I beleive that the fundamental problem with strippers is that they have weak superegos. This is what makes them willing to operate at the boundary (and sometimes beyond) of the sexual norms of our society. It's what the strip club veteran is looking for. But the weak superego is a two-edged sword: With it comes a lack of qualms with regard to lying, stealing, and scamming. This is justified externally (and possibly internally) via various lame rationalizations: eg outright lying is ok when you are doing it to make money to support your family.
This is the fundamental dilemna that the strip club patron faces.
FONDL, like I've frequently said, within the club I expect to be fed lines of BS and more BS - all intended to hustle my business. I'd do the same, if I were a stripper.
BUT, I would never take my act outside the club, and I'd play within the club rules. Stripping is risk business, and the rules are designed to protect strippers and customers. I've had ATFs that never lied to me or led-me-on inside or outside the club, others have shown less integrity. I spend my time and money with the former and avoid the latter like the plague.
Stripper don't have to lie to be successful, just decent, friendly, and (of course) beautiful.
Mouse, I agree with you. But we aren't talking about morality (at least I wasn't) but accepted behavior. When your broker calls you with a recommendation, do you think it's because he's trying to do you a favor or because he's trying to generate a commission? That's accepted behavior. Is it moral? Who the hell knows. Or cares.
And, slavery was considered both moral and acceptable in those southern states where it was widespread. The more widespread a behaviour is the more likely it will be considered both moral and acceptable.
If the leaders of the country lie, cheat, and steal, then the argument can even be set forth that is immoral not to lie, cheat, and steal if that is what is required to protect your self interests.
A lady I know is teaching her child that there is a moral duty to lie to the government when it is in his best interests or those of his loved ones. She feels absolutely no shame in telling whatever lie is convenient or beneficial *if* it is the government she's lying to. She is also teaching her child that *normally* honesty is the best policy.
Of course, the child wants to know what makes it right to lie to the government. And, she gives him examples of how immoral and evil government can be. Finally, she tells him there is no duty to act honorably to those who do evil. The government starts acting honorably, then it is your duty to reciporcate. The government is corrupt or dangerous, then your duty may include lying, cheating, and stealing.
I think Jefferson might have made similar arguments, but I'm not really sure . . .
FONDL, we could also discuss the immorality of misleading sales pitches from whatever source - car dealer or stripper. Just because a behavior is widespread doesn't make it moral and/or acceptable. Slavery used to be widespread - correct.
Yes but isn't that true of all commercial transactions? Look at all the advertising that implies that you will get much more than you're really getting, eg. if you buy the "right" car all the girls will come running. Or if you use the right toothpaste, or wear the right clothes, or drink the right beer, etc. etc. Advertising almost always stretches the truth, sometimes well beyond the breaking point. Unless you come on like a real jerk, I don't think most strippers are any more misleading than anyone else trying to make a buck. Sure maybe a few girls will mislead a guy well beyond what most of us would consider to be acceptable, but in my experience most don't. Like any industry, strip clubs have their own language and rules, you just have to learn what they are. Does anyone out there really believe that strippers are less honest than your typical used car salesman? Or your broker or financial advisor? (I was one once so I know what I'm talking about.)
Yoda, you're being unfair to Davids. I read his posts differently than you. Davids may have great insight into human nature, including women. For me, Davids is arguing the morality of the so-called fantasy, which often includes flattery, disingenuous flirtation, and "misrepresentation" of the truth. You and I have accepted it as an expected component of the strip club business - we've developed an immunity. But, customers still question the righteousness of it. I can understand Davids' concern.
The last two posts by Fondl and Mouse go a long way towards fueling my opinion that there is NO fundamental problem with strippers but rather, a basic lack of insight by some people as to how clubs work and how women think and interact with men.
Davids, when you think of it, isn't ECONOMICs simply the movement of goods or money between people, while keeping them busy (employed) and hopefully happy. In this regard, strip clubs contribute to the overall economy - what's the harm.
My activity in strip clubs has not caused me harm, but I've indulged with moderation and keep the "working girls" at an emotional distance. I always made certain I knew what I was going to get for my money, and made these "working girls" earn their pay - a clear-cut fee for services client/provider relationship. The strippers I've seen outside the strip club received no compensation - they had to like me for me. If they wanted outside payment, they got dumped ASAP and I moved on to another girl.
The adult sex entertainment industry is as old as mankind. It must be serving some function, otherwise it would have disappeared long ago. You and I will not change it, but we can partake in it with knowledge, maturity, and realistic expections.
A couple of unrelated comments here. First, ALL relationships cost you money. It's just that with strippers it's up front but with other girls it's hidden. But never forget that it's still there.
Second, when you spend money on anything you are voting for more of that good or service be made available. When you don't buy something you're voting for less of it to be made. That's what free enterprise is all about. Sure there are distortions to the market such as government regulation, but for the most part it's consumers who decide what there shoud be more of and what there should be less of. If we spend more on strippers there will be more of them; if we spend less there will be fewer.
I too think that strip joints serve a useful function, even if it's only to provide fun to people of certain tastes. Isn't that what all entertainment businesses do? I also think that many older men go to strip clubs because they want to play a little without being unfaithful to their wives, and because of the artificial atmosphere the strip club is uniquely suited to serve this need.
"Maybe strip clubs are meant to be a check on a potentially bigger problem: prostitution. I think prostitution should be legalized myself. It would be interesting to see what would happen to strip clubs in the face of legalized prostitution."
I'd like to see dancers have the freedom to decide--sans terrorism of law--what acts of prostitution they are willing to provide. Perhaps it is just a dream, but I think a combination strip club and house of prostitution could coexist. I think dancers are very mistaken if they think they would be forced to provide the same services (prostitution) in order to stay in business. Just like like some customers prefer FAT GIANTS some customers prefer an R rated experience to an X rated experience.
Yes that was profound. :) I haven't done it for "fun" in a long time and like jumping out of airplanes the risks might not worth the rewards.
It can be very enjoyable--fun???--- if the dancer is willing and good at providing GFE. Mainly the point is relief and health. The right dancer can make me feel 20 years younger for a few days. Getting old and being old sucks even more than being young.
"regulars end up not improving their skills in a real relationship, which, in the end, is alone what counts."
Why would I want a real [girlfriend] relationship?
I pay $$$ to avoid that very problem. I did have a relationship for 11 years with a wonderful lady. It is sorta like jumping out of an airplane it might be a ton of fun, but when you go splat!!!! on the ground you might realize, assuming you live, that jumping out of airplanes isn't such a great idea.
The great problem for men is that strippers allow them to have a relationship with women--but at a distance; furthermore, the relationship is for a price, and not through an effort. Hence, regulars end up not improving their skills in a real relationship, which, in the end, is alone what counts. However, if everyone views the customer/stripper relationship as simply a way for a guy to relieve sexual tension, then the industry has a social function. But in that case, the girls have to be quite conscious about what their function is and not pretend to be more. The few whom I've met who were realistic about this are memorable--and have my gratitude. I'll never forget one girl who, after I cummed, said, "Sleep well tonight!" Isn't that great?
The US is not even close to free enterprise. That is so obvious I don't think I even need to provide counter examples.
Ultimately society's decisions are based more along the lines of utilitarianism than they are on capitalism (and rightly so).
Oh, and BTW I am certainly not trying to suggest that strip clubs should be illegal. I am thinking more along of the lines of if we could magically make them vanish would society be any worse off? For example if football were to magically vanish from the world would it be any worse off? I don't think so. But I'm certainly not suggesting that football be outlawed (although it would be #1 on my list of sports if I was forced to choose one to outlaw. :-) )
Perhaps the loss of the fast unhealthy food industry would be a net economic and social benefit for society. Just as our representatives decide which drugs should be illegal they can decide which fast foods should be illegal. And, they decide how strip clubs can be run and impose a myriad of regulations and requirements and limits on opening new strip clubs.
So we already live in live in a country where the government decides which businesses should exist and which shouldn't.
The next business that may be put under by the government is the gun industry. That might also equal a net economic and social benefit for society. Government wars decide which businesses should exist and which shouldn't. And, the decision to have a war may be a net economic and social benefit for society.
Perhaps free enterprise is just a tad overrated and real deal in fair managed enterprise . . .
Yoda: Um, Ford produce cars and McDonalds produces big macs, so those aren't exactly good counter examples. Kmart is a better counter example, but certainly there would be a big convenience factor lost if department stores didn't exsist for consumers so it's clear that those industries are contributing something. If strip clubs didn't exsist the loss to society would be some entertainment value.
Purely economically I think alot of the money that the girls make ultimately ends up in supporting various addictions so that's kind of like transferring it (indirectly) from the customers to drug and alcohol dealers and casinos and keeping those (similarly unproductive) industries going. In the meantime there is a loss of productive labour/education for the girls (and also the "addiction" industries they are probably spending alot of their money on) so it all looks like an economic loss to me for strip clubs to exist at all.
Maybe strip clubs are meant to be a check on a potentially bigger problem: prostitution. I think prostitution should be legalized myself. It would be interesting to see what would happen to strip clubs in the face of legalized prostitution. What's the situation like in the parts of Europe where prostituion is legal?
Democracy doesn't equal free enterprise. The latest scam, *I believe*, is tomatoes. The American farmers didn't want to compete so an agreement was reached giving them the winter months sans foreign competition from Mexico. The result was $4+ a pound tomatoes. Of course, I could be wrong because I haven't really been following this *story*/news closely. What I see is one nasty scam after another perpetuated by "law." Like acreage being limited so peanut farmers can rake in the $$$ or citrus growers being rquired to let X amount of produce rot in order to keep prices high or almond farmers being coerced into selling X amount of their production to the government in order to keep prices high or the sugar subsidies to billionaire farmers. I don't have the exact details of each of these scams at my fingertips, but the list goes on and on and on . . .
The court system is little more than an extortion rackett so lawyers can steal $300 and $400 per hour or more. You don't pay-off and the judge rapes you by depriving you of a jury trial. It is so dishonest it is beyond belief. Supposedly there are some soliders out there fighting and killing and crippling people to protect my rights. Well, I'd like to see them come straight to Miami-Dade County. The heart of crooked judges and rampant corruption by the "public servants." Then I might start waving an American flag and being a little patriot. Supposedly people had a right to public trials--what a joke. And, laws were supposed to public as well--again what a joke.
Yes, I believe in the free enterprise system. But, if the game is too rigged then I really don't care too much. Brutal price controls on lawyers and judges would be an excellent start. Five dollars an hour seems a little high. Those savages mainly just feed off of the misery they help create or the misery the system creates. And, judges ordering this or that or whatever usually has nothing to with *free* enterprise. It's violent extortion and fraud. They are often the filth of society. Yes, I've met some very good lawyers who really try and do good or try and improve a rotten system, but it seems so pitiful . . .
Free enterprise??? More like managed enterprise. And this is just another layer of management for the "good of the people" by "our democratically elected representatives."
Most of those representatives don't read or know what they or voting Yea or Nea over. I was doing some research to try and find the legislative intent for a particular law and I had the opportunity to talk with the lawyer who helped draft the legislation and write reports for the different committees. He was totally contemptuous (sp?) that legislative intent existed for most legislation. He stated the bills are too long and complex and most of the legislators are told how to vote. He believed his job and his reports were basically a waste. Special interests ran the show . . .
So why not have some more government deciding what is right and wrong? This is supposedly the greatest country. And, we can thank the government for the wonderful state of affairs. So give the government more power so it can make things even better! :)
Kyle: Dude, we live in a democracy. One of the cornerstones of that democracy is free enterprise. Do you want to live in a country where the government decides which businesses should exist and which shouldn't ?
davids if you must go to a stripclub why not fined one who isn't out to hustle you? I have a better time talking with the ones who tell me about there social problems including their boyfriend than the ones who don't mention anything about their personal life. If they are telling you personal info then it could possibly be that they see you as a nice person and you can also subjectively take it that you need to live your life and not sit around thinking their will ever be anything between the two of you.
I think he has a point; unfortunately. It may be considered a complete waste of "limited resources" to expend time and effort making, distributing, selling, and consuming Christmas lights or balloons or vulgar music with little redeeming social value. If it is truly a waste of limited resources that could be better deployed in health care or justice or fighting terrorists, then perhaps a democratic government has the right and moral obligation to crush and criminalize such wasteful businesses.
I think he's dead wrong, but I see the point. Am I wrong?
Weakness in the superego department? Hmmm . . . if the conscience of an individual states that sexual type services for $$$ is wrong and the individual continues to engage in that behavior because of pressures of the id, then yes it seems like there is a weakness in the superego department.
But, what if the individual believes sex is basically good and that receiving $$$ for sexual type services isn't wrong. IOW, the conscience says it is right. You spend time and effort giving a stranger or even a friend sexual pleasure and in return that person helps you live better . . . a possible win/win situation.
I think sex is a big deal and I have concerns about the morality of strip clubs as well as selling sex for $$$. So let's say I believe sex (any sex) is only right if it is between a man and a woman who have gotten married by the proper religious authorities. Essentially many or most people think it fine and dandy for me to try and impose my moral code on others thru the democratic processes. A nasty reality, imo. Essentially, I believe the cure is worse than the percieved problem or symptom. Death to democracy!!! :)
Davids: Under your theory there is no reason for any private industry to exist. That's what business does: It transfers money from those who supply goods and/or services to those who buy them. Mc'Donalds, Kmart and Ford Motor Company all do the same thing that strip clubs do. If you want to get on your morality soap box that's fine but please don't go trying to espouse economic theories that insult anyone with a functioning brain that works for a living- I am assuming that you fit into this category....
Mouse: Interesting that was the next topic I was going to post here: If strip clubs completely disappeared from the face of the earth would the world be any worse off? Certainly there is nothing economically productive about them: it's just transferring money from one group of people to another (customers to strippers) and then from the strippers to whatever it is that they spend there money on. So from an economic stand point no loss. Maybe there would be a slight lose to society from an entertainment prespective, but I think people would just find other things to do for entertainment so it won't be worse of in that respect. It would probably be better for the strippers overall if they were forced to do more normal work for money or spend their time in school. And for the customers, it's hard to say? What would they spend their money on if there weren't strip clubs? I can't say I know enough customers to say.
Yes, I agree that customers are also weak in the superego department, and that is part of the reason that strippers have to put up with so much shit from them. I would guess that x% of strippers and customers only operate on the boundary of morality in sexual department and are normal in other respects. x is much less than 50 however.
Davids, Kyle1111 makes a good point - if you're to criticize strippers, then you must criticize strip-club customers. Davids, you must be a strip-club customer - quid pro quo - correct!
Granted strippers are "working girls," wherein the strip club experience includes the "fantasy." I doubt, if you, or anyone else is going to change that - besides strip clubs are optional.
As long as the strip-club fantasy stays within the strip-club walls, I have no trouble with it - in fact, I believe strip clubs provide a postive dimension to society. In fact, I'm glad there are attactive women willing to do it; otherwise, many average men would never have intimate contact with such women.
However, problems develop when perfidious strippers take their so-called fantasy outside the strip club in attempts to scam the unwary lovelorn customers out of their hard-earned money.
Strippers provide entertainment for money, not because customers are attractive to them. Customers should not get too wrapped-up in strippers, but always maintain a healthy emotional distance.
Do you believe "strip club patrons" operate at the boundary (and sometimes beyond) of the sexual norms of our society or is your observation just applicable to dancers?
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BUT, I would never take my act outside the club, and I'd play within the club rules. Stripping is risk business, and the rules are designed to protect strippers and customers. I've had ATFs that never lied to me or led-me-on inside or outside the club, others have shown less integrity. I spend my time and money with the former and avoid the latter like the plague.
Stripper don't have to lie to be successful, just decent, friendly, and (of course) beautiful.
And, slavery was considered both moral and acceptable in those southern states where it was widespread. The more widespread a behaviour is the more likely it will be considered both moral and acceptable.
If the leaders of the country lie, cheat, and steal, then the argument can even be set forth that is immoral not to lie, cheat, and steal if that is what is required to protect your self interests.
A lady I know is teaching her child that there is a moral duty to lie to the government when it is in his best interests or those of his loved ones. She feels absolutely no shame in telling whatever lie is convenient or beneficial *if* it is the government she's lying to. She is also teaching her child that *normally* honesty is the best policy.
Of course, the child wants to know what makes it right to lie to the government. And, she gives him examples of how immoral and evil government can be. Finally, she tells him there is no duty to act honorably to those who do evil. The government starts acting honorably, then it is your duty to reciporcate. The government is corrupt or dangerous, then your duty may include lying, cheating, and stealing.
I think Jefferson might have made similar arguments, but I'm not really sure . . .
My activity in strip clubs has not caused me harm, but I've indulged with moderation and keep the "working girls" at an emotional distance. I always made certain I knew what I was going to get for my money, and made these "working girls" earn their pay - a clear-cut fee for services client/provider relationship. The strippers I've seen outside the strip club received no compensation - they had to like me for me. If they wanted outside payment, they got dumped ASAP and I moved on to another girl.
The adult sex entertainment industry is as old as mankind. It must be serving some function, otherwise it would have disappeared long ago. You and I will not change it, but we can partake in it with knowledge, maturity, and realistic expections.
Second, when you spend money on anything you are voting for more of that good or service be made available. When you don't buy something you're voting for less of it to be made. That's what free enterprise is all about. Sure there are distortions to the market such as government regulation, but for the most part it's consumers who decide what there shoud be more of and what there should be less of. If we spend more on strippers there will be more of them; if we spend less there will be fewer.
I too think that strip joints serve a useful function, even if it's only to provide fun to people of certain tastes. Isn't that what all entertainment businesses do? I also think that many older men go to strip clubs because they want to play a little without being unfaithful to their wives, and because of the artificial atmosphere the strip club is uniquely suited to serve this need.
I'd like to see dancers have the freedom to decide--sans terrorism of law--what acts of prostitution they are willing to provide. Perhaps it is just a dream, but I think a combination strip club and house of prostitution could coexist. I think dancers are very mistaken if they think they would be forced to provide the same services (prostitution) in order to stay in business. Just like like some customers prefer FAT GIANTS some customers prefer an R rated experience to an X rated experience.
Yes that was profound. :) I haven't done it for "fun" in a long time and like jumping out of airplanes the risks might not worth the rewards.
It can be very enjoyable--fun???--- if the dancer is willing and good at providing GFE. Mainly the point is relief and health. The right dancer can make me feel 20 years younger for a few days. Getting old and being old sucks even more than being young.
Yes, that is great. :)
Why would I want a real [girlfriend] relationship?
I pay $$$ to avoid that very problem. I did have a relationship for 11 years with a wonderful lady. It is sorta like jumping out of an airplane it might be a ton of fun, but when you go splat!!!! on the ground you might realize, assuming you live, that jumping out of airplanes isn't such a great idea.
Ultimately society's decisions are based more along the lines of utilitarianism than they are on capitalism (and rightly so).
Oh, and BTW I am certainly not trying to suggest that strip clubs should be illegal. I am thinking more along of the lines of if we could magically make them vanish would society be any worse off? For example if football were to magically vanish from the world would it be any worse off? I don't think so. But I'm certainly not suggesting that football be outlawed (although it would be #1 on my list of sports if I was forced to choose one to outlaw. :-) )
Perhaps free enterprise is just a tad overrated and the real deal is fair managed enterprise . . .
Big macs = death and addiction?
Perhaps the loss of the fast unhealthy food industry would be a net economic and social benefit for society. Just as our representatives decide which drugs should be illegal they can decide which fast foods should be illegal. And, they decide how strip clubs can be run and impose a myriad of regulations and requirements and limits on opening new strip clubs.
So we already live in live in a country where the government decides which businesses should exist and which shouldn't.
The next business that may be put under by the government is the gun industry. That might also equal a net economic and social benefit for society. Government wars decide which businesses should exist and which shouldn't. And, the decision to have a war may be a net economic and social benefit for society.
Perhaps free enterprise is just a tad overrated and real deal in fair managed enterprise . . .
Purely economically I think alot of the money that the girls make ultimately ends up in supporting various addictions so that's kind of like transferring it (indirectly) from the customers to drug and alcohol dealers and casinos and keeping those (similarly unproductive) industries going. In the meantime there is a loss of productive labour/education for the girls (and also the "addiction" industries they are probably spending alot of their money on) so it all looks like an economic loss to me for strip clubs to exist at all.
Maybe strip clubs are meant to be a check on a potentially bigger problem: prostitution. I think prostitution should be legalized myself. It would be interesting to see what would happen to strip clubs in the face of legalized prostitution. What's the situation like in the parts of Europe where prostituion is legal?
Democracy doesn't equal free enterprise. The latest scam, *I believe*, is tomatoes. The American farmers didn't want to compete so an agreement was reached giving them the winter months sans foreign competition from Mexico. The result was $4+ a pound tomatoes. Of course, I could be wrong because I haven't really been following this *story*/news closely. What I see is one nasty scam after another perpetuated by "law." Like acreage being limited so peanut farmers can rake in the $$$ or citrus growers being rquired to let X amount of produce rot in order to keep prices high or almond farmers being coerced into selling X amount of their production to the government in order to keep prices high or the sugar subsidies to billionaire farmers. I don't have the exact details of each of these scams at my fingertips, but the list goes on and on and on . . .
The court system is little more than an extortion rackett so lawyers can steal $300 and $400 per hour or more. You don't pay-off and the judge rapes you by depriving you of a jury trial. It is so dishonest it is beyond belief. Supposedly there are some soliders out there fighting and killing and crippling people to protect my rights. Well, I'd like to see them come straight to Miami-Dade County. The heart of crooked judges and rampant corruption by the "public servants." Then I might start waving an American flag and being a little patriot. Supposedly people had a right to public trials--what a joke. And, laws were supposed to public as well--again what a joke.
Yes, I believe in the free enterprise system. But, if the game is too rigged then I really don't care too much. Brutal price controls on lawyers and judges would be an excellent start. Five dollars an hour seems a little high. Those savages mainly just feed off of the misery they help create or the misery the system creates. And, judges ordering this or that or whatever usually has nothing to with *free* enterprise. It's violent extortion and fraud. They are often the filth of society. Yes, I've met some very good lawyers who really try and do good or try and improve a rotten system, but it seems so pitiful . . .
Free enterprise??? More like managed enterprise. And this is just another layer of management for the "good of the people" by "our democratically elected representatives."
Most of those representatives don't read or know what they or voting Yea or Nea over. I was doing some research to try and find the legislative intent for a particular law and I had the opportunity to talk with the lawyer who helped draft the legislation and write reports for the different committees. He was totally contemptuous (sp?) that legislative intent existed for most legislation. He stated the bills are too long and complex and most of the legislators are told how to vote. He believed his job and his reports were basically a waste. Special interests ran the show . . .
So why not have some more government deciding what is right and wrong? This is supposedly the greatest country. And, we can thank the government for the wonderful state of affairs. So give the government more power so it can make things even better! :)
I think he has a point; unfortunately. It may be considered a complete waste of "limited resources" to expend time and effort making, distributing, selling, and consuming Christmas lights or balloons or vulgar music with little redeeming social value. If it is truly a waste of limited resources that could be better deployed in health care or justice or fighting terrorists, then perhaps a democratic government has the right and moral obligation to crush and criminalize such wasteful businesses.
I think he's dead wrong, but I see the point. Am I wrong?
Weakness in the superego department? Hmmm . . . if the conscience of an individual states that sexual type services for $$$ is wrong and the individual continues to engage in that behavior because of pressures of the id, then yes it seems like there is a weakness in the superego department.
But, what if the individual believes sex is basically good and that receiving $$$ for sexual type services isn't wrong. IOW, the conscience says it is right. You spend time and effort giving a stranger or even a friend sexual pleasure and in return that person helps you live better . . . a possible win/win situation.
I think sex is a big deal and I have concerns about the morality of strip clubs as well as selling sex for $$$. So let's say I believe sex (any sex) is only right if it is between a man and a woman who have gotten married by the proper religious authorities. Essentially many or most people think it fine and dandy for me to try and impose my moral code on others thru the democratic processes. A nasty reality, imo. Essentially, I believe the cure is worse than the percieved problem or symptom. Death to democracy!!! :)
Granted strippers are "working girls," wherein the strip club experience includes the "fantasy." I doubt, if you, or anyone else is going to change that - besides strip clubs are optional.
As long as the strip-club fantasy stays within the strip-club walls, I have no trouble with it - in fact, I believe strip clubs provide a postive dimension to society. In fact, I'm glad there are attactive women willing to do it; otherwise, many average men would never have intimate contact with such women.
However, problems develop when perfidious strippers take their so-called fantasy outside the strip club in attempts to scam the unwary lovelorn customers out of their hard-earned money.
Strippers provide entertainment for money, not because customers are attractive to them. Customers should not get too wrapped-up in strippers, but always maintain a healthy emotional distance.
Do you believe "strip club patrons" operate at the boundary (and sometimes beyond) of the sexual norms of our society or is your observation just applicable to dancers?