I certainly don't agree with 90% of Yoda's views on morals or his rather idyllic notions of strippers, but he did make a good point to me: I shouldn't be spending money on a group whose members I generally have such contempt for.
From now on, I think I'll just spend on the 1-2% I still think meet be ok, and then when that lot runs its course, I'll retire. Thanks for your advice, master Yoda!
Mouse, all I ever said was that they think diferently. There was no percentage value attached. It now appears that you are in agreement with me. Davids may be as well but he hasn't stated as such. I think it's always best to argue for yourself and not for somebody else. Note: agreeing with someone's point is not the same as attempting to read their minds.
There was an interesting quote on the news this morning about women being underestimated in their ability to commit serious crimes because they are women. (it was in relation to the case of the woman in Texas who murdered her kids a few years ago). I'm curious. Are men surprised when a women lies to them because she is a woman or because she is lying?
By the statement that women think completely differently than men, are we to jump to the next logical conclusion that all men think like all other men? That all women think like all other women?? Of course not!!! Everyone is individual, with many complex thought patterns that are gender-neutral. And just what "thionking" are being addressed here? Sex, money, family, religion, career, etc etc.....? Or just thinking in the SC?? Like Mouse said, there are more similarities than differences between the sexes...more than some people would care to admit.
Everyone will believe what they want to believe. That's fine by me...I know I'm right! ;)
When practices permeate a culture they become social conventions just like wearing a suit and tie in court or saluting the flag or making payoffs or whatever else becomes the norm. Yes, you can be the odd ball or sucker or social reformer. But, if you consider what is best for you and your family, then it usually pays to go with the flow.
I was investgating store fronts for possible rental or purchase and was collecting phone numbers and making notes about each property and the area. I see this one store front that looks like it might fit the mold and I was jotting down the information on the for rent sign. But, before I finished I noticed an old man just sitting in the middle of the store on a stool so I walk in. Immediately he jumps up and gets all excited and asks are "You the inspector?" I say no and he collapses back into the chair evidently depressed. Turns out he has been waiting 2 weeks for an inspector. Just sitting and waiting. He told me he calls every day and is told just be patient someone will be out the next day early and if they don't show wait. So his life is being wasted waiting and waiting and waiting, just to get a simple inspection that will take about 10 minutes max. I didn't know what to do. I was afraid to tell him he needed to make a payoff (with a payoff you get excellent service fast) and yet I felt bad that he is wasting his life and jumping thru hoops. Well, it is better for me to look the other way . . . About a week to ten days later he was still waiting.
Yes, I hear a lot of noise about two wrongs don't make a right and other garbage like that. Society makes choices and you can either be a moron or get with the program. If I get heat for trying standing up to a thug, then it the future I'll just be looking the other way. Someone needs my help? It just don't make sense unless my risk is very low of getting in trouble with the government.
I found this very young lady's purse. So I give her a call because there are personal items. She takes my information and I tell her she can pick it up just call first. Turns out she was brutally raped (fortunately the rapists were black so I wasn't a suspect). Anyway, much much later I get a subpeona (sp?) early in morning ordering me to be downtown that same day during working hours. I give the attorney a courtesy call to let her know I won't be going. She goes off the deep end yelling it is a court order! You will be doing jail time and get hit with a huge fine! I replied I'm just giving you a courtesy call so you don't waste your time. She goes blah, blah, blah. I say "Look, I know the courts are corrupt and you probably have the judge in your pocket. I just don't care anymore. Have a nice day." The moral is LOOK THE OTHER WAY. Why in the world get involved even if the person desperately needs your help? Enough already. I don't expect anyone to help me and they sure as hell can't expect anything from me. The society has made its choice and I need for my own security and benefits to play the game. Somebody doesn't get the help they deserve it's just part of the game . . .
My guess is that Yoda is the misogynist which is why he didn't post his views on women's mind when challenged. Just my guess, but we'll never know for sure.
Yoda, I believe most posting here (including you, David's, and I) would agree that there are, indeed, some differences in how men and women think. Likewise, there are many similarities. In fact, I submit that men and women actually think more alike than differently – that is, both being Homo sapiens
Be that as it may, I think the main topic of this thread is the sundry disingenuous beguiling behaviors of strippers as they solicit clients within (and sometimes outside) the strip club – admittedly behaviors that also occur in other aspects of our culture, such as politics, insurance, used car sales, etc. Just because these practices permeate our culture does not make it OK. Personally, I believe honesty is the best policy and wish lying was eliminated completely in our culture. Not to worry, I won’t hold my breath.
Since I go to strip clubs to enjoy the sights, sounds, touches, and conversation, I’m not upset when a stripper lies to me. Why should I care; I’m not buying honesty. I’m buying a hassle-free, R-rated, sexual experience.
Mouse: What the fuck did that mean??!?!?
Never mind, I looked it up...
Mouse, this is called an argument, sometimes it happens on discussion boards when 2 people - or groups of people have differing opinions. I know you are familiar with my opinions as I am familiar with yours. Weather we agree or not, it's always more interesting than reading 30 consecutive RL posts.
That being said, I don't argue with footnotes or bibliographies. I make statements based on my experiences. I don't quote statistics that either don't exist or I have no basis in fact. It IS a biological and sociological fact that women's brains work differently than men's-by the way, I feel that this is a good thing. If you think I'm full of shit that's fine. YOU go look it up and prove me wrong. I already know it's a fact.
As far as my opinions about the subject, I've spent nearly 50 years in a variety of personal and business relatioships dealing with women. In that time I've learned a few things. I will or won't share it when I feel like it, not on demand. I know you view this board as a means of educating people about strip clubs. I don't. I'm here to have fun. Discourse is fun, even this discourse.
I've never claimed to be smarter than anybody on this board. If you or anyone else takes exception to my choice of words or my writing style that's just peachy with me. I'm too old to change and I'm certainly not posting for anyones approval. I put in my 2 cents just as you and every other poster does. When I agree with a poster I say so and when I don't agree I do my best to present an alternate argument.
Yoda, you boast of your in-depth knowledge of women (and men), attempting to discredit Davids’ position. Yet, when challenged to display some of your self-professed mental prowess, you shrink away. This makes me suspicious that your rodomontade has no basis in fact. Prove me wrong!
Davids: I agree, all gross generalizations are wrong.
Davids, I would agree with you in most areas but this isn't one of them. In fact, women's brains are different than men's, and therefore it's accurate to say that they think differently. It's part of that Y chromosome thing. I know it's politically correct to say that except to our sex organs men and women are the same. But it isn't true, we're different. That's a generalization for which there are no exceptions.
Hi Yoda,
Responsibility sounds good, but some people are really not fully adults even if they're 40 or 50 years old. That is where strong family ties become so critical. I was taking care of this young woman and she was basically a very sweet and kind person, but essentially she needed her family or a person with a lot of time and strength to look after her. I ended up calling the woman's grandmother who seemed like she had brains and compassion. The problem was the grandmother was in very bad shape and couldn't help. There was no other family capable of helping.
You may ask why I didn't keep looking out for her. Well, from the beginning I was reluctant to help her because I didn't want any trouble with the police. As I got old I became far less willing to take the law into my own hands. Sure I had for the most part been well treated by the police with a few HUGE EXCEPTIONS, but it only takes one bad or mentally slow cop to ruin your life in those situations (the courts are very unlikely to do the right thing and cost $$$ and forget about a real jury trial--very unlikely). You may wonder what taking care of a sweet young woman has to do with the police. Well she is living in a poor area where some of the people her age are not exactly a good influence to say the least. I came into contact with some of these people and lucky for me they wanted easy prey and chose to back off (at least temporarily). What if they didn't want easy prey? What if the next baddie needs proof . . .
I still remember this one police officer who was very angry that I didn't take care of business myself instead of wasting his time. Well, I would rather take care of business myself. The problem is a different police officer may believe I have NO business taking care of business and should call the police. The best course of action for me is not to help/payoff if necessary/retreat/etc.
All gross generalizations are wrong.
Do not say that all women think differently than men. It is a gross generalization. There are always exceptions to everything.
Yoda: Wrong.
Kyle: People do stupid hurtful things sometimes. I expect more from men too and I'm sadly dissapointed when I see them act in a dissrespectful maner towards someone that they supposedly care about. However, at some point it becomes the responsibility of the woman to get herself out of the bad situation that she is in.
Davids: I have no reason to lie on this board, Do you? I'm not here to impress anybody, are you? Pragmatic? Yeah, absolutely. I'm not here to buy into stereotypes or your bogus undocumented percentages of good vs. evil strippers. I speak only in terms of my experiences in clubs, in life and with women in general and dancers in particlar. I don't really expect to change your mind about anything, and if hate is too strong a word to describe your feelings about dancers than you can certainly use any word you like.
A RIL? Sure, I've RIL'd in the past and I probably will RIL again in the future. But you have too, that's where your disdain for dancers comes from.
Once again I have to agree with Yoda, he and I obviously have had very similar experiences and have similar views. I never said that I thought girls in strip clubs were similar to girls in general, in fact I've often said the exact opposite. Almost every dancer I've ever met has come from a really screwed up background and has been repeatedly taken advantage of by men. This tends to give them very different views than the average woman. And as a result I often find them to be very interesting because they are so different from the people who I know outside the club. For me it's one of the main attractions of clubbing. I enjoy meeting people who are different. And knowing that they tend to be different means that you have to treat them differently than you would a typical woman. And like Yoda says, all women think differently than men. And if you've ever raised both a son and a daughter, you know what we mean.
Yoda: Hate's a pretty strong word. Implies I want to burn down their homes or something. I would just say "am disguested by and dislike the vast majority". But you've set me on the right path as this thread was all about emphasizing.
I don't know if you are getting what you want out of SCs or not. I have no reason to doubt it, but on the other hand maybe you are just saying that to make yourself look good to us since your attitude to honesty seems to be rather pragmatic shall we say. Only you know for sure.
Certainly I consider you to be an RIL: regular in love with the strippers. I think this love blinds you to alot of truths. But then again maybe you just don't agree that lying, scamming, and stealing are immoral. Strange but certainly possible.
Hi Yoda,
It is not something you would casually notice even at the cheap clubs. And, even then the dancer is in a way doing it of her own free will. It is not so much force it is a scam she's the victim of.
When I say pimp, I'm also talking about the "boyfriend" that derives his income from his dancer(s) who provide sexual type services like lap dancing. If there is sexual contact, then I see dancing as a form of prostitution.
The last dancer I saw who appears to be a victim of her "boyfriend"/pimp tells one lie after another. The lies seem designed to protect herself from the ugly truth. Her "boyfriend"/pimp has at least 1 other hot dancer giving him her $$$. From what I can see he is smooth, seems like a very personable fellow, and doesn't rely on brute force.
I don't like seeing basically good people being taken serious advantage of. With the strip club customer I'm not as sympathetic because the amounts scammed are usually relatively small. A customer losing a few thousand dollars doesn't really compare, in my book, to a woman having all her money taken year after year until she loses her ability to sell her body for a reasonable profit.
And, I also expect more out of a man! :) Yes, I know that is not really right, but it is a difficult belief system to rid myself of. The woman should be provided for and protected by the man. Seems silly and old fashioned. Especially when you have women who are strong and don't need protecting while the man may need a mommy or at least someone to look out for him.
Davids: Right or wrong is a matter of opinion in this case. What I see is me posting that I'm satisfied with my SC experiences and you bitching and moaning about how much you hate dancers. You don't have to agree with me. I'm getting what I want and ultimately thats all I care about!
Kyle: You raise a valid point about what proably goes on is some situations in some clubs. I don't know anything about the clubs you go to. I've been to clubs all over the country ad I've never seen a dancer being forced to do a anything she didn't want to do. Since I haven't been to every club, I can't say it never happens. As for pimps, etc-I'm not talking about what goes on between a hooker and her pimp. That is an entirely different dynamic. Some will say it's the same but I dissagree.
Mouse: It would take a lifetime to explain it to you. I know what I know and I know what works for me. Your a smart fellow, I'm sure you've figured out what works for you. Take a psych. class - in point of fact, a strip club IS a psych class!- and listen to people with an open mind, you will see that the differences are readily apparent.
Yoda, your comment "B" above is most interesting. You indicate you know the difference between how men and women think. I'd like to read your views in this regard. Please share. What are the differences?
Yoda is wrong again here: Customers rule like in any other business. It's them who ultimately determine whether they spend their money like that. Any business person who is does not understand that it's the customers who rule and think the seller does is not going to do very well. Oh, unless of course they are completely immoral and running some sort of a scam... But it's just a normal business right Yoda, so that would never happen now would it?
Hi Yoda,
Perhaps in the expensive clubs Dancers rule. In the cheap clubs they are fairly vulnerable, if you know what you're doing. When people are hurting they are much easier to take advantage of. In the cheap clubs you will find many very nice women who are under a lot of pressure for one reason or another. Women or men, that is the time people can really be totally victimized.
That is how the legal system works and the way a good pimp or con man works. I've had total morons and fairly intelligent people assume/believe that I didn't have the knowledge to pull the same shit. What I lack is the desire to hurt good people for $. Even people who aren't very good I'd rather let someone else do the honors and I'll just be a lazy bum. :)
So Yoda, you can beat the system. You can have girls speading their legs for other men and giving you their hard earned cash. But, there is a price for at least people with some conscience . . .
The proof the "system" can be beaten is fairly obvious . . .
Mouse: I never said they are "average girls" now did I. You certainly have your head screwed on a lot better than davids or Kyle do but you are arguing a point that has nothing to do with what I said. My stance has always been and will always be that:
A: Stripping is a business and, as in any business, some people will act more ethicaly than others. If some poor bastard gets his wallet emptied or his heart broken by a dancer he needs to learn a lesson from it, get over it and move on. This may mean never setting foot in a club again or it may mean you become wiser and more realistic about what to expect when you do go.
B: Dancers are women before they are dancers. Any male who doesn't understand the differences between men and women is going to be TOTALLY SCREWED in the strip club environment. I'm not talking about anatomy here, I'm talking about the way a women's mind works versus the way a man's mind works: Learn it, accept it, remember it every time a woman ever approaches you and your wallet in a profit making environment.
C:read a and b agian.
I don't really give a flying fuck if you guys think I'm right or wrong. I'm just stating my opinions based on my experiences as a normal, open minded guy with a basically positive outlook on the world and on women. I just spent the better part of the afternoon in the company of three very beautiful South American dancers at a favorite club of mine. I bought dances, had a few drinks and left spending less than I had planned on with a big smile on my face. I know EXACTLY wat I want out of my strip club experience and I figured out a long time ago how to get it. Most of the bitching I see here is from guys who haven't figured it out yet or think that there must be a way to beat the system. Guess what, there isn't. In the strip club environment Dancers rule. Period. It's up to the customer to either figure out how to have a good time without feeling like an idiot or stay home and wack-off to internet porn....
Get REAL Yoda and FONDL! Strippers are not your average girls - they are cut from the more libertine minded women in our culture. This doesn't make them better or worse than other women. Morality is relative to the culture, and what's culturally accepted in the USA is always changing - actually becoming more libertine in my opinion. There seems to be no shortage of women ready to join the adult entertainment business. What's important for strip-club customers is that they keep a clear head, know the score, and stay out of trouble. Strip clubs are for entertainment - all bought and paid for. Leave it at that!
I have to agree with Yoda on this one. Davids, I think you have a very distorted view of strippers and possibly women in general. I don't know what happened to you to make you this way but you need to get over it. I agree that strippers are not representative of women in general but I've met a great many of them who are very nice people. Why not find one you really like and get to know her well? You might be surprised how rewarding it can be. Sure it will cost you money, but so will a relationship with any woman.
Kyle: You'll have to forgive Yoda. He is in love with strippers and lives in a fantasy world in which they are angels and can get away with murder, b/c if they couldn't well that would mean they aren't angels and his love would be misplaced.
He can't see them for what they really are. Love blinds. Probably at the bottom of it is that they share the same morals he does.
You see for he him he cannot phathom that someone could like more typical groups of women but not strippers. To him strippers are just another group of women doing a normal job. So if you don't like strippers you can't like any women. Not exactly great logic, so I'm not bothered by this.
The bottom line is that along with all the idyllic, fluffy non-sense he posts there was one good point. Thus I think his overall existence of this board is worth it overall.
And you, Yoda, you are so in love with strippers that you cannot see their obvious faults. Or maybe you just wish you could be doing what they do? Strippers are not a typical group of women by any means: your fantasies not withstanding.
Perhaps I'm not reading carefully or perceptively enough. I think it is possible to hate strippers and love women so I wonder why you think Davids hates women as a whole. He may just hate women who engage in certain behaviour.
Davids: My notions on dancers or morals are not idyllic, just realistic. I happen to like women, you obviously don't. It's been obvious since your first posts here that you have an axe to grind. That’s fine, that’s one of the reasons this board is here. Guys like you keep it interesting. I think your issues with the opposite sex go way beyond their chosen occupation.
Actually davids, I didn't post it because I didn't feel like holding myself up to ridicule from the small minds on this board on this issue. Do you post everything you feel about avery topic? There are some things that are personal. Full disclosure is not a prerequisite to an intelligent argument. What you think about my feelings trowards women is not important to me. You will think whatever you want no matter what I say to try and dissprove you so I'm not going to bother. I know the truth and the women I know also do.