in it.

Are you still spending money on her in the club? Do you take her shopping?