The Chase, and Front Room Makeout Sessions, versus Chumps and Losers

Is this "the System" SJG style?

It's just the way the world is.

SJG

STFU SJG because IDK WTF U mean. OK?

You guys are crazy...does papi approve of these shenanigans? Hitting teh clubs tonight will not be frenchy the dancas

@SJG (and anybody else for that matter), you have probably heard it before, but if not: "Treat a whore like a lady, and a lady like a whore."

What is it with you and got damn DFKing??!! Swear to God you act as though your favorite thing HAS TO BE everyone else's favorite thing. We know you like front room make out sessions and how you feel about dances. No need to repeat it a million fucking times. You will not change anyone else's mind on their own likes and beliefs. So please shut up about it already.

He likes things that have not and never will happen to him, he has posted the same thing at least once a day usually more for years. He is a fucking retard.

Holy schnikey, has SJG ever made a comment or post that didn't involve "front room makeout sessions"?

^^^^ I don't think he has. It's terribly annoying and ruins what would otherwise be an excellent forum with a bunch of excellent chaps who I wouldn't mind hitting up a strip club with.

TFP said it well: "No need to repeat it a million fucking times."

The more I see of these interminable and hyper-repetitive posts (some of which I actually read!) by Satan's Junior Guide, the more I am convinced that he's pretty far out on the autism spectrum. Perhaps we should pity him.

What's this? SJG stopped reading Marx and Engels for a bit and is now cut and pasting from PUA forums?

Yeah, we believe SJG is a player about as much as we believe that his church has more than one member.

Lol!

Hey SJG - What you seem to like I consider beyond fucking stupid. The "chase and yielding" are not what sex is all about, merely what a loser thinks sex is all about. I buy dances because that's what I like. Just like I like sex with my wife and skiing and golf. I don't like is pretending that fucking a stripper OTC makes me special, because special needs is more like it. Now I don't care that you like something fucking stupid and I do think its perfect for you. By the way, wordy people seldom have anything to say.

You just have to add it all up for SJG:

How he emphasizes his need to control everything and everybody.

How he admits to camping out in his car and watching girls in the parking lot.

Him saying here that it's all about the chase and yielding. (Probably toned down words to what he really means. Hunting and submission.)

Having sex with girls who are asleep and holding their wrists down for when they awakening are "surprised". Sounds like borderline necrophilia (which, again, is consistent with his need for control) to me.

His admiration of serial killers.

Yep, SJG is one sick fuck.

"he admits to camping out in his car and watching girls in the parking lot."

I think you misunderstood him, he was on his bicycle hiding behind a car in the parking lot.

Lol.

Scary.

You guys pay too much attention to the fantasies of a psycho.

I'm just commenting on here because this is stupid!

I don't understand all this talk about front room make out areas in a strip club. Every club I walk into, it's usually just one big club after you go inside. One big room or the main club.

"Treat a whore like a lady, and a lady like a whore." Yes, absolutely. That's my entire point. If you like a dancer, treat her like someone you just met at a college party. And with a little bit of pre-conditioning, a great way of letting her know that you like her is to kiss her. Mostly it just comes down to how you do it.

"How he admits to camping out in his car and watching girls in the parking lot." That is bullshit.

It has always been clear to me that strip clubs are something akin to carnival freak shows, something specifically designed to separate marks from their money, but without really delivering much.

Now when it is only something like the Sunnyvale Brass Rail, no private dances, no touching, very low cost as they mostly just get $1 at a time, it is still fairly harmless.

But as it has gotten now, in the mid-level mileage places, shelling out lots of money for "dances" and "extras" and "LDKing", that is a major con game. Like one dancer told me, coming to Sunnyvale from DV in Alaska, "Don't use strip clubs for sexual gratification, because that is perverted."

So what are they good for? They are good if you want to imbibe a sexual aesthetic, like the dolled up women showing themselves off, and the openness, like I experienced at pre-DV New Century, making out with this extremely cute black girl. With her openness, she really blew me away. And what steered it that way was the open tongue kissing she did with another girl, to conclude her stage set. In porno videos I would usually FF past the girl on girl action. But f2f, that is a real turn on. They are demonstrating that it is women who control the erotic. So as she next came to my lap, I could not help but saying something to her about it, and she really responded, and so things happened.

Anyone who has any interest in strip clubs should be reading: amazon.com

And then the second thing strip clubs are good for is that some of us find that we like strippers, and that they are the women we want to be waking up in the mornings with.

But neither of these mean that you are depending on the strip club as your primary source of gratification, or that you need to go very often.

What strip clubs offer is the ultimate power trip, See, Want, Get. In the best places, you can approach the girl who floats your boat that day, and get her just as you first saw her dressed and painted up, and right then and there.

And in Mexico they understand this perfectly, keeping the bar and the hotel within stripper shoe walking distance and providing robes for $1. So you can just walk your girl right out the front door.

But you only get this kind of experience with a girl once. If you come back to her club, it will be different. So if you want to keep seeing her, it has to be by appointment, and that is a different kind of experience.

Jim and Artie Mitchell learned from their father Bob, a professional card player. All across the Central Valley, he would run card games in the back rooms of bars. And the way he kept the marks playing was to entertain them by telling them a story. Jim Mitchell would apply this same talent at the SF State Film School, and then again in telling the story that gave them victory at the Canes Film Festival, Abduction, Gang Rape, and cum in Technicolor all over the face of the Ivory Soap Girl Marilyn Chambers. You shouldn't take it too seriously.

But Jim and Artie always were very much like carnival barkers, courting journalists and their friends, and saying provocative things and baiting LE, and entertaining friends in their office which took up the entire second floor.

But they did not want to be a clip joint. At their place, the girls delivered. Lap dancing always meant front room lap siting. And this was way back before they had stage side sitting and tipping. Prior to that the girls just got a house flat rate of $25 per set.

But after they were allowed to go out and sit on laps, the girls' money multiplied many times over, and they were to pay the house. The original group of girls agreed on keeping it at $1 per minute. But quickly more girls came in and it got wild. Some girls were allowing both vaginal and anal digital penetration, and for $1.

Jim and Artie did prohibit FS, and they did fire girls found to be in violation.

And I am sure that there were lots of makeout sessions too, as well as girls doing all the OTC they could line up.

One that I knew from San Mateo County, was usually at Market St. Cinema. She was really a trip. I say, if she was not entertaining one guy after another, in her own home, then a great resource was being wasted.

I read a general audience travel book about Mexico. They said that Mexican's cannot understand US strip clubs. They can't believe that anyone would go for that. In Mexico if a guy likes a stripper, the first thing he will do is kiss her, and in front of the entire house.

Now this was a general audience book, and they probably did not want to get too explicit. But probably kissing her meant that he was taking her to the back room.

In Mexico it sounds like they set it up so that you can have whatever you want. And the main variable is how much time you want to spend with a girl. Shadowcat posted about Acapulco, where you could take the girl to the session room, or you could take her back to your hotel room for the whole night. He and a friend went through a dozen girls in the session rooms.

And then our own Dr. F, girl by girl account of the HK Bar:

tuscl.net

tuscl.net

Strip clubs are an entirely American invention. We have them because of what our law prohibits, and because of what our Constitution prevents the law from prohibiting.

There is good and bad to them. The good is in the sexual aesthetic, and because some of us really like the high sexualization of strip club girls.

But the bad is that when it gets beyond just a few dollars, these places are serious con-artistry.

But even then there is a silver lining. Despite all of this, the girls who dance in strip clubs, for the most part, they are the attractive, intelligent, and personable young women which they appear to be. So all you need to do is to get them off of script. And you do this simply treating them and talking to them just as you would a girl you met at a party.

When I first joined and posted about this, some went ballistic. But only a few of the dancers are strict lesbians, and if you talk with them some, they are transparent, and so you can steer clear of them.

With the rest, more often than not it is quite easy to get under their skin, and quite easy to end up waking up in the mornings with them. They get sexually frustrated by working in clip joints, just like the custies do. They want to be treated like ordinary girls, and they want to be well fucked.

I am concerned about DV controlling all of the SF clubs except Crazy Horse and MBOT. I don't know how much better things are in their 4 unbranded no alcohol clubs, 20's, Eden, Darlings, Century. But I know that at some of their others it is a big joke, forcing all the contact into the booths and back rooms, so that it is very hard to get a girl opened up to you. If you go along with this, then you are definitely a chump.

I don't know how much DV TJ is different from the HK Bar, but I do know that on TJA they have nothing but contempt for DV TJ. They are not though being explicit enough in their descriptions for me to understand what the differences are.

Almost always, it will come down to front room fraternizing. This what strip clubs alone, over all other venues, offer the potential for. In the front room you can lead the interaction. You still feed her money, but you can make it happen with her. And if you picked the girl and approached her yourself, then that will carry a lot of weight. If DV TJ has restricted this, then that is a serious threat to what is now the heavenly paradise here on earth.

HK Bar youtube.com

The best kind of club is always when they just let the girls do it the way they want. Around the world, what sex workers always want, is complete freedom to chose who they engage with, and to be able to do that with safety, and always to be able to do it the way they want.

Well, it was like this in our own underground Mexican Bar Table Dancing Circuit. And at one of the places they were doing front room FS. And so of course their was also all the BBBJing, DATYing, and DFKing that you could imagine.

Even after they had been busted and it was completely brought within legal limits, with the core group of girls, the basic $5 dance got you a kiss on the cheek. And one of the girls offered you her cheek to kiss. And all of these girls were lining up all the home OTC that they possibly could, and they really knew how to make a guy feel like a king.

As for how much money a club makes, mostly it just comes down to how much money comes in the front door. After they've learned how to maximize this, they can decide how it gets divvied up. And the way to maximize this is to let the girls do it the way they want. And this also makes it so that they are competing with each other. Keep it at a flat access fee, so that the girl profits 1:1 with all the money she gets off of customers. This also provides more plausible deniability for the house, that they never get anything like a cut. I believe it would have been this way with the 'chair forts', in the early days of Texas high mileage.

That what really are carnival show clip joints are making money, just shows how sexually frustrated our society is. And this is why the travel book was telling me that Mexican's cannot understand how anyone would ever go for US strip clubs.

Yeah sure, sometimes lots of guys go out and drink, mostly for male bonding. I don't do anything like this, but they do it, and so they need the girls there, because otherwise people might think that they are gay.

As widely reported, at the most extreme clubs, they do it in the black club style, girls jumping onto your lap and licking your neck and and nibbling on your ear lobe, defying you to start making out with them. The number of accounts of this are huge. And then for just an example, at that Cookies 'n' Cream, Mobile Alabama, they say that when you go in there and sit down, there will always be a girl sitting on your lap. So I am sure, things just happen. And like I said, most of these girls are the attractive, intelligent, and personable young women that they appear to be. So as long as you never treat them like prostitutes, you stand a good chance of getting whatever you want with them, in the club, and beyond.

SJG

SJG is a fuckin' psycho!

Lol!

When you add mental illness to tons of psychoactive drugs its a bad mix. Sanjoselloyd is a cautionary tale.

Dougster is already having his body preserved, before LN2 freezing is to begin.

SJG

About strip clubs and these dancer law suits:

First one I ever heard of pertained to MBOT, but in the mid 90's in Hustler magazine they had an article about another San Francisco suit. I understand though. I know that this all gets into grey areas. And for example, in California, the courts will usually side with the workers, not the owners. And no one is saying that contractor status is not lawful, it just depends on the details, and on the court, and yes, on how the defendant comes across.

But I am also accustomed to the least regulated places, underground places, and an underground place which is now above ground, and all Latina, followed by Black. There are few rules or restrictions. So at that club, very unlikely that contractor status would or could ever be challenged. Girls come and go as they please, and pretty much do what they want. They had even been doing front room FS, and front room everything else. So they owner is not worrying about what the girls do. The owner understands that the less they know the better. So this is the complete opposite of a show club.

And then on TUSCL all the time, and also on the now defunct Black Strip Clubs .net, there were constantly reports of places run like this, no rules.

About DV in Detroit:

Unbranded Clubs in Detroit? I had not previously known of unbranded DV's any place other than San Francisco. I surmise that the unbranded clubs run looser than the branded. But are they as lose as the clubs which have made Detroit such a legend? And likewise, are the 4 unbranded no alcohol DV's in SF as good as Market St. Cinema and Pink Diamonds?

There had been reviews on Yelp calling the dancers prostitutes, for 20's and New Century. They called them ROB's. And then the credit card fraud allegations. If that kind of stuff is happening, then it would seem that likely there are no real rules being effectively enforced. But now listening to more about this, it sounds like these places are just a bit looser than the DV Branded Clubs, like SF Centerfolds, which is refereed to as a "high volume business model". So about unbranded DV in SF and Detroit I don't know.

As far as doing well in the metro, well yes, some are looser than others. But it also depends on the operator, and just how they look at it. Best is when girls can just do what they want.

Alegations of fines, control, and weigh-ins:

Okay, I don't believe everything I read. I know that those are standard allegations. I have heard of fines pertaining to DV Centerfolds SF. Those kinds of allegations undermine the claim to contractor status. But they also suggest a clip joint.

Clip joints?

The Clip Joint terminology comes from Larry Flynt's book. There were clubs where you could have a drink with the girl in the front room, or you could pay $300 and have a drink with the girl in the back room. But in the back room nothing happens which could not happen in the front room. Still basically no touching. It is by consent, but just at it goes with carnival shows, they get the mark to buy in by creating a fantasy. Marks usually do want to be separated from their money. They want to be conned.

So in a place like SF, where almost anything short of FS, has been common in the front room, and even sometimes FIV, DATY, and even BJ, have been common in the front room, then selling people access to booths or back rooms, where nothing more is going to happen, is a clip joint. Of course the law is the same front room versus back room. Its just that it would be harder to enforce pertaining to the back room. But that is how the fantasy starts to substitute for reality, because a great deal more could be done in the front room, without actually crossing over any lines that SF authorities are ever going to try and enforce.

So now for example, DV Centerfolds, when girls are tipping out bouncers, really anything could be done in the booths or back rooms. But what is typically done is only so so. And the basic choreography of it is bad. front room friendliness is better. The girls who really want to engage, they don't try to discuss it, they don't even ask permission. They just do.

Where as pre-deja vu and pre-Terrance Halinan and Willey Brown, what was done in MBOT and New Century, in the front room, was awesome. Not FS, and usually not BJ, but most anything else was common. Mostly, if you got a long with a dancer, intense makeout sessions were common. Some people don't believe this, but those are usually the people who have not learned how to just let it happen. And they don't understand that it all revolves around giving the girl a chance to open up, and get completely off of her service script.

When Diane Feinstein tried to lock away Jim and Artie, and the DA was calling them "The Corporate Pimps", one of their main arguments was that this was not strict fee for service, and then also that since it was front room, it was not for sexual gratification. Rather it was an audience participation cabaret show, and what the girls were doing was a public education service. See, they were getting lots of business men from more conservative areas of the country. And while in all places they have prostitution, they do not have young girls who will sit on your lap and let you fondle their breasts, for $1. And then sometimes it was going to FIV as well.

So as written about by John Hubner, and backed up with dancer interviews, they all felt that they were serving a higher social cause.

Jim Mitchell had been blown away in Amsterdam by an audience participation DATY oriented cabaret show.

Now this cannot work this way when the girl is offering service for a fee, and in a back room. It has to be out in view of the house, even if the lights are low. And there has to be a sense that the money is just a gratuity. And so this was also Jim and Artie's legal defense.

So Jim and Artie courted the newspapers and the newspapers made fun of the cops, and the jury refused to convict, and so Diane Feinstein was humiliated. And it was after that that Halinan and Brown came in and New Century and Market St. Cinema started making fully enclosed booths, clearly intended for FS. But then DV came in and it seems, like asSubraman explained, DV ruined it, and this would be by restricting front room fraternizing, and pushing everything into the back rooms and making it undeniably fee for service. Jim and Artie faced felony conviction and in effect made the laws unenforceable in such situations. But then it was DV and allegedly the Mafia, who then took advantage of those gains and completely changed the character of the clubs.

And so you have this expensive fantasy model. Girls will never flat out refuse anything, they'll just suggest that it is extremely expensive. So marks go in there and get separated from their money, but by girls who have not really opened themselves up to them. And they dream about what really rich guys must be getting. When in fact, very very rarely are girls called upon to deliver what is supposed to be available for huge amounts of money. If and when they do, the price and the preliminary costs are so great as to render it a bum deal because the customer is clearly being played for a chump. So mostly it is just poor chumps jealous of what the rich guys must be getting.

So no, I don't go along with it.

Great times pre-DV, in the front room, and especially at New Century.

Front room makeout sessions and bad dancer and bad customer mentalities:

I agree that there are both customer mentality problems and dancer mentality problems. But I don't agree that the clubs are not at the core of this. Just reading TUSCL, one sees that the customer mentality problem is severe. And then on SW, one hears the dancer mentality problem. But that was my point, in the glory days of MBOT, the dancers felt that they were serving a higher calling, by bringing sexual openness to those who had lived without. And then I got this at New Century, and since in our underground Mexican Bar circuit, and there have been lots of girls from Market St. Cinema there too. And then all that is written about the most extreme black clubs and the mixed race clubs which are just like them, and then about Mexico, and then what I have seen and experienced in our underground clubs, and sometimes in our advertised clubs when a girl is trying to line up same night OTC. When these girls are not being subject to arbitrary and unnecessary restrictions, and when there are so many of them that they have to compete with each other, they pretty much do whatever it takes, and freely and openly.

DV Centerfolds girls will say, "I don't kiss", and then demonstrably reverse themselves not too long afterwards. Girls at San Jose T's, now defunct, will violate the no touching rule and take turns kissing a guy when they are planning to leave with him. For many girls who have just adapted to it, it is not a big deal. Some do stage side DFKing with any guy who gives them $1. It is not all, but it is some. And most of the time, that is enough to mean that with most of the girls, that is no longer completely ruled out. If a guy wants to kiss her, and it really is just because he likes her, that is not something to hold against him.

We have this core group of locals that I have dubbed, "The Beloved Latina Escorts". Mention any of their names around other local dancers, and they get pissed. So I ask them why, and they say, "They're prostitues."

So that separates them from all the others? Then finally I saw what it really was. Its that these girls are actually good at it. That is what makes the others jealous. These beloveds keep so many guys happy, and they keep busy doing home sessions, because there is nothing they'd rather be doing.

So while there are bad attitude dancers and while most custies have bad attitudes, dividing women into two categories, and looking down on the women they are paying for delivering sex acts, this is not universal. And it would be a lot less so if there were looser clubs running.

You can read biographies of all sorts of men, and you will often see a time of sexual awakening when with some pro or quasi pro girls, who just blew them away and changed them forever, like it was with Lady Marmalade.

For Larry Flynt it was a visit to a Paris Brothel, where he was told to pick on, and so intead he told them all to disrobe, turn around, and bend over. There were 30 of them. He spent most of his months Navy pay, and he also threw his back out. But he never looked at gender relations they same way again.

For the founder of the Raelians, it was when he and a friend spent the night with a couple of dance hall hostesses.

And with most of this front room stuff in strip clubs, LE can't really do anything about it. But it does suggest that anything goes in the back rooms because the girls are getting really loosened up. And the girls who are good at it, they do seem like they are cruising on endorphins all day long.

Yes, there are bad attitude girls, but most of the girls who have been in mileage places for any length of time are actually very natural people pleasers, and so by nature they will out GFE the civilians.

About legalities and necessary proof and plausible deniability:

I've had lots of conversations with San Jose's Finance Director, and he quotes a Calif code which states that the purpose of biz licenses is revenue, not regulation. About the only way to lift a biz license is a Public Nuisance action in Civil Court, but for that there have to be lots and lots of police calls. San Jose is tough, but even they use that with discretion.

But if you mean an adult entertainment license, or a liquor license, yes, those are entirely different things.

Yes, if you read what I've been posting since I joined TUSCL, I have always insisted that the PC against prostitution is never the real problem, as that is extremely hard to enforce. But it is these local ordinances, never constitutionally tested. They exist just because some people don't like strip clubs or pay 4 play, they exist without there being proof of illegality. Melvin Belli got some overturned, Jim and Artie and others, and with the help of Rose Bird, got more overturned. These new ordinances are just as unconstitutional as those overturned in past decades.

And yes, these are laws which apply in strip clubs, but not on the beach or in conventional night clubs, and that is the basis for overturning them.

Adult entertainment licenses don't actually authorize the operator to do anything they couldn't otherwise do. They just subject them to a whole bunch of new restrictions. But there is also no legal basis for requiring the license.

So the way people get plausible legal deniability is by not having knowledge of it. In Texas in the early days of high mileage, chair forts, dancer built partitions, and the house getting lots of money, but not from those private spaces.

And in the best days of the South Bay's underground, Front Room FS, no back rooms, and owner sees nothing. And then parking lot minivan FS. And of course these girls loved dfking and everything else. Just ask the County Sheriffs, they enjoyed them to the max.

Having the girls work for a talent agent instead of the bar owner, usually meant that the bar owner would not get in much trouble.

About this history of the legal battles, and where DV stands:

Yes, I was just reading, DV goes back further than I had thought. But I also know that there were lots of great front room makeout sessions at MBOT and New Century, before DV.

And what Jim and Aritie went through were felony jury trials, not civil cases. Unanimous verdict required to convict, proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and never being willing to cop a plea. This is how they won. In a civil case against a city, very hard to win. The case really is driven by a criminal allegation, and so letting it be civil is just a cop out, and one where the operator is knowingly allowing the authorities to win.

Market St. Cinema, and the future?

Well, people allege that Market St. Cinema was run by the mob. And then once you have people working to conceal one type of prohibited activity, it gets hard to stop there from being other problems. But it can be done. San Francisco is a great place for a loose club. I'm not saying more should happen in the back rooms. Sometimes it likely is maxed out. But the issue is the front room and letting the girls do it as they want, as that pretty much means that the most aggressive girls rule.

The need for looser clubs:

Most people like looser environments once they have experienced them. I was blown away by a very cute black girl making out with me in New Century, and then later by these beloved Latina's. These are girls who don't look to the house rules to protect them. They make their own rules and take care of themselves. They are just very open with people. Not for every girl, but many would never have it any other way.

As far as strip clubs being clip joints, in large measure that is just a reflection on the double standards and hypocrisy which our society runs on. But what does wonders to remedy this is just being able to spend time with and fraternize freely with some of the girls which are just naturally open and pleasing, as I have encountered in pre-DV San Francisco, and in our underground Mexican clubs.

What gets a club busted is not the arguably unlawful acts going on in the back room, but it is the lawful acts going on in the front room, because of the impression that creates. But San Francisco still remains one of the best places to push the limits. More so than most other places, in SF they still adhere to due process, and they don't target dancers. They try to bust the bosses, like with Jim and Artie, but that is a much more difficult kind of a case to make. And all the more so if they owners will never deal or voluntarily submit. Jim and Artie would always start softer core, and go a few steps further after each time they were arrested and booked and had a case pending.

I still don't really know how things go in the best of the unbranded DV's, but I am convinced that competition has to be restored. It's not for higher mileage or necessarily lower costs, its for a more open choreography.

SJG

SJG is gay!

Lol!

WTF????

LMFAO @ this thread!

I think you are most likely to find the most front room GFE under one of the following conditions:

1. Old style front room only lap sitting. What ever happens in the front room is all their is. Not table dancing either, lap sitting. Old style New Century, for example.

2. Lap sitting in club which mostly does back room FS. These would be the most notorious strip clubs in the country. Girls get cool about it all, and so they know that the way they make the most money is just to jump on guys laps and as directly as possible to set up the back room session. So FS is the norm, it's not just an occasional thing when a guy is really pushing for it and doing preliminary dances and paying an excessive cost.

Any place where the girls lead by snuggling up close, or by lap sitting, is quite conducive to front room GFE, and especially when the typical back room action is FS. Lap sitting even better than snuggling up close. Latinas like to nuzzel, so stage side or as a way of engaging with a guy when he is seated. But lap sitting usually best.

As people write about Cookies 'n' Cream, Theodore Alabama, near Mobile, "always a girl sitting on your lap".

s3-media4.fl.yelpcdn.com

youtube.com

A more relaxed unstructured interaction with the girl will always be better. And front room GFE is the best way to let that happen. What sex workers always seem to want is to have complete discretion over who they engage with and how. Allowed to happen in the right way, GFE-FS is not going to be disagreeable to those who have adapted to such venues.

SJG

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Now if their profits were in the toilet, I don't know why that would have been. We still have a low number of strip clubs per capita in the Bay Area, and even less if you consider only those with some contact, because South Bay LE still prevents that. Maybe some of the previous owners just did not know how to run them, or maybe they got tired of it.

Sounds like Larry Flynt ran 8 clubs in Southern Ohio, and it went well, but then he got tired of it, but he found that Althea could do it. Larry might not have wanted to retire dances due to age or attitude, especially since he was fucking them.

Don't know what was up with these other SF clubs. They may have been behind the times. There had been several intervals of rapid change.

So if the San Francisco DV group is doing better than DV in other metros, I would still say that limited competition is a part of this. There used to be 4, and then 3, clubs in Oakland, listed on TUSCL. But Oakland had crime problems, Jerry Brown got elected Mayor and started living in one of the tougher areas. JS69 found something claiming that strip clubs are illegal. So this lack of competition must be a factor in how DV SF is doing.

Maybe these Oakland clubs were little more than hooker bars with a stage. I don't know. Maybe Oakland still does have hooker bars.

I was in the Pink Diamonds place, back before Wiley Brown and Terrance Hallinan, and before it became advertised. I left when I realized that most of the customers and the servers were Filipino Drag Queens.

But they still had a real nice looking black girl naked on stage, even though they served alcohol. And I had a nice talk with a very nice looking black hooker who had followed me out.

What it was like in Pink Diamonds that the city closed it? I do not know, but I can imagine.

And then of Market St. Cinema, that place was well loved, I do not know why it would not be able to pay its rent. Never heard that before.

Running a strip club which is out on the edge, does entail risks of many kinds, and I am sure that just keeping things running is stressful.

The ones I know of which have gone way out there have always basically been just bars, not big places. Since they aren't going to be within the law anyway, alcohol doesn't make it any worse.

The gold standard still remains the Mitchell Brothers. They wanted to make money and they did. But there are lots of ways to make money. They wanted to make money by thumbing their noses at the authorities. And lots of us admire them for that.

So Diane Feinstein had them busted. So they closed the theater and put on their marquis, "Call Diane Feinstein for show times." Jim said that he would not want to sell someone from out of town a ticket, and have them die of a heart attack in a bust. And they put up Feinstein's home telephone number. She changed her number three times, and they always had the new one up within 20 minutes.

Feinstein used to keep a map up on the wall of her office, with red stick pins everywhere their was a sex crime, and blue stick pins everywhere there was a "sex oriented business". And of course this runs completely contrary to what has been observed in The Netherlands. And it also runs completely contrary to the views of Jim and Artie's dancers. So lots of us admire Jim and Artie for standing up to her. She would go on to be a big factor in messing up the Internet with the Telecommunications Decency Act.

Artie talked about Nieman Marcus at Union Square. He told journalists that they were going to make the Nieman Marcus of sex. This was when they started with their pussy showing station, seats with windows looking in on a girl. But after they got busted, they responded by following through on their real plans, inspired by Amsterdam, taking the glass out to make it a DATY facility.

And all of this was coming out, when before there had been no stage side sitting or tipping. They started with girls just getting $25 per set, and movie theater seating, but no tipping. This was their live show on top of the movies.

It was into this that they introduced the idea of lap sitting, and they fought Diane Feinstein in the newspapers and they went through a felony jury trial over it. Not many brave enough to do that.

A girl on your lap is much better than "wanna dance". And that was also how they beat the felony wrap, no booths or back rooms, just an audience participation cabaret show, not actually fee for service.

And we read here about the much loved extreme clubs in other parts of the country. Some are in major metros, but some are out on the highways. Front room friendliness is the main factor in improving the quality, just letting girls do it the way they want. To set up a back room session, and with a guy they like and are getting comfortable with, they usually will do whatever it takes, just out of pride.

Girls don't like being highly regulated, and they don't like the sorts of bouncers who enforce those types of restrictions. And usually those bouncers are on the take too, because the girls need to be able to go over the limits to make money. So it turns into a stinking and very negative situation. And I believe that usually when there are violences or bouncers freelancing with a dancer, then it will have started with this practice of tipping out bouncers to be able to go over the rules. Jim and Artie never let things get that way. The rules ( no FS ) were the rules. No other rules. Bouncers were not to be freelancers.

Jim and Artie did what they did because they knew there was no real way for the authorities to win. The existing laws were nonenforceable, and just plain wrong.

No different today either. So many of us admire them, as did customers back then. And now remembering this, they did have salacious ads in the newspapers, ads which I am sure offended many. And again, Jim and Artie remain admired for this.

Something makes it hard in the Bay Area to open more clubs. And so the ones which exist are likely more valuable for their names and landmark real estate, than for their current receipts.

Something is wrong about it all. These operators who were failing to make money, I don't know why that would be. High insurances?

Most of the extreme clubs I have seen or heard of are just little places and they are considered expendable, and the chain of ownership of the business may be convoluted, and the manager doesn't run the girls, so the criminal and civil liability risks are lessened.

I suppose someone could start an extreme club and have it go well, and then after they got tired of running it and just couldn't deal with it anymore, they could offer it to Deja Vu. Then Deja Vu could claim that it was only barley making it. And in a sense that would be true. But experienced customers are still going to want the place where the girls can do things as they want, and this centers on front room intimacies.

Everyone should read: csul.iii.com

Jim and Artie were motivated by more than just money. Their father had been a professional card player. He hated cops because he saw them as an expression of moral hypocrisy.

Jim and been in a high rise building watching one of the largest SF State protests. It turned into a riot, and everyone back in Antioch blamed the student activists. But Jim saw for himself that it only turned bad when guys wearing sun glasses and talking into radio headsets started shoving people into the center of the crowd. And so when people tried to defend themselves, that's when the SFPD Tactical Squad came in, with their face shields and swinging their long night sticks.

So Jim and Artie wanted to antagonize the authorities, doing stuff which greatly angered them, but in ways that made it impossible for them to shut him down. And the dancers were completely on board for this, seeing themselves as spreading the sexual revolution to older people and to business travelers from more conservative parts of the country.

Now of course with DV in San Francisco now, the potential for getting the loosest is at those 4 unbranded no alcohol places. And Century is really big, and Darlings looks to be Black. Lots of ways to run a club and get money from it, but still keep some legal distance, so that it is no longer an LE target. In San Francisco, the newspapers are friendly, as mostly are the residents. So LE has to stay within Due Process, and if they become complicit, that will really hurt them.

So long as girls can basically use front room friendliness, often starting with lap sitting, in the ways that they want, and with the house only getting a cut when they move a guy to a booth or back room, then things are as good as they can be. Big common VIP rooms seem best, and just hiring as many girls as possible, so that there is always competition and there will be some who will have to work harder to compete with the others, then it is the best, the Sexual Disney Land which others had said about Market St. Cinema and pre-DV New Century.

Spectator Magazine had always made fun of Centerfolds, calling it McStrip Club. Seems intended for inexperienced tourists. The other Broadway places turned into more of the same. But now unbranded, there shouldn't need to be many limits on these other places. You always want it so that the girls are doing it how they want, and so that they are in competition. That really loosens them up. And the more that happens in the front room, the better, as that loosens everybody up. And those big common VIP rooms make life long impressions on people, like joc13 at pre-DV New Century. Making those kinds of impressions is what motivated Jim and Artie's dancers.

And then the membership club model still seems ideal. Very hard for LE to enforce anything in that sort of an environment. And I am sure that it cannot be made completely illegal.

SJG