Funny. I had it the other way around. ITC and OTC, I spoil the shit out of her and she knows it. There's a long line wanting to take her place and I'd get twice the mileage, but we just click so well I haven't been ready to make that move. She is amazing, I love the ride and I've put up with a lot to maintain it, but the idea of letting go is in shifting into overdrive.
What more does she want? It's funny; a long term ATF can get like any relationship for both parties involved. Complacency can set in, sex can become hum drum, you've heard each other's stories at least twice, etc.
I've been getting really pissed at my ATF and yesterday we were in my car for a 3 hour drive and I shut off the music and I enumerated every concern I see in our relationship. She acknowledged some ownership, she blamed other factors for some issues and turned some back on me. I ended by saying maybe we just need a month apart from each other .
Four hours later I texted her that I can't picture my life without her in it. But I still want to take a break, let her evaluate life without my income & my pre ensue & vice versa.
Gawker hit the nail square, let her spend a few weeks contemplating life without your contribution, better yet make some other CFs and let her show you that she is willing to make you happy.
The only two things I have to do are stay black and die.
Gawkers suggestion is spot on and a month might not be long enough. She thinks she controls the narrative and can pressure you into doing more if you want her. The narrative is you can find a new dancer to spend your money on so if she wants your money she needs to change her thought process.
Agree with gawker about complacency setting in with long term ATFs... but, the other thing that can happen well before "long term", once you're past those first few honeymoon weeks, is that one partner or both, who used to feel _gratitude_ for what the other partner does for them, now is just used to it and not only feels _entitled_, but feels they deserve more, and once that happens, _resentment_ seeps in also..
Obviously, I resonate more with the customer perspective on this -- I spent all this money on that girl and now she says it's not enough. But I have to grudgingly admit that it's VERY EASY for both sides to be part of it. For example, as a customer, it's easy for me to be acutely aware of how much money I'm giving her, but far less aware of how much she's giving back to me -- she's become my ATF because the sex is amazing and it feels so natural that I feel like she's not even working, to buy into the illusion she created that she's enjoying it just as much as I am. Meanwhile, she is giving a TON of herself to make it seem that way, plus I'm completely unaware of how much of her attention I'm demanding in other ways.
One stripper who I'm good friends with now has chronicled for me her experience with her whale, over the past few months. He's become more entitled and demanding, little by little -- based on her side of the story, at least, I'm not even sure he's aware of it. She, irritated at what she perceives as his lack of appreciation for what she does for him despite the fact that she's given him a little more and a little more, has finally given him the "you have to do more for me" speech. I only have her side of the story, but based on that, I'm with her... he's been slowly but surely demanding more and more from her, being needy or angry when he doesn't get it, etc., and even his current generous level of remuneration isn't worth it for her anymore.
Anyway! Not saying that's remotely Imamutt's case... again, from my perspective, I think it's the stripper more often than the customer who gets ever-greedier. I'm just saying the customer has a hand in it, pushing for a little more here and a little more there, more often than we think.
Amazing how often we seem to be heading in another direction then they are. My CF is thinking the same thing and I'm thinking of moving on from her. The problem is if we stop our thing she will work in the club more and it's kinda like when you break up with a GF if your not with her anymore you don't really want to have to look at her all the time.
Yeah. It's all about her sense of entitlement, but I need to own up to the fact that I have allowed it. She is so fine and sweet, but lots of baggage there too, so no one stays long with her. I am a very tolerant and faithful guy, however she has about worn out the opportunity that will never be available to another.
You have a good perspective regarding your relationship. It's something that can happen in any relationship - as one partner can take the other for granted. As gawker said - a bit of a break isn't always a bad thing. A break will hopefully make you desire her more - and it should help her to see things in a less entitled way. Possibly, her loss of your good treatment and the loss of your cash flow - will show her what she's missing.
I don't want to sound harsh - but it's also business. If you don't feel your money (and business) is appreciated - then you should shop around for something more desirable. I wouldn't think twice about sniffing around another tree - if I wasn't feeling satisfied and appreciated.
My ATF says the number reason she looses or cant keep regulars is they text her all day and waste her time and get needy with no plans to compensate her. The quick relationships end with her either blocking their number or when the regular realizes she wont be his GF. I have appologized to ATF for over texting her, but I told her sometimes I stay quiet just to give her space for her private life, not that im cold. She tightened her arm around me ITC on main floor and smiled when i said that. I also let her partially know about other SCs I visit and told her specifically "If a guy is with one girl over and over, he will want to put a ring on it and I don't think you want that?" she said no and laughed. So she knows shes not the only one. She is indishtingguishable from a civie GF in VIP room, and a close (I don't want to say best friend) friend ITC and OTC. She has never ever asked me for money above club minimums.
I think Subra brought up a good-point about also looking at it from a dancer's POV.
There's always 2-sides to the coin - we often post about entitled and/or delusional dancers; but then same can apply to the other side of the coin and say many PLs are also entitled and/or delusional.
We as PLs often times expect a dancer to be at our beckon call - e.g.:
+ they better be there when we tell them we are going to be in the club
+ they better be there waiting and not be w/ anyone else as soon as we show-up
+ they better always be available when we call
Yet, I'm sure there are times when we ourselves; even if it's for legitimate reasons; may not be there on time ourselves; may not even be able to make-it; or may tell them no when they call *us* to meet-up - in essence we get w/ them when we want-to but often do not afford the dancers the same flexibility.
We PLs can be delusional in wanting/expecting these girls to act as our civvy GFs - e.g.:
+ I want you to answer my texts/calls every time I contact you
+ I want you to do X,Y,Z with me (dinner, going-out, etc).
As I often post, strip-clubs are bizarro-world, the opposite of the real-world - in the real-world it is often the female that gets emotionally attached whereas for the male it may just be business (e.g. sex) - in SC bizarro-world, PLs are often the ones that get emotionally attached where it's business ($$$) for the dancers.
Many of us PLs are trying to have our cake and eat it too - i.e. have a chick that will fuck us for $$$ on-command yet expect her to act as a civvy GF and IMO these two things are kinda at odds w/ each other - expecting chicks that fuck us for $$$ to do or be anything beyond that IMO is unrealistic and is a recipe for frustration and disillusion.
Additionally, many of these chicks have issues in their lives/personality and if one insists in being with-them and thus be part of their lives OTC then one will often get caught-up in their problems/issues (you play with fire ....) - hard to just get the good stuff (a hot chick fucking us) and not any of the other stuff that comes with them.
IMO the OTC custy/dancer relationship; is often just an illusion and many PLs expect some type of realness from such relationships - or as TUSCLer Lone_Wolf posted on March 23, 2016:
"... This is an excellent example of why, for the majority, the shelf life of an OTC relationship with a favorite is often relatively short. The p4p relationship morphs from straight pay for fucking to favors, mentoring, blurry friendships. Relationship expectations are built on the sandy foundation of p4p which is recipe for disaster. I almost think it really is inevitable in most these type relationships ..."
I've done a break several times from my ATF. The last one she initiated by going to drug detox in Tijuana and then to Hawaii for a week or so. I hooked up with another dancer from her club while she was away and let my ATF know about it. She then began posting pics on FB of her with other guys. She puts up her bravado, says she doesn't give a shit, and frankly she's much more likely to snag any guy she wants than I am to ensnare a dancer with her looks & skills. But she eventually calls or texts me and we reunite. In some ways it's a game, but a fun one.
Great insight all. Yes any relationship business, personal, blended, takes work I think, know, a break does wonders. I'm sure to miss her more than she does me, but I am patient and she always comes back around to me bc I am a sure thing.
Papi: It's been eye-opening watching this from the other side. In this case, all my loyalty lies with my stripper friend, not her whale, and of course I only hear her side of the story. That said, as she tells me about it, I understand his motivations and what he's thinking, as clearly as if I were reading his mind. She, meanwhile, is a bit puzzled by his motivations, and when that happens, she does the EXACT SAME THING WE DO when we're puzzled by stripper motivations: ascribes it to malicious motivations that aren't always there. I can totally understand where the whale coming from, but he's making some mistakes that I typically don't -- hoping his generosity buys true affection from her (rather than just the gratitude he does deserve), believing that without his money she'd be far worse off (a top-of-the-foodchain stripper can always find another whale), and fantasizing that the money he gives her is voluntary "helping her out" and that she truly would love to spend tons of time with him (rather than this being a clear quid-pro-quo transaction of time-for-money)
Anyway, again, no reason to believe that's Imamutt's situation at all. Just some interesting meta-discussion.
What Subraman said. Can't really add too much more than that.
I used to be one of the needy ones. Until about 25 years ago when one of my favorites made many of the same observations Subra and Papi have made.
Somewhat ironically, those revelations made my stripper relationships easier for me, and I suspect for many of the strippers involved. :)
Strippers are there to make money. If you interfere with that, or with her prospects for *future* income by trying to monopolize her time when she could be "courting" new customers, she's gonna resent it.
My ATF would always, and the MILF currently does, acknowledge my presence, usually including coming to tell me her status. My response is always of the form, "No worries, if you get free, great. If not, you know I'll be back."
If anything, I am too passive. She'll spend more time chatting up a potential prospect that isn't spending than with me when I'm spending good money on her. If she lands a whale, I'll find something else to do. As in my OT, I"d easily get double mileage out of any other one.
If anything, I am too passive. She'll spend more time chatting up a potential prospect that isn't spending than with me when I'm spending good money on her. If she lands a whale, I'll find something else to do. As in my OT, I"d easily get double mileage out of any other one.
I only took one side of the coin/argument in my post-above; i.e. the dancer's POV; for the sole purpose that we/I often don't put too-much, or the needed amount, of thought into seeing it from their POV.
But as mentioned there are two sides to the coin and def often times many a PL will often get scraps/not-their-money's worth.
Most SCers are infrequent visitors and/or have not been TUSCLarly educated (IMO one can have gone to SCs for a good while yet not be aware of the many dynamics that are discussed and brought to light here in TUSCL PL University).
Dancers on the other hand are in the strip-club multiple times per week often week in and week out and IMO most def get to hone their skills (taking $$$ from PLs) - so often times in the confines of a SC many a PL is overmatched by a dancer's game that she's been working-on and getting better at for some time thus IMO leading to often times a PL not getting fair-value for his investment.
Thus there are two sides to the coin (blame on both sides), IMO.
In life many will say there are two things one can do when faced with a problem - do something about it - or don't worry about-it if there's nothing you can do.
Perhaps the same can apply to dealing with dancers:
a) analyze the situation and decide whether you are getting *fair* valuie of your investment - if you honeslty don't think you are then remedy the situation by coming to a concensus/agreement with the dancer or seek greener pastures
b) accept her for what she is/does and take the good w/ the bad if it's worth-it for you
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I've been getting really pissed at my ATF and yesterday we were in my car for a 3 hour drive and I shut off the music and I enumerated every concern I see in our relationship. She acknowledged some ownership, she blamed other factors for some issues and turned some back on me. I ended by saying maybe we just need a month apart from each other .
Four hours later I texted her that I can't picture my life without her in it. But I still want to take a break, let her evaluate life without my income & my pre ensue & vice versa.
Gawkers suggestion is spot on and a month might not be long enough. She thinks she controls the narrative and can pressure you into doing more if you want her. The narrative is you can find a new dancer to spend your money on so if she wants your money she needs to change her thought process.
Obviously, I resonate more with the customer perspective on this -- I spent all this money on that girl and now she says it's not enough. But I have to grudgingly admit that it's VERY EASY for both sides to be part of it. For example, as a customer, it's easy for me to be acutely aware of how much money I'm giving her, but far less aware of how much she's giving back to me -- she's become my ATF because the sex is amazing and it feels so natural that I feel like she's not even working, to buy into the illusion she created that she's enjoying it just as much as I am. Meanwhile, she is giving a TON of herself to make it seem that way, plus I'm completely unaware of how much of her attention I'm demanding in other ways.
One stripper who I'm good friends with now has chronicled for me her experience with her whale, over the past few months. He's become more entitled and demanding, little by little -- based on her side of the story, at least, I'm not even sure he's aware of it. She, irritated at what she perceives as his lack of appreciation for what she does for him despite the fact that she's given him a little more and a little more, has finally given him the "you have to do more for me" speech. I only have her side of the story, but based on that, I'm with her... he's been slowly but surely demanding more and more from her, being needy or angry when he doesn't get it, etc., and even his current generous level of remuneration isn't worth it for her anymore.
Anyway! Not saying that's remotely Imamutt's case... again, from my perspective, I think it's the stripper more often than the customer who gets ever-greedier. I'm just saying the customer has a hand in it, pushing for a little more here and a little more there, more often than we think.
I don't want to sound harsh - but it's also business. If you don't feel your money (and business) is appreciated - then you should shop around for something more desirable. I wouldn't think twice about sniffing around another tree - if I wasn't feeling satisfied and appreciated.
There's always 2-sides to the coin - we often post about entitled and/or delusional dancers; but then same can apply to the other side of the coin and say many PLs are also entitled and/or delusional.
We as PLs often times expect a dancer to be at our beckon call - e.g.:
+ they better be there when we tell them we are going to be in the club
+ they better be there waiting and not be w/ anyone else as soon as we show-up
+ they better always be available when we call
Yet, I'm sure there are times when we ourselves; even if it's for legitimate reasons; may not be there on time ourselves; may not even be able to make-it; or may tell them no when they call *us* to meet-up - in essence we get w/ them when we want-to but often do not afford the dancers the same flexibility.
We PLs can be delusional in wanting/expecting these girls to act as our civvy GFs - e.g.:
+ I want you to answer my texts/calls every time I contact you
+ I want you to do X,Y,Z with me (dinner, going-out, etc).
As I often post, strip-clubs are bizarro-world, the opposite of the real-world - in the real-world it is often the female that gets emotionally attached whereas for the male it may just be business (e.g. sex) - in SC bizarro-world, PLs are often the ones that get emotionally attached where it's business ($$$) for the dancers.
Many of us PLs are trying to have our cake and eat it too - i.e. have a chick that will fuck us for $$$ on-command yet expect her to act as a civvy GF and IMO these two things are kinda at odds w/ each other - expecting chicks that fuck us for $$$ to do or be anything beyond that IMO is unrealistic and is a recipe for frustration and disillusion.
Additionally, many of these chicks have issues in their lives/personality and if one insists in being with-them and thus be part of their lives OTC then one will often get caught-up in their problems/issues (you play with fire ....) - hard to just get the good stuff (a hot chick fucking us) and not any of the other stuff that comes with them.
IMO the OTC custy/dancer relationship; is often just an illusion and many PLs expect some type of realness from such relationships - or as TUSCLer Lone_Wolf posted on March 23, 2016:
"... This is an excellent example of why, for the majority, the shelf life of an OTC relationship with a favorite is often relatively short. The p4p relationship morphs from straight pay for fucking to favors, mentoring, blurry friendships. Relationship expectations are built on the sandy foundation of p4p which is recipe for disaster. I almost think it really is inevitable in most these type relationships ..."
Anyway, again, no reason to believe that's Imamutt's situation at all. Just some interesting meta-discussion.
I used to be one of the needy ones. Until about 25 years ago when one of my favorites made many of the same observations Subra and Papi have made.
Somewhat ironically, those revelations made my stripper relationships easier for me, and I suspect for many of the strippers involved. :)
Strippers are there to make money. If you interfere with that, or with her prospects for *future* income by trying to monopolize her time when she could be "courting" new customers, she's gonna resent it.
My ATF would always, and the MILF currently does, acknowledge my presence, usually including coming to tell me her status. My response is always of the form, "No worries, if you get free, great. If not, you know I'll be back."
:)
I only took one side of the coin/argument in my post-above; i.e. the dancer's POV; for the sole purpose that we/I often don't put too-much, or the needed amount, of thought into seeing it from their POV.
But as mentioned there are two sides to the coin and def often times many a PL will often get scraps/not-their-money's worth.
Most SCers are infrequent visitors and/or have not been TUSCLarly educated (IMO one can have gone to SCs for a good while yet not be aware of the many dynamics that are discussed and brought to light here in TUSCL PL University).
Dancers on the other hand are in the strip-club multiple times per week often week in and week out and IMO most def get to hone their skills (taking $$$ from PLs) - so often times in the confines of a SC many a PL is overmatched by a dancer's game that she's been working-on and getting better at for some time thus IMO leading to often times a PL not getting fair-value for his investment.
Thus there are two sides to the coin (blame on both sides), IMO.
In life many will say there are two things one can do when faced with a problem - do something about it - or don't worry about-it if there's nothing you can do.
Perhaps the same can apply to dealing with dancers:
a) analyze the situation and decide whether you are getting *fair* valuie of your investment - if you honeslty don't think you are then remedy the situation by coming to a concensus/agreement with the dancer or seek greener pastures
b) accept her for what she is/does and take the good w/ the bad if it's worth-it for you
My 2-cents - not to be taken as gospel.