is my stripper being civilian OTC or P4P OTC?

Why don't you just go, see if you have fun, and figure the rest out later?

I had this happen once. I went on a date with free girl not knowing if it was P4P of not. It was awkward. I went into it thinking it's probably a paid date or a scam and I learn later that she just wants to fuck me.

Here's what I recommend based on that experience, Just go on the date and let her lead regarding the nature of the relationship. You should pay for drinks or lunch but otherwise don't bring up money. Have a plan/place for sex in mind, and suggest it at the appropriate time towards the end of the meal in a very non-creepy way.

After sex, if you have any, she will bring up money if that's what she wants. Or maybe it'll come up in a text later that night with her wanting help with a car repair. Whatever it is, she'll make it clear if she expects compensation and if so how much. I'd bring a few hundred dollars and be prepared to pay a reasonably price if that's what she wants. But don't be coerced into paying too much.

And like it was in my case, money might not come up. In fact, my girl was furious that I was planning to pay her. She really just wanted to have a date and get fucked.

This is contrary to my usual advice. Usually I think you need a clear understanding beforehand of services to be provided and price owed to avoid misunderstandings and rip offs. But I think ambiguity is ok in this instance cause she might just want to fuck. Insisting on a price beforehand might end an opportunity to fuck for free.

Obviously you need to be alert to scams or set ups, but I think exchanging ids would make you look like a paranoid nut. Just go eat lunch at a restaurant then, if possible, go back to a hotel or your place for fun. I would probably decline going back to her place until you get to know her, and I would decline any suggestion to go park in an isolated place of her choosing. But unless you get scam or rip off vibes from her, I'd just go with the flow and have fun.

Ten points for ChatTguy. Nuff said.

What kind of relationship do you want out of this??? Cuz, the BF option is a bad idea IMO. It already sounds like she has lots of baggage.

I think it's one of those very rare instances where the stripper isn't after you for the money. To answer the thread title, I think it's civilian OTC.

The reason I believe that is because she did things strippers typically don't do--like the constant making out and inviting you to hang out with her after a very short period of time.

So I'd just go with her and see how it works out. Don't do the request for her ID thing though--that's being too paranoid

@S88: You didn't mention the age difference.

Holy shit s88, you're a stud! She wants to fuck your rigid member, so don't waste time around here wondering what to do. Play it cool, have fun, and don't have anyw expectations. Your expectations will ruin the experience. Get on and go for the ride, and never be disappointed if you don't get the wild sex, because if she's not in the mood at first and u play it cool, she will be in the mood another time. Fuck her in the mouth!

I wouldn't ask for ID. You'll be at a highly public place so go for it. You won't know what's really up until you've guys have met.

"Would it be a deal breaker/creep, or normal to demand her to give her govt ID to me, and I'll give my govt ID to her, so we both know who we really are?"

Yes, this would be creepy and weird. Seems like you guys have hung out for a while and talked ITC so you should have an initial feel of her personality. Doesn't mean she might be crazy on an OTC date, but that could apply to you too. If you like her and/or are interested in sleeping with her then go for it and see where it goes. If you are just looking to score, and she is looking for something more like potentially a relationship, then you do have the potential to hurt her; up to you if that means anything to you or not. JS69 seems to give some pretty good advice above.

If you really like this girl, and want to see where it goes, I'd go for it. It's probably a civi offer for a date to get to know you better outside of the club. Strippers want relationships too and it's hard for them to meet Mr. Right when they are dancing. It might be a great opportunity. I'd suggest, however, asking her to meet you, rather than picking her up. You appear non threatening that way, as does she. Good luck and have fun. Let us know how it turns out.

@RandomMember 4 months older than me

@mjx01 "What kind of relationship do you want out of this??? Cuz, the BF option is a bad idea IMO. It already sounds like she has lots of baggage."

Relationship, FWB or "open relationship", she isnt GF/wife material for a number of reasons I wont say publicly, but I need practice with women. Her baby daddys are heroin junkies. I asked her what her plans are when she is too old to strip, she said open a pot shop in CO. I enjoy weed and wont touch anything else but that isn't anyone else, especially a stripper's business to know. I'll find out if she is "wild but safe" or "gonna get shot/locked up/self destructive wild" on the date.

-->"She wants to meet during daytime for lunch, no prices ever mentioned, she actually wants to goto "the tourist attraction" in my city with me she suggested, I've been to it many times, so mugging risk there is zero. So I should treat this as a civilian date since she is acting like a civilian girl, not a escort?"

I've done this kind of thing many times, and I echo John's advice... Just go with the flow, shoot for sex at the end, and bring cash JUST IN CASE she asks for money at some point. I'm not sure what you mean by "treat this as a civilian date", you're going to treat her the same way whether you're paying or not, aren't you? My one hard and fast rule in these situations is: I only pay if we have sex. If we went out for lunch, then out for the tourist attraction, and we DIDN'T have sex, and THEN she asked for money, I'd apologize that we got our wires crossed, but I wouldn't be paying, or maybe I'd pay a cursory amount to cover her transportation and parking. If and only if we have sex, we can have a conversation about real money.

-->"Would it be a deal breaker/creep, or normal to demand her to give her govt ID to me, and I'll give my govt ID to her, so we both know who we really are? In a SC, you are protected from crazy strippers by the staff, OTC, its you and your folding blade knife."

Totally creepy. What in the world are you so frightened of? I actually don't think there's anything wrong with doing a quick background on anyone you're going out with, but no, I don't think asking for her ID is reasonable or un-creepy. You've read here about guys making poor decisions OTC that could have put them at risk, so learn from that, and don't make any poor decisions, at least until you know her better

BTW, based on your information, I still don't have ANY IDEA what her game is here. It could be FWB, but it could just as well be paid OTC or even a longer-term romance con. Absolutely no idea. In your shoes, I'd go with the flow, I'd embrace the ambiguity and not rush to judgement on what she "really" wants.

After the OP's follow-up above, I would stay away.

The OP self proclaims not having much experience with women, which probably led to the rather bizarre question of if ID's should be swappep. And the additional details of the girl and those in her life put off a number of red flags.

That's just me.

maho: I don't disagree, if he's for real, his head is in a weird place. In my initial response, I'd made some comments to that effect, that I edited out as inflammatory, but in the end, I'm not at all sure this is a healthy path for him to follow. That said, we're not going to talk him out of it either, so might as well try to give him the best advice we can.

Fair points Subraman. If he wants to give it a shot then think you and JS69 gave some good pieces of advice.

Good luck to you man!

I think this can only end bad. This is a person living in a hostel who lived in this state for a few days and begins making out with S88 in the VIP room minutes after meeting him. True love for sure. Sounds like she is desperate and S88 was candidate #1.
I think John Smith's advice was good for a dancer with a slightly more stable background (that may be a contradiction of terms). However, there are so many bad signals here, 2 kids with mom somewhere else, that the sex can not be worth the risk.

Don't overthink it, she clearly likes you to some degree. Take her to lunch and show her around, just treat her like a normal person, have fun and see where it goes from there. I think you're savvy enough to not let it end badly, but don't be so overly suspicious or whatever that you miss out on what could be a lot of fun.

I keep going back to what some very wise and experienced PL once posted on TUSCL.

Paraphrasing - Everything a dancer does is a hustle for money. If it doesn't seem like a hustle, it is just a type of hustle you haven't seen yet.

I should add that what you described doesn't come off as any kind of P4P sell to me, so I wouldn't treat it as such. She could be anything from a train wreck to super cool, you might as well find out for yourself.

It sounds like you hit the lottery! The dancers have to date someone. Today that someone is you!

Enjoy! :-)

I think you should get high with her too. I'm not saying you should advertise your habits to people, but if it's something you both do anyway, why not.

I wouldn't rule out civvy interest on her part. That said, two heroin addicted baby daddies. Addicts tend not to hang with non Addicts too long.

You can ask her real name, but asking for ID is rude.

You're not gonna get mugged or stabbed. But getting involved with this girl may be a bad idea.

For those who state the negative of OTC P4P or just plain meeting/doing something outside the club, is it because you've never had positive experiences? I've come across several reads of ongoing OTC and so forth. No bad, meaning life safety, occurrences unless it's something that made the news in which shadowcat posts. Is it just how you go about your first OTC encounter with the dancer being precautios?

^I'd say start your own thread and you'll probably get some responses. I want to hear more about s88's civvi date with the dancer.

I've had this happen before and this is my experience and what i'd predict will happen with you:

It is a civilian date. Just go, have fun, pay her way as you would on a date. Have a location in mind for after date fun. (I wouldnt have a hotel already booked unless you are traveling already, just have it in your mind)

Afterwards, she will humbly and awkwardly ask for just a little bit of cash because she's having a hard time. It might be $50. It might be $500. Who can say with these women, but unfortunately, they all see us as little more than ATMs. My response is always, "um...gosh..I really like you and I understand your dilemma but I dont really do the whole buying a date thing" If I dont give a shit about repeating, I leave it at that and send her on her way. If it's worth the $ she needs and I want to repeat, then I cough it up.

i've got a regular that kind of started that way. Now I see her every couple weeks for a flat 100. Sometimes we go out to eat or hang out, sometimes we just go to the hotel. We always have sex. She always gets 100.

My ATF is the other end. We hang out a lot. Sometimes we have sex, more often we don't. (BOO!) Sometimes she asks for cash, more often she doesn't (YAY!) It's basically, she doesn't see herself as an escort but just genuinely cant seem to be capable of funding her own life without help. Its confusing and stressful, but the sex is more than worth it!! haha!

I got an answer. She said OTC we are "just friends", if I want more schedule a date ITC with her.

This is interesting. We hanged out for 5 hours. She paid 2/3rd of the restaurant bill and for a taxi ride. No hitups for $ of any kind. I met her infront of the SC at closing time on a weekday. On the trip to restaurant, she talked about a horrible customer tonight, I talked about a horrible unnamed dancer, we both laughed over it. She pointed out at the restaurant to me, the restaurant staff must think we are worst customers ever, talking about extras, skanky dancers, VIP rooms, SC managers, SS ideas, baby daddys, gang murders, broken families, rape, incest, weed, heroin, oxy, molly, withdrawl, domestic violence, trailer park life, hourly motels, incarceration, military family life, step dads, DSS and DR drama. She suggested ideas for future dates and to hang out again.

I thought I would get conned, some ripoff, something horrible would happen on our date. Nope. Completely normal experience. She has no shame being a stripper, I have no shame being a customer. Her background includes every tragic stereotypical stripper trauma. Everything imaginable. Her life is more fucked up and tragic than mine, but I'm not perfect either. I felt like an equal with her. With all her typical stripper problems in her life and her past, none of it affected our time together. She was bright and awake the whole time. Not high, not drunk, nothing. She seems to be fiercely independent and protective of her kids and other dancers but she wasnt in the past.

"I'll find out if she is "wild but safe" or "gonna get shot/locked up/self destructive wild" on the date."

She used to be self destructive wild in her early years of stripping, but is now wild but safe. Yet another tragic event, seems to have changed her look on her life and slightly straightened her out, but she is still fun.

At the end we took metro to central bus terminal. At the bus gate we hugged long and hard, no kissing, it seemed mutual, I let go, we said 2 sentences, then again hugged long and hard, no kissing, I let go, and she stepped on her bus home and I left the gate area. I regret nothing.

I never told her, but bus she got on is the all stops version of the bus I use to goto another regular SC of mine I mentioned in https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=4… . I've eyed her motel as it wizzed by and wondered if its an hourly, she confirmed it was, I asked if her room has a mirror ceiling, she showed me a selfie in her bed taken with the mirror ceiling. Small world.

Sounds like a long hustle. For reals.

Final update, I think I found my ATF. We are "just friends" or "best friends" on the main floor and OTC, and in VIP she flips like a light switch to the biggest whore with no discussion of tips or $. After VIP, she always sits with me for free till I leave or club closing aslong as no new customers walk in. When new customers walk in, she always goes and greats them, but is usually back in a couple minutes after they decline her. Whether she likes me or not, IDK and IDC, its a SC, but she is perfect at faking a GF experience, and that is all that matters. 2-4 hours of her attention+VIP room for $100-$150 total spent for the night is an amazing deal.

She admits she has a SO but said it in a way that sounded like it was her dealer, not her BF. This is also her 3rd club in my city in 3 weeks. She left/asked not to return to 2 SCs in 1 week before finding my SC. According to her, the first one gave her 2 shifts, then refused to give her a schedule and said "we will call you when we want you to come in". The second one she quit since she refuses to drink alcohol ITC. The waitresses told her how to secretly say "no alcohol" but it was a lie. She was in the CR with a high spender and did the signal for no alcohol but the waitress kept giving her alcohol drinks. My ATF was forced to drink the alcohol drinks, and after the CR time, my ATF was wasted and confronted the waitress about what she was given. The waitress denied there was alcohol in the drinks and said ATF was imagining it. ATF never went back to that club and started at mine instead.

She never brings up what we do in VIP. I dont think I will either. We just communicate through facial expressions and body language and I get what I want. No words are exchanged. The thought has crossed my mind to ask her if she will get fired from this SC if someone reviews the tape in the VIP, but let us not spoil a good thing, so Ill never ask.