Srippers not reliable

Good post, AN. I agree that it's often impossible to state exactly what you mean on a board like this. Posts would be so long that nobody would read them. The other issue that complicates matters is that words often have connotations that alter their meanings slightly, and that those connotations are often regional in nature. For example, elsewhere some of us were discussing if there was any difference between a plain girl and a homely girl. According to the dictionary the two words are synonomous. To me they aren't necessarily the same although they can be - I can take what I think of as a plain girl, fix her up in a nice hairdo, makup and sexy outfit and she may no longer be plain. But if I do the same thing with the homely girl she's still going to be homely. That's a distinction that those two words connote to me. But maybe not to you.

And it's funny that you raised my comments about rape just now. I just finished reading a novel ("Three Blind Mice" by Ed McBain) wherein the hero refuses to have sex with a willing girl because she is drunk and he would consider it to be rape to have sex with her in that condition. That goes beyond even my definition, but I'm sure there are college administrators who agree with him. Words often mean different things to different people.

Can't let a "fight" pass without a comment. I agree with Yoda to an extent that you should consider your language carefully since he is right, we cannot judge by anything other than the words you post what you mean. I also agree with FONDL that a certain posting personality can emerge and we can infer a lot of meaning just from common use, in fact it is almost impossible for language to operate without inference. The back and forth that bothers me is when someone clearly is expressing an opinion (FONDL's "I consider lying to get sex similar to rape"/"It should be treated that way" is an example that we may all remember) and others argue as if he is trying to impose a re-definition on the public at large. Of course some of this can be because the poster may need to be a bit more clear in subsequent posts that he is arguing about his OPINION, or that the other poster should remember the original post was an opinion, and not stated as a fact that he is obligated to accept. Most of what we argue about are opinions and generalizations to begin with, it'd be pretty boring if we didn't, but I think we need to remember that typing leaves out about 90% of how humans communicate, so it is pretty safe to assume that you are missing something that was intended.

Chandler: Most of the time I can too, I just don't always feel that it's germane to the argument to let the generalization pass without comment.

I realize that most other posters tune FONDL and I out when we start going back and forth on some of these issues but that's the nature of a chat board.

It would be really boring if every post was "I like girls with breasts", "yeah, me too", "yeah, me three", "OK, count me in as well".

FONDL: I think we have both exercised our right to simply walk away from an argument many times...

I'm an adult, so I can usually tell for myself when somebody is generalizing without the need for a lot of qualifying words being dropped into every sentence.

Yoda, I guess you put a lot more thought into your posts than I do. Frankly I don't think it's worth the time or effort. And I don't care if anyone agrees with me or not, in fact I'd probably lose interest if everyone always did, that would get pretty boring. Sometimes I dont even agree with my own posts the next time I read them. To me that's all part of the fun. But if you want to be picky, I'll play along when I feel like it. But when I see no one else participating in our dialog, I'll probably drop out too. Which doesn't imply that I've condeded the argument, just that I've lost interest in it.

FONDL: words mean what they mean, not what you want them to mean. All I can read are your posts, not your mind. I can't promise that I won't disagree with you when I don't agree with what you post. I read your words and respond with my thoughts on them, just as I do with everybody else.

You can't just post whatever you like and just expect everybody to agree with you. I happen to agree with you a often on some topics but words like "most" imply a majority and, if I don't agree with that, I'm going to call you on it every time.

I don't know about you but I don't choose my words for the sake of expediency. I take my time, think about what I'm trying to say, and try to be clear about. People can either agree or not. That's what boards like this are all about.

It seems to be a bigger problem for you than it is for me. You can always put me on ignore.

Chandler, it's been my observation that the capture rate in clubs is usually a function of money, not age. Rich old guys seem to do quite well with attractive young strippers. And thanks for adding that second paragraph. I knew someone had made that point earlier but I was too lazy to look for it. Anyway I agree.

Yoda, can we make a deal? When I make a generalization, for the sake of brevity I mean to imply that words like "most" or "many" or "usually" or "often" are understood even though they aren't explicitly stated. I'm trying to imply tendencies not absolutes, recognizing that hardly anything is ever always true all of the time. Everyone here but you seems to understand that. So if you will promise to infer from my comments what I'm attempting to imply without my having to be explicit, I'll do the same with you, and it will save us both aggrevation in the future. And we can stop annoying everyone else here with our petty disagreements over the exact meanings of words. Besides, it seems to me that we usually agree on most things stripper-wise. Thanks.

I don't think the thrill wanes with age so much as the capture rate. And yes, everything in a strip club is an illusion. My favorite clubs strike enough of a balance between challenge and sure thing to keep it interesting.

Back on topic, I made the point way upthread that strippers can be fiecely reliable when something or someone they care about is at stake. You'd have to be deceiving yourself to always dismiss their unreliability as forgivable flakiness, and not a clear sign that they don't care very much about the person they're letting down.

FONDL: It's all about word selection!

I think the "thrill of the hunt" wanes with age. Some of us older guys are too tired to hunt, we prefer a sure thing. That's why I like regulars. I also think that when you're talking about strip clubs, the "thrill of the hunt" is an illusion. But than maybe everything is.

But to return to the original question (so I don't get accused yet again of hijacking a thread, would I ever do that?) are strippers on average any less reliable than other women their age? I suspect that when they are sober and when they perceive something to be in their own best interests, many (sorry but I have to remember to add words like "many" or "some" so Yoda doesn't accuse me of generalizing) strippers can be pretty reliable. Maybe it's just that a lot of the things that they're asked by customers to do aren't perceived to be in their own best interests. Or maybe some of them are rarely sober.

Ah, the thrill of the hunt: Armed only with his "nice guy" manners and a wallet full of green backs for backup the TUSCLite pathetic loser bravely heads into the local strip club. Will tonight be his night? Will he find a poor, desperate woman, will to give him cheap sex and phony affection in return to for cash? Could be the basis for a great tv show, don't you think?

Chandler. It sounds like you pretty much go for the same reasons I do. Context however is everything. The context in which you used the phrase "thrill of the hunt" made it appear that you where referring to finding girls to get with OTC. I was speaking in general terms, not specifically about you.

Chandler. It sounds like you pretty much go for the same reasons I do. Context however is everything. The context in which you used the phrase "thrill of the hunt" made it appear that you where referring to finding girls to get with OTC. I was speaking in general terms, not specifically bout you.

Damn...you guiys are having fun with this..I should post more often..LOL

Yoda: I was simply offering a reason why Shekitout's ordeal might still be preferable to an escort, and not for the reason FONDL suggested. For me, "the thrill of the hunt" in strip clubs is all about finding the hottest strippers and getting them over next to me. For anything OTC, I'm an opportunist, not a hunter.

"Yoda: That uncertainty makes the hunt interesting, sort of like real life. Hiring a pro might remove the thrill for some along with the uncertainty."

I agree Chandler but if it's all about "the hunt" that is pretty much admitting that you go to a strip club looking for an OTC score. I don't. I'm not really interested in the hunt at this point in my life, just some strange ass once in a while. There is still uncertainty when you hire an escort-at least the first time with a particular woman. Yes, you know you are going to have sex but that's about all you know.

"Your poor planning is not my emergency."

I'll have to try that line the next time a stripper says she couldn't "be right back" as promised because she ran into a guy who wanted to take her to the VIP room.

Just an aside on the whole e-mail and phone and iresponsible behavior among the young issue. The first day of my class I hand out syllabi, and put on the board, and put up as the first slide in the first lecture the following phrase;

"Your poor planning is not my emergency."

Still the last minute "I need more time" and "I had to do blank" pleas to excuse a late assignment or re-schedule a test come in for the entirety of the class. Each of them seems to assume that I will drop everything to return their call, excuse their negligence, or help them with a question they've had a week to answer but left to the last minute.

I guess part of my point was that there are so many more outlets for being unreliable than when life was simpler.

Vis-a-vis both strippers and boomers, adolescence can last for decades now instead of a few years. So perhaps it is the eternal issue of the younger generation - except that now there are a lot more 25 and 55 year olds among them.

Chandler, "adolescence can last for decades now instead of a few years"

Amen to that. I also agree that we're removing a lot of the incentive to behave responsibly, both in social pressure and in mitigating the harmful effects of irresponsible behavior, so I guess we shouldn't be surprised.

Yoda: That uncertainty makes the hunt interesting, sort of like real life. Hiring a pro might remove the thrill for some along with the uncertainty.

Chandler, Middleaged baby boomers you will note were part of those whom I consider less reliable and more spoiled and self indulgent. I will however offer a limited defense of those who ignore communications via e-mail. I get a lot of crap for never answering my phone. I have the ringer turned off and the answering machine on. If you need to contact me a brief message saying "hey, call me" will get a response at my earliest convenience. If however you simply called to chat I don't see the fact that I have a phone obligates me to be instantly available to anyone who chooses to call me. I feel the same about e-mail. I will usually answer ones that have specific questions or concerns at my earliest convenience, but a link to an article, a website, jokes, etc don't create any sense of obligation in me. In a sense we are still working out e-mail and net etiquette. Far too often I find that people feel entitled to more attention than a dashed off e-mail would obligate one to. For the most part I consider an e-mail the equivilent of a postcard.

AN: Everyone is less reliable nowadays. I know of several middle-aged people who don't answer their email half the time.

Yoda: "However, every dancer you may want to have sex with isn't going to be available, in fact, the vast majority won't be. "

WTF? Either things are really different where Yoda lives or the guy is totally repulsive, b/c, round these parts at least, you should be able to get over 50% interested in sex if you play your cards right.

Well, sometimes I just want to fuck the girl from the club too. However, every dancer you may want to have sex with isn't going to be available, in fact, the vast majority won't be. Sadly, that won't stop some of these ladies from leading you to believe it could happen even if they have no intention of delivering. I take any offer from a dancer for OTC with a grain of salt. It's worked out a number of times for me over the years-both for free and for money (usually for money).

Bones, Chandler, I think it is both the eternal problem of young people AND that recent generations, starting with the baby boomers, have been more spoiled and more self indulgent and more irresponsible than previous ones. The late boomers kids, those in their early 20's right now seem to me to be getting worse.

FONDL: Maybe he wants to fuck a girl he's met in a strip club. An escort is a much different experience, isn't it? You seem to be forgetting that sex happens between the ears. And I don't believe Shekitout has ever denied paying for it, which by the way, other guys distignuish by calling a spade a spade.

Sheik: Still think she's going to be your "friend with benefits", old man?

Yoda, you and I seem to be the only ones who agree with that point of view. Seems to me this gets back to that whole bias against "paying" for sex, whatever that means. We've had that discussion here at least twice that I recall, and I still don't understand how some guys distinguish between "paying" and "not paying."

Go to her parents' place and ask them where their whore daughter is and why she didn't show up to fuck you for $300 like she agreed.

Go home and jerk off. Then, the next time, hire a professional.

Had OTC set up for date & time-I show up but she's not there. She forgot to tell me she had to work at her parents place. This after I had asked her to let me know if she couldn't meet me. A pisser but whatcha gonna do? Turn her into the police, tell the club management, what, what?

Which generation ran up a 9 trillion dollar national debt?

BD: You're right, she's still a stripper. Dependable or not, dancers dance for money. Treating them well and tipping them well may get you more attention inside the club but you should ever assume it will lead to anything else.

Bigdawg: She may appreciate it, just not to the extent you had hoped. What Yoda says is absolutely right. Furthermore, when strippers sense that you're expecting it to lead to more, some will lead you on until they get what they want out of you and your false impression.

"I thought if I tipped her better than most and treated her with respect she would appreciate it. "

On the contrary: strippers will respond to such behavior by marking you as a chump.

Well after all the B. S. of trying to help a young girl with no credit and no paystubs get a new car we had an argument about her lack of freindship and seeing me outside of the club. My mistake, I thought if I tipped her better than most and treated her with respect she would appreciate it. I forgot that even though see seemed sweet she's still a stripper.

FONDL: That's the kind of girl I like, too. Always has been, since long before I knew any strippers, although strippers take uneliability to a whole new level. Back then, I learned to enjoy being with them when they were around, but not to waste my time and emotions waiting for them, making plans, etc. Some girls seemed to catch on and act a little more responsibly, but to think you can teach them a lesson and change them only leads to more aggravation. Only with age and adult responsibilities will they change. And you're right, they lose some of their charm along with their unreliability.

By the way, ever notice how fiercely reliable strippers become when something (or somebody) they passionately want is at stake?

Strippers are inherently flaky. So are most women that age. You can train them to be better and more respectful, however. Just don't get angry at them for it: but at the same time show that you won't tolerate it either. For example, I mean if they say they are going to be at the club at a certain time and they aren't don't wait around for them. She'll know what she did wrong and behave better next time.

chandler actually offers good advice in this thread.

Thanks men...I 'm trying to help a stripper get a car....you know help her she feeels likei'm her buddy...:-) :-) I'm not giving her any money..just helping with the connection.. any way she just called me...I'll update you tomorrow...night.....

SC: Ain't that sweet!

"most strippers are not reliable" -- you are pretty fucking smart, aren't you? Did you figure this out all by yourself?

One of the things that I really used to enjoy about my ATF was her spontaneity, she was totally unpredictable. And also unreliable. Now that she's older (and off drugs) she's not like that anymore. And while I really like the person she's become, there are times that I miss the old Funny Girl. So I don't mind the unreliability if I know that's how she is and if she has other qualities that more than make up for it. So what if she doesn't always show up if you have a great time when she does. The great times are worth putting up with the aggravation. Anyway that's been my experience.

FONDL: Sometimes it's not about you ONLY because you're one of the vast group of men she'd just as soon dump on. When you realize that, I say it's time to forget about having anything but commercial dealings with her, if you're still interested.

I can handle unreliable. That's easy. My solution is to not rely on them. I never count on a particular dancer to be at the club. When she says she'll "be right back", I'll welcome her back unless somebody else comes by first. If she wants to meet somewhere, I'll agree to it only if we walk out the door together. After that, if she wastes my time being "unreliable", I won't chase after her. If she shows up somewhere and all I have to do is fall on her, that's about as much as I'll invest. All of this probably sounds hopelessly cynical, but it's made my dealings with strippers largely stress-free, and totally fun-packed.

Take an average 20 year old, add drugs and alcohol, and voila! you've got unreliable. Never take a stripper slight personally - it's not about you, it's all about her. If you can't handle unreliable, stay away from strippers. The two go together, it's a package deal.

Some strippers derive a perverse pleasure from snubbing customers. Maybe they feel powerless in other areas of their lives, so teasing and denying men is one way they can compensate. And of course it feeds their ego when the guy keeps coming back for more in spite of being treated like shit. You can't help but detect it when a stripper points out some guy in the club with a wounded puppy look and tells how she agreed to meet him at Denny's last week, but decided to go to a party instead.

When you're on the receiving end of even a minor slight, it can feel like this is the ONLY motivation for strippers. Of course it's not, but you can go crazy trying to tell when it's nothing you should take personally or when you're being played in an eighth grade drama.

It's not just strippers. It seems to be young people in general. When I was bartending it was taken for granted that most of the younger waiters and waitresses would be late to work, not have their shirts pressed, they never had corkscrews (as required). I've noticed it teaching too. The younger students are far less prepared than the older ones (in general, there are good and bad students in both demographics). With strippers it may be a bit more pronounced since many of them are also less employable and less educated than their peers, but overall I don't see a great deal of difference.

I agree that it's an issue, especially with younger girls. You have to realize that a major part of the attraction of dancing as a job is that you can earn enough money in one or two days to pay your bills and party for the rest of the week. It's easy for a dancer to blow-off Wednesday if she made $1000 on Monday or Tuesday (or both!). This is less of a problem with women who are a bit older, have families to support or are in school and have a lot of bills to pay. The attraction of dancing is that you can pretty much work when you want and not go in when you don't want to.

Then again there is always the plain simple truth that dancing as a job sucks and most girls who do it would rather not. If they can take a day off they generally will. I have my favs and most of them keep a fairly regular schedules but I always have a plan B when I go to a club.

Bones: You sound like you believe it's THIS younger generation, not the eternal issue of young people being unreliable, which AN put it down to (and I mostly agree). Is that what you meant?