GOAT
flagooner
Everything written by this member is a fact.
I sent Nina an IM telling her that I was writing that LeBron is GOAT mainly to see if I could entice debate on it. She acknowledged receiving it, but wouldn't open and read it. Instead she felt obliged to argue with my assertion. So predictable. ;-)
Anyway here is my argument for who deserves to be called the GOAT.
First, when I talk about the Greatest Of All Time I talk about the greatest all-around player… not the best player on the best team, not the best resume, not the fans’ favorite, not the most dynamic player, not the best scorer… but the player who was the best when all aspects of being a player are taken into account combined with whose inclusion on a team improved that team the most.
There are a lot of players that get brought up in the discussion, but when taking everything into account many of them can be discounted.
Lew Alcindor/Kareem Adbul-Jabbar – During his prime he was arguably the best the game had ever seen. But he was the classic big man of the time with all the limitations that came with that. He wasn’t a shooter outside 10 feet, though he did have that awesome sky hook. But he was lacking in a lot of areas: outside shooting, ball handling, even defense, and he was slow
Magic Johnson – Transformed the game. 6’9” and ran the point better than anyone. Vision and passing. He could play all 5 positions (though I would argue he wouldn’t be exceptional at either SG or SF). But he was slow and wasn’t much of a shooter and that is such a huge skill in the game. Defensively he was also subpar.
Bill Russell – Great winner. All those championships and a great defender, but offensively he was severely lacking, never averaged more than 20ppg and only 15ppg for his career. And all those championships came with the same team when the league only had about 15 teams. Is that a testament to the player or the team and the competition?
Wilt Chamberlain – I’d say he was the most dominant player. Scoring, Rebounding, he even led the league in assists one year. But he was an awful shooter, not just bad but awful outside of 2 feet.
Larry Bird – He was awesome. Arguably the best white player ever so I’m sure that is a reason a lot of people include him. He was a GREAT shooter, and an excellent passer, rebounder, leader, intelligent… But he was also limited athletically, slow and a bad defender, not to mention he (along with Kareem) is probably the ugliest of all the players being mentioned.
There are others that get brought up sometimes as well: Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Hakeem Olajuwan, Clyde Drexler, Shaquille O’Neal, Allen Iverson, Pistol Pete, Len Bias (yeah I had to get my personal favorite in there, damn he would have been awesome), and many others…
But let’s get real… MJ is the most commonly considered GOAT so let’s compare him and LeBron head-to-head.
Most of the conversations around who is the GOAT inevitably comes down to the argument that Michael was 6-0 in the NBA finals and a 6-time Finals MVP. I’m not denying the MJ was great. He was, but this is more an argument that he was undeniably the player that contributed the most to the best team for those six years, not necessarily the greatest player ever. If that is the only criteria for GOAT you would have to consider Bill Russell. Let’s look at some other measures.
Size
LBJ 6’8” 250lbs
MJ 6’6” 195lbs
All things even, in basketball I would argue most would take the bigger man.
Versatility
LBJ can excel both offensively and defensively at all 5 positions
MJ can play all 5 but would get taken advantage of at PF and C at the defensive end simply because of his size
Now for the resume items.
What he brings to his team. This is one item where they can uniquely be compared due to similar circumstances.
In the 2010-2011 season LBJ led an otherwise sub-par CLE team to the best record in the East and to the NBA finals (but lost). He then left for 3 years during which time CLE was 15th (last), 13th, and 13th in the East. He returned to CLE and that year they were 2nd in the East and returned to the Finals, the following year they had the best record in the East and won the Finals, then this year they are in the finals again.
MJ led his team to NBA titles in 1991, 1992, and 1993 before leaving for 2 years. In those 2 years the Bulls finished with the 3rd and 5th best records in the conference, both years getting to and winning a series in the playoffs. When he returned he led them to 3 more championships.
Stats (both have played about the same number of career games) These results surprised me when I looked them up
Regular Season
PPG FG% 3PT% RPG APG
MJ 30.1 49.7% 32.7% 6.2 5.3
LBJ 27.1 50.1% 34.2% 7.3 7.0
Post Season
MJ 33.4 48.7 33.2% 6.4 5.7
LBJ 32.4 55.9% 41.2% 8.9 7.8
This shows me that MJ was a slightly better scorer, but looking at the all-around player, LBJ was a more efficient shooter and contributed better with rebounds and getting his teammates involved with assists. Also note, LBJs numbers improved more than MJs in the playoffs
Playing Style (another versatility take)
MJ had unmatched flair and showmanship. He could even stick his tongue out when he dunked, and fishsticks probably thinks that his winning the slam dunk contest means he’s the greatest player. But he never had to adapt his playing style. He won 6 championships, but all came with the same Hall of Fame coach and Hall of Fame sidekick. The cast surrounding them changed but they were like-for-like replacements for the most part. The style of play was always the same.
LBJ led 2 different franchises to 3 championships and counting. This was under 3 completely different casts and styles of play under 3 different coaches, none of which are likely to become Hall of Famers.
Best Team Achievement/Worst Team Failure
Best - LBJ’s CLE team beat the GSW team that had the best regular season record in NBA history. MJ never won a title when his team was not clearly the best.
Worst - LBJ’s MIA team lost to the Mavs. MJ never lost a title when his team was clearly the best.
This one’s a push
After all that, who do YOU consider is the real GOAT?
It’s not even debatable. I think all of us TUSCLers have to give it to Wilt Chamberlain. He fucked 20,000 women.
Mic dropped again
Anyway here is my argument for who deserves to be called the GOAT.
First, when I talk about the Greatest Of All Time I talk about the greatest all-around player… not the best player on the best team, not the best resume, not the fans’ favorite, not the most dynamic player, not the best scorer… but the player who was the best when all aspects of being a player are taken into account combined with whose inclusion on a team improved that team the most.
There are a lot of players that get brought up in the discussion, but when taking everything into account many of them can be discounted.
Lew Alcindor/Kareem Adbul-Jabbar – During his prime he was arguably the best the game had ever seen. But he was the classic big man of the time with all the limitations that came with that. He wasn’t a shooter outside 10 feet, though he did have that awesome sky hook. But he was lacking in a lot of areas: outside shooting, ball handling, even defense, and he was slow
Magic Johnson – Transformed the game. 6’9” and ran the point better than anyone. Vision and passing. He could play all 5 positions (though I would argue he wouldn’t be exceptional at either SG or SF). But he was slow and wasn’t much of a shooter and that is such a huge skill in the game. Defensively he was also subpar.
Bill Russell – Great winner. All those championships and a great defender, but offensively he was severely lacking, never averaged more than 20ppg and only 15ppg for his career. And all those championships came with the same team when the league only had about 15 teams. Is that a testament to the player or the team and the competition?
Wilt Chamberlain – I’d say he was the most dominant player. Scoring, Rebounding, he even led the league in assists one year. But he was an awful shooter, not just bad but awful outside of 2 feet.
Larry Bird – He was awesome. Arguably the best white player ever so I’m sure that is a reason a lot of people include him. He was a GREAT shooter, and an excellent passer, rebounder, leader, intelligent… But he was also limited athletically, slow and a bad defender, not to mention he (along with Kareem) is probably the ugliest of all the players being mentioned.
There are others that get brought up sometimes as well: Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Hakeem Olajuwan, Clyde Drexler, Shaquille O’Neal, Allen Iverson, Pistol Pete, Len Bias (yeah I had to get my personal favorite in there, damn he would have been awesome), and many others…
But let’s get real… MJ is the most commonly considered GOAT so let’s compare him and LeBron head-to-head.
Most of the conversations around who is the GOAT inevitably comes down to the argument that Michael was 6-0 in the NBA finals and a 6-time Finals MVP. I’m not denying the MJ was great. He was, but this is more an argument that he was undeniably the player that contributed the most to the best team for those six years, not necessarily the greatest player ever. If that is the only criteria for GOAT you would have to consider Bill Russell. Let’s look at some other measures.
Size
LBJ 6’8” 250lbs
MJ 6’6” 195lbs
All things even, in basketball I would argue most would take the bigger man.
Versatility
LBJ can excel both offensively and defensively at all 5 positions
MJ can play all 5 but would get taken advantage of at PF and C at the defensive end simply because of his size
Now for the resume items.
What he brings to his team. This is one item where they can uniquely be compared due to similar circumstances.
In the 2010-2011 season LBJ led an otherwise sub-par CLE team to the best record in the East and to the NBA finals (but lost). He then left for 3 years during which time CLE was 15th (last), 13th, and 13th in the East. He returned to CLE and that year they were 2nd in the East and returned to the Finals, the following year they had the best record in the East and won the Finals, then this year they are in the finals again.
MJ led his team to NBA titles in 1991, 1992, and 1993 before leaving for 2 years. In those 2 years the Bulls finished with the 3rd and 5th best records in the conference, both years getting to and winning a series in the playoffs. When he returned he led them to 3 more championships.
Stats (both have played about the same number of career games) These results surprised me when I looked them up
Regular Season
PPG FG% 3PT% RPG APG
MJ 30.1 49.7% 32.7% 6.2 5.3
LBJ 27.1 50.1% 34.2% 7.3 7.0
Post Season
MJ 33.4 48.7 33.2% 6.4 5.7
LBJ 32.4 55.9% 41.2% 8.9 7.8
This shows me that MJ was a slightly better scorer, but looking at the all-around player, LBJ was a more efficient shooter and contributed better with rebounds and getting his teammates involved with assists. Also note, LBJs numbers improved more than MJs in the playoffs
Playing Style (another versatility take)
MJ had unmatched flair and showmanship. He could even stick his tongue out when he dunked, and fishsticks probably thinks that his winning the slam dunk contest means he’s the greatest player. But he never had to adapt his playing style. He won 6 championships, but all came with the same Hall of Fame coach and Hall of Fame sidekick. The cast surrounding them changed but they were like-for-like replacements for the most part. The style of play was always the same.
LBJ led 2 different franchises to 3 championships and counting. This was under 3 completely different casts and styles of play under 3 different coaches, none of which are likely to become Hall of Famers.
Best Team Achievement/Worst Team Failure
Best - LBJ’s CLE team beat the GSW team that had the best regular season record in NBA history. MJ never won a title when his team was not clearly the best.
Worst - LBJ’s MIA team lost to the Mavs. MJ never lost a title when his team was clearly the best.
This one’s a push
After all that, who do YOU consider is the real GOAT?
It’s not even debatable. I think all of us TUSCLers have to give it to Wilt Chamberlain. He fucked 20,000 women.
Mic dropped again
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24 comments
I pick Jordan.
Also, IMO, today's players would not fair as well back in the day when full contact defense was allowed. I gotta think Dennis Rodman in his prime would shut down LBJ under 90's era rules.
Magic
Kareem
Kobe
Maybe Bill Russell and Wilt
That's it. End of story.
He's a great player, one of the best but i don't consider him the GOAT.
I don't consider him the GOAT either but my favorite all time player was also Dr J. He was so fluid going to the basket and i watched him launch from the foul line and soar to the basket for a dunk countless times.
I recently watched an ESPN 30 for 30 on the Bad Boys of Detroit beating the shit out of their opponents (the Bulls) and being PRAISED for their "solid playoff fouls". We will never know if LBJ would deliver blows under such a system or be as healthy as he has been able to be under such loose rules interpretation.
We have to all agree that the NBA is soft today compared to 25 years ago.
Count my vote for Jordan as GOAT. LBJ in top 11, though.
MJ, Magic, Kareem, Russell, Bird, LBJ, Chamberlain, Bryant, Erving, Shaq and Jerry West (the dang NBA logo, for gosh sake).
LBJ jumping from contender to contender and reverse engineering teammates disqualifies him from GOAT status, IMO.
Now that is the kind of comment that doesn't have anything to do with being the GOAT. It taints accomplishments but has nothing to do with how good of a player he is/was.
MJ revolutionized the game of professional basketball, all the way from the baggy shorts to the tongue waggle. Not to mention the endorsement game with Nike. Loved my Air Jordans! Everybody wanted to be like Mike.
Glad MJ became an NBA team owner. Only Magic has demonstrated the same level of sports business ownership savvy.
Certainly. Mentally and physically.
What's up
I was at the first Cavs game in the Gund arena (now Quicken Loans) and I was at the first game (in Cleveland) that Jordan played coming out of retirement.
One thing not mentioned that drives me nuts is many people say MJ didn't have all the "help" that LeBron does. Are people nuts? MJ always had a Hall of Fame caliber supporting cast and arguably the best coach ever. LeBron has played with what? 3 potential hall of famers and one was way past his prime (Shaq).
Still love Dr J, such a classy and fluid player.
If you took the top 10 guys mentioned above in their primes and had them lined up on a pick-up court (or an imaginary draft) to start a team and had the first pick... who would you choose?
I would go with the player who has the best overall skill set and ability to make the rest of my picks to play at their highest level. For me, that would narrow it down to Magic or LBJ, and based on scoring ability and defense I would take LBJ.
No you can't. Don't be ridiculous.
@ Longball. Exactly. To me GOAT is the greatest player, not the player who has accumulated the best resume.
Why does your tuscl resume matter? In that case a guy can write a few well written reviews and be the best reviewer.
Of the group of goat canditates, I would want The proven winners, and competitors. I want the guys that not only make everyone else better but have what it takes to not rely on the second or third option when the game is on the line. Based on that criteria, jordan, kobe, kareem, magic, all would get a spot on my team before LeBron. What good is he as talented as he is, if he is going to pass the ball to Jordan or Kobe Or Kareem anyway? I'll pick magic for that.
True. If they are the BEST written reviews. Best is best, not most prolific.
The best player will inevitably build an impressive resume, it just might not be the BEST resume due to many factors that aren't under their control.
Basketball is a team game.
To discount that FACT and to only look at how well a player performs in an isolation game is simply myopic.
Thanks for leaving Kobe out. He's so overrated out here in SoCal.
BTW, Larry Bird is one ugly white dude, isn't he?