I have read that guide and I think it is written for Hipsters by Hipsters ...
However if you are a regular horny man in Portland who wants an extremely high mileage lap dance for $20/song come to Pitiful Princess at SE Division and 122nd read tuscl reviews for more info.
IMO, there's a club for every taste in PDX, but doubtful on mileage let alone 'extremely high.' You would thing that all the competition would make fore good mileage, but the clubs I went to weren't anything special for mileage. Maybe there's a big difference for regulars, IDK.
Well there's plenty of clubs all across America for high mileage and extras. It's the bane of existence for strip clubs nowadays. Portland remains one of the last cities anywhere that has a healthy strip club scene. Not even Vancouver has survived the deterioration of strip clubs of the past 15 years.
You can thank Portland's scene to the very "hipsters" you denounce.
Economically depressed areas. And Detroit is scavenger city. The only way they can stay in business is to operate as a brothel thinly disguised as a strip club. You need to see the big picture if you think that defines a financially healthy strip club scene.
Portland does seem to be a mixed "mileage" environment. Some of the clubs look to be extreme, but others maybe nothing?
I was just discussing this Casa Diablo with someone who posted a review. They insist that everyone who sits at the stage has to tip $2 per song, and that there is never to be any touching.
This reminds me of how it is in Sunnyvale. The want some minimum tipping level. They actually do a tips round through the entire house. They do this, because the dancers aren't allowed to try and make money any other way. So if they are to work there, they need this. So this Casa Diablo would seem to want to go back to an older model for SC's.
I believe that hipsters would like this sort of thing. I follow the link to the newspaper guide. Only maybe one of the places do I recognize as one the extreme mileage dancers talk about.
Hipsters are not mongers. They are more into looking cool, into believing that they have some kind of inside track. Sometimes they even bring their girl friends to SC's. Pretty stupid if you ask me. Maybe they think the girl will become more stripper like, for them. Not likely.
In Portland dancers are able to represent themselves, and some go way beyond what any SC owner could ever countenance. Once the girl can represent herself and it is possible to contact her, then she is potentially your escort.
With some of these Portland places, I wonder if the "mileage" goes as high in the night time as it does in the day time. In the day time they have just a minimum of dancers, and so they have enough VIP rooms. But at night time they have more dancers, and so I wonder if it's more back to the booths and dry humping and "extras" and all the usual expensive nonsense and perversion, instead of FS.
I know of a place in Louisiana which boosts 6 VIP rooms!
I know of a place in Portland which seems to be half way in between an SC and a Lingerie Modeling / Adult Entertainment place. They have a stage and a pole, but it is too small to be a real SC. I have read that they try to pair you up with a girl right away, along with getting a big chunk of money out of you right off. But there is also evidence to suggest that they could be offering MSOG.
You don't know what you are getting if it is done this way, quickly pairing you up with a girl. No low cost non-committal fraternizing, like you can get in an SC. No chance to flirt with the girl and then to court her.
Someone has written about how open in their body posture and communications style the girls are when they first approach you. Well yes, usually young women are not this way, especially if beautiful and scantily clad. So probably this means FS. Probably the person who wrote the review is the one who coaches the girls to do it this way.
But unless you can court the girl some, which is the potential strength of an SC, then you don't really know what to expect when they separate you from your money. If I can court the girl, then I can see if there is some rapport and some mutual respect. But without this, it could be she just sees me as another PL, and she is having to do a tough job which requires maintaining her emotional barriers.
So in my mind at this time, Portland is still a very mixed situation. As you can see, I am reluctant to name specific clubs when it comes to mongering issues. But I still hope more information can be communicated and that there can be a clearer understanding of the issues conveyed on TUSCL.
Jestrite50 explains in clear language how to set up a great SC encounter, and I agree with him completely. This is why SC's have the potential to be better than AMPs, AAMPs, Escorts, Lingerie Modeling, and Adult Entertainment venues:
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…
Yeah, I would like to say I agree to a certain extent about Jestrite's experience.
In fact, if the dancer is showing high degree of engagement she is definitely communicating in that regard very strongly and that should get my gears shifting higher as well.
Same like my CF who propositioned to me in the first five minutes of our meeting. Looking at her face I knew she was serious and would like to get me away from the other dancer I'm seeing there for the night. She was so quick to pounce on me and she got me in the end. And as of today, she still has me.
Same like the Tall dancer I met in the SC, she was following the club rules and would not want to get fired, so she had to get my digits and it all started from there. She literally sent me so many texts about her true intentions, she is like my CF who just went for it and won me.
See, my early experiences were with the local zero touching clubs. So you could look, and to some extent you could talk and flirt. I loved it!
You just had to accept the fact that that was all you could do, and that to get to see a dancer outside you would have to jump through some hoops. Most of them did not do OTC back then, and besides that was not what I was looking for. So the dancers had to be guarded about outside contact, though of course they were not completely guarded. You just had to jump through some hoops.
But visiting these places was cheap. You could talk for little or no money. Sometimes the talk could go quite far. Sometimes you could get a girl partaking of a most graphic conversation, and that will effect her. It is almost like having gotten her to consent to FS right then and there.
But then San Francisco and other places started going to booths and back rooms, and so the cost sky rocketed. Even though where I live they remain constrained by zero touching rules, they still have these pricey private air dances, where the girl has to stay on a raised stage. $20, $40. It is a joke. They have this just to try and keep the girls happy, to give them some way to make money. It is better just to press the money into her hand, and have her sit with you and keep talking.
Now in other places they do "extras". I've never really gone along with this concept. I have no interest in paying a dancer to make me ejaculate. I think that is silly.
I mean once in a great while, with a girl I am in an ongoing sexual relationship with. Or maybe when both parties understand that FS will be happening soon, then just for today I will put on a show for her by letting her watch what happens when I cum, making it all a rehearsal for FS.
But otherwise I don't like the idea. I think this "extras" model, with its focus on quick ejaculation and very little in the way of female surrender, contributes to sexual frustration and dysfunction. I don't like it.
I also don't like the fact that in many clubs they are doing FS, but again, they are doing it with no female surrender. Instead they do it by dissociation. I call this extras-FS. The dancers don't even seem to consider it as sex.
So at this point I say that we should not be talking about "mileage" or "extras" as that only contributes to a problem, expensive SC's which do nothing but cause sexual frustration and dysfunction.
Looking and talking is fine. But what we should really be promoting is very civilian like FS, I mean GFE-FS, the kind where the female surrenders her emotional defenses. For her to do this for the first time with a particular guy is a big deal. She has to be able to come to like him, and she needs some time to let this happen.
Good escorts can start a GFE session with DFKing at the front door. I was deeply involved in our local AAMPs. I know that this is how the women were coached to do it.
But AAMPs and Escorts are still not the best way, because the two have never met before. Better to use an SC for the front room fraternizing. This way it can be non-committal and low cost. The woman will still be making something, like sitting tips, but it won't be excessive.
So above Alabegonz talks about two he met, where there was something between he and they right from the start. You can get this from an SC situation, but not as easily from an Escort or Lingere Modelling situation. SC's could be the best, if we can get the focus onto GFE-FS, instead of this "extras" and "mileage" thinking where people treat the dancer like a vending machine instead of a sex partner.
You want her to open up to you, on your lap, getting very face to face, and then making out with you, and doing it in the front room. This is how they do it in the best black FS establishments, and Jestrite50, someone with 96 reviews covering many states, affirms that it is not just in the black establishments.
What I also know from blackstripclubs.net is that in some places they don't even have backrooms at all. After the preliminary makeout, they go to a couch in a darkened corner to take care of business.
I look and see that his two American reviews are from the ESL area. Man, I want to get out there! Front room make out to establish affinity and rapport, and then not even needing to pay VIP fees, that would be fantastic.
So I say we should be looking at what things discourage good GFE-FS, versus what things undermine it. Certainly talk about extras or mileage is completely non-constructive, just the wrong way to look at it.
As far as Portland, what is going on there seems to be mixed. But I certainly don't want to be paying dancers for dry humping, or HJ / BJ, or for extras-FS either.
Not clear to me if you can get good GFE-FS. Will they makeout with you in the front room? I just don't know. Even if some clubs do it in the day time, not clear if they have enough VIP rooms for the night time GFE-FS.
Alabegonz, you reviewed Venom in Tuscon. Very interesting. As I had read, there is one place in Tuscon which draws UNM girls for dancers. Is this Eden? Not sure. They say one club is no touching. Again, Eden? Don't know.
But this Venom, people write that it is $15 for 15 min in private cabana with the girl? You have to pay the bouncer a skip fee? So it could be $60 for 60min or $90 for 90min, and then having to pay her what she wants? That would be as good as AMP pricing!!
Front room friendliness okay? I guess her panties still would have to stay on in the front room as it is only topless. But front room making out and FOV on top of her panties?
Imagine, all the open fraternizing possibilities of and SC, then coupled with the low cost use of a private room's floor like you get in an AMP, that sounds fantastic! I could do one of their dancers per day that way, every day!
I don't know if in Portland anyone is doing it this way, especially in the night time. The reports which come back are mixed. But definitely we should be promoting GFE-FS, and not these extras, mileage, or extras-FS.
I would agree that Portland's strip club scene is healthy right now, it seems like they open a new club every week. What keeps the strip club scene thriving over here is that there is not a lot to do in Portland, so instead of staying in, a lot of people just go to the strip clubs.
1. I don't jump and grab, I would say I'm not following orthodoxy here.
2. Obviously, some customers in PDX SC will get that FS because they can do it.
The type of dancers that land on my lap, the ones that connect to me have a kind of personality that I can relate to. And it just clicks, I can't explain, not easily understood why it happens.
Once that is established, it's just natural that we become close.
I have found from personal experience that many of these girls are very lonely. They feel "thrown to the curb" so to speak. Their BF's have rejected them. Their families have rejected them. They want love but don't know what it is. They get sex confused with love. I try to help these girls by showing them what love really is. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt. When I find one that will work with me I get her attention by handing her a Benny. For no reason just because that gets their attention. Now I can talk. From there I have gotten their digits and showed concern for them paid certain bills for them. (Bought one a car because hers kept breaking down) They appreciate me and I appreciate them. They provide me with a true GFE and I show the love and attention when I'm in town. When I'm in their town they are all mine. Two have even stopped going in to work when I'm in town. They spend all their time with me.
AND THIS ALL STARTED IN THE FRONT ROOM..........by giving them attention caressing , kissing on the neck, DFK, Telling them how beautiful they are, telling them what a good person they are and how nice they are. Then in the back room DATY and more attention paid to them than just trying to get something for nothing. You'll get yours and more than you can handle. You just got to be patient. You just got to make an investment in these girls. I've gotten more attention from some of these girls than I've given them. You just got to work slow and be patient. I have 3 GFE's going now and am in the process of adding a 4th. All in different cities. And the all text me every day wondering when I will be in town. I love the attention and so do they. I have only had to fire one. We were together 2 1/2 years. I wouldn't have even then but she stopped texting me because her mother told her I believe. And her baby daddy started causing problems. So I had to back away. If she would drop the looser baby daddy and want to come back I would take her back in a heart beat.
So I have this rule now. No baby daddys or boyfriends if you want to play on my team.
And we are all having a fun time !
I think the issue here is just how some of these clubs are set up to clip money off of people by selling a fantasy without much delivery. And some dancers have learned to go with this. Some even believe that this improves their earnings.
So here on TUSCL there are all sorts of threads describing situations where a dancer asked the guy to buy a dance, and he went for it, with zero established rapport. What is gotten in such cases will vary wildly. But how could you expect much, because the girl does not know you, not at all.
What is wrong about these situations is that the guy is letting the dancer initiate it, instead of approaching her himself, and instead of trying to develop some rapport with her. And likewise, if you really want to take advantage of the opportunity SC's offer as a venue, then these preliminaries should be able to go all the way to a nice front room make out session. If that can go off, then the chances of phenomenal GFE-FS are as high as they are for any couple anywhere.
So here we read Alabegonz, and he seems to already understand this instinctively, as he picks the girls himself and does develop rapport with them, and sounds to be mostly interested in civilian dating. He actually wants to know them, and I guess he does want them cooking his breakfast in the morning. I go along with this 100%. But it runs completely at odds with so much of what is posted on TUSCL and with the attitudes so many TUSCLers show towards the very dancers they are handing money to, in their posts.
The we read Jestrite and he clearly goes every extra mile to reach out to dancers and to court them and to take them out of their standard P4P envelope. And of course, this pays off in long running outside relationships.
But you would never get any sense of this so long as people are writing about "mileage" and "extras", as this amounts to treating the dancer like a vending machine. It sets up interactions which contribute to sexual frustration and dysfunction. These are bad for both sides.
Unfortunately some of the places I have seen this are San Francisco. They have so many rules that you really can't do much in terms of touching, until you pay for the dance. Once you have done this, it is out of your hands and all up to the dancer. You just have to let her do it. So you can see how from this we get into dry humping, "extras" and even a dissociated "extras" approach to FS.
Alabegonz talked about which dancer ends up in his lap. Well at some of these places the girls are totally prohibited from sitting on your lap until you pay the dance fee and go into the booth. Trying to subvert this, I've pressed money into their hands in the front room. Nothing doing. They aren't going to play. This is why I call the whole setup a clip joint. It is the modern version of the clip joints of old. Sure, if it is what you want and if you are willing to pay for it, a dancer will make you ejaculate. She might even do it using her pussy. But what will not happen is the dancer will not submit to you. For me, this would always leave me feeling like something was missing. I have no interest in paying a female to make me ejaculate. I want much more of her than that.
At some of the clubs, yes she can sit on your lap. But she is going to do it in such a way so as to minimize contact, and definitely to prohibit kissing. Her answer to all of this is that everything has to happen in the booth, and at the full rate.
So what this does is to limit the overall "mileage" and to let the dancer stay totally in control. I have no need to be interacting with women under such conditions, let alone to be paying for it.
It is no good, none of it. The best predictor of good GFE-FS is how much unregulated fraternizing there can be, before the commitment to pay the full cost is made. So this means doing it in the front room. So if you do it this way, then what will happen is most of the people coming in there will hook up with a dancer they like and engage in some preliminaries, and then depart to a VIP Room, or even just to a dark corner, and fuck. Most of the money will go to the dancer, and this is how it should be.
So dancer T has made some posts about "dives". Maybe this is how it is in those places? Maybe not. Maybe it is like this on the day shift only, because then they have enough VIP Rooms? I don't know. I do respect that fact that many people feel it better not to talk openly about all of this.
I am interested in this Venom in Tuscon, only $15 per 15 min to be alone with the girl in a "Cabana"?
I guess Eden or T.D. Showcase is the no touching place where the UAZ girls dance? Probably Eden?
This Casa Diablo, with a written zero touching rule would be fine with me, because I am used to it. You manage the costs by not sitting too much at the stage.
But otherwise, if there is going to be serious money in play, then I want high quality GFE-FS, and front room make out is the best way to get this.
So I don't want to be hearing about what dancers offered, because that means the guy is not taking the lead. I don't want to be hearing about "extras" or "mileage" as that is not GFE-FS. I want to list the things which promote good GFE-FS, versus those which discourage it, and then evaluate the clubs this way.
You know that I am careful about making this too easy to parse by text searching, and so I am careful about using people's full handles on sensitive matters.
Dancer T. wrote:
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=2… "
Dive bars can also be a great place for customers to find unusually high mileage dances at a reasonable price. Even though most expect dive bars to have less attractive dancers, that is not always the case. Sometimes dancers from upscale clubs come into dives for a change of scene for example, the dancers enjoy working a club with very low house fees. Dancers also enjoy the freedom from working with restrictive rules that are common at upscale clubs. For example, touching the dancers at the bar is common, and a typical lap dance is equally unsupervised.
"
This gets to what I am saying, the restrictive rules, rules that exist for no reason except to try and bring more money into the house. They do this by placing unreasonable regulations upon the interactions between dancers and customers. So T. talked about touching at the bar.
Well this gets to what I was saying about San Francisco. Of course a nude club in San Francisco isn't going to have a bar. But at least some try to prevent touching in the main room. Others like Crazy Horse have something which is common, one area for covered lap dances and another for nude lap dances. What this means is that they won't be nude in the main room, and probably that you can't touch in the main room either.
The club introduces this unnecessary structure to increase it's own take, and it convinces the dancers that this is in their interest.
But as T. is telling us, some dancers who have the looks to work in the most upscale clubs prefer these dives because they are more fun to work in, and also because they can make even more money. When a dancer can engage with physical friendliness, she will get more dances, and also get more front room tips. When she can be physically friendly, she does not have to worry whether or not the guy will believe her when she talks about what she will do in the VIP Room, as she is already demonstrating her demeanor and capabilities.
So this is what we should look for and expect.
Otherwise, I would rather stay with no touching as it is cheaper and leads to less frustration and less of a feeling of being taken by a clip joint. Someone who can only get sex by letting themselves be taken by a clip joint really is a pathetic looser.
What T. is saying about dives and earlier in this thread sounds to me like an AMP. It takes about 3 girls min to keep the stage list going with two song sets. This leaves them very little time for private dances.
But some of these places don't even have 3 girls on the day shift. So if you walk in there, it must be like walking into an AMP where they know you. As one Viet hottie said to me, "May I *Take Care* of you?"
At these dives it wouldn't even feel like you are walking into a strip club. Rather, the girl(s) will be taking care of their regulars, and probably vectoring some more in with the cell phone. If you are a first timer, then they will probably go and see if there is something they can do for you. Otherwise you just sit and listen to the music, as there are no girls available for the stage.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they have this in some places, these "dives". I think it just shows, that just like with AMPs, there is only so much political will to try and stop it. Once the practice involves enough people, it becomes unstoppable.
But then I also want to ask, is it also like this on the night shift? Then there are probably too many dancers relative to the number of available VIP rooms for it to be that way, just like an AMP. So I don't know how it goes.
But also, an SC has possibilities that an AMP does not. At AMPs how well the session goes, how GFE it is, how mind blowing it is, depends on how you select the girl and on how you can court her.
If they show you the girls in sequence, that is the worst, because you have to insult each of the ones you turn down, and some of this still rubs off on the one you select. Being shown them all at once, like in a Nevada style line up, is okay, just okay. See the girl will still be wondering why you selected her and it might be just because of her big tits or something like that.
The best AMP sessions I have had were always because somehow I was able to get outside of their selection process, and pick a girl independent of that. Once in San Francisco it was because they had this viewing port in the front door, and this girl was showing off her extreme eye make up to me through the viewing port. She was supposedly not even available, just taking care of the door. I had to make a point insisting on her and I had to wait in a room for about 30min till she was free. Then what happened was mind blowing and has never been forgotten.
Another time in Sunnyvale, I was thinking about going in, but not sure, not sure if I had the money or if I should go and get it. Then I saw this one by the side of the building with her shoes off and with a bucket. It looked like she was washing her feet.
So I went in and asked for her. I had to be shown a whole bunch of girls which I declined, till they finally found her. Turns out she was washing her car. So what ensued was this intense makeout session and then mind blowing FS.
For a dozen years afterwards there was among the local AMPs this legend of me and this Donna / Monique in the purple dress, who was out washing her car.
Other times in trying to set such things up, I have just window shopped, cruised, with no money. If I see one I like I get her name and then go and get the money and come back. It makes a big difference, because she can see that I really like her.
Okay, now with SC's none of this should be necessary. You should just be able to lay back and watch them and tip some. In SC's I have learned to talk to strippers, thank you. I get on well with them, that is, so long as they aren't just hustling these booth dances which amount to nothing ( dry humping, "extras" even "extras"-FS ). So long as we can just talk it is fine. Now on the other hand, if we can talk and also start getting physically friendly, like with kissing and petting, then we will really get on well, and the FS which follows will be phenomenal.
I think it is issues like this which dancer T. was getting at when she talked about dancers from the upscale clubs coming to dives for "freedom from restrictive rules". Without those rules, designed to make money for the house, a dancer can do with a customer whatever she wants and how she wants. She can get uncut front room tips, plus the VIP session money. And when she can be flexible, she will get more VIP sessions.
So then an SC can be far better than an AMP because of the more open selection process. They can be better if we don't let corporations run them which add all sorts of unnecessary structure, as many of the places in San Francisco seem to have.
So these are the things I want to talk about, taking advantage of the possibilities of SC's, even above and beyond AMPs, to deliver mind blowing GFE-FS. Look at what enhances GFE-FS versus what degrades it to "extras"-FS.
But on TUSCL I am always flabbergasted by the people who talk like it is the dancer's job to make you cum, and about how they don't even want to take the time to talk to dancers, and about how they can "nut in a dancer's mouth" and be in and out in 15min.
When I see the extreme hotties at some of the SF clubs, that is the least I want to do with them. I am certainly not going to pay nice money just for them to make me cum. I want full satisfaction, including female surrender. To get this there needs to be a bit of a courtship, and the place has to be set up to allow it, not just to extract money for the house.
Yes, in Tuscon, Eden is the one near UAZ. It is nude and I guess it has no alcohol, and it is 18 and over. It draws students. It is pricey.
Someone talked about one Tuscon place being strict no touching. This is probably it.
Even though nude, the "mileage" is less.
The others are considered dives, the type I like. So someone reviewed one where I am told that their private rooms are just $15 for 15min. I like that.
They don't call them VIP Rooms, they call them Cabanas. I like that two. I am going to adopt that term universally. VIP Room is like in regular night clubs. It suggests conspicuous spending and an experience which is mostly about alcohol. Cabana suggests just privacy, comfort, and simplicity. I want to be at this place with these low cost rooms.
Here I talk about some of the sex crazed massage girls in San Francisco, read about on Rub Maps. We should be able to get a better selection process and front room courtship in SC's. It works so long as there are not too many rules, and so long as they are not peddling expensive bull shit ejaculation dances.
I was in a club this past Thursday night with a beautiful strawberry blond named Amber. We talked a little at the bar then headed back to a semi private dance area lined with very comfortable leather couches. We spent about 10 minutes making out on the couch before she started the dances. After 5 songs we spent another 10 to 15 minutes making out and made plans for me to email her the next time I'm in town and we would go to lunch or dinner and then to her place or my hotel for some fun stuff. Showing attention to the right girls works every time !
19 comments
Latest
http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-22…
However if you are a regular horny man in Portland who wants an extremely high mileage lap dance for $20/song come to Pitiful Princess at SE Division and 122nd read tuscl reviews for more info.
g
IMO, there's a club for every taste in PDX, but doubtful on mileage let alone 'extremely high.' You would thing that all the competition would make fore good mileage, but the clubs I went to weren't anything special for mileage. Maybe there's a big difference for regulars, IDK.
You can thank Portland's scene to the very "hipsters" you denounce.
I was just discussing this Casa Diablo with someone who posted a review. They insist that everyone who sits at the stage has to tip $2 per song, and that there is never to be any touching.
This reminds me of how it is in Sunnyvale. The want some minimum tipping level. They actually do a tips round through the entire house. They do this, because the dancers aren't allowed to try and make money any other way. So if they are to work there, they need this. So this Casa Diablo would seem to want to go back to an older model for SC's.
I believe that hipsters would like this sort of thing. I follow the link to the newspaper guide. Only maybe one of the places do I recognize as one the extreme mileage dancers talk about.
Hipsters are not mongers. They are more into looking cool, into believing that they have some kind of inside track. Sometimes they even bring their girl friends to SC's. Pretty stupid if you ask me. Maybe they think the girl will become more stripper like, for them. Not likely.
about how Hipsters destroyed Chicago's Wicker Park Neighborhood:
http://www.amazon.com/Conquest-Cool-Busi…
In Portland dancers are able to represent themselves, and some go way beyond what any SC owner could ever countenance. Once the girl can represent herself and it is possible to contact her, then she is potentially your escort.
With some of these Portland places, I wonder if the "mileage" goes as high in the night time as it does in the day time. In the day time they have just a minimum of dancers, and so they have enough VIP rooms. But at night time they have more dancers, and so I wonder if it's more back to the booths and dry humping and "extras" and all the usual expensive nonsense and perversion, instead of FS.
I know of a place in Louisiana which boosts 6 VIP rooms!
I know of a place in Portland which seems to be half way in between an SC and a Lingerie Modeling / Adult Entertainment place. They have a stage and a pole, but it is too small to be a real SC. I have read that they try to pair you up with a girl right away, along with getting a big chunk of money out of you right off. But there is also evidence to suggest that they could be offering MSOG.
You don't know what you are getting if it is done this way, quickly pairing you up with a girl. No low cost non-committal fraternizing, like you can get in an SC. No chance to flirt with the girl and then to court her.
Someone has written about how open in their body posture and communications style the girls are when they first approach you. Well yes, usually young women are not this way, especially if beautiful and scantily clad. So probably this means FS. Probably the person who wrote the review is the one who coaches the girls to do it this way.
But unless you can court the girl some, which is the potential strength of an SC, then you don't really know what to expect when they separate you from your money. If I can court the girl, then I can see if there is some rapport and some mutual respect. But without this, it could be she just sees me as another PL, and she is having to do a tough job which requires maintaining her emotional barriers.
So in my mind at this time, Portland is still a very mixed situation. As you can see, I am reluctant to name specific clubs when it comes to mongering issues. But I still hope more information can be communicated and that there can be a clearer understanding of the issues conveyed on TUSCL.
Jestrite50 explains in clear language how to set up a great SC encounter, and I agree with him completely. This is why SC's have the potential to be better than AMPs, AAMPs, Escorts, Lingerie Modeling, and Adult Entertainment venues:
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…
Discussion about AMPs
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…
SJG
Scorpions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwyXnft6Z…
In fact, if the dancer is showing high degree of engagement she is definitely communicating in that regard very strongly and that should get my gears shifting higher as well.
Same like my CF who propositioned to me in the first five minutes of our meeting. Looking at her face I knew she was serious and would like to get me away from the other dancer I'm seeing there for the night. She was so quick to pounce on me and she got me in the end. And as of today, she still has me.
Same like the Tall dancer I met in the SC, she was following the club rules and would not want to get fired, so she had to get my digits and it all started from there. She literally sent me so many texts about her true intentions, she is like my CF who just went for it and won me.
You just had to accept the fact that that was all you could do, and that to get to see a dancer outside you would have to jump through some hoops. Most of them did not do OTC back then, and besides that was not what I was looking for. So the dancers had to be guarded about outside contact, though of course they were not completely guarded. You just had to jump through some hoops.
But visiting these places was cheap. You could talk for little or no money. Sometimes the talk could go quite far. Sometimes you could get a girl partaking of a most graphic conversation, and that will effect her. It is almost like having gotten her to consent to FS right then and there.
But then San Francisco and other places started going to booths and back rooms, and so the cost sky rocketed. Even though where I live they remain constrained by zero touching rules, they still have these pricey private air dances, where the girl has to stay on a raised stage. $20, $40. It is a joke. They have this just to try and keep the girls happy, to give them some way to make money. It is better just to press the money into her hand, and have her sit with you and keep talking.
Now in other places they do "extras". I've never really gone along with this concept. I have no interest in paying a dancer to make me ejaculate. I think that is silly.
I mean once in a great while, with a girl I am in an ongoing sexual relationship with. Or maybe when both parties understand that FS will be happening soon, then just for today I will put on a show for her by letting her watch what happens when I cum, making it all a rehearsal for FS.
But otherwise I don't like the idea. I think this "extras" model, with its focus on quick ejaculation and very little in the way of female surrender, contributes to sexual frustration and dysfunction. I don't like it.
I also don't like the fact that in many clubs they are doing FS, but again, they are doing it with no female surrender. Instead they do it by dissociation. I call this extras-FS. The dancers don't even seem to consider it as sex.
Alabegonz got it exactly right here:
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…
So at this point I say that we should not be talking about "mileage" or "extras" as that only contributes to a problem, expensive SC's which do nothing but cause sexual frustration and dysfunction.
Looking and talking is fine. But what we should really be promoting is very civilian like FS, I mean GFE-FS, the kind where the female surrenders her emotional defenses. For her to do this for the first time with a particular guy is a big deal. She has to be able to come to like him, and she needs some time to let this happen.
Good escorts can start a GFE session with DFKing at the front door. I was deeply involved in our local AAMPs. I know that this is how the women were coached to do it.
But AAMPs and Escorts are still not the best way, because the two have never met before. Better to use an SC for the front room fraternizing. This way it can be non-committal and low cost. The woman will still be making something, like sitting tips, but it won't be excessive.
So above Alabegonz talks about two he met, where there was something between he and they right from the start. You can get this from an SC situation, but not as easily from an Escort or Lingere Modelling situation. SC's could be the best, if we can get the focus onto GFE-FS, instead of this "extras" and "mileage" thinking where people treat the dancer like a vending machine instead of a sex partner.
So here, Jestrite50 explained exactly how it needs to be, and how he gets it:
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…
You want her to open up to you, on your lap, getting very face to face, and then making out with you, and doing it in the front room. This is how they do it in the best black FS establishments, and Jestrite50, someone with 96 reviews covering many states, affirms that it is not just in the black establishments.
What I also know from blackstripclubs.net is that in some places they don't even have backrooms at all. After the preliminary makeout, they go to a couch in a darkened corner to take care of business.
Here bkkruined speaks of exactly this sort of experience:
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…
I look and see that his two American reviews are from the ESL area. Man, I want to get out there! Front room make out to establish affinity and rapport, and then not even needing to pay VIP fees, that would be fantastic.
So I say we should be looking at what things discourage good GFE-FS, versus what things undermine it. Certainly talk about extras or mileage is completely non-constructive, just the wrong way to look at it.
As far as Portland, what is going on there seems to be mixed. But I certainly don't want to be paying dancers for dry humping, or HJ / BJ, or for extras-FS either.
Not clear to me if you can get good GFE-FS. Will they makeout with you in the front room? I just don't know. Even if some clubs do it in the day time, not clear if they have enough VIP rooms for the night time GFE-FS.
Alabegonz, you reviewed Venom in Tuscon. Very interesting. As I had read, there is one place in Tuscon which draws UNM girls for dancers. Is this Eden? Not sure. They say one club is no touching. Again, Eden? Don't know.
But this Venom, people write that it is $15 for 15 min in private cabana with the girl? You have to pay the bouncer a skip fee? So it could be $60 for 60min or $90 for 90min, and then having to pay her what she wants? That would be as good as AMP pricing!!
Front room friendliness okay? I guess her panties still would have to stay on in the front room as it is only topless. But front room making out and FOV on top of her panties?
Imagine, all the open fraternizing possibilities of and SC, then coupled with the low cost use of a private room's floor like you get in an AMP, that sounds fantastic! I could do one of their dancers per day that way, every day!
I don't know if in Portland anyone is doing it this way, especially in the night time. The reports which come back are mixed. But definitely we should be promoting GFE-FS, and not these extras, mileage, or extras-FS.
SJG
Fool for Your Loving
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwHwmbL91…
Meryland
Ma02
They're Coming to Take Me Away Haha!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-lJZiqZ…
1. I don't jump and grab, I would say I'm not following orthodoxy here.
2. Obviously, some customers in PDX SC will get that FS because they can do it.
The type of dancers that land on my lap, the ones that connect to me have a kind of personality that I can relate to. And it just clicks, I can't explain, not easily understood why it happens.
Once that is established, it's just natural that we become close.
AND THIS ALL STARTED IN THE FRONT ROOM..........by giving them attention caressing , kissing on the neck, DFK, Telling them how beautiful they are, telling them what a good person they are and how nice they are. Then in the back room DATY and more attention paid to them than just trying to get something for nothing. You'll get yours and more than you can handle. You just got to be patient. You just got to make an investment in these girls. I've gotten more attention from some of these girls than I've given them. You just got to work slow and be patient. I have 3 GFE's going now and am in the process of adding a 4th. All in different cities. And the all text me every day wondering when I will be in town. I love the attention and so do they. I have only had to fire one. We were together 2 1/2 years. I wouldn't have even then but she stopped texting me because her mother told her I believe. And her baby daddy started causing problems. So I had to back away. If she would drop the looser baby daddy and want to come back I would take her back in a heart beat.
So I have this rule now. No baby daddys or boyfriends if you want to play on my team.
And we are all having a fun time !
So here on TUSCL there are all sorts of threads describing situations where a dancer asked the guy to buy a dance, and he went for it, with zero established rapport. What is gotten in such cases will vary wildly. But how could you expect much, because the girl does not know you, not at all.
What is wrong about these situations is that the guy is letting the dancer initiate it, instead of approaching her himself, and instead of trying to develop some rapport with her. And likewise, if you really want to take advantage of the opportunity SC's offer as a venue, then these preliminaries should be able to go all the way to a nice front room make out session. If that can go off, then the chances of phenomenal GFE-FS are as high as they are for any couple anywhere.
So here we read Alabegonz, and he seems to already understand this instinctively, as he picks the girls himself and does develop rapport with them, and sounds to be mostly interested in civilian dating. He actually wants to know them, and I guess he does want them cooking his breakfast in the morning. I go along with this 100%. But it runs completely at odds with so much of what is posted on TUSCL and with the attitudes so many TUSCLers show towards the very dancers they are handing money to, in their posts.
The we read Jestrite and he clearly goes every extra mile to reach out to dancers and to court them and to take them out of their standard P4P envelope. And of course, this pays off in long running outside relationships.
But you would never get any sense of this so long as people are writing about "mileage" and "extras", as this amounts to treating the dancer like a vending machine. It sets up interactions which contribute to sexual frustration and dysfunction. These are bad for both sides.
Unfortunately some of the places I have seen this are San Francisco. They have so many rules that you really can't do much in terms of touching, until you pay for the dance. Once you have done this, it is out of your hands and all up to the dancer. You just have to let her do it. So you can see how from this we get into dry humping, "extras" and even a dissociated "extras" approach to FS.
Alabegonz talked about which dancer ends up in his lap. Well at some of these places the girls are totally prohibited from sitting on your lap until you pay the dance fee and go into the booth. Trying to subvert this, I've pressed money into their hands in the front room. Nothing doing. They aren't going to play. This is why I call the whole setup a clip joint. It is the modern version of the clip joints of old. Sure, if it is what you want and if you are willing to pay for it, a dancer will make you ejaculate. She might even do it using her pussy. But what will not happen is the dancer will not submit to you. For me, this would always leave me feeling like something was missing. I have no interest in paying a female to make me ejaculate. I want much more of her than that.
At some of the clubs, yes she can sit on your lap. But she is going to do it in such a way so as to minimize contact, and definitely to prohibit kissing. Her answer to all of this is that everything has to happen in the booth, and at the full rate.
So what this does is to limit the overall "mileage" and to let the dancer stay totally in control. I have no need to be interacting with women under such conditions, let alone to be paying for it.
It is no good, none of it. The best predictor of good GFE-FS is how much unregulated fraternizing there can be, before the commitment to pay the full cost is made. So this means doing it in the front room. So if you do it this way, then what will happen is most of the people coming in there will hook up with a dancer they like and engage in some preliminaries, and then depart to a VIP Room, or even just to a dark corner, and fuck. Most of the money will go to the dancer, and this is how it should be.
So dancer T has made some posts about "dives". Maybe this is how it is in those places? Maybe not. Maybe it is like this on the day shift only, because then they have enough VIP Rooms? I don't know. I do respect that fact that many people feel it better not to talk openly about all of this.
I am interested in this Venom in Tuscon, only $15 per 15 min to be alone with the girl in a "Cabana"?
I guess Eden or T.D. Showcase is the no touching place where the UAZ girls dance? Probably Eden?
This Casa Diablo, with a written zero touching rule would be fine with me, because I am used to it. You manage the costs by not sitting too much at the stage.
But otherwise, if there is going to be serious money in play, then I want high quality GFE-FS, and front room make out is the best way to get this.
So I don't want to be hearing about what dancers offered, because that means the guy is not taking the lead. I don't want to be hearing about "extras" or "mileage" as that is not GFE-FS. I want to list the things which promote good GFE-FS, versus those which discourage it, and then evaluate the clubs this way.
SJG
Clapton, full concert
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff8lz0z9…
"They get sex confused with love. I try to help these girls by showing them what love really is. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt."
Interesting I find that same sentiment true for me.
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=2…
You know that I am careful about making this too easy to parse by text searching, and so I am careful about using people's full handles on sensitive matters.
Dancer T. wrote:
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=2…
"
Dive bars can also be a great place for customers to find unusually high mileage dances at a reasonable price. Even though most expect dive bars to have less attractive dancers, that is not always the case. Sometimes dancers from upscale clubs come into dives for a change of scene for example, the dancers enjoy working a club with very low house fees. Dancers also enjoy the freedom from working with restrictive rules that are common at upscale clubs. For example, touching the dancers at the bar is common, and a typical lap dance is equally unsupervised.
"
This gets to what I am saying, the restrictive rules, rules that exist for no reason except to try and bring more money into the house. They do this by placing unreasonable regulations upon the interactions between dancers and customers. So T. talked about touching at the bar.
Well this gets to what I was saying about San Francisco. Of course a nude club in San Francisco isn't going to have a bar. But at least some try to prevent touching in the main room. Others like Crazy Horse have something which is common, one area for covered lap dances and another for nude lap dances. What this means is that they won't be nude in the main room, and probably that you can't touch in the main room either.
The club introduces this unnecessary structure to increase it's own take, and it convinces the dancers that this is in their interest.
But as T. is telling us, some dancers who have the looks to work in the most upscale clubs prefer these dives because they are more fun to work in, and also because they can make even more money. When a dancer can engage with physical friendliness, she will get more dances, and also get more front room tips. When she can be physically friendly, she does not have to worry whether or not the guy will believe her when she talks about what she will do in the VIP Room, as she is already demonstrating her demeanor and capabilities.
So this is what we should look for and expect.
Otherwise, I would rather stay with no touching as it is cheaper and leads to less frustration and less of a feeling of being taken by a clip joint. Someone who can only get sex by letting themselves be taken by a clip joint really is a pathetic looser.
What T. is saying about dives and earlier in this thread sounds to me like an AMP. It takes about 3 girls min to keep the stage list going with two song sets. This leaves them very little time for private dances.
But some of these places don't even have 3 girls on the day shift. So if you walk in there, it must be like walking into an AMP where they know you. As one Viet hottie said to me, "May I *Take Care* of you?"
At these dives it wouldn't even feel like you are walking into a strip club. Rather, the girl(s) will be taking care of their regulars, and probably vectoring some more in with the cell phone. If you are a first timer, then they will probably go and see if there is something they can do for you. Otherwise you just sit and listen to the music, as there are no girls available for the stage.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they have this in some places, these "dives". I think it just shows, that just like with AMPs, there is only so much political will to try and stop it. Once the practice involves enough people, it becomes unstoppable.
But then I also want to ask, is it also like this on the night shift? Then there are probably too many dancers relative to the number of available VIP rooms for it to be that way, just like an AMP. So I don't know how it goes.
But also, an SC has possibilities that an AMP does not. At AMPs how well the session goes, how GFE it is, how mind blowing it is, depends on how you select the girl and on how you can court her.
If they show you the girls in sequence, that is the worst, because you have to insult each of the ones you turn down, and some of this still rubs off on the one you select. Being shown them all at once, like in a Nevada style line up, is okay, just okay. See the girl will still be wondering why you selected her and it might be just because of her big tits or something like that.
The best AMP sessions I have had were always because somehow I was able to get outside of their selection process, and pick a girl independent of that. Once in San Francisco it was because they had this viewing port in the front door, and this girl was showing off her extreme eye make up to me through the viewing port. She was supposedly not even available, just taking care of the door. I had to make a point insisting on her and I had to wait in a room for about 30min till she was free. Then what happened was mind blowing and has never been forgotten.
Another time in Sunnyvale, I was thinking about going in, but not sure, not sure if I had the money or if I should go and get it. Then I saw this one by the side of the building with her shoes off and with a bucket. It looked like she was washing her feet.
So I went in and asked for her. I had to be shown a whole bunch of girls which I declined, till they finally found her. Turns out she was washing her car. So what ensued was this intense makeout session and then mind blowing FS.
For a dozen years afterwards there was among the local AMPs this legend of me and this Donna / Monique in the purple dress, who was out washing her car.
Other times in trying to set such things up, I have just window shopped, cruised, with no money. If I see one I like I get her name and then go and get the money and come back. It makes a big difference, because she can see that I really like her.
Okay, now with SC's none of this should be necessary. You should just be able to lay back and watch them and tip some. In SC's I have learned to talk to strippers, thank you. I get on well with them, that is, so long as they aren't just hustling these booth dances which amount to nothing ( dry humping, "extras" even "extras"-FS ). So long as we can just talk it is fine. Now on the other hand, if we can talk and also start getting physically friendly, like with kissing and petting, then we will really get on well, and the FS which follows will be phenomenal.
I think it is issues like this which dancer T. was getting at when she talked about dancers from the upscale clubs coming to dives for "freedom from restrictive rules". Without those rules, designed to make money for the house, a dancer can do with a customer whatever she wants and how she wants. She can get uncut front room tips, plus the VIP session money. And when she can be flexible, she will get more VIP sessions.
So then an SC can be far better than an AMP because of the more open selection process. They can be better if we don't let corporations run them which add all sorts of unnecessary structure, as many of the places in San Francisco seem to have.
So these are the things I want to talk about, taking advantage of the possibilities of SC's, even above and beyond AMPs, to deliver mind blowing GFE-FS. Look at what enhances GFE-FS versus what degrades it to "extras"-FS.
But on TUSCL I am always flabbergasted by the people who talk like it is the dancer's job to make you cum, and about how they don't even want to take the time to talk to dancers, and about how they can "nut in a dancer's mouth" and be in and out in 15min.
When I see the extreme hotties at some of the SF clubs, that is the least I want to do with them. I am certainly not going to pay nice money just for them to make me cum. I want full satisfaction, including female surrender. To get this there needs to be a bit of a courtship, and the place has to be set up to allow it, not just to extract money for the house.
SJG
The Knack, My Sharona
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1T71PGd-…
Someone talked about one Tuscon place being strict no touching. This is probably it.
Even though nude, the "mileage" is less.
The others are considered dives, the type I like. So someone reviewed one where I am told that their private rooms are just $15 for 15min. I like that.
They don't call them VIP Rooms, they call them Cabanas. I like that two. I am going to adopt that term universally. VIP Room is like in regular night clubs. It suggests conspicuous spending and an experience which is mostly about alcohol. Cabana suggests just privacy, comfort, and simplicity. I want to be at this place with these low cost rooms.
Here I talk about some of the sex crazed massage girls in San Francisco, read about on Rub Maps. We should be able to get a better selection process and front room courtship in SC's. It works so long as there are not too many rules, and so long as they are not peddling expensive bull shit ejaculation dances.
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…
SJG
Super Heavy - Beautiful People
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOEcE8aQx…