Words to consider
Clean and Sober
The Myth of
the Separation of Church and State
When religion is mentioned within the confines of government today many people cry, "Separation of Church and State". Many people think this statement appears in the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution and therefore must be strictly enforced. However, the words: "separation", "church", and "state" do not even appear in the first amendment. The first amendment reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." The statement about a wall of separation between church and state was made in a letter on January 1, 1802, by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut. The congregation heard a widespread rumor that the Congregationalists, another denomination, were to become the national religion. This was very alarming to people who knew about religious persecution in England by the state established church. Jefferson made it clear in his letter to the Danbury Congregation that the separation was to be that government would not establish a national religion or dictate to men how to worship God. Jefferson's letter from which the phrase "separation of church and state" was taken affirmed first amendment rights. Jefferson wrote:
I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. (1)
The reason Jefferson choose the expression "separation of church and state" was because he was addressing a Baptist congregation; a denomination of which he was not a member. Jefferson wanted to remove all fears that the state would make dictates to the church. He was establishing common ground with the Baptists by borrowing the words of Roger Williams, one of the Baptist's own prominent preachers. Williams had said:
When they have opened a gap in the hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the Church and the wilderness of the world, God hath ever broke down the wall itself, removed the candlestick, and made his garden a wilderness, as at this day. And that there fore if He will eer please to restore His garden and paradise again, it must of necessity be walled in peculiarly unto Himself from the world...(2)
The "wall" was understood as one-directional; its purpose was to protect the church from the state. The world was not to corrupt the church, yet the church was free to teach the people Biblical values.
The American people knew what would happen if the State established the Church like in England. Even though it was not recent history to them, they knew that England went so far as forbidding worship in private homes and sponsoring all church activities and keeping people under strict dictates. They were forced to go to the state established church and do things that were contrary to their conscience. No other churches were allowed, and mandatory attendance of the established church was compelled under the Conventicle Act of 1665. Failure to comply would result in imprisonment and torture. The people did not want freedom from religion, but freedom of religion. The only real reason to separate the church from the state would be to instill a new morality and establish a new system of beliefs. Our founding fathers were God-fearing men who understood that for a country to stand it must have a solid foundation; the Bible was the source of this foundation. They believed that God's ways were much higher than Man's ways and held firmly that the Bible was the absolute standard of truth and used the Bible as a source to form our government.
There is no such thing as a pluralistic society. There will always be one dominant view, otherwise it will be in transition from one belief system to another. Therefore, to say Biblical principles should not be allowed in government and school is to either be ignorant of the historic intent of the founding fathers, or blatantly bigoted against Christianity.
Each form of government has a guiding principle: monarchy in which the guiding principle is honor; aristocracy in which the guiding principle is moderation; republican democracy in which the guiding principle is virtue; despotism in which the guiding principle is fear. Without people of the United States upholding good moral conduct, society soon degenerates into a corrupt system where people misuse the authority of government to obtain what they want at the expense of others. The U.S. Constitution is the form of our government, but the power is in the virtue of the people. The virtue desired of the people is shown in the Bible. This is why Biblical morality was taught in public schools until the early 1960's. Government officials were required to declare their belief in God even to be allowed to hold a public office until a case in the U.S. Supreme Court called Torcaso v. Watkins (Oct. 1960). God was seen as the author of natural law and morality. If one did not believe in God one could not operate from a proper moral base. And by not having a foundation from which to work, one would destroy the community. The two primary places where morality is taught are the family and the church. The church was allowed to influence the government in righteousness an d justice so that virtue would be upheld. Not allowing the church to influence the state is detrimental to the country and destroys our foundation of righteousness and justice. It is absolutely necessary for the church to influence the state in virtue because without virtue our government will crumble -- the representatives will look after their own good instead of the country's.
Government was never meant to be our master as in a ruthless monarchy or dictatorship. Instead, it was to be our servant. The founding fathers believed that the people have full power to govern themselves and that people chose to give up some of their rights for the general good and the protection of rights. Each person should be self-governed and this is why virtue is so important. Government was meant to serve the people by protecting their liberty and rights, not serve by an enormous amount of social programs. The authors of the Constitution wanted the government to have as little power as possible so that if authority was misused it would not cause as much damage. Yet they wanted government to have enough authority to protect the rights of the people. The worldview at the time of the founding of our government was a view held by the Bible: that Man's heart is corrupt and if the opportunity to advance oneself at the expense of another arose, more often than not, we would choose to do so. They firmly believed this and that's why an enormous effort to set up checks and balances took place. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. They wanted to make certain that no man could take away rights given by God. They also did not set up the government as a true democracy, because they believed, as mentioned earlier, Man tends towards wickedness. Just because the majority wants something does not mean that it should be granted, because the majority could easily err. Government was not to be run by whatever the majority wanted but instead by principle, specifically the principles of the Bible.
Our U.S. Constitution was founded on Biblical principles and it was the intention of the authors for this to be a Christian nation. The Constitution had 55 people work upon it, of which 52 were evangelical Christians.(3) We can go back in history and look at what the founding fathers wrote to know where they were getting their ideas. This is exactly what two professors did. Donald Lutz and Charles Hyneman reviewed an estimated 15,000 items with explicit political content printed between 1760 and 1805 and from these items they identified 3,154 references to other sources. The source they most often quoted was the Bible, accounting for 34% of all citations. Sixty percent of all quotes came from men who used the Bible to form their conclusions. That means that 94% of all quotes by the founding fathers were based on the Bible. The founding fathers took ideas from the Bible and incorporated them into our government. If it was their intention to separate the state and church they would never have taken principles from the Bible and put them into our government. An example of an idea taken from the Bible and then incorporated into our government is found in Isaiah 33:22 which says, "For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is our lawgiver, the Lord is our king..." The founding fathers took this scripture and made three major branches in our government: judicial, legislative, and executive. As mentioned earlier, the founding fathers strongly believed that Man was by nature corrupt and therefore it was necessary to separate the powers of the government. For instance, the President has the power to execute laws but not make them, and Congress has the power to make laws but not to judge the people. The simple principle of checks and balances came from the Bible to protect people from tyranny. The President of the United States is free to influence Congress, although he can not exercise authority over it because they are separated. Since this is true, why should the church not be allowed to influence the state? People have read too much into the phrase "separation of church and state", which is to be a separation of civil authority from ecclesiastical authority, not moral values. Congress has passed laws that it is illegal to murder and steal, which is the legislation of morality. These standards of morality are found in the Bible. Should we remove them from law because the church should be separated from the state?
Our founding fathers who formed the government also formed the educational system of the day. John Witherspoon did not attend the Constitutional Convention although he was President of New Jersey College in 1768 (known as Princeton since 1896) and a signer of the Declaration of Independence. His influence on the Constitution was far ranging in that he taught nine of fifty-five original delegates. He fought firmly for religious freedom and said, "God grant that in America true religion and civil liberty may be inseparable and that unjust attempts to destroy the one may in the issue tend to the support and establishment of both."(4)
In October 1961 the Supreme Court of the United States removed prayer from schools in a case called Engel v. Vitale. The case said that because the U.S. Constitution prohibits any law respecting an establishment of religion officials of public schools may not compose public prayer even if the prayer is denominationally neutral, and that pupils may choose to remain silent or be excused while the prayer is being recited. For 185 years prayer was allowed in public and the Constitutional Convention itself was opened with prayer. If the founding fathers didn't want prayer in government why did they pray publicly in official meetings? It is sometimes said that it is permissible to pray in school as long as it is silent. Although, "In Omaha, Nebraska, 10-year old James Gierke was prohibited from reading his Bible silently during free time... the boy was forbidden by his teacher to open his Bible at school and was told doing so was against the law."(4) The U.S. Supreme Court with no precedent in any court history said prayer will be removed from school. Yet the Supreme Court in January, 1844 in a case named Vidal v. Girard's Executors, a school was to be built in which no ecclesiastic, missionary, or minister of any sect whatsoever was to be allowed to even step on the property of the school. They argued over whether a layman could teach or not, but they agreed that, "...there is an obligation to teach what the Bible alone can teach, viz. a pure system of morality." This has been the precedent throughout 185 years. Although this case is from 1844, it illustrates the point. The prayer in question was not even lengthy or denominationally geared. It was this: "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country." What price have we paid by removing this simple acknowledgment of God's protecting hand in our lives? Birth rates for unwed girls from 15-19; sexually transmitted diseases among 10-14 year olds; pre-marital sex increased; violent crime; adolescent homicide have all gone up considerably from 1961 to the 1990's -- even after taking into account population growth. The Bible, before 1961, was used extensively in curriculum. After the Bible was removed, scholastic aptitude test scores dropped considerably.
There is no such thing as a pluralistic society; there will always be one dominant view. Someone's morality is going to be taught -- but whose? Secular Humanism is a religion that teaches that through Man's ability we will reach universal peace and unity and make heaven on earth. They promote a way of life that systematically excludes God and all religion in the traditional sense. That Man is the highest point to which nature has evolved, and he can rely on only himself and that the universe was not created, but instead is self-existing. They believe that Man has the potential to be good in and of himself. All of this of course is in direct conflict with not only the teachings of the Bible but even the lessons of history. In June 1961 in a case called Torcaso v. Watkins, the U.S. Supreme Court stated, "Among religions in this country which do not teach what would generally be considered a belief in the existence of God are Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism and others." The Supreme Court declared Secular Humanism to be a religion. The American Humanist Association certifies counselors who enjoy the same legal status as ordained ministers. Since the Supreme Court has said that Secular Humanism is a religion, why is it being allowed to be taught in schools? The removal of public prayer of those who wish to participate is, in effect, establishing the religion of Humanism over Christianity. This is exactly what our founding fathers tried to stop from happening with the first amendment.
1. Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Writings, Merrill D. Peterson, ed. (NY: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), p. 510, January 1, 1802.
2. John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution (MI: Baker Book House, 1987), p. 243.
3. M.E. Bradford, A Worthy Company: Brief Lives of the Framers of the United States Constitution (Marlborough, N.H.: Plymouth Rock Foundation, 1982), p. 4-5.
4. John Witherspoon, "Sermon on the Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men" May 17, 1776; quoted and Cited by Collins, President Witherspoon, I:197-98.
the Separation of Church and State
When religion is mentioned within the confines of government today many people cry, "Separation of Church and State". Many people think this statement appears in the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution and therefore must be strictly enforced. However, the words: "separation", "church", and "state" do not even appear in the first amendment. The first amendment reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." The statement about a wall of separation between church and state was made in a letter on January 1, 1802, by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut. The congregation heard a widespread rumor that the Congregationalists, another denomination, were to become the national religion. This was very alarming to people who knew about religious persecution in England by the state established church. Jefferson made it clear in his letter to the Danbury Congregation that the separation was to be that government would not establish a national religion or dictate to men how to worship God. Jefferson's letter from which the phrase "separation of church and state" was taken affirmed first amendment rights. Jefferson wrote:
I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. (1)
The reason Jefferson choose the expression "separation of church and state" was because he was addressing a Baptist congregation; a denomination of which he was not a member. Jefferson wanted to remove all fears that the state would make dictates to the church. He was establishing common ground with the Baptists by borrowing the words of Roger Williams, one of the Baptist's own prominent preachers. Williams had said:
When they have opened a gap in the hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the Church and the wilderness of the world, God hath ever broke down the wall itself, removed the candlestick, and made his garden a wilderness, as at this day. And that there fore if He will eer please to restore His garden and paradise again, it must of necessity be walled in peculiarly unto Himself from the world...(2)
The "wall" was understood as one-directional; its purpose was to protect the church from the state. The world was not to corrupt the church, yet the church was free to teach the people Biblical values.
The American people knew what would happen if the State established the Church like in England. Even though it was not recent history to them, they knew that England went so far as forbidding worship in private homes and sponsoring all church activities and keeping people under strict dictates. They were forced to go to the state established church and do things that were contrary to their conscience. No other churches were allowed, and mandatory attendance of the established church was compelled under the Conventicle Act of 1665. Failure to comply would result in imprisonment and torture. The people did not want freedom from religion, but freedom of religion. The only real reason to separate the church from the state would be to instill a new morality and establish a new system of beliefs. Our founding fathers were God-fearing men who understood that for a country to stand it must have a solid foundation; the Bible was the source of this foundation. They believed that God's ways were much higher than Man's ways and held firmly that the Bible was the absolute standard of truth and used the Bible as a source to form our government.
There is no such thing as a pluralistic society. There will always be one dominant view, otherwise it will be in transition from one belief system to another. Therefore, to say Biblical principles should not be allowed in government and school is to either be ignorant of the historic intent of the founding fathers, or blatantly bigoted against Christianity.
Each form of government has a guiding principle: monarchy in which the guiding principle is honor; aristocracy in which the guiding principle is moderation; republican democracy in which the guiding principle is virtue; despotism in which the guiding principle is fear. Without people of the United States upholding good moral conduct, society soon degenerates into a corrupt system where people misuse the authority of government to obtain what they want at the expense of others. The U.S. Constitution is the form of our government, but the power is in the virtue of the people. The virtue desired of the people is shown in the Bible. This is why Biblical morality was taught in public schools until the early 1960's. Government officials were required to declare their belief in God even to be allowed to hold a public office until a case in the U.S. Supreme Court called Torcaso v. Watkins (Oct. 1960). God was seen as the author of natural law and morality. If one did not believe in God one could not operate from a proper moral base. And by not having a foundation from which to work, one would destroy the community. The two primary places where morality is taught are the family and the church. The church was allowed to influence the government in righteousness an d justice so that virtue would be upheld. Not allowing the church to influence the state is detrimental to the country and destroys our foundation of righteousness and justice. It is absolutely necessary for the church to influence the state in virtue because without virtue our government will crumble -- the representatives will look after their own good instead of the country's.
Government was never meant to be our master as in a ruthless monarchy or dictatorship. Instead, it was to be our servant. The founding fathers believed that the people have full power to govern themselves and that people chose to give up some of their rights for the general good and the protection of rights. Each person should be self-governed and this is why virtue is so important. Government was meant to serve the people by protecting their liberty and rights, not serve by an enormous amount of social programs. The authors of the Constitution wanted the government to have as little power as possible so that if authority was misused it would not cause as much damage. Yet they wanted government to have enough authority to protect the rights of the people. The worldview at the time of the founding of our government was a view held by the Bible: that Man's heart is corrupt and if the opportunity to advance oneself at the expense of another arose, more often than not, we would choose to do so. They firmly believed this and that's why an enormous effort to set up checks and balances took place. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. They wanted to make certain that no man could take away rights given by God. They also did not set up the government as a true democracy, because they believed, as mentioned earlier, Man tends towards wickedness. Just because the majority wants something does not mean that it should be granted, because the majority could easily err. Government was not to be run by whatever the majority wanted but instead by principle, specifically the principles of the Bible.
Our U.S. Constitution was founded on Biblical principles and it was the intention of the authors for this to be a Christian nation. The Constitution had 55 people work upon it, of which 52 were evangelical Christians.(3) We can go back in history and look at what the founding fathers wrote to know where they were getting their ideas. This is exactly what two professors did. Donald Lutz and Charles Hyneman reviewed an estimated 15,000 items with explicit political content printed between 1760 and 1805 and from these items they identified 3,154 references to other sources. The source they most often quoted was the Bible, accounting for 34% of all citations. Sixty percent of all quotes came from men who used the Bible to form their conclusions. That means that 94% of all quotes by the founding fathers were based on the Bible. The founding fathers took ideas from the Bible and incorporated them into our government. If it was their intention to separate the state and church they would never have taken principles from the Bible and put them into our government. An example of an idea taken from the Bible and then incorporated into our government is found in Isaiah 33:22 which says, "For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is our lawgiver, the Lord is our king..." The founding fathers took this scripture and made three major branches in our government: judicial, legislative, and executive. As mentioned earlier, the founding fathers strongly believed that Man was by nature corrupt and therefore it was necessary to separate the powers of the government. For instance, the President has the power to execute laws but not make them, and Congress has the power to make laws but not to judge the people. The simple principle of checks and balances came from the Bible to protect people from tyranny. The President of the United States is free to influence Congress, although he can not exercise authority over it because they are separated. Since this is true, why should the church not be allowed to influence the state? People have read too much into the phrase "separation of church and state", which is to be a separation of civil authority from ecclesiastical authority, not moral values. Congress has passed laws that it is illegal to murder and steal, which is the legislation of morality. These standards of morality are found in the Bible. Should we remove them from law because the church should be separated from the state?
Our founding fathers who formed the government also formed the educational system of the day. John Witherspoon did not attend the Constitutional Convention although he was President of New Jersey College in 1768 (known as Princeton since 1896) and a signer of the Declaration of Independence. His influence on the Constitution was far ranging in that he taught nine of fifty-five original delegates. He fought firmly for religious freedom and said, "God grant that in America true religion and civil liberty may be inseparable and that unjust attempts to destroy the one may in the issue tend to the support and establishment of both."(4)
In October 1961 the Supreme Court of the United States removed prayer from schools in a case called Engel v. Vitale. The case said that because the U.S. Constitution prohibits any law respecting an establishment of religion officials of public schools may not compose public prayer even if the prayer is denominationally neutral, and that pupils may choose to remain silent or be excused while the prayer is being recited. For 185 years prayer was allowed in public and the Constitutional Convention itself was opened with prayer. If the founding fathers didn't want prayer in government why did they pray publicly in official meetings? It is sometimes said that it is permissible to pray in school as long as it is silent. Although, "In Omaha, Nebraska, 10-year old James Gierke was prohibited from reading his Bible silently during free time... the boy was forbidden by his teacher to open his Bible at school and was told doing so was against the law."(4) The U.S. Supreme Court with no precedent in any court history said prayer will be removed from school. Yet the Supreme Court in January, 1844 in a case named Vidal v. Girard's Executors, a school was to be built in which no ecclesiastic, missionary, or minister of any sect whatsoever was to be allowed to even step on the property of the school. They argued over whether a layman could teach or not, but they agreed that, "...there is an obligation to teach what the Bible alone can teach, viz. a pure system of morality." This has been the precedent throughout 185 years. Although this case is from 1844, it illustrates the point. The prayer in question was not even lengthy or denominationally geared. It was this: "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country." What price have we paid by removing this simple acknowledgment of God's protecting hand in our lives? Birth rates for unwed girls from 15-19; sexually transmitted diseases among 10-14 year olds; pre-marital sex increased; violent crime; adolescent homicide have all gone up considerably from 1961 to the 1990's -- even after taking into account population growth. The Bible, before 1961, was used extensively in curriculum. After the Bible was removed, scholastic aptitude test scores dropped considerably.
There is no such thing as a pluralistic society; there will always be one dominant view. Someone's morality is going to be taught -- but whose? Secular Humanism is a religion that teaches that through Man's ability we will reach universal peace and unity and make heaven on earth. They promote a way of life that systematically excludes God and all religion in the traditional sense. That Man is the highest point to which nature has evolved, and he can rely on only himself and that the universe was not created, but instead is self-existing. They believe that Man has the potential to be good in and of himself. All of this of course is in direct conflict with not only the teachings of the Bible but even the lessons of history. In June 1961 in a case called Torcaso v. Watkins, the U.S. Supreme Court stated, "Among religions in this country which do not teach what would generally be considered a belief in the existence of God are Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism and others." The Supreme Court declared Secular Humanism to be a religion. The American Humanist Association certifies counselors who enjoy the same legal status as ordained ministers. Since the Supreme Court has said that Secular Humanism is a religion, why is it being allowed to be taught in schools? The removal of public prayer of those who wish to participate is, in effect, establishing the religion of Humanism over Christianity. This is exactly what our founding fathers tried to stop from happening with the first amendment.
1. Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Writings, Merrill D. Peterson, ed. (NY: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), p. 510, January 1, 1802.
2. John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution (MI: Baker Book House, 1987), p. 243.
3. M.E. Bradford, A Worthy Company: Brief Lives of the Framers of the United States Constitution (Marlborough, N.H.: Plymouth Rock Foundation, 1982), p. 4-5.
4. John Witherspoon, "Sermon on the Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men" May 17, 1776; quoted and Cited by Collins, President Witherspoon, I:197-98.
49 comments
My favorite quote from our founding fathers is, "The best government is that which governs least," or something like that. I think that was Thomas Jefferson who was considered to be the leading liberal of his day. Which shows how the definition of "liberal" has changed. Which I think is the saddest thing of all. The only true liberals in our society today are the Libertarians. Anyone else who calls himself a liberal is lying.
However, I see concerns that we are becoming a police state where every activity is monitored and our rights are being eroded for our own safety. I believe one of our founding fathers stated a phrase that applies to the United States today. by Benjamin Franklin "those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." source of quote found at http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Fr…
I remember one time years ago that a weird group of religious wackos had staked out the parking lot of a strip club and was taking down license plate numbers, I think they then posted them in a local newspaper or something, trying to shut this place down. It was a shame that they didn't succeed either because it was one of the worst clubs I've ever visited. If the dancers had pooled their teeth I don't think they would have come up with a full set. Anyway as far as I know the place is still open because nobody cared. Guess those folks never heard of "love they neighbor" or "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" or "judge not lest ye be judged" which is my personal favorite response to people like that.
parodyman--> I got no problem with you other than you need to tone down your rhetoric and condecension a bit or be willing to accept as good as you give. If you compare religious speech to terrorism, call the religious right sheep and fascists, well don't cry when they disaprove of the way you like to live. They have the right to offend you too. If language is too hard on you, thank god you live in the US where that's about as bad as it gets.
FONDL, keep on lapin' in the free world.
Personally, I think you are preaching to the choir here. Now I can only speak for myself but I think most of my Tuscl brethren may very well agree with the following perspective. Most are not shy about invoking the name of the almighty when inside the confines of their local den of iniquity. In fact, I have heard many a patron call upon the good Lord every time any stunning young dancer makes an appearance on stage. It is said that the phrase "Oh my God" was actually coined by Benjamin Franklin whilst in attendance at the lascivious Hellfire Club in London(today- kind of a cross between Mitchell Bros in SF; the Bunnyranch and Skull&Bones). So, if it's good enough for one of our most prominent founders, ole Ben, it is certainly good enough for me. God may have been banned from schools, from high school football games, from city hall, etc...But I am proud to say that we Tusclites are lovers of all things patriotic & refuse to bend to the politically correct and the intolerant anti-religious zealots who would try to remove God from our strip clubs! I spit on them and am confident that our little group will never give into them. God Bless America and may God Bless the Pink Pony...
At this time I would like to address certain individuals:
FONDL: Yes I have spiritual beliefs. No I do not believe in organized religion. Let’s take Christianity for example. On the rare occasion that a Christian is being upfront and honest with you, he or she will tell you that it is part of their Christian mission [duty] to convert the rest of the world to their way of thinking. [Those that do not join them are unworthy and doomed to burn in hell.] I don’t force my views on anyone. I do find it offensive when someone knocks on my door in the early A.M. [unsolicited] and expects me to stand there while they spew their religious vomit at me. I don’t need someone to wake me out of a sound sleep to “save my soul.” Doesn’t it stand to reason that if I don’t want this shit on my front porch then I don’t want it to be the guiding principal of my elected body? Also, I am not an atheist. I do however think that there is a groundswell of misplaced information being perpetrated on the public by the Christian right that they are being persecuted. If you want to see what persecution in this country is… try being Jewish or black or gay or an illegal alien or anything else that offends the sensibilities of the white upper class [moral?] majority? Then you may have cause to cry, but not with the way things are now.
AbbieNormal: The march of theocracy sounds an awfully lot like goose stepping to me. Either that or a herd of sheep trampling over the rights and freedoms that are supposed to be enjoyed by all. I do consider any attempt at religious conversion [A Christian stating his opinion.] to be “the spewing of religious bullshit.” My question is “Isn’t your asshole sore yet?” The constant deluge of diarrhea that seems to jet endlessly from you people is a huge irritation to the rest of us. Go to church and pray. Just do it for yourself and leave me the fuck out of it.
For Everyone Else: I do have my own personal spiritual beliefs. I also try to adopt a basic “If you don’t fuck with me I won’t fuck with you attitude.” This has been increasingly difficult for me as I see a lot of “true believers” who are sure that their version of the word of God is the one true and right interpretation so they must save poor souls like me from spending eternity in a lake of fire. And God damn it, like it or not, they are going to make me listen! Why not cut out the niceties and do a religious intervention similar to those done for junkies and alcoholics. You could just drag someone to your church and beat them until they take the sacrament. Beat them some more and they might even cough up for the collection plate. I bet you “organized” fuckers would like that. I would even wager if you brought up this idea to the congregation your priest or whatever clergy would immediately drop the little boy that they were in the middle of molesting and cum right in their pants. Give it a try… See what happens.
Personally, I don't consider myself to be left, right or moderate. I consider myself to be a pragmatist with strong Libertarian leanings. Which means that I don't support any particular idealogy, I believe in doing what works, with a bias toward protecting individual freedoms wherever possible. That obviously means that I support some liberal positions, some conservative positions, some moderate positions, and some positions that don't fit any of those categories. Like the right of a girl to strip for money.
But mostly I oppose big government because it simply doesn't work very well. Almost everything that the government does could be done better and more cheaply by some other sector of society.
Just out of curiousity, name me a law that isn't based on values? Offhand I can't think of any. All laws take something from one group of people and give it to another, that's what government does. And those decisions are based on value judgements which in turn derive from prevailing religious beliefs. The reason laws differ from country to country is that prevailing religious views and the values derived from them are different. You can't take the influence of religion out of government, it isn't possible.
Yes, I agree that a lot of laws are founded on religious beliefs....And that for the most part is O.K. (the bible was meant to guide people) And Yes I think it's absolute BS that they forced the removal of the "Ten Commandments" from government buildings.
Like you, I have my spiritual beliefs...and I get really pissed when some "Asshole" starts spewing religious bullshit.
I'm a middle of the road moderate with and eye on trying to make world a workable place for everybody......I just don't understand where you're coming from...especially with all the "Ring Wing" crap that's happening in this country.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/foun…
As for a proper secular moral code upon which to build a Constitution and laws, the Enlightenment thinkers like John Locke had most of it right when they appealed to man's ability to *reason* and to produce value by mixing his thought via labor with raw natural resources. This offered a good, life-affirming, rational, secular, individualistic, "natural law" basis for government.
Opposing this later came Karl Marx with his irrational, though fully secular, collectivistic, "man-made law" basis for government.
The former system respected the individual above the collective. The latter did the opposite.
A fully secular basis for government based on the value of the individual and his capacity to reason makes perfect sense. It falls right into line with Adam Smith's WEALTH OF NATIONS. Most importantly, it makes no appeals to faith in an invisible and unprovable "Creator."
Read CAPITALISM: THE UNKNOWN IDEAL by Ayn Rand to learn more.
Not all atheists support the modern liberal agenda, least of all Ayn Rand and her supporters.
Which leads to my second objection: the "separation" argument is used selectively, and is only raised when Christian views are in opposition to some new liberal position such as gay rights. When Christian views support a liberal position, as has often been the case, no objection is ever raised. Nor is the issue ever raised when some other non-Christian religion such as Paganism has a strong influence on government policy or is taught in our schools.
In short, the "separation" argument is a liberal smokescreen raised to hide the fact that the liberal position has changed, and is no longer consistent with traditional Christian views, as it once was. In fact it wasn't very long ago that the Catholic Church was the Democratic party's biggest supporter. The church hasn't changed, the Democratic party has. Which is why they are no longer in the majority.
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." AND "It must be felt that there is no security but in the nation's humble acknowledged dependence upon God and His overruling providence."
"My views...are the result of a lifetime of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others..."
"We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel."
Religion does not belong in government. Period. It belongs in churches and the spirit of each individual.
As far as the teaching of the "Bible" in schools - at what point is it the teaching of literature and philosophy or proselytization! The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were not written from Christian values, they were written from the the philosophy of the Enlightenment - which the good Christians of the era tried to destroy through the Inquisition and the Puritan over-zealousness that is echoed in this extreme Right Wing-Religiosity that has infected our politics today.
Religion was seen for its poisonous side then by our founding fathers. That's why there was no test then, and no test for government positions today. Religion has its place - but not in government.
If you want modern day proof of how poisonous Religion can be to government, look to the Mid-East today. Do we want to go in that direction???? And don't argue it is because it is Islam. It has nothing to do with Islam. It has everything to do with the dark nature of self-righteousness, ego, and ignorance.
Besides everything else, Clean and Sober, what are you doing posting this on a Stirp Club List page unless you plan on trying to "Save Some Souls." You should be ashamed of yourself for entering this den of iniquity.
NATIONAL DAY OF REASON 2005 SPEECH
Held in conjunction with National Day of Prayer on May 5
Visit http://www.nationaldayofreason.org for more details.
I would like to welcome all of you today to this important exchange of ideas regarding how best to foster a free and rational country. By a free and rational country, I mean one in which each of you can follow your own conscience -- your own reasoning -- without forcible interference by our government. I will outline a three step proposal to achieve this worthwhile goal.
1. Keep government out of religion
2. Keep religion out of government
3. Reduce the intrusive role of government in civil society
I will start with the easiest step first: Keep government out of religion!
For as long as human beings have walked this Earth, they have asked themselves some big questions like:
1. Is there any purpose to my life?
2. How can I know what is good and what is evil?
3. Are there any permanent truths?
Religion and philosophy have played central roles in answering these big questions and in giving people a sense of spiritual meaning and purpose. Religion has traditionally served as the moral compass and inner fire in human existence.
Unfortunately, religion has also offered a source of much conflict within human society. This long history of strife explains why the Founders of the United States, when they published their Declaration of Independence in 1776, wisely decided to incorporate the ideas of John Locke and other Enlightenment thinkers with the following passage:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
The Founders carried the ideas of individualism even further in the U.S. Constitution, which has no mention of God, no religious test for holding office and a First Amendment declaring that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Thomas Jefferson clarified this clause in a letter to a religious minority in Connecticut in 1802 when he stated that the First Amendment built "a wall of separation between church and state."
In short, for much of our history, each resident of the United States has had the authority to decide for himself the answers to the big questions without forcible interference from either state or church.
This separation of church and state worked well while we had a very small and un-intrusive government dedicated only to defending its citizens against force and fraud via the courts, the armed forces and the police. The state left religions alone to flourish, to diversify and to prosper, and individuals had the liberty to change churches at their own discretion. Unfortunately, as so often happens, some religious persons opted to use the state to interfere with the religious choices of their fellow citizens.
This brings me to the second and more challenging step: Keep religion out of government!
Let me offer one powerful example: government schools.
The Irish Potato Famine of 1845 brought droves of Irish Catholics to American shores. Under the leadership of Horace Mann, Protestants decided to take it upon themselves to "save the children" from the Pope by institutionalizing compulsory state education, even though private education had proven its own effectiveness over the previous two centuries. This marked a turning point in American history and set the stage for de facto mixing of state and church via government schools.
Of course, the integrity of our Constitution doomed this attempt to use government schools to teach religious dogma. It took decades of efforts by organizations like the American Civil Liberties Union and the American Atheists to undo this mess and the task just never seems to end. We can point directly to the institutionalized state education in the middle of the 19th century as a primary catalyst in this mixing of church and state.
This brings me to the third and most challenging step: Reduce the intrusive role of government in civil society!
Most advocates of separation of church and state consistently support the idea that religion needs to remain a private choice. But those same advocates contend that education, welfare, health care and a whole range of other values that once remained private choices should, somehow, some way, not remain private choices! They oppose faith in God but not faith in government.
We all need to awaken from the slumber of forced government solutions and realize that freedom works! As I stand here and look at all the people in this room wearing free market clothing, eating free market food and preparing to head to their free market homes, I can say with total and complete confidence that individuals remain quite capable of making their own choices with respect to their spirits, their hearts, their minds and their bodies. We need not only a much smaller government confined to defending individuals from force and fraud, but also a level field of law that applies equally to both religious and secular institutions.
In conclusion, I encourage everyone here to implement the three steps to a more free and rational country:
1. Keep government out of religion
2. Keep religion out of government
3. Reduce the intrusive role of government in civil society
I look forward to working with all of you to make this happen.
Recommended Reading
1. Coulson, Andrew. Market Education: The Unknown History (Studies in Social Philosophy & Policy, No. 21).
2. Gatto, John Taylor. The Underground History of American Education.
3. Richman, Sheldon. Separating School and State.