OTC Negotiations
Ch3ll
Arizona
So I was at the SC the other night and a dancer I've now took to VIP three times brought up OTC. So I play it cool as I'm not ready to set something up like that night. We get to pricing and I ask what she charges and she's like $600 - $700. In my head I'm like I don't have it like that so fuck that. I then say $350 and she's like nope $400. So I continue to play it cool, no more negotiations and she starts telling me more about herself. As it stands no OTC has been set up with her. I plan to visit her at the club maybe 2 - 3 more times before I try to set something up. So my question is how does one negotiate first time OTC with a girl for a lower price? Do you use getting a room at a nicer hotel as leverage?
49 comments
#2 do the opposite of that faggot Richard.
Sound funny but it's true...the first number they offer is the sucker price. If you say all i have is $200 she will fuck you if that rent be due
My biggest achievement has been to get a $500 hour block of time for $170 just because i went at the end of the month, on a Monday and i acted like it was my last $170...bitch actually said " baby its ok if that's all you got i can work with this" this stripper 30min later finished me off with a very unexpected hand job while deep french kissing(one of my personal favorites way to cum)
No cape, No cap, No cup just Game
I'm not going to try to tell a girl what she's worth. If she thinks it's worth $600, and I manage to talk her down, how likely is she to perform well?
I tend to have seen the stripper a few times first, and at least established an "we've exchanged numbers and arrange appoints to see each other ITC" relationship. Then we talk about the OTC and what we might do (go SCing together, go drinking in some cool neighborhood, then sex), while we're drinking and having fun ITC. Then, when my gut tells me the time is right, I offer her $200, which to the disbelief of several members here, even the super hot ones often take, or I'll let me negotiate me up slightly (I don't think I've ever paid over $250, although with drinks and dinner etc. total outlay can easily be double or triple that). Anyway, no way I'm asking her price first, she says $800 or whatever, then I say $200 -- just too fucking far off; hell, who knows, maybe she'll say no to my $200 just for pride purposes at that point.
----> "Do you use getting a room at a nicer hotel as leverage?"
I don't think the girls give a fuck where the room is, Sure they'd rather have nicer rooms, but I never even discuss it .... in fact, especially in SF where "cheap" rooms, that are still acceptably decent, might be $150-$200, I often just go with the $40/hour hot tubs (found a decently clean hot tub place) unless I think she's going to crash with me overnight (which happens reasonably often, and i do not pay extra for, ever). I negotiate for the sex and only for the sex, and our time spent eating, drinking, SCing, and overnight if she decides to stay, is not something I ever address or pay for. I often negotiate for "just a BJ", which might be part of the reason the girls take relatively less money ... but 90% of the time, once we're drunk and in the room, I'm getting the full monte.
Because you're flexible on schedule you can leverage that. Realistically OTC should be cheaper at 4 pm on a Tuesday vs. Midnight Saturday night.
How much are you dropping each VIP?
I noticed your review is of a Tucson, AZ club; if that is your homebase I don't think one would have to pay top-dollar as in markets such as NYC.
If she's a cocktail waitress then I assume she is not making much $$$ so somewhere b/w $200 and $300 should be a good payday for her IMO; I also assume she's is not an experienced OTCer and just threw out a # to see if you'd bite.
I think Subraman's approach of you setting the price and at best going up from it a bit but not too much if she's really hot and you want her; is a good strategy.
If you really really really gotta have her; then $400 is not really an outrageous price; so if it's a one-time thing and you really want her; then go for it – but if you want it to be a periodic thing; then it seems per the experiences of others that w/e price you start w/ the first time; that is what she'll want and expect going-forward, in many cases.
Play it cool - it sounds like you're not too crazy about meeting OTC with this dancer or you would h e jumped already. That works to your advantage. Meet her again and see if she brings it up. If she doesn't, you don't either until the 2nd or 3rd time down the road when you meet up.
Here's a bargain chip that may backfire but worth a shot. Ask her how much she makes on an average night in the club, after all tips out etc etc. if that number is close to what you want to offer tell her this "you can meet me OTC at this rate, make what you would at the club and you don't even have to go to work. What would you rather do? Spend 90 minutes with me or 8 hours in a club making the same amount of money?"
Tucson is my main SC ground. I don't know of any SCs that allow FS. I have yet to hit them all up at least 3 times each.
Like Papi and Shai said I'm going to shoot at what she makes in the club. I can't imagine those tips for overpriced beer/drinks adding up too high.
From my perspective, you never want to ask a woman to quote you a price for such things. That is talking to her as though she is someone who sells sex for money.
Instead you lead it and come on to her, and invite her to see you outside ( assuming this is what you want ). At some point she will probably ask for money. But best to make it like you are just subsidizing her, or as they say, keeping her, instead of paying for sex. Anyway, you will make the first offer. Sometimes it will be the handing to her of actual cash.
But never ask her to quote a price.
And never offer her money as a way of persuading her to do something. Wait until she has agreed in principle that she will do it first. If she is hesitant, do not introduce the subject of money.
Then you can make some suggestion that she is obviously a very smart girl, brains and beauty both, and that she probably has some wealthy guy who is keeping her. See what she says. Then tell her that she should be spending her time with you, so that you can take care of her.
Sorry, but this world is not fair. This is just how it goes. If you want the best outcomes, you have to turn her into your mistress, instead of your whore.
SJG
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/
John Mayall
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKcmDCPC…
In civi chicks the resurch shows that it takes 8-12 hours of being with you before feeling ready for sex with you.
The same with a hired gun...i once pulled a stripper by seeing her once a week on a Thursday at open for a few hours...i would tip a few bucks on stage and spent time back at the tables for free with her..after 4months i was balls deep in her tight pussy juice
Shaylnn you funny trolling ass bitch lol
Unfortunately, the fact that she held out over another $50 also tells you that $400 was her floor. What has me confused is this: why would you agree to pay for a nicer hotel as an enticement, but not just add $50 to your offer instead? As others have said, I'm guessing she doesn't give a shit about the room so long as it is decent, so your money would be better spent closing the narrow price gap instead.
If $350 is your absolute cap, then if I were you, I would start looking for another potential target. Don't throw good money after bad on a girl that has already taken a firm stand on her number and, thus, is played out for now. You can be using the cash to build rapport with one who is more amendable instead. This one will always remember that you were willing to give her $350 and, if she ever gets desperate or comes down in her pricing expectations, she may re-approach you in the future.
A few other odds and ends I picked up in this thread:
1. The theory that you don't let her make an offer is ridiculous. I always, and I mean always, encourage them to let me know what they would need for me to talk them out of there. For starters, sometimes I am surprised at how low they come in, which is nice when it happens. And if a counter offer is needed, delivery can smooth over any rough edges if the numbers are not too far apart. If she says $350 and my cap is $300, I say something like, "honestly sweetie, that's a little higher than I was looking to go. Could we meet in the middle at $300?" It works almost every time, especially if what I am offering is still a good rate for the area.
2. The theory that you can't counter-offer because you are "telling her what she's worth" is also silly. See #1 above and my discussion about girls who know that they are throwing out a pie in the sky number. As long as your counter is still a good one for that area, then she likely won't get offended unless she was never serious in the first place. I often negotiate and rarely have service issues, though again any counter offer I make remains a good payout for the area (precisely to avoid service issues). This is why I always say: do your research and know your market, especially if you are not from the area.
3. The time of the day as a negotiating tool? Really? I wonder how that is supposed to go in her head: "Sex with me is only worth $150 at 4pm, but my pussy is worth SO much more at midnight!" Alrighty then. ;)
4. Anything that juice said is as goofy as it sounds, except one (and I cannot believe I'm saying this), which is always be willing to walk. Doing it nicely is important too so that her back isn't up over it - I usually use a smile and shrug and express sympathy that we couldn't get closer. When girls sense that you are serious, they will often get more realistic. I've even had girls make high offers, leave when I didn't agree, and come back later with a much better offer once they realized that I wasn't going to reconsider and they had no better options on the table.
Anyway, just my two cents fwiw.
SJG
This idea is based on the premise that it is like buy a used car.
My own experience is that it is never good to think this way. The money is just a show of respect, as the girl's going to be doing something she's perfectly happy to do anyway. You just want to make her feel comfortable. So you have to approach it completely differently.
SJG
Thank you for the complement and acknowledge ment rick
I usually just txt a generous, and specific (time, place, money), offer for OTC and let them take it or leave it. I don't really like discussing such terms ITC unless I have to. If it is a decent offer and they are serious usually they get back to me.
That way it can be on your own turf, rolling turf, and you can cut the strip club out of the money and maybe go a bit longer with the girl.
But also, you can pick the one you want, exactly as she is dressed and painted up right then and there. See, Want, Get, the ultimate power trip!
Like it?
Only thing is, I'm not sure how many strip clubs would allow this. But I am sure that the women would love it.
SJG
Front Wheel Drive, light weight, diesel
http://www.roadtrek.com/models/zion-srt/
1) Approach this from an abundance mindset. Strippers are an unlimited resource and the turnover is high. If you can't find an agreeable price with a dancer, then move on to the next one. I've found that politely and respectfully walking away was key to shaving down the price more than anything else.
2) This is related to point 1. In real estate, there's a rule that you should never fall in love with a house or property. If you do, then it's easy to turn a blind eye to serious and costly problems/issues. Strippers (whether negotiating OTC or ITC) are the same. Don't fall in love/lust with a single dancer, and don't give your dick access to your wallet (well, as much as possible).
3) I'm a research guy. It's easy to find out the going rate for escorts in the area at a range of hotness levels. If I'm forced to offer a dollar amount first, then I'll start negotiating at somewhere between $50 to $100 below market rate. If she's stuck at a price far above market rate, I walk (and that often triggers her dropping her price precipitously).
4) Consider negotiating for volume. I once had a fantastic arrangement with a smoking hot young thing. As an escort, she could probably command $500/hour in my market. I offered her $200/hour but guaranteed that I'd see her twice per month. What tipped her in favor of the deal was that I was dependable, safe, and uncomplicated (and she knew it by then). She *could* make more money, but it would involve a lot more hassle, hustle, and risk on her part. Sadly, she moved away.
5) Related to point 4, find that balance between being a simpering PL and chest-thumping prick. Other guys may have SC personas or "systems" that work better for them, but I've found that girls are more willing to open negotiations (and sometimes agree to lower prices) once I convince them that I'm neither a lunatic nor a sucker.
Perfectly open to others picking apart what I've said here.
When in a P4P venue, like an AMP, I do pay them of course. But that is just a show of respect. The girl will have been ready to do what I wanted for free.
Abundance, Yes! But understand that sex is by its nature abundant and free. Money only comes into play circumstantially.
SJG
QUESTION: "Hey buddy, how do I get to Carnegie Hall?"
ANSWER: "Practice."
Regards,
Ishmael
SJG
Nope, that tells you she was "negotiating", and nothing more -- just trying to squeeze out a little more, probably usually a good bet on her part, many guys might think that's close enough to give in or offer to split the difference, who walks over 14%? Or 7% if they split it. Since Ch3ll didn't negotiate any more from there (at least that I could tell), we have no idea if it was really her floor, or just a smart move to get a few more $. Along the way, she effortlessly got his very first offer to be super high, by quoting an outrageously high price -- which should highlight the absurdity of the statement, "The theory that you don't let her make an offer is ridiculous", when that's how she manipulated the negotiation in this very example.
Obviously, you negotiate with whatever strategy makes you comfortable. If you're the kind of guy who can hear her offer of $700 and then counter $200 and let her talk you up to $300, and have both of you feel like it was a win-win so she's not all irritated, that's great. I don't like it, so my advice is to do the reverse -- start with your $200 offer, let her talk you up as high as you feel comfortable. It may not be the only way, but the only ridiculous notion is that it's not a solid way to go, or that OP could possibly have been in any worse situation than starting the negotiation with her $700 quote..
Agree that there's nothing wrong with counter-offers, and in many cases they're simply expected. Like negotiating anything else, not coming off as an asshole helps; and given how personal sexual services are, a "you're not worth it vibe" doesn't serve anyone well. I try to have a warm "you'd be worth every dime if I could afford it, but it's beyond my budget" vibe.
And to your other point, in all of the times that I've negotiated OTC, I can count on one hand the number of girls who have tried a pie in the sky routine like that one did. And I believe that I outlined my strategy for dealing with girls who do that (copy and paste):
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"I usually let them know that, as much as I want to, the number is just too far above the norm around here for this sort of thing. Casual kindness and an aw shucks delivery helps, but if she is that far off base then she already knows it and is prepared to hear it. Then I shut my mouth and see if they counter, which they ALWAYS do if they are serious about offering OTC."
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Most who are serious about offering OTC don't try something like that. Now many will try a slightly upper range number, but it is easy to come to an agreement if they are not too far off, which I also talked about above.
In my humble opinion, the key is to know your market. You can research BP, Eros, usasexguide. cityvibe, the reviews on this site and other places to get a feel for what is an acceptable price range. Insecurity, driven by a combination of uncertainty and fear of causing offense, is, in my humble opinion, what leads guys to struggle with negotiating OTC. If you are secure in your belief about what is a reasonable payment, then it is simply a matter of whether she is being reasonable and, if not, then so be it.
Absolutely agree that it's key to know your market, and definitely agree that " Insecurity, driven by a combination of uncertainty and fear of causing offense, is, in my humble opinion, what leads guys to struggle with negotiating OTC". But as a tactic, that doesn't change my advice to Ch3ll, who is evidently a novice and exactly the kind of person who'll crack under the pressure: name your price first, negotiate from there, don't get stuck in a position where you're feeling unbalanced about negotiating against a $700 quote.
But if you actually believe your contention, then your argument that it was a win-win for her makes no sense since she left the $350 on the table that you are contending she might have otherwise accepted if he rushed to an offer first.
Dude, I can assure you that if she was willing to fuck for $350 then Ch would have been fucking her for $350. Who made the offer first makes no real difference when it is all said and done.
In any case,
Im just a extremely tight ass so i lean more with Subraman.
This is an example from my life. Side noteim going to be sharing a successful story not all of my negotiating ends in a yes...mainly because im willing to walk away
Dancer offers $1,000
I counter with $200
Dancer counters: takes a pause then says $500
I counter with Avery long pause...i thumb my wallet, pause...tell her give me a sec im calling the bank...call or pretend to call then say " damn baby really wish i could but all i really can afford is the $200"
Dancer says after a long pause herself " yes thats kool baby i can work with that"
Side notes
In my area sex can be had easily for $100-$200 from a escort, massage girl or at a dive bar. Most strippers in my area normally true the $1,000 sticker sucker price. A lot of them are just trying to get $400-$600 which is their true starting point not the bottom...the true bottom is $200 if rent is due unless of course she has drug issues then $100 can be achieved
Example from a real life story from my experience
Was at a club one Tuesday night about middle of the month at a club that their prices were set in stone $25 per dance
After low balling all not on girls i was into..i never bottom feed...if i don't find what i like i save my cash and exit. Near the end of the night one of the girls that told me no came back and said " you still got that $10 per song for 5 songs ?" I said" yes but how is this possible" she said " i will still be making a $20 profit from that $50"
As you can see she new the money was their and she understood her profit margins...it makes since that from open to middle shift the sales price would stay at full price to maximize profits.
Middle shift to the end of shift she was able to see the money she had made and for what ever reasons (bills, drugs, kids, just loves money, to just making tip out) she knew she could now snag the other lower offers because she understood a profit is still a profit
She was willing to walk away from any low ball offers yea even $700 offers because she understood what every great salesman/ hustler knows their is a sucker born daily
She knew some fool would pay the full $1,000 sticker sucker price and she made a good livin doing just that....i learned a lot from this bitch
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Yup. A lot of the guys on here are from places like Kentucky, Georgia, the Carolinas and Florida. Until a few years ago, I was in a position similar to your own (NY metro) and I'd have been lucky to get a pat on the ass for $120, yet I was reading here about guys getting laid for the cost of the dance plus a small tip and OTC for $150 or less. I'm now living in one of those cheap states (it's pretty fucking cool dude), but I still travel to a number of areas where I would be lucky to get decent OTC action for $300.
Flyover country for the win. :)
Read all posts.
Subraman has the best system hands down.
Dude's getting a dancer to go out - dine, wine and sleep with him.
$200. In San Fran.
I have to assume these dancers are 7+ on the national scale.
The only way he's pulling it off is he is managing to have the dancer not view it as prostitution - but a fun date out (& gee I also get paid). But for this to happen - guy has to have certain amount of attractiveness and talking skills.
Subraman - do you lead the dancer into believing something long-term is brewing? or do you simply enjoy the moment?
Any other system that gets you OTC at or around market rate is simply a "system" created for personal gratification. In such cases just follow jestrite, GMD and other straight shooters.
Didn't work out, so I just moved along. I'll tell you though, she make a lot on her Fridays and Saturdays. I saw her home and she drove a Lexus and then trading that for a SLK. That said, I figured there could also be money in her family.
Now I might have tried harder (no pun intended), but after a summer hiatus, she came back with a updated enhancement that became a deal breaker anyway.
I had that work out perfectly a few years ago, just the perfect storm of conditions: 1. She lived over an hour from the club, 2. She had a bit of a sleep disorder, had trouble falling asleep, and trouble waking up before 11am, 3. The club she worked out had stair-step penalties for being late to dayshift, $50 for not being ready at 11:30, $100 for not being ready by noon, etc, so by the time she up and in and ready, she was often already $150-$200 in the hole.
Anyway, I'd get a hotel room around the corner from her strip club, the night before she had to work (or the night between two workdays in a row). We'd party that night, go back to the room for sex, I'd kick her awake at 10:30am, she'd shower and take the 2-block walk-of-shame to her work, and be ready on time (which means she saved $200 in fines right off the bat). She loved it, I loved it (and the price)
I can't tell if you're subtly teasing me because you don't believe me, or honestly asking ..
But taking the question at face value ... I don't "lead her into believing" that something long-term is possible -- she already knows something long term IS possible, and it's part of what we're doing. Before I ask a girl OTC, she's already my CF or ATF, I already dig her, we've already partied in the club 3-6 times (at 4-5 hours per trip), so by this point if I like her enough to invite her OTC and she is a fun time OTC, I'm happy to dive into an ATF/regular relationship for quite a while. She's going to have a very solid regular, and she already knows it, since I'm already a regular at the clubs I pull OTC girls out of, and they know exactly how I do things.
I realize not everyone believes the girls factor potential longer-term income into their immediate OTC decisions, but to me it's the most occam's razor explanation. I also believe the girls often display behaviors that indicate that they DON'T hate every second of being OTC and all they want to do is get away as fast as they can (some obviously want to minimize the time they're there, but others don't). But that's a whole 'nother can of worms.
There are many dancers that put on a fantastic and uninhibited personality ITC - and retrace back to a civvy personality as they are leaving the club. The line between partying/flirting/boob-sucking and fucking is distinct for many dancers and their antenna can sense any shifts in expectations.
I personally think it is fantastic you are able to repeatedly score OTCs with 7s all as part of extended ITC fun - and at "stipend" prices you mention.
I believe you - because I have experienced it too - but occasionally. And cherish such memories. In several cases, the dancer was expecting a long-term relationship (i.e., BF, sugar Daddy) and my expectation was a long-term relationship as a club customer.
I hear you about opening a can of worms about dancer attitudes!