Is this really predatory?

I don't consider it predatory. I consider it business. The guy has a need - for pussy and great sex - and he has money. The girl has a need for nice things (designer clothes, shoes, handbags) and she probably doesn't have any money management skills - but she has a hot body and a sweet pink pussy. Put the two together - and you have a business opportunity - and both benefit nicely.

Predators take from others - and offer nothing of value in return. This is a mutually beneficial business relationship.

I've never done OTC, so I'll give my unbiased view, for whatever it's worth.

If a girl does OTC and you reach an agreement with her to do OTC, I see no problem. She's agreed to the terms and made a choice as a consenting adult.

However, if a girl's never done OTC before and you pressure her into doing OTC, when she really doesn't feel comfortable with it, then it seems a little predatory. She's still consenting, but it seems like she might regret it later.

Just my 2 cents.

Willing seller willing buyer and the market sets the price. That being said I also have never tried to rip off any girl I have had an agreement. In matter of fact if she performs the agreed upon services with enthusiasm and vigor she can count on some extra for going above the agreed minimum service level. On the opposite side of the coin I have also walked out when she attempts to change the agreed price for the same level of service. I have no hesitation to leave the dance room or OTC room when that occurs.

Predatory if you help create her financial issues to take advantage of them. I don't see how we as patrons can do that.

Not always easy to tell what's predatory and what's not -- one person's exploitation is another person's mutually-beneficial business deal. I think the gray area where it moves from "mutually beneficial business deal" to "predatory" might be if there's a lot of pressure being applied, perfectly time to coincide with her vulnerability. But if it's a low-pressure thing, "hey, you're out of work, I'll pay you two-fitty for an OTC", I guess I can be persuaded either way, but that feels like mutually beneficial business deal to me.

I don't think so.

Definitely not predatory. I agree with K that it could be construed as predatory if you caused her to have the need to accept your money. The fact that you happen to meet someone that happens to have a desire for cash from you that happens to be attractive to you at a time at which you happen to have the cash to share, the time to spend and the willingness and interest to do so is opportunistic for you both.

If any of those aspects are missing, the deal doesn't get done.

I do not think it is predatory. As long as she is of age (an adult) and consents all is good.

How about turning this around and wondering how often we customers are preyed upon by ROBs? That probably happens as often, just not to very many of us here?

I think it is if you know the girl is a druggie. Part of the game I guess. Dealers trade dope for sex. SC custies give money for the girl to buy drugs for sex.

I think it could be considered predatory if the girl is pressured into the deal. Otherwise, it seems mutually beneficial business deal.

A lot of us like to ignore the very real possibility that these ladies would really prefer not to be sucking and fucking us for money.

Of course it's not. At least not unless every trade between every human throughout all of time is "predatory" as well.

I agree with Mikey.

The way you described it, it's probably not predatory. But the perception of many posters on this board (whether real or not) is that you carefully choose the girl based upon several factors including financial situation, age, and dependence on drugs and/or alcohol. That could be wandering off into the weeds.

No, I don't think so.

jester "A lot of us like to ignore the very real possibility that these ladies would really prefer not to be sucking and fucking us for money." I am sure they don't. I don't wake up and dream of installing software. I would not do that for free. It isn't predatory that my clients try to get me to do it for a lower price. it is business.

I didnt even read it yet but if Ricky did it I am surenit is predatory

It's only predatory if:

you give her less than she needs

she charges you more than she needs or you can afford.

"Those of you who view this as predatory are either utterly ignorant or hypocrites."

Nah, I just don't take advantage of desperate people down on their luck who normally wouldn't do something. If I see a homeless person I'm gonna give them some money and ask for nothing in return.

I agree with Mo Head agreeing with Mikey

K,

I don't think you can compare installing software (or any straight job) to sex acts.

Despite being a liberal socialist, I actually favor the Free Market on this. If 98% of the time she won't fuck you for $300 but would for $600, but financial troubles put her in a position to take $300 for a quick score and $300 is your market price, well, I'd call it "win-win" overall.

I do think certain chunks of this board have White Knight, Captain Save-a-ho leanings at times. Some guys even seem to put certain layers on the money they pay their prostitutes to cover up the fact it's pay for play... paying her car payment, helping her with her mortgage, and she's just so thankful that she has sex with you! Totally different than negotiating a set price for a service. Riiiight.

I think a lot of guys here do chase that magical unicorn who doesn't normally do OTC but likes him enough to take his offer.

Shit

The way you write seems like you are basically a predatory guy, I very rarely agree with you on issues of morality. The way you posed the question is not the way the situations really unfold and you fucking know it. You are by definition an amoral guy and I would question your ethics, to even pose this question. You really believe everybody that doesn't agree with you is " utterly ignorant or hypocrites " you are a petty fuck who has his head so far up his own asshole you wouldn't know daylight from a flashlight.

Joe makes a solid argument

"The way you posed the question is not the way the situations really unfold and you fucking know it."

Ace point twentyfive!

The difference between what rickdugan usually posts and this post is that in this post he sounds like a reasonable guy saying "I like to look on the scratch and dent aisle when shopping because that's where you can find bargains."

But the reality is that he's obsessed with the scratch and dent aisle. Assuming that he presents himself accurately (and I'm skeptical of that), he spends an inordinate amount of time hoping merchandise falls over and gets a scratch so he can save some trivial amount of money.

The difference between a normal rickdugan post and this rickdugan post is that in most he sounds like a guy saying "I sure hope that my elderly aunt hurries up and dies so I can get my inheritance" and in this one he sounds like "isn't it wonderful that I've had a windfall because my aunt thought of me in her will."

One of those things is d-baggy. The other isn't.

Of course, rickdugan isn't going to see this. He's ignoring me after all. Or so he claims whenever he posts about me.

Twenty/Mike/Motor:

Have I turned pity hustles into earning opportunities, ESPECIALLY when I sensed some truth behind the hustle? Hell yes. Have I timed club visits for times when girls' cash needs were likely to be higher? You better believe it. Have I waited for girls who I really wanted, but who were initially reluctant to do OTC, to become more comfortable with me and to hit some moment when their need for cash outweighed their reluctance? You betcha - I have found some of my best low volume, hot as hell girl next door OTC this way.

You view this as predatory while I view this as opportunistic. The hypocrisy in your stance is that you'd happily fuck one of these girls under the same circumstances so long as you aren't confronted by the need and/or don't feel like you acted upon it. So in your world view (and I lump CP in this), it's ok if you stumble upon a girl in need and fuck her for money, but only if you can stick your head in the sand about why she might be doing it.

But let's take it a step further. Would it be better for her to not pay her rent, buy groceries, get her utilities turned back on, buy X-mas presents, etc., because I happen to know what she's going to use the money for? What a twisted view some people have.

But there may be a difference in philosophies at play here. I assume that strippers, like other grown adults, can make adult decisions as to the greater and lesser evils in what they do. I guess you guys don't, which is why you would rather see a girl unable to buy food for her family than become "prey" to some dastardly guy who has the audacity of making an offer that may require her to have sex in order to earn what she needs.

I'm hardly paying attention.

Just seems like Dugan's last two threads were about situations that most of us would find depressing or downright repulsive. But Dugan appears to find the same situations exciting, something to brag about, something to post about.

Whether that's predatory or not is secondary.

Dugan I guarantee you I don't have any intentions of fucking any of your drug addicted desperate whores, the type that you brag about, as a matter of fact I run the other way when those types come near me, I believe in the old adage that says if you roll in the gutter with dogs you are sure to get fleas. Most of the girls I party with don't ask me for money, when we go out of the strip clubs, we actually like one another. I have met many of them by being a good and generous customer and yes I have helped out a friend or two or even three but I have helped them out of an interest in their well being, and when I help a friend I don't demand anything in return, so I know that when I have my little adventures, it is more often than not ,at their home unless we have traveled out of town together. The girls I party with in the strip clubs I often tip well and if I invite them to go someplace other than a strip club I treat them just like I would any other woman that I am dating. I would be willing to bet that you couldn't even get a dog to play with you without some treats, you seem to have mistaken money for personality, too bad for you.

PS Random you are absolutely right the predatory part is secondary.

I am neither bragging nor a predatory person. I am simply discussing a reality of clubbing that those of us who do things with these girls are confronted with. I guess that some dudes (though I am wondering about that moniker now) get more emotional about it than others.

Twenty, you seem to need to work the arrangements in other ways in order to be ok with it, such as paying the girls a lot ITC and "helping out." Whatever you need to make yourself feel better dude, but don't delude yourself about what it is. And my OTC targets are among the hottest girls in their respective clubs. I don't post about much of what I do here as it is ordinary - I post about the weird or exceptions to the rules. The sad reality is that, try as one might, drugs and other issues are so prevalent in the clubs now that these issues cannot always be avoided - yet another thing that is not such a bad topic on a site for club hounds.

This is the last comment I am going to make on this thread, Nobody seems more emotional about it than you, why are you trying to defend the indefensible, I feel just fine about my life and the people that are part of it. you are the one that seems to be all hot and bothered so much so, that you feel compelled to tell complete strangers on the internet, why the whole wide world is wrong, but you are right, not bragging Ha not much, that's stupid. I personally don't give a fuck what you do or how you do it, but carrying on like the Jehovah's witness that just rung my doorbell is idiotic. I don't need to do anything to be ok with my arrangements with women I seem to do just fine with the ones I like. I think the girls I date are beautiful and sexy but I have no desire to date females 25 or 30 younger than I don't find them attractive once they open their mouths, I like grown women I don't want to date children, but you aren't alone with that, and if that was all that there was going on most here would be leaving you alone I just avoid your, so called "hottest girls in their respective clubs", especially the ones that display signs of substance abuse and instability although how you can call a drug addicted prostitute, hot is beyond me, just shows that beauty is in the beholder. No wonder you are worried about getting pulled over by L.E., between your drinking and driving and traveling with drug addicted girls who aren't reliable and have warrants out for them, tells me you aint getting the cream of the crop, no matter how you spin it, they are just skanky hos buddy, and I wouldn't fuck them with your dick.

It's predatory if you use their weakness to your advantage. Guilt, desperation, drunkenness, it doesn't matter. Now, knowing how to present yourself for a fairer price is not the same thing...

I suppose dancers whose lives are a complete train wreck are lucky there are custies who are not turned off by that. It's a huge depressing turn off for me. It's just sick when you get sadistic frat boy jollies over someone else's troubles, dancer, P4P girl, whoever.

"It is really predatory to try to turn a girl's financial needs to your advantage?"

Looks like my previous post struck a nerve.

If you weren't so painfully lacking in self-awareness, I'd almost believe you asked this question rhetorically. Of course it is.

Here's Merriam Webster's definition of predatory:

b : inclined or intended to injure or exploit others for personal gain or profit

So yes, what you do, BY YOUR OWN WORDS, is the exact definition of predatory.

As twentyfive has eloquently pointed out, we don't give a shit that you do this Rick, just stop pretending you're actually doing these girls a favor by getting them too drunk to think correctly and then fucking them where ever it's convenient. The only hypocrite in this post is you.

CP

Looks like CP touched a nerve with rick if he's starting this thread seeking validation from us. OK, in a strict technical sense, rick is not engaging in predatory behavior in the sense that both parties are consenting to the transaction versus the slowest animal being anything but consensual to having the lion kill and eat him (her). Upon further examination, though, I see that one definition of "predatory" is "characterized by plunder, pillage, or exploitation." Looking further into "exploitation" definition: "The use of manipulation of another person for one's own advantage." OP's opening sentence says it all. OK, everyone here who has ever surfed the internet for the best possible deal is seeking the best advantage for
ourself. Still I don't buy into the idea that knowingly seeking out and utilizing someone elses misfortunes for ones own advantage (versus shopping for best car, hotel, or airfare deals) to be an example of capitalism to parade around.

I posted this thread because I thought that CP's use of this term in another thread was interesting and I was curious about others' views con this topic. I suspected that there would be a wide divergence of opinions and if you look at the responses, they were indeed all over the spectrum. It also never hurts for a monger to be reflective from time to time.

But this issue is clearly an emotional one. I view the squeals in the last few threads to be a lot of emotional and hypocritical crap, for all the reasons previously stated. I believe that if I treat her kindly and pay her a fair market rate that I am not a predator as the benefits from the transaction are mutual. I also believe that she is a grown adult able to make her own decisions and decide what is best for her. Some of you disagree and others agree and I don't see a consensus forming anytime soon.

But as for you twenty, your little emotional meltdown was very telling. What hubris to believe that you speak for the "whole wide world." Other responses in this very thread say differently. But of course you also made your arrogant contempt for most mongers and their dancer favorites perfectly clear. Your even believe that you know better than others which strip club topics are appropriate for this discussion board.

Well twenty, if posting about negotiating OTC with strippers on a strip club discussion board offends your dignity and delicate sensitivities, then just don't read the fucking thread.

^^^Delusional

I don't know about it being predatory. But what is the relationship like between you and the girl? Girls can be most happy to engage in sex, if you treat them right. And then when it is P4P, there are customary fees, and there may be some established fee between you and her.

So going under with the money would be predatory. But also, if you and she are not really copasetic, then that would be excessive.

But say if the girl calls up and reminds you that she needs rent money, then doing a nice session at the established friend price is not predatory.

For myself, doing lots of sessions with AMP girls, this end of month or high financial need issues has never been there. For one thing, those girls tend to be responsible with their money.

So if you are dealing with girls who are not responsible, then you are contributing to their destructive lifestyle.

SJG