America makes up something like 5% of the world's population but has the most prisoners at 20 something % of the world's prisoners. The religious do gooders and the right would rather have hookers and John's in jail(on taxpayer money). So it won't be legal anytime soon.
If man is still alive ...
Yeah, not holding my breath. Where I am, a protracted, 10-year battle just to open a downtown strip club finally ended. Just a strip club, and probably one where rules will be strictly enforced.
So no, not anytime soon.
Wow pessimistic thread.
Yes, we're packed with religious fundamentalists who need to know whether or not we're fucking their daughters and who lock people up for perceived infractions of social mores rather than for actually harmful behavior. Otherwise the corporate bankers who destroyed millions of life-savings would be in jail and the dude who pissed on the back of the dumpster at halftime would still have child-custody access. So, the pessimism might make sense.
But to the contrary, America (USA, that is) also has the world's most anti-government pro-libertarian strain of almost any political unit (nation or sub-unit, like state, province, etc.). Or so I heard, once, on the internet.
If we the people supposedly dislike gummint so much, then maybe we the people can be coaxed to get gumming out of our John-and-Monger enjoyment?
IMO th left/liberals may be as anti P4P as the right, if not more - Seattle ie one of the most liberal cities and is one of the most anti P4P and has taken the position of going after johns instead of the girls b/c apparently "the johns are the reason for these girls' issues" and of course "most of these girls are being trafficked".
According to the left a woman can do anything w/ her body she wants (have abirtions, go to war and serve in combat, etc), but these same women are not capable of choosing P4P and if they choose it then it's b/c someone forced them (including just the mere existence of johns)
In general it seems things are becoming more anti P4P vs less - many politicians are using it as an easy target for career advancement and why they are constantly throwing around the term human trafficking to sensationalize the headlines
There's too much hatred of it on both the far left and on the far right for it to ever get legalized. You're also not going to find defenders for it that aren't going to get destroyed politically if anyone tries to advance a bill for it. Might be like drugs where you can start to get it decriminalized, but on the whole it's just not happening, strictly regulated and super expensive brothels in Nevada aside.
The left ie now pushing the agenda that a man has to explicitly ask the woman's consent - i.e. if you go on a date with a chick and things heat up and you do the nasty, then if she has next day regrets according to the left you basically committed sexual assault b/c you didn't specifically stop in the heat of the moment to ask her explicit consent - according to the left a woman can do anything she wants to but apparently unable to say no if she does not wanna have sex
The answer it to put libertarians in charge not Libs or Cons.
They both want absolute control.
If you want to really piss off a liberal feminist who categorically states: "a woman's body is her's to do as she wishes" ask her when she will start support legalizing prostitution?
After all a woman's body is her own or can a woman only do with her body what the femi-nazi says she can. Both liberals and conservatives are different sides of the same "Do as I say or else" I should be in control of your life coin.
Never met a government official who did not think that they were smarter than everyone else even though they are to lazy and/or stupid to hold a real job. The average government employee either elected or appointed(including regular hires) are so arrogant and myopic they can't function in the real world.
I think you guys are missing the point. The people who don't want prostitution legalized are women. 50% of women think it should be illegal, whereas only 35% of men do. And when it comes to actually voting, I'm guessing a much higher percentage of women vote against legalizing.
They hate it because they HATE the idea of their husbands/boyfriends cheating on them. That's it. And as more and more women achieve political power, the likelihood that it will be legalized diminishes.
It ain't gonna happen.
If it was up to men, it would be legal tomorrow. But now as men recede even deeper into being total pussies, the likelihood has decreased to nil.
I agree w tiredtraveler. It's not a left/right thing. It's an authoritarian/libertarian thing. A far left authoritarian is a communist (like the feminazis). A far right authoritarian is fascism or fundameltist, a far left libertarian is a socialist, and a far right libertarian is an anarchist, but those are all still ways of carrying out the ppl values. A communist govt could force the girls w the most prostitute potential to work in govt run brothels, and the true libertarian govt would legalize it, but the groups who were against it could pay bounty hunters to scalp prostitues and Johns, if they wanted. Socialists would allow it, send any girl who wanted to be a prostitute to a govt paid school, liscense her, tax her, and require her to take tax paid health screenings. I think have a good idea of what fascists and fundamentalists would do.
As I've said before I think part of the problem is the government don't like people making money legally without being able to control and tax it. How many prostitutes are going to declare their earnings at all?
You'd have to make it deducatable for Johns and require her liscense number lol. Health expense ;). Then you could track it that way and match w what they declare.
I love the fact that after taking off from Heathrow in less than two-three hours I could be in a FKK getting my dick sucked. I just wished some of you guys (and girls - especially Lopaw) could join me one day.
I agree most politicians want to be the smartest person in the room. I worked for a former congressman in the private sector who was a jackass. He wasn't the smartest guy in the room in this scenario and he didn't like it.
As far as when prostitution will becoming legal in the US? Does the phrase "When hell freezes over" ring a bell?
Politicians can't agree on anything, but both sides agree on this. Even if they believe it should be, they won't say it publicly because they would be afraid they wouldn't be re-elected. Anthony Weiner was a politician who wishes it was legal. lol
Term limits should be implemented on all levels of government. Too many politicians do things to maintain their jobs instead of working for the people who elected them.
Why can't you guys have 'zones' where it is allowed and tolerated, why can't every city have it's own Pahrump?
Politicians are the ultimate hypocrites.
If they ever made prostitution legal in the United States it would in very short order become super expensive and nobody would patronize prostites that were working legally, than it would go back into the shadows where a few big corporations dominated the trade and they'd sic law enforcement on the independents.
Last night they aired an episode on Nightline ABC about a Seattle DA gonig after guys that write reviews w.r.t. an escort website - they were arrested as being sorta pimps by writing reviews recommending certain girls - this seems to me as Seattle's liberal bias where they go after the johns and treat the girls as helpless victims of which none choose to work voluntarily.
IMO the DA looks like a dick that's just looking to be a hero of the left by going after customers and "saving the girls from themselves"; to me the dick DA is basically self-promoting his personal career advancement - this seems to have been going on in Seattle for a while where they see themselves as ho-crusaders going after johns b/c in their eyes the johns are the reasons these girls do what they do (as if the girls didn't have a choice - some may not and may be forced into it but most do it as a choice just like women that choose to strip or do porn) - below is the nightline episode which is about 10-minutes long:
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Seattle gives us democrats (small "d" yes, and also big "D") a bad name. This thread is interesting for how prostitution (and adult-industry in general) crosses that borderline in the USA between anti-Liberal and anti-Conservative, or, should I say, anti-Republican-Party and anti-Democrat-Party.
How is that Seattle DA going to get around the First Amendment? Yeesh ... I bet he likes having his dick sucked by hot young women, just knows he can get re-elected for opposing it.
Yes, the people who will vote and protest against legal prostitution are mostly butt-ugly middle-aged housewives. How else would they ever cause their husbands to have to fuck them? Go to the gym? Lose weight? Learn to be adept at fellatio? Heavens no, that requires EFFORT.
Legal means different things. Sometimes there is licensing. Sometimes it is all just de-criminalized. And other times the authorities just have to admit that there is no way to enforce the laws without violating due process.
So a case in point, Mexico, based on all that I have read:
1. They had tolerance zones all over, but they closed most of them in the early 90's.
2. Brothels in Mexico are technically illegal, even in TJ's Zona. Only exception might be the walled Boy's Town in Nuevo Laredo. So in TJ you might notice that some of their massage parlors do not list addresses and they keep moving. This is because technically they are illegal, even in the Zona.
3. HK bar is legal, because it is not a brothel, it is a hooker bar. You meet girls and take them to a separate motel. In Mexico they follow due process. No way LE can prove that anyone is breaking any law.
3.5, Some of these places do have session rooms, and one might say that that makes it a brothel, but this would be very hard to prove without violating due process.
4. On the street in TJ's Zona, they allow licensed street hookers. But non-Mexican nationals can not be licensed and so they are not allowed to stand around and solicit. So they have to keep moving. People call these, usually from the US, Walker Chicas. In the US they would get busted. But in Mexico, even though they are not really legal, no real way to gain evidence that anyone is breaking the law without violating due process.
5. Go back and read about the LE campaign against PP Greenvile SC. How many busts did they make which actually showed that there had been a contract to sell sex or lewd conduct for money or other consideration, and without police entrapment?
6. Going back as far as the 1970's, the consensus was that it was impossible for LE to really make any dent in street prostitution. So it was not worth the effort.
7. In the 80's, a new generation of more conservative lawyers and politicians figured out ways to get around due process, to start arresting people for what it looked like they might be trying to do, and making intent into a crime, and especially just pressuring people into pleading guilty.
If you had a motel across the parking lot from a strip club, and it was all heavily used, by what practical means would LE be able to shut it down? And understanding this, how much difference really is there between the law in Mexico and the law in the US?
SJG
San Francisco did the same thing a decade ago as Seattle seems to be doing now. All sex workers are victims. All PLs are abusive, deviant, sex offenders in kahoots with trafficking and pimps.
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^^^^^^ They also pressure guys to plead guitly. The Nora Hoatling Program.
Terrance Hallinan made it clear that Strip Clubs and AMPs will not be bothered. But with this Nora Hoatling Program he cracked down on the street, and on the johns, like never before.
Conservative jurisdictions treat the prostitute as a social menace. Liberal jurisdictions treat the prostitute as a victim.
SJG
it's time American cities have hookers out on the open don't you think ? girls on Windows like Amsterdam , rows of girls in mini skirts on the streets asking men if the want some out in the open like Mexico , FKK whorehouses where men go and choose with food and girls like Germany , Blow job only bars like Asia , I can go on and on
"... it's time American cities have hookers out on the open don't you think ..."
I'd think we'd be a lot less-violent country and less-stressed - and men's life expectancy would probably increase (the Europeans fuck like crazy and are healthier than us)
They should keep it illegal and enforce it once in a while. The current situation maintains a fine balance.
There is enough scope of abuse if you legalize it. Keeping it illegal keeps the option open to prosecute when authorities discover something is really wrong.
Just a random statistic, in US an eastern European illegal immigrant in enforced prostitution can earn the retainers/handlers 5 million dollars in 5 years serving 0-5 times a day ---p.s. I am pro choice for the ladies as well as administration.
Not anytime soon with this FemiNazi driven phony war on women sweeping the country. Non make up wearing , non leg shaving C's who feel they know what's best for ALL women. Among other things, they crusade against adult entertainment . IMO they are by far the biggest hypocrites the left-wing has. Lead by a SHARIA practicing Palestinian / American woman ? Really ? How the hell does that work.
San Jose Guy - PP in Greenville was bad all the way around . I was there the night the bouncers strangled and killed the guy. It was one thing after another at that place. They used to run helicopter rides out of the back parking lot. Helicopter rides with strippers . No big deal and it was fun , but they didn't even attempt to keep it on the QT.
Legal prostitution in the US is now limited to a few places in Nevada - says the media - and most people buy that line. But Rhode Island doesn't prohibit private agreements between consenting adults. Yeah, I know, recent laws have made the Providence clubs "clean up." But the new rules were about clubs. Several other places all across the US allow a quiet continuation of the world's oldest profession. Only when the action makes the news do the "officials" do something about it. (and no matter what political "lean" you support, we all know the news leans left)
Interestingly, while "conservatives," "Republicans," and "religious do gooders" talk about stopping lewd behavior, they are seldom the ones to enact prohibitive legislation. The places with the most restrictive rules, and the most enforcement, are liberal enclaves. I guess the left needs to control everything, or at least be "seen" to be doing "something." Don't forget, it is a hoard of liberal women who insist that sex trafficking is a crisis and laws must be passed!
The bottom line is that neither the left not the right has a lock on prohibiting or allowing prostitution. Both sides have reason to use the issue for their own political gains. And prostitution is an easy target, no lobbyists, no major political contributors, and no union to object. While the swing between permissive and restrictive public action will continue, so will the industry of prostitution continue. It may never be "legalized" but it will continue.
I think that the motives are different on the left and right. The right values its supposed "moral superiority" and therefore opposes universal free sex, interesting since they put so little value on human life in any other venue.
On the far left, strip clubs in general and prostitution in particular are viewed as exploiting women.
Legalizing prostitution would allow it to in the open, healthier for the women and men who choose to be involved in it, and generally far less exploitive than the current system run by pimps.
The boundaries are already getting blurred with "escorts" becoming more common. Women are paid only for their "time and companionship" and anything else is "based the attraction between the customer and the escort".
ATACdawg has got it right. The Right wants to control sex, and so it needs to lock up all the bad women. And the Left wants to protect women. But does the Left really care? Or its it just trying to protect women from themselves because it also want to control sex? Amnesty International says that the best way to protect sex workers is de-criminalization.
Nemesisk the out in the open prostitution is limited everywhere, even in Mexico. Even in TJ's Zona, brothels are technically illegal. So their massage parlors advertise no address, as technically they are illegal, and so too would be places where girls sit in windows. These would force the authorities to bust them, or change their laws.
But consider the following. Say I own a strip club. And say across the parking lot my good buddy Juice has built a motel where his trailer park used to be.
Now we are both making mortgage payments to Dougster. But we'll leave this be for now.
So all day and all night, painted up girls in their stripper shoes are wearing robes:
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and walking with guys from my strip club to Juice's motel.
If you just apply US law and the Constitution as written, how is it possible for LE to do anything about any of this? And even if they do bust a couple of people, that is just a low lever misdemeanor, and so what.
The operation will continue. US laws are not as much different from Mexican laws as they may look. And at least in this area, Mexico is remaining truer to the principle of due process.
And of course in my strip club front room makeout sessions will be the norm, just like in Mexico, and there will be front room FIV and DATY, and maybe more. So we make it a members only club. This does not get us out from under the prostitution law, but it does exempt us from any laws about public sex and lewdness.
So how could LE touch us, without engaging in entrapment, in bullying, and trashing due process?
SJG
I wish it were that easy, SJG.
If the business is within a municipality, they can revoke your business license as a public nuisance. If you serve alcohol, they can revoke your liquor license. Unless the businesses are in an unincorporated, unregulated, unlicensed area, I imagine The Man will find a way to quash it.
If only . . . the gov't would stay out of my pants!!
Public nuisance requires lots of police calls, and police have to find some illegality, not just people who don't like the biz. Where can they find illegality in this, and what are they having to do to find this?
Of course you don't want to serve alcohol, as that does open you to being closed by civil procedures instead of criminal.
Well, unincorporated areas still have laws.
I agree with you that they will find a way. But do you see my point, the ones breaking the law are the authorities, not the strip club dancers or the customers, going in this example from my strip club, and to Juice's motel.
In Mexico, brothels are illegal, even in TJ's Zona. But there is a huge industry and people love it. In Mexico, LE, at least in this realm, is adhering to due process.
The Mitchell Bro's were able to beat LE, because they hired great lawyers and never would cop any plea, and because the newspapers were on their side, making horrible fun of LE. Most metros are not like SF, and most club owners are not like Jim and Artie Mitchell.
Also, with some help with California Supreme Court Chief Justice Rose Bird, Jim and Artie were always able to get it shifted out from under these Victorian Era Red Light Abatement Laws and the Civil Court, and into the Criminal Court, and to be decided by a Jury, requiring a unanimous decision and with the standard of proof being proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
Oakland had this place called Edgewater West, calling itself an Adult Resort. Nominally a swingers club. Private club, not retail. Basically a 3 story motel with a big center atrium and a big lounge room. Started having lap dancers in this lounge room.
Now no one told me this, but to me it sounded like it was crossing over the line from Swingers Club to P4P. If you gave money to one of these hardbody young lap dancers ( I'd seen pictures ) they would go with you to your room and deliver.
LE was never able to touch it!
What did happen though was Oakland decided to redevelop that area, near the airport, and they demolished the building.
If I get to have my motorhome in a strip club parking lot, and am parading girls in their stripper shoes out thru the parking lot, is LE going to bother us? I don't think so.
We need to analyze these situations and see how it is LE that is breaking laws, and expose this!
Almost all enforcement against prostitution is when it involves immigrants or minorities, and where it services low income people. Very very rarely are white high priced escorts busted.
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SJG
The Power and Meaning of Sigils
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Well, as it is now, laws against prostitution are very rarely enforced against upscale escorts, and especially if they are white. Usually it is enforced when it pertains to immigrants and minorities, and when it is econo priced.
When it is upscale, no one worries about it.
Enforcement against Heidi Fliess and her predecessor Madam Alex were extremely rare exceptions.
SJG
When the Ubermensh is born and Dougster's plan goes into action:
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Who likes organ music?
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Obviously, we need more people with guns
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Eliot Spitzer is a very talented politician that was in route to be a presidential candidate in the future but his career was blown up merely for paying for pussy with escorts
I'm more optimistic than most of you. Eventually some blue state will decide it's better off controlled and taxed and then it'll be a slow domino effect from there. I think it'll happen withing 15 years.
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