The Highest Lap Dance Price

The hottest girl at this club quoted me $500 for a covered bj, $1 K for covered full service, and mere $2K to spend the night in my hotel room. I might have been able to talk her down same little but she didn't really seem like she was in a negotiating mood.

I think some guys are paying these prices. I saw lots of guys going back to various dance rooms throughout the evening.

Maybe this is what drove SJG to AMPs.

MBOT is actually a bordello masquerading as a strip club. The high prices are necessary to buy off the local pols.

Hey, glad you made it! How was the lineup?

Anyway, OFarrell is by far the highest price club in SF. They changed to the insane pricing after losing a stripper lawsuit back around 2007ish... at the time, that was my main club, and I wasn't about to pay those prices, but it offered such a unique proposition that I didn't know where to go next, and actually mostly stopped SCing for 2 years until I discovered I love drinking with the girls.

I had complete forgotten they quote those kinds of prices! I haven't been quoted prices like that in years. At least during dayshift, BJs can be had for $250-$350 and FS for $300-$500, which is still crazy expensive, but not quite as insane as what you were hearing. There is a crazy hot Ofarrell Theater girl (not sure if she worked last night) who I saw off campus for $250, but who regularly quotes and gets $1000 for OTC. There is definitely room for bargaining, but it may be that regulars get cut more slack

I forgot this. They charge double for a couple. That's right if I got a nude lap dance with the DS the price would be $120. She quoted me this price without the slightest acknowledgement of how insane that is.

I don't think there is anything a woman can possible do for me that would be worth $120 for 2.5 minutes.

Subra, the lineup was poor. The hottest girl was borderline DS quality. There was also an 8. The rest were a 2-6.

Did you walk out with a full waller and teach them a lesson?

There are some clubs in my area where dancers are trying to get $50-60 per dance for just a lapdance and nothing more. I refuse to pay that also. The most I have paid is $40

I kid you not there's a club in Richmond, VA that charges $60 for one song and it's just a topless dance.

Here's the best part--pasties are required by law in this area

I did hear a story from a dancer once where supposedly a coctail waitress turned down $100.00 for one dance

Man I'm lucky to live in a city where full nude dances are no more than $10 apiece

Never paid over $25 and won't. Of course if tips are included, the price was higher.

@Vikings: I assume that you're talking one of the Paper Moon clubs. You know the crazy thing? The club's share of that $60 is $40! That's right, 2/3. Got this from a former PM dancer now at 1320 just down the road where dances are $20. She makes out much better at 1320 given how many more dances she sells.

@ATACdawg

I was referring to Richard's Rendezvous.

However, the Paper Moon clubs in Richmond use to do the same thing. At one point, they charged $60 for one song. Now it's $50 for one song.

The thing is...most people just wait until they call a 2 for 1, and THEN they get their dances. That way you're getting 2 songs for $50. It's still too expensive though because 2 for 1's are always shortened songs at the Paper Moon.

Virginia is an AWFUL place to live if you're a strip club fan.

Well – SF is one of the most/top expensive cities in the U.S. – plus I assume there is a lotta $$$ in that area (isn’t Silicon Valley fairly close by?). I assume they can get away w/ the “Crazy Larry” prices due to lack of competition since it seems SCs are kinda heavily regulated in that area.

I don’t have an itch for upscale clubs although I don’t mind visiting them; thus I have not gotten exposed to insane prices – the most costly LDs that I have personally experienced are the ones down here in Miami which are $25.

I've never paid more than $20/dance and right now I refuse to pay higher. I have had dancers at the PP clubs in Columbia quote me $30-40/dance and I just refuse them. I told one that I can get them for $10 back in Atlanta. She replied "That's crazy". I didn't argue the point with her.

The highest I've seen is Bare Elegance in LA. In the daytime the prices are a little less, but I believe at night nude dances are $51 a song.

"Maybe this is what drove SJG to AMPs"

Actually this is not true, not exactly. When I started patronizing AMPs it was before SC's became know for having mileage. What I mean is, there have always been dancers who would do OTC. But there were not open and above ground strip clubs where FS-ITC happened with any frequency. In the early days of lap dancing at MBOT, there were no booths or back rooms. Lap dancing meant lap sitting. Sometimes this meant digital penetration, but Jim and Artie would fire any girl observed to be engaging in FS.

So, having read in an issue of Hustler Magazine that of the three choices, Escorts, AMPs, or SW's, they felt that AMPs were the best trade off for quality versus price, I started to explore. It also helped that one real nice Viet shop was right next to the Sunnyvale Hip Hugger.

I mean if you think about it this only makes sense. First, you can window shop. So you don't session until you have found a girl you like. Second, it is just you and the girl in the room, so how good it gets depends only on you and she. And the facilities are adequate and clean. So the quality can be very high, even though the minimum looks standard is less than it is for SC's. You just have to find a girl you like.

When I did my first sessions it was just massage and I gave no tip, just the 60min $60 house fee. Then a lovely Vietnamese fashion plate, someone I am sure is now happily married to an American, administered an HJ, without asking for more money.

Not being particularly interested in that, I realized right away that being alone in the room with the girl, anything can happen. I also knew from that Hustler article the most important issue, treat her just like you would any other woman. Make sincere compliments on her looks, be nice to her, and don't ever act like money buys her.

So I learned right away that the best way is just to move on them, treating them like civilians. The MILFs are more likely to go for DFKing, but the younger ones should not be ruled out either. Soon I was DFKing and banging pretty AMP girls in three counties and spending myself into credit card debt. This was long before the term, "GFE" was invented.

If I move on them, then all they have to do is just yield. Probably they will ask for money the first time, but as I have started it myself, they don't have to worry that I am a cop. And then in the entire interaction never have I in any way treated her like she is a prostitute. Any talk about money is coming from her, not me. I never have to say what I intend to do with her, first of all because it is obvious. Second, because she does not want to have it all laid out. She wants to have fun too.

So I did lots of this, and then I decided that I was addicted, and the girls told me that I was, and I wanted to try and make my failing marriage work, and so I decided to stop.

Then word started to spread that Market St. Cinema and New Century were building these new totally enclosed private rooms, and that with Willy Brown and Terrance Hallinan in charge, anything goes.

To Be Continued

SJG

When I was at MBOT I paid $10 for nude dances with several girls in the movie room. As I recall, $60 got you 20 minutes in one of the private cabanas, which were new at the time. However, it's possible that prices have changed since 1996.

There's a place here with no VIP but a 20-40-60 dance price structure, where supposedly the more expensive are naughtier.

From the reviews there isn't much difference.

My understanding is MBOT is more of an expensive extras club for tourists than anything else.

So I heard what was going on at Market St. Cinema and New Century, and it sounded interesting, but I was skeptical that the quality of delivery and the value for the money could ever equal AMPs, especially the extremely good SF AMPs which have girls more likely to go for DFKing because they are more out in the open about what they do there.

So how much time do you get in the booth? And is it going to be an 'extras' approach to FS, or is it going to be GFE? Of course the way to find out is to see how physically friendly she will get in the front room. Will she makeout with you in the front room, before you have committed to the private session?

So the more I heard about New Century and Market St. Cinema, and about the claim that they were owned by the Mafia and that they treated dancers badly, the more skeptical I became.

MBOT and Crazy Horse were never known for FS.

Chez Paree might have been, don't know.

Then of course I saw and read about how Deja Vu ran the clubs on Broadway, and then I saw how they bought New Century.

So I have always been skeptical of it. I don't really want 'extras' FS, just like I don't want to pay money for HJ / BJ either. It is not the sort of interaction I want to have with a girl.

So as I have explained before, I have found the better way to go is to try and court the girl some verbally and do a preliminary dance, and then talk her into letting me DATY her.

It works well. It softens the girl right up.

But basically I consider these places clip joints, selling more an expensive fantasy instead of delivery.

Shadowcat wrote, "MBOT is actually a bordello masquerading as a strip club. The high prices are necessary to buy off the local pols."

I think this is highly unlikely. SF has never been a Mafia run town. I don't think cops are on the take. Certainly when Jim and Artie ran MBOT it was not like this. They had sued the Mafia over the showing of bootleg copies of their films. And as far as the cops, they mocked the cops and Mayor Diane Feinstein. They were arrested and booked over 100 times, and they were tried in front of a jury.

I'm not sure who runs MBOT now, it might be one of their daughters.

I don't think the high prices are because of losing contractor status law suits with strippers either.

The issue is that since Terrance Hallinan, the regulatory environment is harsher. Market St. Cinema and Pink Diamonds are closed. Gavin Newsome was point man on a day of AMP raids.

So rather than saying, "You can do X1 and X2, but not X3", they just leave it all as an open ended expensive fantasy. After all, X1 and X2 are also illegal when done for money. They want guys thinking that there is no limit, it is just too expensive.

It works too. Guys come from out of state, because of the world famous name and the land mark real estate, and they spend money. They come into SF International each and every day. And the pretty girls are able to separate these guys from their money.

So if you are trying to buy the girl, then you better not be a cop. So she can quote you $1k, $2k, or $100k, and she has not broken any law, as she is just responding to the creep initiating the conversation.

If you really want to spend that money, maybe she will deliver, but maybe not. If she does, it will be in the most extras of extras style.

Either way the average mileage is not that high, and the risk to the club is extremely low.

This is why I say, these places are clip joints. The only reason to patronize them is if you want to form an outside relationship with a dancer, and so then spending money in the club is just a way to flatter her.

Maybe it was better at Pink Diamonds, the SF version of a dive. I don't know. Never knew about the place until after it was closed.

People say Club Fantasy in Sacramento is good. This is the closest potentially FS oriented club that I have heard of, but I don't really know.

People talk about SF clubs, "high mileage", "extras". But such discussions are useless. They are only places to go if you want to be a sucker.

If you want a good experience, go to a place where you can get a dancer to makeout with you in the front room, before retreating to private space with her.

SJG

PS

I was just reading some of this:

Erotic City amazon.com

Much of this is about the gay culture. But it also talks about SC's and AMP's.

What I did not know was this. As Terrance Hallinan spread the word that he was not going to make SC busts, he was also going to new extremes in making SW busts. So the number of typical SW's dropped from 200 at a time to less than 20. He had these pretrial diversion programs. He was more extreme than any in busting customers.

The argument was that SW work is dangerous, where as SC and AMP work is not. So SC's went to FS, and the number of AMP's radically expanded. I did not know this.

But I have seen the difference in the SW scene. That far back, the 80's, it was really cool, like an outdoor fashion show.

Today, piss.

So we have talked about liberal versus conservative politics. Conservatives want to save the society from the evil women. Liberals want to protect the women from abusers.

So Hallinan was not actually pro-decriminalization, he just wanted it moved indoors. His successors have been much more aggressive in making indoor busts too.

So you have these clip joints where nothing is totally prohibited, but it just doesn't happen very often. If you come in from out of town with a huge wad of cash, and if you really insist, then probably they will take care of you. But most of the time the price scares people away, as it is intended to.

But if there were a dive club you could go there, or you can go to an AMP, and get very well taken care of. It's just you must treat the girl as a civilian, not as someone who can be bought with money.

SJG

Madonna youtube.com

Further reflection:

Never would I be having the kind of conversation with a woman that JS69 claims to have had, asking for prices while just kicking tires! To even go into that territory with her is extremely disrespectful. The only way it could happen was if it started with her, effectively an open verbal solicitation, or if she and I were getting extremely physically friendly and she started asking for money or quoting me prices.

Unless it is going to happen, it is absolutely no one's business asking her what she does for money.

SJG

I never ask a girl for menu pricing. I am not about just going out for sex. If I find a girl I like we must first go to lunch or dinner and we talk then what we will do after that. Maybe it's a movie made its shopping and maybe then it's back to my hotel. I want a total GFE experience. You wouldn't ask your girlfriend how much she charges would you ? You don't treat her like a prostitute ! Money changes hands in all my GFE encounters but price is the last thing we ever discuss. I know how much it will take to get them where I want them. No need to ask.

"Never would I be having the kind of conversation with a woman that JS69 claims to have had, asking for prices while just kicking tires! "

Damn it. I screwed up. SJG, if you had come with us, you could have been my wingman and kept me from making such a rookie mistake.

I asked her menu and prices mostly out of curiosity and not because of a serious plan to partake. However she was like a 9.7 in looks, so while I agree with Jestrite that I'm usually looking for a GFE, this girl was so hot that I might have ordered ITC from her if her prices were rational.

Jestrite, if I had a girlfriend, she'd probably have to be a prostitute. Those are my only ventures out of the Friend Zone.

John, you should probably be glad SJG pulled an NCNS here. He probably would've parked the motor home in the lot and brought a purple dress and a wash pail into the club with him, looking for a girl both would fit on just right.

PG

Even if she was a prostitute you don't have to treat her like one. When you treat her like a woman and not like a prostitute it works to your advantage. You get more for your money. A little "lovin" a little intimacy. More than just a suck n fuck and goodbye I'm out the door. I can't fuck a woman and go I need some cuddle time and play time. Other wise I may as well jack off and save a whole bunch of money.

As the economy continues to improve, the price of lapdances has slowly begun to creep up. In Philadelphia, it was $20 after the downfall in the economy. Now, many of the clubs have begun to charge $30/lapdance. The increase in price does not necessary benefit the dancer. At $20/lapdance, the dancer received $15 (75%); at $30/lapdance, the dancer receives $20 (66%). So, most of the money is going to the owners of the establishment. Therefore, the only reason I go to stripclubs nowadays, is to try to arrange OTC. The girls prefer OTC if they can overcome the trust factor.

Don't treat a slut like a slut. Don't treat a whore like a whore.

Doesn't matter how hot looking the girl is, should never ask for pricing. Wait until she brings it up. Otherwise, it could be free.

All things said, the San Francisco dancers are some of the most interesting beautiful young women you will likely meet anywhere. The strip club is an okay, but expensive, place to meet them. But beyond that it's got to be civilian.

SJG

What city is that Gewings?

^ Atlanta

I think the clubs ARE exploiting these young women. Many times I will ask them just what fee or pct. The club gets of their money. That gives me opportunity to offer them a better deal where they keep all the money and I have a whole lot more fun.

I agree, and this is why I am calling the current type of SF club a "clip joint". It is intended for taking money off of marks, and they use the girls to do it.

Jim and Artie specifically did not want any club of theirs to be this way. This was why they were always at the forefront of actually delivery for the money, for their time.

I have no objection to club owners and staff making money. The facility has to be paid for somehow, and the girls need regular patronage to be able to be in that business.

But it is when they are imposing arbitrary limits, with no legal justification, just so that they can force you to go through their toll gates, and to actually limit the mileage.

When you can't get friendly with the girl in the front room, then this limits the mileage and quality you will get in the back room. The 'extras' approach is just wrong headed.

So while the S.F. dancers are some of the most interesting young women you will find anywhere, it is pointless to deal with them unless you are going to rapidly move for civilianization and get them out of the club.

Otherwise for S.F. we just have to wait until someone opens a new dive, a club with an unknown name and a nothing special location, a club where they have to try and make money off of regulars by delivering. Probably Pink Diamonds was such a club. So who is going to open the next one?

But be careful, I don't think any of the Bay Area counties are going to be hospitable, and Stockton is not either. I don't really know about Sacramento or Fresno. But in the meantime, S.F. AMPs are as good as it gets.

SJG

John Luc Godard made this film before the Beatles Apple Rooftop Concert film was made: youtube.com

SJG: "MBOT and Crazy Horse were never known for FS."

SJG, with all due respect, when it comes to MBOT, you better pass along whatever you're smoking! True about Crazy Horse, though, mostly lower-level extras, though more can be found

"I'm not sure who runs MBOT now, it might be one of their daughters."

Correct!

"I don't think the high prices are because of losing contractor status law suits with strippers either."

So you think it's coincidence that literally, days after losing an enormous payout, management jacked prices up 2-3x? The price raise is directly, inextricably linked to that lawsuit and the enormous multi-year payout MBOT had to make. Business slowed down so much that management eventually had to lower their booth prices, though, which brought PS prices down somewhat.

"Otherwise for S.F. we just have to wait until someone opens a new dive, a club with an unknown name and a nothing special location, a club where they have to try and make money off of regulars by delivering. Probably Pink Diamonds was such a club. So who is going to open the next one?"

Pink Diamonds was a ghetto, violence-ridden shithole. I do think that SF's SC woes are directly related to the fact that Deja Vu owns every single strip club in the city except for MBOT and Crazy Horse. Not going to be easy to open another independent strip club with Deja Vu protecting their near-monopoly -- they used some underhanded tricks to drive Boys Toys (or whatever it was called) to sell out, for example

@Subraman, When New Century and Market St. Cinema went to fully enclosed rooms and FS, Artie Mitchell was dead and Jim was in the state prison. MBOT was not at that time going in that direction.

Even today I am not sure how much FS goes on in there, versus how much just the idea of it keeps marks paying extreme prices for 'extras'. I suspect that the club and the girls make more money off of the idea that it could potentially be possible, than off of actually doing it.

As far as lawsuits and pricing, they make their money off of marks, because of the world famous name and the land mark real estate. They seemed to have decided to follow Deja Vu and do it the same way they do. Take money off of marks as that way they don't need to do anything which could get them into trouble. The world wide rep is worth more too much to take any risks. The dancers are really hot and interesting, but that club situation is not. It would only appeal to an extras hound, and one with too much money on his hands. For someone who likes GFE encounters, the situation would have to be completely different.

Pink Diamonds may have been everything you say, but if we want quality and economy we need to see more people opening dives, where they make their money off of what they actually do, instead of off of their world wide reputation.

I suspect that Pink Diamonds was similar to the dives we read about in so many other areas of the country.

SJG

Janis Joplin youtube.com

"Even today I am not sure how much FS goes on in there, versus how much just the idea of it keeps marks paying extreme prices for 'extras'. I suspect that the club and the girls make more money off of the idea that it could potentially be possible, than off of actually doing it."

I'm not sure anything I can say would disabuse you of this notion, so I'll save the pixels :) But, I can't understand how anyone who has actually been there could posit that with a straight face. The place may have its problems -- ridiculous entrance fee, girls who think their pussies are plated in platinum, sky high prices (although not as high as JS indicates, he got the "out of towner" special quotes) ... but there's no reason to conjecture, the place delivers, and has been delivering for decades.

Regarding Pink Diamonds, it seems like you're bending reality to fit some model you have in your head... I love little dives. That place wasn't just a little dive, it was a dangerous shithole. Even as someone who would warmly welcome more independent clubs in SF, good riddance to that place. The last thing the SC scene needs here is a club so linked with shootings and assaults. 'course, the place would be good fodder for the tuscl 2AM'er reports!

I agree with the part of your mental map that says little independent dives are good. But your map doesn't match reality when it comes to Pink Diamonds, or to MBOT IME. MBOT delivers actually what you say you want, "where they make their money off of what they actually do" (just at sky high prices)

@JamesSD: "Don't treat a slut like a slut. Don't treat a whore like a whore."

Works more often than not. My ATF/SB used to say that she liked about seeing me was that "You don't treat me like a prostitute, even though that's what I am. You don't judge me. You don't talk to me like I'm dirt."

That was late in our relationship; earlier she'd tended to avoid directly addressing that point.

I've never seen any point in treating a woman like a whore, even if she is.

"You don't judge me." I've heard those exact same words from one on my favorites that is the typical stripper fuck up but she always treats me good.

Subraman, it sounds like JS69 needed to have you there as his wingman.

In the world of prostitution, the only people who take real legal risks are the ones who service the low end. For example, the club formerly known as Pink Diamonds.

Now at a place like MBOT, the world wide reputation is worth more than any benefit which could be obtained by doing FS. But doing just a little bit of FS to keep the fantasy alive, that is a different matter.

So as it applies to MBOT, what is your estimate, what is the ratio of poor chumps who pay extreme prices for 'extras' while fantasizing about the hotties they could be banging if they were rich, to rich chumps who pay the extreme FS price because they believe that such hotties are worth it? One rich chump paying for FS could keep lots and lots of poor chumps paying for 'extras' and fantasizing.

The risk to the club of satisfying a few rich chumps is extremely low, to be considered juxtaposed to the demise of Market St. Cinema which was a place known for real delivery.

But on the other hand, if the girls responded to FS requests by saying, "Sorry we don't do that", then think of what that would do to their phenomenal business of taking money off of poor chumps who live for those fantasies of being able to have what they cannot afford.

Keeping the fantasies going, not delivery, is what rakes in the money.

Now as far as quality of delivery and Pink Diamonds, the looks of the girls is not the only factor. As I see it, it is not even the main factor. Quality depends on the sort of relationship you are able to develop with the girl. It depends on all the external parameters and on how the selection is done.

We read about clubs in other states. The girls come and sit on your lap and start nibbling on your ear and licking your neck. They give you very little choice but to start making out with them. Then they deliver to your full satisfaction, and for a sensible cost. Now yes, these places are dives. They are in unappealing neighborhoods. They attract unsavory people, and it is these clubs that are more likely to get busted. But if we want quality delivery, then this is what we need to have.

So you tell me Subraman, as you are certain that you know what goes on at MBOT. Do you go there and pay for FS? To me, that would mean that you are a rich chump. Mind telling us how much you pay and how many times you have done it?

Or do you go to MBOT and pay for 'extras'. To me, that means that you are a poor chump, and that you do this mostly because of the fantasy of what you would really like to have, but cannot afford. Mind telling us how often you do this, and how much it costs?

As I see it, the only way to patronize MBOT and not be a chump, is if:

1. You are comfortable passing out a big chunk of cash just to flatter a girl. AND
2. You want to be seeing a girl outside, and so what goes on in the club and what it costs are not important.

Maybe in Sacramento, Club Fantasy? Or maybe in Stockton, or Fresno? I don't no. We don't seem to have much.

SJG

The quote that comes to mind is about "teaching a pig to sing", but what the hell :) lol

"Now at a place like MBOT, the world wide reputation is worth more than any benefit which could be obtained by doing FS. But doing just a little bit of FS to keep the fantasy alive, that is a different matter."

I realize this is what fits into your fantasy theory. It just has no basis in reality. Don't believe me, for a moment. Were you ever on redbook before its demise? Do you think that over a decade of thousands (!!!) of reviews detailing FS are all lies? How about the extensive, detailed discussion in the forums?

It isn't "chumps" paying there... it's not hard for a single silicon valley engineer making $120k (which means he's just beginning his career) to afford $350-$450 once or twice a month for FS, which price is easily obtained. Moreover, he gets to have his FS with a gorgeous girl (JS's experience notwithstanding, lots of gorgeous girls to be found at MBOT, whereas escorts never look as good as their pictures), and he gets to keep the fantasy that he's never been to a whore because he's had this at MBOT.

Again, no argument that MBOT is too expensive. But everything else you said is just your weird mental model of the world, which from what I can tell is all developed in front of a computer or based on very odd experiences you've had

I was a big player on RedBook, and I do believe that the reviews were generally truthful. But this was during a looser regulatory era. When Market St. Cinema was pressured into closure, things changed. Some call MBOT, "The Gettysburg of the Sexual Revolution". That rep is worth more than what money could be made by doing FS, at least very much FS. The place is worth too much to let it go the same way as Black Diamonds and Market St. Cinema. So all they need to do is just a little bit of FS, to satisfy those who insist. The legal risk of doing it under those circumstances is darn near zero, and it keeps the poor chumps coming in and drooling and paying for the kind of extras which don't get clubs into trouble.

$350 to $450 for FS is high, but I would not consider it to be insane. The issue is not just that she be a 'gorgeous girl'. The issue is the emotional tenor of the encounter. Is it as nice escort grade GFE session? And even that is not the best. The best is if you can have some unstructured and non-committal interactions with the girl first. This opens the possibility that the two of you can really get along, and so she can get real and just let go.

That this is possible is what makes SC's potentially better than AMPs, AAMPs, Escorts, Lingerie Modeling, or Adult Entertainment.

But unfortunately, most of the S.F. clubs are set up to prevent such unstructured interactions.

Do you have links to some TUSCL discussions about MBOT?

Are you are rich non-chump who pays for FS at MBOT? Mind telling us how much and how many times?

Or are you a poor non-chump who pays for 'extras' at MBOT while fantasizing about what you would be able to do if you were rich? Mind telling us how much you pay and how often you do this?

SJG

The young women who dance in the SF clubs are really interesting. I believe they are way above what you will find anywhere else in the country.

But as for the clubs themselves, I think they are a stinking set up.

So the only reason to spend money in one of them is if you've found a girl you want to start seeing outside, and you just want to get to spend some time with her and to flatter her some. Otherwise, I don't think it is a good deal. It is not just that it is too expensive. Some people can afford it. But it is just too structured, not a good way to interact with the girl.

SJG

Stones youtube.com

" When Market St. Cinema was pressured into closure, things changed. "

Again, that's not true, nothing remotely changed. Anyone who had actually been to MBOT knows that. Exactly one thing changed -- prices went sky high -- and the precipitating event was the lawsuit, nothing to do with MSC. Nor is your claim true that the zillion redbook reviews were pre-"looser regulatory era", whenever that was. Basically, nothing you say jibes with what actually happened there, that's the problem -- you have a theory that you won't let reality shake. Everything else goes downhill from there.

Since everything you say is wrong, no reason for me to tell you how much I pay or how often ... not that it's not something I'm willign to discuss, just not with you at this time, in this ridiculous fantasy discussion

@Subraman. so basically you are saying that @san_jose_guy is an uneducated and inexperienced ass clown who doesn’t know what the fuck he is talking about.

hmmmm. that is a rather perceptive observation

Your idea makes no sense. Say I run a bakery. Then say I cause an automobile accident and end up with a $10Meg judgment against me. Does this mean I can disregard the market place and double my bakery prices just to cover the judgment?

Obviously not.

Prostitution busts are easy to make when the women are openly soliciting. This had to have been how it was in Market St. Cinema. I read the news paper accounts of what happened when Camille Harris replaced Terrance Hallinan. They were busting dancers in quantity. Then over some time which followed, it was eventually pressured into closing.

For some MBOT dancers to do FS with a few guys who really push them and insist, is to take no significant risk. It is only the people who are open about doing it who are taking a risk.

Street hookers get busted all the time, as do those who work in dive strip clubs. But white escorts almost never get busted.

In an MBOT situation, even if they did bust a dancer, FS is probably happening so rarely that it would not effect the club. Very hard to show the club is responsible, not when you can clearly see that it is not a place where much FS happens. I am not saying it never happens. I mean if you try hard enough, who knows where you might be able to make it happen with a woman.

Since, Gavin Newsom has spear headed and AMP raid, and the Pink Diamonds was closed, and then Market St. Cinema.

Sure, sometimes FS probably does occur at MBOT. The prices you suggest are high, but not insane. But what is wrong is the way it is set up, the lack of free form non-committal fraternizing with the girl. This is what SC's offer above all other venues. But when the SC has been redesigned as a clip joint, trying to keep alive something which is mostly a fantasy, then that free form non-committal fraternizing is lost. It stinks.

The women who dance in the SF clubs are extremely interesting, but their clubs are not.

Keep paying big money for crap, and keep fantasizing about what rich guys get. Is that you Subraman? I think it is.

SJG

Holy shit suddenly I don't mind paying $20 per dance in NYC. Hell $40 for head seems cheap compared to these insane prices you guys are quoting.

"@Subraman. so basically you are saying that @san_jose_guy is an uneducated and inexperienced ass clown who doesn’t know what the fuck he is talking about.

hmmmm. that is a rather perceptive observation"

Point taken and well-deserved, Dr Phil

I believe that the couch dances at Skin in West LA are $60 a pop. They got the nerve to clip the songs, too. The next highest are $50 a pop for bed dances @ Ecstasy Theatre in OC, and as JS69 noted $51 nighttime nude prices at BE-LAX.

And yet, I just can't stay away, lol! Ok, I'll try to make this my last response, but I have to admit, I just can't help myself.

"Your idea makes no sense. Say I run a bakery. Then say I cause an automobile accident and end up with a $10Meg judgment against me. Does this mean I can disregard the market place and double my bakery prices just to cover the judgment?"

You're overlooking many things. First, if you were the only bakery in town that served chocolate babka -- which, as everyone knows, is the king of babka -- there will be significant elasticity in pricing, often lower but more profitable volume which evens out. MBOT has always been the only game in town for extras from gorgeous girls; most of the other extras clubs (and there are a bunch, despite your fantasy theory) are mostly ... uh, aesthetically-challenged women. Second, the initial super big rise in prices was a conscious effort by the manager to drive MBOT out of business, in concert with Deja Vu, who would swoop in and purchase it up. That manager was driven out of the business and there were big price drops, to what we see today, by the daughter. Third, for local regulars, the extras prices being quoted aren't that high, as I pointed out but you refuse to acknowledge since it doesn't match your theory. But there are out of towners paying those prices

In short, the girls are selling all the non-extras at the super high prices being asked, funding both their own salaries & healthcare, plus the payout. And extras are available as they always have been, at prices that are high but not a huge problem in Silicon Valley. And MBOT's proposition remains unique, which accounts for significant elasticity in prices. QED

BTW, in terms of non-extras pricing, MBOT is actually a better deal than most of the Deja Vu clubs. For $20, a one-song fairly-high-contact lap dance (at Hustler or GC, for that you get a very low contact one-song lap dance). For $100, you get a completely private, all nude, VERY high contact all-nude private show. At Hustler, that buys you a dance in the still-public VIP room, fully clothed, still low contact.

So: MBOT's non-extras pricing beats most other clubs in this area (yes, such is the state of affairs here). Extras pricing, as I pointed out, is easily affordable, if far more expensive than in less affluent areas

I went back to MBOT a second time with the DS on Thursday night. Prices were as insane as before so we just tipped at the stage. Extras were widely offered at very high starting prices, and since I had my personal dancer I did not negotiate anything. The quality of the dancers was very low for a Thursday including a couple of guys who had sex changes. However the DS got tons of hands on attention at the stage. No guy got anything like the love she received from the dancers.

I'm not doubting what those with more experience report. Just telling you what I experienced in two visits during the same week at this club.

@Subraman, I say you are just completely off base. I'm glad I'm not like you, willing to pay huge amounts of money to girls who may look nice, but getting what is really nothing. I may look like a PL, and in some ways I may be one. But I'm not always going to be one, and because I'm not completely taken in by what goes on at a place like MBOT, I'm not destined to always be a PL.

Someday I'll be back to SF clubs, but it will be when I want to start civilianizing some of their dancers, not just to be played for a chump by the girls and the creepy bouncers.

In the mean time I've got other things I need to be doing, and I'm interested in the clubs in other areas, like San Gabriel Valley and of course TJ.

Not sure if Club Fantasy in Sacramento is any good or not.

I was never in Pink Diamonds, as I did not even know about it until after it was closed. I may have once been in that building many years before it became what it was. But even back then it seemed like there was a seamless flow between the clientele and street hookers.

If we want to be able to have the kinds of free flowing interactions with the women that guys are getting in other states, we need more places like Pink Diamonds, and less like MBOT and the Deja Vu clubs. But of course, a Pink Diamonds type club stands a much greater chance of getting busted. So we just have to wait and see.

SJ69, you brought yourself just the right type of wing man this time, a dancer. All the more true as you were smart enough not to take it beyond the stage, because the way that club operates it's just never going to be worth it. Glad you had a good time. Every great clubber, which you certainly are one of, should go once to MBOT. But as I see it, until some things really change, no reason to go there more than that.

How about Sacramento Club Fantasy? How about more clubs in the Bay Area like Pink Diamonds?

SJG

Black Sabbath youtube.com

" I say you are just completely off base."

lol the person who has been there is off base, the one who has constructed a fantasy world based on what he's read is not. Gotcha!

" I'm glad I'm not like you, willing to pay huge amounts of money to girls who may look nice, but getting what is really nothing"

You don't know what I pay or what I get, because I never answered your questions -- this, too, is another facet of your imaginary world :)