Words to consider

The Myth of
the Separation of Church and State

When religion is mentioned within the confines of government today many people cry, "Separation of Church and State". Many people think this statement appears in the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution and therefore must be strictly enforced. However, the words: "separation", "church", and "state" do not even appear in the first amendment. The first amendment reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." The statement about a wall of separation between church and state was made in a letter on January 1, 1802, by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut. The congregation heard a widespread rumor that the Congregationalists, another denomination, were to become the national religion. This was very alarming to people who knew about religious persecution in England by the state established church. Jefferson made it clear in his letter to the Danbury Congregation that the separation was to be that government would not establish a national religion or dictate to men how to worship God. Jefferson's letter from which the phrase "separation of church and state" was taken affirmed first amendment rights. Jefferson wrote:

I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. (1)
The reason Jefferson choose the expression "separation of church and state" was because he was addressing a Baptist congregation; a denomination of which he was not a member. Jefferson wanted to remove all fears that the state would make dictates to the church. He was establishing common ground with the Baptists by borrowing the words of Roger Williams, one of the Baptist's own prominent preachers. Williams had said:
When they have opened a gap in the hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the Church and the wilderness of the world, God hath ever broke down the wall itself, removed the candlestick, and made his garden a wilderness, as at this day. And that there fore if He will eer please to restore His garden and paradise again, it must of necessity be walled in peculiarly unto Himself from the world...(2)

The "wall" was understood as one-directional; its purpose was to protect the church from the state. The world was not to corrupt the church, yet the church was free to teach the people Biblical values.

The American people knew what would happen if the State established the Church like in England. Even though it was not recent history to them, they knew that England went so far as forbidding worship in private homes and sponsoring all church activities and keeping people under strict dictates. They were forced to go to the state established church and do things that were contrary to their conscience. No other churches were allowed, and mandatory attendance of the established church was compelled under the Conventicle Act of 1665. Failure to comply would result in imprisonment and torture. The people did not want freedom from religion, but freedom of religion. The only real reason to separate the church from the state would be to instill a new morality and establish a new system of beliefs. Our founding fathers were God-fearing men who understood that for a country to stand it must have a solid foundation; the Bible was the source of this foundation. They believed that God's ways were much higher than Man's ways and held firmly that the Bible was the absolute standard of truth and used the Bible as a source to form our government.

There is no such thing as a pluralistic society. There will always be one dominant view, otherwise it will be in transition from one belief system to another. Therefore, to say Biblical principles should not be allowed in government and school is to either be ignorant of the historic intent of the founding fathers, or blatantly bigoted against Christianity.

Each form of government has a guiding principle: monarchy in which the guiding principle is honor; aristocracy in which the guiding principle is moderation; republican democracy in which the guiding principle is virtue; despotism in which the guiding principle is fear. Without people of the United States upholding good moral conduct, society soon degenerates into a corrupt system where people misuse the authority of government to obtain what they want at the expense of others. The U.S. Constitution is the form of our government, but the power is in the virtue of the people. The virtue desired of the people is shown in the Bible. This is why Biblical morality was taught in public schools until the early 1960's. Government officials were required to declare their belief in God even to be allowed to hold a public office until a case in the U.S. Supreme Court called Torcaso v. Watkins (Oct. 1960). God was seen as the author of natural law and morality. If one did not believe in God one could not operate from a proper moral base. And by not having a foundation from which to work, one would destroy the community. The two primary places where morality is taught are the family and the church. The church was allowed to influence the government in righteousness an d justice so that virtue would be upheld. Not allowing the church to influence the state is detrimental to the country and destroys our foundation of righteousness and justice. It is absolutely necessary for the church to influence the state in virtue because without virtue our government will crumble -- the representatives will look after their own good instead of the country's.

Government was never meant to be our master as in a ruthless monarchy or dictatorship. Instead, it was to be our servant. The founding fathers believed that the people have full power to govern themselves and that people chose to give up some of their rights for the general good and the protection of rights. Each person should be self-governed and this is why virtue is so important. Government was meant to serve the people by protecting their liberty and rights, not serve by an enormous amount of social programs. The authors of the Constitution wanted the government to have as little power as possible so that if authority was misused it would not cause as much damage. Yet they wanted government to have enough authority to protect the rights of the people. The worldview at the time of the founding of our government was a view held by the Bible: that Man's heart is corrupt and if the opportunity to advance oneself at the expense of another arose, more often than not, we would choose to do so. They firmly believed this and that's why an enormous effort to set up checks and balances took place. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. They wanted to make certain that no man could take away rights given by God. They also did not set up the government as a true democracy, because they believed, as mentioned earlier, Man tends towards wickedness. Just because the majority wants something does not mean that it should be granted, because the majority could easily err. Government was not to be run by whatever the majority wanted but instead by principle, specifically the principles of the Bible.

Our U.S. Constitution was founded on Biblical principles and it was the intention of the authors for this to be a Christian nation. The Constitution had 55 people work upon it, of which 52 were evangelical Christians.(3) We can go back in history and look at what the founding fathers wrote to know where they were getting their ideas. This is exactly what two professors did. Donald Lutz and Charles Hyneman reviewed an estimated 15,000 items with explicit political content printed between 1760 and 1805 and from these items they identified 3,154 references to other sources. The source they most often quoted was the Bible, accounting for 34% of all citations. Sixty percent of all quotes came from men who used the Bible to form their conclusions. That means that 94% of all quotes by the founding fathers were based on the Bible. The founding fathers took ideas from the Bible and incorporated them into our government. If it was their intention to separate the state and church they would never have taken principles from the Bible and put them into our government. An example of an idea taken from the Bible and then incorporated into our government is found in Isaiah 33:22 which says, "For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is our lawgiver, the Lord is our king..." The founding fathers took this scripture and made three major branches in our government: judicial, legislative, and executive. As mentioned earlier, the founding fathers strongly believed that Man was by nature corrupt and therefore it was necessary to separate the powers of the government. For instance, the President has the power to execute laws but not make them, and Congress has the power to make laws but not to judge the people. The simple principle of checks and balances came from the Bible to protect people from tyranny. The President of the United States is free to influence Congress, although he can not exercise authority over it because they are separated. Since this is true, why should the church not be allowed to influence the state? People have read too much into the phrase "separation of church and state", which is to be a separation of civil authority from ecclesiastical authority, not moral values. Congress has passed laws that it is illegal to murder and steal, which is the legislation of morality. These standards of morality are found in the Bible. Should we remove them from law because the church should be separated from the state?

Our founding fathers who formed the government also formed the educational system of the day. John Witherspoon did not attend the Constitutional Convention although he was President of New Jersey College in 1768 (known as Princeton since 1896) and a signer of the Declaration of Independence. His influence on the Constitution was far ranging in that he taught nine of fifty-five original delegates. He fought firmly for religious freedom and said, "God grant that in America true religion and civil liberty may be inseparable and that unjust attempts to destroy the one may in the issue tend to the support and establishment of both."(4)

In October 1961 the Supreme Court of the United States removed prayer from schools in a case called Engel v. Vitale. The case said that because the U.S. Constitution prohibits any law respecting an establishment of religion officials of public schools may not compose public prayer even if the prayer is denominationally neutral, and that pupils may choose to remain silent or be excused while the prayer is being recited. For 185 years prayer was allowed in public and the Constitutional Convention itself was opened with prayer. If the founding fathers didn't want prayer in government why did they pray publicly in official meetings? It is sometimes said that it is permissible to pray in school as long as it is silent. Although, "In Omaha, Nebraska, 10-year old James Gierke was prohibited from reading his Bible silently during free time... the boy was forbidden by his teacher to open his Bible at school and was told doing so was against the law."(4) The U.S. Supreme Court with no precedent in any court history said prayer will be removed from school. Yet the Supreme Court in January, 1844 in a case named Vidal v. Girard's Executors, a school was to be built in which no ecclesiastic, missionary, or minister of any sect whatsoever was to be allowed to even step on the property of the school. They argued over whether a layman could teach or not, but they agreed that, "...there is an obligation to teach what the Bible alone can teach, viz. a pure system of morality." This has been the precedent throughout 185 years. Although this case is from 1844, it illustrates the point. The prayer in question was not even lengthy or denominationally geared. It was this: "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country." What price have we paid by removing this simple acknowledgment of God's protecting hand in our lives? Birth rates for unwed girls from 15-19; sexually transmitted diseases among 10-14 year olds; pre-marital sex increased; violent crime; adolescent homicide have all gone up considerably from 1961 to the 1990's -- even after taking into account population growth. The Bible, before 1961, was used extensively in curriculum. After the Bible was removed, scholastic aptitude test scores dropped considerably.

There is no such thing as a pluralistic society; there will always be one dominant view. Someone's morality is going to be taught -- but whose? Secular Humanism is a religion that teaches that through Man's ability we will reach universal peace and unity and make heaven on earth. They promote a way of life that systematically excludes God and all religion in the traditional sense. That Man is the highest point to which nature has evolved, and he can rely on only himself and that the universe was not created, but instead is self-existing. They believe that Man has the potential to be good in and of himself. All of this of course is in direct conflict with not only the teachings of the Bible but even the lessons of history. In June 1961 in a case called Torcaso v. Watkins, the U.S. Supreme Court stated, "Among religions in this country which do not teach what would generally be considered a belief in the existence of God are Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism and others." The Supreme Court declared Secular Humanism to be a religion. The American Humanist Association certifies counselors who enjoy the same legal status as ordained ministers. Since the Supreme Court has said that Secular Humanism is a religion, why is it being allowed to be taught in schools? The removal of public prayer of those who wish to participate is, in effect, establishing the religion of Humanism over Christianity. This is exactly what our founding fathers tried to stop from happening with the first amendment.

1. Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Writings, Merrill D. Peterson, ed. (NY: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), p. 510, January 1, 1802.

2. John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution (MI: Baker Book House, 1987), p. 243.

3. M.E. Bradford, A Worthy Company: Brief Lives of the Framers of the United States Constitution (Marlborough, N.H.: Plymouth Rock Foundation, 1982), p. 4-5.

4. John Witherspoon, "Sermon on the Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men" May 17, 1776; quoted and Cited by Collins, President Witherspoon, I:197-98.

49 comments

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  • TopGunGlen
    19 years ago
    All I want to do is have a good time, not hurt anybody, and most of all; Not have some asshole tell me I can't because they say it's wrong. And most of the assholes are doing bad things the rest of us never would. Fuck 'em...
  • casualguy
    19 years ago
    I actually looked at some Libertarians and their positions during the last election I believe. Maybe I'm too mainstream or some of their views are too far out there for me. I will be keeping an eye out though. I agree we need less government, not more. I don't really like taxing all the middle class to death to pay for a big government. I feel more threatened by our government than from most people. I have yet to see someone rob someone at gunpoint but I see police pulling people off the road all the time and taking money (via tickets) and threatening them with court orders etc. if they don't comply. I see the IRS requiring everyone to pay up or else off to jail they go. I keep hearing of this new law and that new law you have to follow now. It seems to be a never ending story.
  • FONDL
    19 years ago
    Casualguy, in your first paragraph you're talking about zoning laws. Such laws are a real mixed blessing. We like them when they keep a hog farm or dump from opening up next door to us. But we hate them when they have an impact that we don't like such as you've described. If I was in charge I'd eliminate them all, hog farm be damned, because they are one of the biggest limits on personal freedoms in our country.

    My favorite quote from our founding fathers is, "The best government is that which governs least," or something like that. I think that was Thomas Jefferson who was considered to be the leading liberal of his day. Which shows how the definition of "liberal" has changed. Which I think is the saddest thing of all. The only true liberals in our society today are the Libertarians. Anyone else who calls himself a liberal is lying.
  • casualguy
    19 years ago
    Fondl, I'm mainly referring to what I believe was imposing new laws based on some people's religious beliefs against strip clubs using distance away from other buildings as the enforcement criteria. I just consider that to be an attack on strip clubs just because someone doesn't like them. I don't believe 100 ft or 500 ft really means a hill of beans as far as morality goes but that was the law used to shut down some strip clubs. If I could change the laws in this nation, I would have a few things be more liberal. I don't see a need for a law requiring females to wear bikini tops at the beach. I would change that law right away. I would immediately raise the speed limit on long stretches of empty divided highway. I would do away with the blue laws restricting the sale of beer and wine on Sunday. Yes, there are many things I would change. Overall though I believe we are still more free here than in other foreign countries.

    However, I see concerns that we are becoming a police state where every activity is monitored and our rights are being eroded for our own safety. I believe one of our founding fathers stated a phrase that applies to the United States today. by Benjamin Franklin "those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." source of quote found at http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Fr…
  • driver01no2
    19 years ago
    Hi I'm Driver01no2. I'm Driver01's genetic clone. I was hoping someone here could help me. Is there some reason I should pitch a tent in my pants every time someone quotes Mark Twain? Is there something wrong with me? Well then I'll leave you with the words of Mark Twain--"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you will not orally copulate than to open it and remove all doubt." (Oh no - Its happening again.)
  • FONDL
    19 years ago
    Casualguy, then you must have a real problem living in the US because that's what all laws do, they impose someone else's views on you through the legal system, and we have more laws (and lawyers) than anywhere else on the planet.

    I remember one time years ago that a weird group of religious wackos had staked out the parking lot of a strip club and was taking down license plate numbers, I think they then posted them in a local newspaper or something, trying to shut this place down. It was a shame that they didn't succeed either because it was one of the worst clubs I've ever visited. If the dancers had pooled their teeth I don't think they would have come up with a full set. Anyway as far as I know the place is still open because nobody cared. Guess those folks never heard of "love they neighbor" or "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" or "judge not lest ye be judged" which is my personal favorite response to people like that.
  • casualguy
    19 years ago
    I've seen strip clubs opposed by some churchgoers here in South Carolina and some clubs were shut down. They operated a successful business for years and then had to shutdown because I heard they were within 1000 ft of a church. Considering some religious groups like to put a church on every corner here in the south, it's probably hard to find a location zoned properly and not within 1000 ft or whatever the distance is now of a school, church, or neighborhood. I may have stopped going to strip clubs around that time but I kept hearing about strip clubs under attack on tv. I thought I better go before they close them all. I don't like someone trying to impose their beliefs on me through the use of the legal system.
  • FONDL
    19 years ago
    I'm a semi-regular church goer and I have never, not once, heard strip clubs mentioned in a sermon. Sure, some church groups may be opposed to strip clubs, but it's pretty low on the priority list. About 30 years ago I remember a club that ultimately closed after a ton of pressure from neighbors including church groups. But the club was right across the street from a church and school in a mostly residential neighborhood. That's the only case I ever heard of where a church group got involved in shutting down a club. So where is it happening today? I don't see it.
  • AbbieNormal
    19 years ago
    FONDL raises an interesting point. Exactly what is it that is happening in this country that has everyone so convinced a right wing theocracy is on the way? Ten years ago neither Penthouse or Hustler had gone hardcore. Now, with the exception of Playboy, every adult magazine is hardcore and you can buy them in any 7-11. Nudity (although not full frontal) is now acceptable on network TV thanks to NYPD Blue. Ever watch MTV videos? Reality TV? Gay marriage is now legal in Massechusettes. Can anyone name one thing that the "religious right" has imposed on us in the last decade? Howard Stern may like to complain, but I just don't see it.
  • driver01
    19 years ago
    Style? Hardly...LMAO. Thanks for proving Mr. Twain's point. I think I'll defer to others the merits of your argument versus mine... And since quotations of others whom have gone before us seem to be unsettling to you, I'll leave you with this (with a nod to Mr. Twain) " In the first place, God created the feeble-minded. This was for practice. Then he created Parodyman"... Point- Set- Match.
  • parodyman-->
    19 years ago
    FONDL: "But I do it with style..." (joking) I suppose for a serious forum you'd have a definate point. TUSCL is only semiserious to me.
  • FONDL
    19 years ago
    Stripshopper, I meant to comment on something that you said earlier but forgot. You said that you were sick of all the Right Wing crap that is happening today. Can you give me some examples? I'm not aware of much happening. Oh sure there's been a lot of noise. But none of it has amounted to anything important happening to my knowledge. Personally I think it's mostly fictional fear mongering that's being spread by a liberal press. Please give us some examples of Right Wing crap that's happening.
  • FONDL
    19 years ago
    You can't, because name calling always weakens your argument. It might be fun at times but it always lowers others' opinions of you. And that weakens any argument that you try to make.
  • parodyman-->
    19 years ago
    What about the talented few who can do both?
  • FONDL
    19 years ago
    Many years ago I was taught that when someone resorts to name calling, it's a sure sign that they can't think of any good arguments to support their point of view and have lost the debate. I've generally found that to be true.
  • parodyman-->
    19 years ago
    driver01: I stand by my original statement that you are a braying ass. I get that your first post was supposed to be funny. [At least in your mind.] But I wasn't impressed. What I do draw from your posts is that you seem to like to quote famous others such as Mark Twain. Are you one of those dorks who thinks that this makes you look either intelligent or important? I assure you it does not. "A douche bag will always carry the stench of vinagar no matter how many strawberrys he tries to hide behind." - Parodyman--> Go ahead and quote me.
  • driver01
    19 years ago
    In the words of the sportscaster Dick Enberg, "Oh-h-h My"....I fear my words may have been misconstued. I would invite, in fact, encourage you Mr. Parodyman to reread my post. It might help you to read it slowly as it may be a bit too nuanced for those with limited comprehension skills. For someone whose moniker is a literary play on words I am dismayed to see that despite your claim above to be "an artistic and creative person" you fail to recognize what clearly was written satirically and with a touch of irony. My understanding was that there was a requirement of at least a 9th grade education in order to participate in the discussion board section of this site-My mistake. And thanks Mr. Fondl for the assist but I assure you that the simple-minded ramblings of Mr. Parodyman are more of a reflection on him than on any of his targets. Of course, it may be possible that Mr. Parodyman just skimmed through my post above and honestly did not comprehend that tongue was planted firmly in cheek(no, not the butt cheek-lol) in my original musings. If so, I retract most of this rebuttal and leave you with the words of Mark Twain--"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
  • FONDL
    19 years ago
    Parody, you say that a real patriot is willing to take a stand when he thinks his country is moving in the wrong direction, then you call him a buttplug for doing exactly that? That makes no sense. Disagree if you like but please try being civil about it. He has as much right to voice his views as you do yours.
  • FONDL
    19 years ago
    I also meant to add to my previous post that I think we all believe in God. But we each have a very different definition of who or what God is. Mine, for example, is very different from the God of most organized religions. For me the word "God" is a synonym for "love" and "universal life force." That's kind of a mainstream new-age spiritual view. Which works for me. And as I've said before, if your beliefs work for you, eg. they make you happy and support the life that you want to live, then in my view they are your truth. But if they don't, you should attempt to change them. There is no one true set of beliefs that's right for everyone. For what it's worth, that's my view.
  • FONDL
    19 years ago
    Just to clarify, I'm not a huge fan of organized religion although I do sometimes participate and know a lot of people for whom they are helpful. The thing I object to most are: the belief that there's only one true religion (this belief accounts for most of the killing of the past 2,000 years or so), and the rule of all organized religions that one should never question their beliefs (which supports the first rule.) Throw out those two things and I think organized religions could be quite useful. But then they'd be very different, wouldn't they?
  • AbbieNormal
    19 years ago
    parodyman--> Don't put me in with the religious right. FONDL came a lot closer to nailing my politics, though I lean a little more to the right. I don't think the government should be legislating on morality, unless we're talking the big ones like murder and stealing, but I have absolutely no problem with religious people applying social pressure or shame. The idea that any christian expressing his opinion is an attempt at conversion is just plain stupid. As for the goose stepping, well I see a lot more lock step on the left. I'll say it again, disaproval is everyone's right. You disaprove of the religious right, well guess what, they disapprove of you trying to shut them up. Sounds fair, except that those on the left seem a lot more willing to employ the power of the state to back them up. As for the fascist allusions remember that contrary to popular opinion fascism is a leftist ideology. Both Hitler and Musolini were communists before they were fascists. They moderated their leftism, they didn't abandon it. I don't really want to get into that argument again however, so I'll just say it's been fun.

    parodyman--> I got no problem with you other than you need to tone down your rhetoric and condecension a bit or be willing to accept as good as you give. If you compare religious speech to terrorism, call the religious right sheep and fascists, well don't cry when they disaprove of the way you like to live. They have the right to offend you too. If language is too hard on you, thank god you live in the US where that's about as bad as it gets.

    FONDL, keep on lapin' in the free world.
  • parodyman-->
    19 years ago
    The religous right moral majority types make my balls itch!
  • driver01
    19 years ago
    Well, Mr. Clean and Sober--your point as it relates to strip clubs is...what exactly?

    Personally, I think you are preaching to the choir here. Now I can only speak for myself but I think most of my Tuscl brethren may very well agree with the following perspective. Most are not shy about invoking the name of the almighty when inside the confines of their local den of iniquity. In fact, I have heard many a patron call upon the good Lord every time any stunning young dancer makes an appearance on stage. It is said that the phrase "Oh my God" was actually coined by Benjamin Franklin whilst in attendance at the lascivious Hellfire Club in London(today- kind of a cross between Mitchell Bros in SF; the Bunnyranch and Skull&Bones). So, if it's good enough for one of our most prominent founders, ole Ben, it is certainly good enough for me. God may have been banned from schools, from high school football games, from city hall, etc...But I am proud to say that we Tusclites are lovers of all things patriotic & refuse to bend to the politically correct and the intolerant anti-religious zealots who would try to remove God from our strip clubs! I spit on them and am confident that our little group will never give into them. God Bless America and may God Bless the Pink Pony...
  • parodyman-->
    19 years ago
    This is awesome! The participation in this particular topic has been top notch. I didn’t start this to offend anyone. Even though as an artistic and extremely creative person I reserve the right to be offensive if it suits my purpose.

    At this time I would like to address certain individuals:

    FONDL: Yes I have spiritual beliefs. No I do not believe in organized religion. Let’s take Christianity for example. On the rare occasion that a Christian is being upfront and honest with you, he or she will tell you that it is part of their Christian mission [duty] to convert the rest of the world to their way of thinking. [Those that do not join them are unworthy and doomed to burn in hell.] I don’t force my views on anyone. I do find it offensive when someone knocks on my door in the early A.M. [unsolicited] and expects me to stand there while they spew their religious vomit at me. I don’t need someone to wake me out of a sound sleep to “save my soul.” Doesn’t it stand to reason that if I don’t want this shit on my front porch then I don’t want it to be the guiding principal of my elected body? Also, I am not an atheist. I do however think that there is a groundswell of misplaced information being perpetrated on the public by the Christian right that they are being persecuted. If you want to see what persecution in this country is… try being Jewish or black or gay or an illegal alien or anything else that offends the sensibilities of the white upper class [moral?] majority? Then you may have cause to cry, but not with the way things are now.

    AbbieNormal: The march of theocracy sounds an awfully lot like goose stepping to me. Either that or a herd of sheep trampling over the rights and freedoms that are supposed to be enjoyed by all. I do consider any attempt at religious conversion [A Christian stating his opinion.] to be “the spewing of religious bullshit.” My question is “Isn’t your asshole sore yet?” The constant deluge of diarrhea that seems to jet endlessly from you people is a huge irritation to the rest of us. Go to church and pray. Just do it for yourself and leave me the fuck out of it.

    For Everyone Else: I do have my own personal spiritual beliefs. I also try to adopt a basic “If you don’t fuck with me I won’t fuck with you attitude.” This has been increasingly difficult for me as I see a lot of “true believers” who are sure that their version of the word of God is the one true and right interpretation so they must save poor souls like me from spending eternity in a lake of fire. And God damn it, like it or not, they are going to make me listen! Why not cut out the niceties and do a religious intervention similar to those done for junkies and alcoholics. You could just drag someone to your church and beat them until they take the sacrament. Beat them some more and they might even cough up for the collection plate. I bet you “organized” fuckers would like that. I would even wager if you brought up this idea to the congregation your priest or whatever clergy would immediately drop the little boy that they were in the middle of molesting and cum right in their pants. Give it a try… See what happens.

  • FONDL
    19 years ago
    Abbie, I think you and I agree on this issue. I'm much more frightened by the extreme left than by the right, largely because they have been so successful. In fact almost everything that the left stood for in 1960 was official government policy by 1980. Which is why the religious right, who historically avoided politics, got deeply involved. But they haven't been very successful, at least at the federal level, because they are so fragmented. For example, there is very little agreement between the two largest religious groups, the Southern Baptists and the Catholic Church. And most Jewish groups as well as many Protestant groups support a lot of liberal causes. So in spite of the R's giving them a lot of lip service, little of the Right's agenda has come anywhere near passage. The fact that a pro-family agenda is considered to be conservative should tell you how successful the left has been in reshaping perceptions - it wasn't long ago that a pro-family agenda would have been considered a mderate position.

    Personally, I don't consider myself to be left, right or moderate. I consider myself to be a pragmatist with strong Libertarian leanings. Which means that I don't support any particular idealogy, I believe in doing what works, with a bias toward protecting individual freedoms wherever possible. That obviously means that I support some liberal positions, some conservative positions, some moderate positions, and some positions that don't fit any of those categories. Like the right of a girl to strip for money.

    But mostly I oppose big government because it simply doesn't work very well. Almost everything that the government does could be done better and more cheaply by some other sector of society.
  • AbbieNormal
    19 years ago
    StripShopper, I think one thing we ought to consider is that like it or not there are a lot of religious people in this country. Why is their expressing their opinion "spewing religious bullshit"? You may not like it, but a lot of people actually live their lives based on their religious beliefs. Are we then to say thet they have no right to speak out on political or policy issues? There is no constitutional freedom FROM religion, and you do not have the right to be protected from opinions that upset you. The laws of our land, in theory at least come from the people through their representatives. Those people are, and have been for a long time, among the most religious in the world. I'm certainly not for a theocracy, which is the cry we hear from the far left, but there seems to be an opinion among some that all religious expressions should be purged from public discourse. Like it or not, we are a nation founded by religious nuts with guns. We have also, despite our past imperfections, traditionally been the freest nation on the face of the earth. I'm really not worried about the religious right taking over. We're experiencing a swing back from the excesses of the left. This country is also experiencing a religious revival. It happens every so often. Despite these two working in tandem we are starting to legalize gay marriage, abortion still is almost unrestricted and hard core pornography is available in almost any convenience store. If that's the march of theocracy I think they're walking backwards. One point to FONDL, I think you are refering to the extreme wings of each party, the loud ones that get the most press. There are a lot of reasonable people in both parties.
  • FONDL
    19 years ago
    I think one reason that so many people in this country are so turned off by politics is that both parties have staked out extreme positions on many issues but much of the public is in the middle. Abortion is a perfect example: the R's would prohibit it in any circumstance, the D's would allow it in any circumstance and have it be free. I don't agree with either of those positions and I don't know anyone who does. But the way the issue is defined politically there's no possibility of getting to a middle position.

    Just out of curiousity, name me a law that isn't based on values? Offhand I can't think of any. All laws take something from one group of people and give it to another, that's what government does. And those decisions are based on value judgements which in turn derive from prevailing religious beliefs. The reason laws differ from country to country is that prevailing religious views and the values derived from them are different. You can't take the influence of religion out of government, it isn't possible.
  • StripShopper
    19 years ago
    Fondl, Come on...you actually believe that???

    Yes, I agree that a lot of laws are founded on religious beliefs....And that for the most part is O.K. (the bible was meant to guide people) And Yes I think it's absolute BS that they forced the removal of the "Ten Commandments" from government buildings.

    Like you, I have my spiritual beliefs...and I get really pissed when some "Asshole" starts spewing religious bullshit.

    I'm a middle of the road moderate with and eye on trying to make world a workable place for everybody......I just don't understand where you're coming from...especially with all the "Ring Wing" crap that's happening in this country.



  • FONDL
    19 years ago
    Parodyman, everyone including you has religious beliefs. Some people find comfort in participating in an organized religion, other people to keep their beliefs to themselves. I could care less what other people do. My only criteria is if my beliefs work for me (eg. help me to reach my goals), fine. If they don't, I change them. I object to anyone trying to shove their beliefs down someone else's throat, whether it's Christians doing the shoving or athiests. But it seems to me that lately it's the atheists who have been doing most of the shoving.
  • GooberMan
    19 years ago
    When quoting the Founders about religion, please refer to this site for a fact check:

    http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/foun…

    As for a proper secular moral code upon which to build a Constitution and laws, the Enlightenment thinkers like John Locke had most of it right when they appealed to man's ability to *reason* and to produce value by mixing his thought via labor with raw natural resources. This offered a good, life-affirming, rational, secular, individualistic, "natural law" basis for government.

    Opposing this later came Karl Marx with his irrational, though fully secular, collectivistic, "man-made law" basis for government.

    The former system respected the individual above the collective. The latter did the opposite.

    A fully secular basis for government based on the value of the individual and his capacity to reason makes perfect sense. It falls right into line with Adam Smith's WEALTH OF NATIONS. Most importantly, it makes no appeals to faith in an invisible and unprovable "Creator."

    Read CAPITALISM: THE UNKNOWN IDEAL by Ayn Rand to learn more.

    Not all atheists support the modern liberal agenda, least of all Ayn Rand and her supporters.
  • parodyman-->
    19 years ago
    Oh Jesus Christ. Those poor God Damn Christians are being picked on again! This whole world would be better off if people would stop believing in all of these superstitions and myths and get on with their lives. Only a fool would live under the boot heel of fear that organized religion promotes. Instead of being a Christian {or any other religion} try being a human being.
  • FONDL
    19 years ago
    I have two problems with the "separation of church and state" argument. First of all it isn't possible. All governments and their laws are based on a set of value judgments, which in turn are based on religious beliefs. Take away the influence of religion and there is no basis on which to enact laws. Which is why government policy and religious views have always everywhere been closely aligned. And no one ever questioned that until recently, when the liberal agenda began to diverge from traditional Christian views.

    Which leads to my second objection: the "separation" argument is used selectively, and is only raised when Christian views are in opposition to some new liberal position such as gay rights. When Christian views support a liberal position, as has often been the case, no objection is ever raised. Nor is the issue ever raised when some other non-Christian religion such as Paganism has a strong influence on government policy or is taught in our schools.

    In short, the "separation" argument is a liberal smokescreen raised to hide the fact that the liberal position has changed, and is no longer consistent with traditional Christian views, as it once was. In fact it wasn't very long ago that the Catholic Church was the Democratic party's biggest supporter. The church hasn't changed, the Democratic party has. Which is why they are no longer in the majority.
  • TopGunGlen
    19 years ago
    I have read a book called "The DaVinci Code" at my wife's insistence. It was ok, but that doesn't mean a lot of it's true. However, the Catholic Church came out and declared it sacrilegious. I never heard them call the priests that defiled those boys sacrilegious. In fact, they were protected by the Church for many years. I just believe in God my own way. Politicians and religious leaders have their own best interests at heart, not mine...
  • AbbieNormal
    19 years ago
    Well, the Catholic church already has a position on buggery being sinful, so declaring the priests sacreligious was a bit redundant, although I do agree that some worked a bit too hard to "redeem" those priests quietly rather than shipping them off to a monastary, or at least somewhere they couldn't take advantage of little boys. As for the DaVinchi code, I can see how they might be a bit upset with a story about how the church had conspired to hide the truth about Jesus and the gospel from the people for 2000 years. I'm not sure exactly what this has to do with the separation of church and state. By the way, there most certainly were evangelicals in the 17th century, even earlier. Where do you think all the Puritans, Quakers and other Protestant denominations came from. As far as the separation of church and state, the only constitutional prohibition is against the establishment of a national church. Many states had official religions and religious affiliation requirements to hold office until the end of the 19th century. In addition the state governments often supported these churches with taxes. In Massachussetts they were a bit more liberal. You had to pay a church tax, but it could go to the denomination of your choice.
  • Clean and Sober
    19 years ago
    The Bible was important to the Continental Congress and our Founding Fathers. On September 11, 1777, they recommended that 20,000 copies of the Bible be imported from outside the colonies because there was a great shortage of Bibles due to the interruptions in trade with England. The Bibles were ordered and paid for by the newly formed government. The first page of each Bible was inscribed, "Approved for the American people." A few years later, Congress approved a distinctly American Bible, Aitken's Bible, published under Congressional patronage. Until the mid 1900's, our government continually sought for ways to integrate religious principles into our nation, and even paid for it most of the time! Obviously, there was no such thing as "Separation of Church and State" until our radical modern era.
  • Clean and Sober
    19 years ago
    JOHN ADAMS, 1798

    "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." AND "It must be felt that there is no security but in the nation's humble acknowledged dependence upon God and His overruling providence."
  • Clean and Sober
    19 years ago
    THOMAS JEFFERSON, 1803

    "My views...are the result of a lifetime of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others..."
  • Clean and Sober
    19 years ago
    BENJAMIN FRANKLIN

    "We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel."
  • enquiz2001
    19 years ago
    This is a crock!! There were no evangelicals in the 17th century. You are twisting history to your own political tastes. In fact, Jefferson, Franklin and Adams, were all adverse to organized religion (They were the committee that drafted the Declaration).

    Religion does not belong in government. Period. It belongs in churches and the spirit of each individual.

    As far as the teaching of the "Bible" in schools - at what point is it the teaching of literature and philosophy or proselytization! The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were not written from Christian values, they were written from the the philosophy of the Enlightenment - which the good Christians of the era tried to destroy through the Inquisition and the Puritan over-zealousness that is echoed in this extreme Right Wing-Religiosity that has infected our politics today.

    Religion was seen for its poisonous side then by our founding fathers. That's why there was no test then, and no test for government positions today. Religion has its place - but not in government.

    If you want modern day proof of how poisonous Religion can be to government, look to the Mid-East today. Do we want to go in that direction???? And don't argue it is because it is Islam. It has nothing to do with Islam. It has everything to do with the dark nature of self-righteousness, ego, and ignorance.

    Besides everything else, Clean and Sober, what are you doing posting this on a Stirp Club List page unless you plan on trying to "Save Some Souls." You should be ashamed of yourself for entering this den of iniquity.
  • Clean and Sober
    19 years ago
    Secular Humanism is a religion that teaches that through Man's ability we will reach universal peace and unity and make heaven on earth. They promote a way of life that systematically excludes God and all religion in the traditional sense. That Man is the highest point to which nature has evolved, and he can rely on only himself and that the universe was not created, but instead is self-existing. They believe that Man has the potential to be good in and of himself. All of this of course is in direct conflict with not only the teachings of the Bible but even the lessons of history. In June 1961 in a case called Torcaso v. Watkins, the U.S. Supreme Court stated, "Among religions in this country which do not teach what would generally be considered a belief in the existence of God are Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism and others." The Supreme Court declared Secular Humanism to be a religion. The American Humanist Association certifies counselors who enjoy the same legal status as ordained ministers. Since the Supreme Court has said that Secular Humanism is a religion, why is it being allowed to be taught in schools? The removal of public prayer of those who wish to participate is, in effect, establishing the religion of Humanism over Christianity. This is exactly what our founding fathers tried to stop from happening with the first amendment.
  • komey1970
    19 years ago
    FONDL, I agree with the premise about church and state not really being seperated. I guess an arguement could be made that it ties in with morality threads here. I just think that I would almost rather read RLs ramblings than some politcal stuff here.
  • parodyman-->
    19 years ago
    Hold on komey1970. Do not invite RL into this one? Otherwise we will get posts like the following: Did you know that SOME CHURCHES encourage CRIMINAL behavior by protecting PRIESTS that make MICHAEL JACKSON look like a SAINT.
  • parodyman-->
    19 years ago
    I feel that perhaps we should invite the clergy to sit in at our local strip clubs. This way they can get first hand (perhaps an extra helping hand) experience in what they would normaly bitch about. It might even lower their tension enough that little boys will once again be safe inside of a church. {Side Note: If you let your children go to church unattended you might as well pimp them out to Michael Jackson. I hear he pays better.}
  • GooberMan
    19 years ago
    Now for a counterpoint view since the first post on this thread demanded it. I would like to remind people here that enemies of liberty on both left and right have sought to restrict our freedoms with respect to the pursuit of sexual pleasure.

    NATIONAL DAY OF REASON 2005 SPEECH

    Held in conjunction with National Day of Prayer on May 5

    Visit http://www.nationaldayofreason.org for more details.

    I would like to welcome all of you today to this important exchange of ideas regarding how best to foster a free and rational country. By a free and rational country, I mean one in which each of you can follow your own conscience -- your own reasoning -- without forcible interference by our government. I will outline a three step proposal to achieve this worthwhile goal.

    1. Keep government out of religion
    2. Keep religion out of government
    3. Reduce the intrusive role of government in civil society

    I will start with the easiest step first: Keep government out of religion!

    For as long as human beings have walked this Earth, they have asked themselves some big questions like:

    1. Is there any purpose to my life?
    2. How can I know what is good and what is evil?
    3. Are there any permanent truths?

    Religion and philosophy have played central roles in answering these big questions and in giving people a sense of spiritual meaning and purpose. Religion has traditionally served as the moral compass and inner fire in human existence.

    Unfortunately, religion has also offered a source of much conflict within human society. This long history of strife explains why the Founders of the United States, when they published their Declaration of Independence in 1776, wisely decided to incorporate the ideas of John Locke and other Enlightenment thinkers with the following passage:

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

    The Founders carried the ideas of individualism even further in the U.S. Constitution, which has no mention of God, no religious test for holding office and a First Amendment declaring that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Thomas Jefferson clarified this clause in a letter to a religious minority in Connecticut in 1802 when he stated that the First Amendment built "a wall of separation between church and state."

    In short, for much of our history, each resident of the United States has had the authority to decide for himself the answers to the big questions without forcible interference from either state or church.

    This separation of church and state worked well while we had a very small and un-intrusive government dedicated only to defending its citizens against force and fraud via the courts, the armed forces and the police. The state left religions alone to flourish, to diversify and to prosper, and individuals had the liberty to change churches at their own discretion. Unfortunately, as so often happens, some religious persons opted to use the state to interfere with the religious choices of their fellow citizens.

    This brings me to the second and more challenging step: Keep religion out of government!

    Let me offer one powerful example: government schools.

    The Irish Potato Famine of 1845 brought droves of Irish Catholics to American shores. Under the leadership of Horace Mann, Protestants decided to take it upon themselves to "save the children" from the Pope by institutionalizing compulsory state education, even though private education had proven its own effectiveness over the previous two centuries. This marked a turning point in American history and set the stage for de facto mixing of state and church via government schools.

    Of course, the integrity of our Constitution doomed this attempt to use government schools to teach religious dogma. It took decades of efforts by organizations like the American Civil Liberties Union and the American Atheists to undo this mess and the task just never seems to end. We can point directly to the institutionalized state education in the middle of the 19th century as a primary catalyst in this mixing of church and state.

    This brings me to the third and most challenging step: Reduce the intrusive role of government in civil society!

    Most advocates of separation of church and state consistently support the idea that religion needs to remain a private choice. But those same advocates contend that education, welfare, health care and a whole range of other values that once remained private choices should, somehow, some way, not remain private choices! They oppose faith in God but not faith in government.

    We all need to awaken from the slumber of forced government solutions and realize that freedom works! As I stand here and look at all the people in this room wearing free market clothing, eating free market food and preparing to head to their free market homes, I can say with total and complete confidence that individuals remain quite capable of making their own choices with respect to their spirits, their hearts, their minds and their bodies. We need not only a much smaller government confined to defending individuals from force and fraud, but also a level field of law that applies equally to both religious and secular institutions.

    In conclusion, I encourage everyone here to implement the three steps to a more free and rational country:

    1. Keep government out of religion
    2. Keep religion out of government
    3. Reduce the intrusive role of government in civil society

    I look forward to working with all of you to make this happen.

    Recommended Reading

    1. Coulson, Andrew. Market Education: The Unknown History (Studies in Social Philosophy & Policy, No. 21).
    2. Gatto, John Taylor. The Underground History of American Education.
    3. Richman, Sheldon. Separating School and State.
  • komey1970
    19 years ago
    Please keep political stuff off this message board. Thanks.
  • FONDL
    19 years ago
    Komey, I disagree. I think this topic is very relevant to much of the morality discussions that take place here. It's nice to see someone come forward with this because few people today are aware that there's no such thing anywhere in our laws that requires separation of church and state. In fact, church and state have traditionally worked closely together in addressing many of our social problems. For example our first educational systems and our first welfare systems were both run by churches. The idea that church and state should be aseparate is not only a relatively new view but also one that has no legal standing. It's part of the liberal agenda, which is why the media keeps repeating it ad naseum, but that doesn't make it so.
  • parodyman-->
    19 years ago
    driver01: You are a braying ass. Try to have a point. A real patriot is willing to voice his dissent when he feels that his country may be taking a wrong turn. God never enters into it. You sir are a sheep. Or if this analogy better suits you, You are the butt plug that helps hold all of the religous crap in this country. If someone would pull you out maybe some of that filth would be expelled.
  • FONDL
    19 years ago
    Anyone who thinks it's the right that's trying to limit personal freedom should note yesterday's Supreme Court ruling that greatly expands local government's ability to use of eminent domain to seize private property. The five liberal judges ruled that local governments can take your private property for just about any reason whatsoever including prive development. Four conservative judges disagreed. This is the biggest attack on your right to own private property in the history of our country. No wonder the right keeps gaining strength.
  • AbbieNormal
    19 years ago
    I'm not for government limiting personal freedom except in the usual traditional common law way. I am willing to tolerate more social pressure than we seem to have now. It seems as if disapproval and criticism are now seen as violating one's rights, and it is the government's job to somehow control that and keep unpleasant or critical speech out of the public debate.
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