A Dancer's Perspective on Extras
trixxi
former stripper is now an internet slut
Even though extras are an everyday occurrence where I work, they are still illegal and the risk of being caught results in possible arrest and definite 86 from the club. As mature dancers know, that even in a town that has over 60 strip clubs in the metropolitan alone, losing the chance to dance at a club where you are currently making money is a path to disaster. Even though one could say that these girls are potentially prostitutes already for their actions in the club, when these girls lose their chance to dance they are forced to prostitution on the streets. Fortunately, not all extras dancers are prostitutes and not all prostitutes were dancers before they became prostitutes, therefore some dancers are able to practice extras in the club, discretely and basically get away with “light” prostitution for a short period of time. Extras customers need to keep this in mind, that discretion is key to an dancer longevity in the club.
It is more likely that more dancers rather than less dancers practice extras on a regular basis. Dancers are the most discerning, as they know which patrons are worth providing extra services for. For example, many dancers would not want to waste their time for a cheap customer demanding a $20 hand job, which is humiliating, demoralizing, demeaning and risky. Most dancers are not interested in taking the risk unless it is a trusted customer and “guaranteed” income. The same dancer who refuses a $20 hand job may go much further, but with a different customer who she has an established dancer – patron relationship with. However, there is a good amount of incredibly loose dancers who provide extras for all customers, without discretion or increase in cost, simply because they know that they can get away with doing it for the time being. Many of these more ‘loose’ dancers are nearing the age when most patrons would rather not see these dancers stripping, but even so, many patrons know that this dancer is very loose and giving with extras, so she continues to strip and make money to even finance the illusion that she should continue to “strip” in the first place. I have heard such comments from dancers about the “looser” dancers like, “I hate when customers are talking to me after a lap dance from her, their face is just wet with her juices and all I can smell is her pussy on their lips!” Many dancers know what their coworkers do, who will go so far and who will go further, just as some dancers know which one of their coworkers really are prostitutes.
The dancers that are morally opposed to extras tend to tattle on their coworkers, even though they know that it is likely that they do the same actions, but just in private without getting caught. Their reason for tattling is an attempt to 86 those dancers because the “cleaner” dancers see the “dirtier” dancers as a huge money threat to the game and the strip club system. Extras dancers know that at this time and place, they are the real game players and by not practicing extras, you are choosing to walk away from the small amount of money that is left in the strip club industry pie. The real strip club game is practicing extras behind management back. I have heard extras dancers defend other extras dancers with comments like “don’t hate the player, hate the game; if you can’t play the game don’t hate the player who plays the game.”
Eventually, all dancers reach a point when they either chose to retire, are 86’d from multiple clubs in town, or are forced to retire because as they age and continue to strip they no longer make any money. You could say this is retirement by choice but I see retirement by choice as a dancer who can willingly return to the industry and potentially still make money, compared to retirement by age as a dancer who has reached a point when stripping is a waste of time for her efforts put into it. Dancing costs each dancer a small amount of money, whether the patrons are aware of it or not. Besides the known stage fees that dancers must pay upfront, many dancers tend to be customers of the club. Buying food and drinks in the downtime as well as buying manicures and outfits is all parts of ways that dancing can cost more than is returned. If dancers fall into bad spending habits such as routinely buying cigarettes, gambling, drinking, drug use and buying from vendors who sell wares to the dancers, then it is likely that they are not making any money at all, with the little that they do make being spent rapidly.
Multiple motivations come from different dancers in regards to extras, and dancers can change their mind moment by moment, without hesitation. Dancers are desperate people, who careered dancers know eventually work for much less than minimum wage. The demands of being a dancer can be as hard or as easy as the given dancer perceives, depending on club obligation. Several clubs have severe penalty fees for not following rules, scheduling or beautifying standards upheld by the club. Clubs profit from the dancers directly and indirectly; outwardly patrons agree that the dancer presence is what brings them into the club. But besides that, dancer stage fees, penalty fees, and their orders as customers are all direct profits to the club. When the clubs profit so much just from having the dancers come in, some dancers make extreme amounts while other dancers fall by the margins and barely make $8 a day to leave the club with. So the dancers that are making gross amounts find the fees agreeable as they are willing to pay them in order to work there, and because these girls do pay the fees, the club assumes that ALL girls should pay the fees, regardless of whether or not they are doing well that particular night, fees must still be paid nightly.
I have heard of multiple types of penalty fees, one dancer mentioned that one particular club charged the dancers $5 a minute for the time that they were “late” in starting their shift, which meant being ready and on stage at a particular time. Dancers are typically late people, and this particular club profits off the late dancers, as well as the timely dancers who happen to be stuck in traffic or other unusual circumstances on their way to the club. Another club changes the amount of money that dancers receive on dances based on how drunk and how lenient that particular dancer was. The club management threaten the dancer with their supposed video footage of the dancer’s prostitution acts and then take increasingly more money from the dancer per dances that she gets. Another well known club has penalty fees for dancers who do not uphold specific beauty standards before their shift, these standards can change day to day as well. Dancers are weighed before their shift and charged penalty fees for gaining weight or threatened to lose shifts until they are a certain weight.
And just as fees must be paid nightly, stages must always be filled with dancers, even if there are no patrons in the club, even if there are no tipping patrons in the club, the dancer presence is in the most physically demanding during stage sets. Depending on the club, there will be more or less dancers; clubs with more dancers have dancers who appear on stage less while clubs with less dancers have dancers who appear on stage more. This results in a club where there are girls routinely on stage filling the needed dancer presence who are not tipped. Patrons have seen all four dancers within a twenty minute period, and if they want to enjoy their time gambling, drinking, and smoking, they are going to ignore the dancers that they quickly have become bored with, and maybe even have already tipped. Bartenders are fooled into believing these customers who are not interested in dancers, are interested in dancer stage presence, so some dancers may be on stage often to a crowd that couldn’t bother to care. So after a long day of dancing for uninterested patrons, these dancers still owe the club money, and the club isn’t in the least grateful for the “time” that the girls gave to keep the empty stages filled. Just like any older employee who is taken for granted by his employer; the older dancers are no different.
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26 comments
This here is totally unacceptable:
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The club management threaten the dancer with their supposed video footage of the dancer’s prostitution acts and then take increasingly more money from the dancer per dances that she gets.
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This is extortion. It is criminal.
The other two types of threatening and fining you mention are also very bad.
The people who run these clubs know what the dancers do. They know that with things as they are that they wouldn't be able to have dancers and they wouldn't be able to have a club, unless these things were going on. They have build VIP Rooms in order to allow such acts, and then to have plausible deniability.
I have never seen a case of a dancer who became a street hooker, or a street hooker who was a dancer. Where I am LE is very tough on street hookers and on SC's. We get some street hookers, mostly black, who come down to some areas of San Jose from the East Bay. Some are not bad looking. I've not partaken, but they give me business cards with 1-800 numbers and the write their fee schedules on the back. There is not much line between street hookers and escorts today. We know that many strippers do end up also being escorts. But between street hookers and strippers, at least where I am there is still a line.
We get some who blow in from out of town and work out of motels. But in all cases, LE feels free to arrest them without any evidence that any law has been broken. We are all living in a state of martial law.
If we had lots of strip clubs and if some had adjacent motels, and if they let the girls come and go as they please, then probably they wouldn't really have defined shifts and the girls would work from opening to closing and they would do as much motel action as possible. Yes, then it probably would feel like they were basically just like street hookers.
Lots of porn stars retire into careers as "sex educators" and they write and make videos. Escorts do this too. I think strippers probably still try to keep their past concealed, as I know.
But there are lots of pro-sex women writers, like Suzy Bright for example. And then the novelist Catherine Texier I have always found interesting. She has an affinity for all sorts of sex workers. And then of course there is Anais Ninn and all the people and sorts of places she writes about.
The SC's where I live are zero touching and they are strict. So I learned to live with that and to fully accept it. Some of the girls advertise OTC availability. But as I have found the overwhelming majority are quite available for civilian dating. They are not unapproachable our out of one's social reach at all.
One dancer I talked with for a long time, with she and another dancer. She asked, "Why would you want a relationship with a stripper?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectator_M…
If you talk to some older dancers from the Bay Area they will remember Spectator Magazine. I used to weekly walk into one of our porn stores just to buy it and read it. Their feature articles were usually dancer interviews.
One Dave Patrick took most of the pictures, and he wrote some of the articles too. He was kind of the representative for the ordinary horny guys who liked strip clubs. Back like in the 80's he wrote one about dating strippers. The example he gave was an extreme one, a girl who works in these peep show places where you put in money and get just a little bit of viewing time. So it is hard to even talk to her.
His take on it was that basically she probably is quite dateable and probably very likeable. Only thing is, because of where she works, there will be a few more hoops to jump through before being able to get anywhere with her, like getting her phone number. This was before cell phones. He then did advise that there would be some who would be changing their phone number every week and would be telling stories of he dangerous ex's who were stalking them. Of this small portion, Patrick said you should run, not walk, to get away from them. But otherwise they were quite ordinary.
What Patrick did not answer was the question, "Why would you want to date a stripper?"
I know what the answer is, at least for me. I like strippers. I like them not just for what they do on the job. I just like them. They are outcasts, just like I am. They may not admit it and they may not understand it. But they are still outcasts. All sex workers are outcasts. So if you want to make something new happen, they are good people to try and get involved.
People who have read my posts know that I am not into the "extras" approach to SC's. I was skeptical when it surfaced here in SF. It seemed like moving from lap sitting in the front room, to extras in booths, was just a way to radically run up the costs, and to let the house take a much deeper cut.
Also, if I like a girl, HJ / BJ is not what I am generally going to want to do with her. Maybe if there is some reason that we cannot do FS, and so she and I both understand that this is going to be a rehearsal for what we will be doing very soon, like say after Aunt Flo leaves, then okay. But other wise I don't really go for that. I was happy in Sunnyvale just with talking and flirting.
And I was extremely happy in our AMPs flirting with the girls, kissing them, and then doing FS with them. And so I was even more skeptical when it became known that in some of the SF clubs they were building totally private rooms. I was always skeptical about the costs and the time allowed, and about the other external parameters which influence how good FS-ITC is likely to be.
Here on this TUSCL Forum I am surprised to learn how much FS-ITC there is in so many other areas of the country. But I am still skeptical of the quality of it. The posts I read hear further fuel my skepticism because I see that these guys don't flirt with the girls, they don't try to court them or come on to them, and they don't try to makeout with them. Mostly they are just responding to the girl's verbal pitch.
Well, when it is set up that way, I wouldn't expect much of the whole thing, FS in only the most technical of senses. And I have read accounts which strongly suggest that the dancers don't even consider such acts as being sex.
AMPs are not really intending to offer escort sessions, not GFE. But if one can manipulate the selection process and let the girl see that you are only there because of her, and if you can court her some and come on to her, and start kissing her gently and purposefully as early on as possible, then it will be better than GFE. It will be GFA ( girlfriend audition ).
I've written about one S.F. Korean who was showing off her extreme eye makeup for me through the front door viewing hatch.
http://i2.wp.com/cosmetics.pk/wp-content…
http://i0.wp.com/cosmetics.pk/wp-content…
When they finally opened the door, she was not there. But I insisted on her. So when they bought her out, she was already giddy. But I still had to wait till she finished with someone else. So I held her up against the wall in the massage room and kept kissing her, until she agreed to be back quickly. She had after all deprived the other girls of a chance at the session, with her front door antics. So she was supposed to let them take care of me. But I didn't really give her much choice. What ensued was beyond description. It gets like this when one can get the girl off script.
I've written about another Korean locally. I was just going to cruise the place. But then I saw her cutting hair through the front window. Then later when we were in the massage room, she was not accustomed to the idea that her job description included FS. She and I never spoke a single word about what was to ensue. No reason to. She didn't like being cornered, so I just sat down and we kept talking to her. When she finally yielded and the shoulders dropped, what ensued was sweet beyond description. Deeply emotionally moving to do that with her.
What I learned from all of these AMP experiences, and the talking and flirting experiences in the local SC's, was how to relate to women. I had not had enough such experiences before I was married, and so I was in a living hell and I did not know how to change it.
But as I gained the ability with these girls, I also saw that I needed to stop and start trying to make my marriage work. I don't think P4P is really a solution to anything. I don't think one should make it their primary source of sexual gratification.
I also think the people have to know each other some. In all of these AMP experiences, the natural and expected outcome of the session is that both people will want to start sleeping together immediately. And what I would have liked would have been to do exactly that with them, and to have made it clear that that was what was going to happen, that night if at all possible.
I think it bad when guys are using money to put up an emotional barrier between themselves and the girl, and especially when what they are looking for is just the endorphin rush which comes with ejaculation. I think this is perverted.
About dancers being against those who do extras, we have this. It is an entire hierarchy of those criticizing the ones who go beyond what they do. Myself, I try very hard to catch myself if I am saying things which contribute to these types of prejudice.
http://jezebel.com/tearing-down-the-whor…
I believe that the author now works at the Mustang Ranch.
You talked about discretion, how dancers want to keep what they do concealed. They need to do this, even though the club management must know exactly what is going on. This again is why I remain skeptical about the quality available in SC FS.
But you are also speaking of another type of discretion, being selective about who they do what with.
Londoner's FKK Article
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=2…
Back on Londoner's thread you spoke about how you would love to work in a German FKK club for a 2 or 3 week stint. Well, that it would be just for 2 or 3 weeks makes it sound more like you would be looking for an adventure, rather than for a new career. I think probably you were just being facetious.
When advocates for decriminalization speak, what they most seem to want is absolute control over the negotiating process from beginning to end. I think this is not just a concern about leaving money on the table, it is because that negotiating is the courtship. It is when they decide if they want to service the person, and it is when they try to build some rapport in order to make it go well. They don't want anyone else in the middle setting up expectations by representing them.
So usually sex worker advocates don't like brothels. I have even met women who have worked in the Nevada houses, and they don't like them.
Wouldn't it be fun to live in Amsterdam? You could just venture out each day, and make friends with the women, and then session sometimes. These are the types of places they like, where they can work as independent contractors and pay their own expenses, and talk to the perspectives when they are in the windows.
http://georgehirschlifestyle.com/9/amste…
But as good as this looks, a strip club could be even better, as it is a somewhat protected indoor environment, and it allows for free form fraternization. Also, the women can try to make money from the front room.
I have talked much about how at the most extreme black FS places, the girls come and sit in your lap and try to get you to makeout with them. Others have confirmed that it is like this, and that it is not restricted to the black clubs.
Well, if done like that one could really take some time and get to know a girl, and pay her some, and really get her softened up. Then what would occur after retreating to a private cabana would be phenomenal. It would not be "extras"-FS. It would not be a service at all, as she could be gotten completely off of script. It would be fantastic and live changing.
P4P sex is not in an of itself the solution to anything. But it does give one an alternate perspective, and it can be liberating to partake of it from time to time. If a girl can be that open, bodily and emotionally, then one can learn from her and just relate to the world completely differently.
I got this when in the early SF lap dancing days I saw this lovely little black girl up on stage open tongue kissing another dancer. Then when she was on my lap I told her how much that had effected me and how I felt it throughout my entire body. She told me how much she had enjoyed it, and things proceeded from there, and I have never been the same since.
Sex workers perform an absolutely necessary function. It is has been like this since the earliest civilizations built their cities with their temples at the center.
But that there is gender politics between men and women which restricts sex while at the same time keeping the birth rate propped up, is tragic. There are evils which our society perpetrates, especially in the realm of economics and using gender roles to control people. P4P sex shows one that it could be otherwise, but it does not solve the problem.
My own SC and AMP experiences showed me that things could and should be otherwise, but these institutions alone are not going to fix the problems.
In the end men and women and civilians and pros are all victims of the same sorts of societal unfairness. I read the stuff TUSCL people post and I can see that they are angry about how much money some strippers make, the very ones they are handing money to and engaging in sex acts with. They don't really understand the situation. These girls are really just asking to be fairly compensated for what they are giving up.
If we want real change, as I do, then we have to start building some new social institutions and we have to start finding new ways that men and women can relate in partnership. This is where my own efforts are going.
Thank you Trixxi for your excellent article. Every time you post it ads so much to the quality of the discussions we can have on TUSCL. I hope others will be making replies on this thread.
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/
SJG
ex-Doors Moscow 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj8QX80Os…
Wasn't me. LOL.
That sounded too familiar. Where in Portland could that be?
I can't write a review of that place, though, where cameras were installed.
What I differ in POV with dancers; is that dancers often seem to expect customers to spend money on them b/c they (dancers) have it so rough. Most custies work for a living and only have a particular budget for spending in SCs. Custies should spend their mostly fixed budget how it’s best for them and not the dancers – i.e. I don’t think custies should be guilt-tripped into spending $$$ on dancers they are not attracted to just b/c the dancers have it tough and are not making $$$.
Reflection on Trixxi's article and recent posts: If we had some dancers living in adjacent motels, and going in and out, then they would come across like street hookers and they could be those likely to someday end up homeless. But it never goes quite that far here, not even at the most extreme dives we have ever had. ( George's Rockin' Robin, no more )
About NOLA I have read of places on Bourbon St. where they are getting pretty far out the front door to make package grabs. I would think that that indicates a FS establishment. But these are not that city's most notorious addresses. They are the place with lots of foot traffic.
I saw some video of the sidewalk outside the TJ Hong Kong Bar. Maybe when things are slow their dancers do put on dresses or school uniforms and stand out on the sidewalk in front. The ones there in this video sure looked good enough to dance in any SC I have ever been in.
Places like Sacramento and Fresno are much tougher towns than San Jose. We have had some dancers come from there, and they do come across as case hardened and street wise. They do solicit openly for OTC's too.
Sacramento has two nude / no alcohol clubs, and Fresno has two topless / alcohol clubs. I don't really know what they are like though. At one of the Sacramento clubs people do make it sound like it could be an extreme dive and it may not be far from what Trixxi is describing.
One of the Sacramento girls was one of the smartest of the Sunnyvale dancers, R. She actually used to sit and talk to me for hours, without asking for dances or asking for anything really. For free. I never came on to her or anything like that. I did very much enjoy talking with her though. She was like the perfect geisha.
If I had worked things right, maybe I could have spent much of the last decade traveling around the world with R. on my arm, instead of in a nightmare of a marriage and being driven to the absolute breaking point in terms of what anyone could stand.
At AMPs they don't have to deal with people who are not prepared to pay. A little bit of window shopping is okay. But otherwise if you want to be there you have to pay and do a massage session. This is why in S.F. they have it so they have to buzz you in at the front door. So they don't have to deal with the sorts of things Trixxi is describing with people who aren't prepared to spend much.
But still, overall the SC model should work better. Free form fraternizing, and letting it be up to the girl herself how this is handled, should bring in more money as it is more fun because you and the girl can start relating to each other how ever you both wish.
In Portland the SC's are great, but the AMPs stink. Opposite of the Bay Area:
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…
Street of Shame
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048933/
Critically acclaimed and very interesting movie about post-war Tokyo. A lot of the stuff about money and rivalries between the women are like what Trixxi has described.
sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/
SJG
Thin Lizzy, live
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WulRA48x7…
It isn't necessary to tell the girls how to work the situation, or even that they should work the situation. What are these booths and VIP Rooms for anyway? If the customer's pants are not going to come down, why not just do it in the front room? That will let everyone see the grinding or boobies in the face, and that will help that dancer get more dances. She can even just walk up to a guy and start doing it, without getting any agreement up front. Then she can ask for a small tip. If one dancer does it this way, she will soon have collected all the available money herself.
So the booths and VIP Rooms are to help the house get money, and sometimes to actually slow the actual mileage down and impose a ceiling. In other situations they are to allow more to happen.
Build it, and the girls will come to put it to its proper and intended use. These club owner know exactly how the facilities will be used.
Here I suggest a way to build a new type of mongering venue and get around Adult Entertainment Regs and Regs on Massage Parlors. It will combine the best from SC's, AMPs, and Lingerie Modeling. No need to tell the girls what they are to do. They will figure it out and adapt to it very quickly.
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/
SJG
DP, Woman From Tokyo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIliB4363…
I always like the organ part in their music
I feel like this article, while definetely insightful and a good read, is trying to influence me to tip bigger and be more considerate to their financal woes, and while I can sympathize, I work too hard too throw away all my money just so you can get a third of it while big manager jim get's the other third and I still get less satisfaction than I hope since its non extra services. I say it's easier for all these girls to just quit while they aren't blackballed.
Jestrite; yes at my club I know of girls that do offer free services, and it is well known what kind of services are available (mostly 2 way oral sex). At my club there really is not a typical "tip" given for extra services. Only some patrons choose to tip on top of the standard $20 per song, and only few dancers will demand a tip whatsoever. Mostly the ones that demand it are ROBs.
Nelson: I agree that the environment is not a positive one for new dancers who think that they can get by just doing "air dances." I often see dancers wanting to make money and they are new to dancing all together, refusing simple things like showing their vagina ever. Not during lap dances, not for X amount of money, not at all ... So many customers would complain to me about how that new girl did'nt show them pussy and they were just dying to have it at that point. It can create unfair circumstances. But the girls have to realize what is going on and either choose to stay and play the game or exit it altogether. If the girl does not want to show her pussy, she does not have to, but she has to one day realize that the money potential decreases the more prudish one is in the strip club environment.
Estafador: thanks for your thoughts, I am not intending to influence anyone's tipping habits, I just wanted to share some thoughts of how dancers see extras going on around them. I always encourage all people in the clubs to tip as they see fit, and I am always grateful for what comes my way.
I agree on one hand about getting the hourly wage job, and I actually work about 25 hours a week doing an hourly wage job. But what I want to say is the potential as a young woman to make money is far greater dancing than in those hourly wage jobs. I personally have made more money stripping in a faster period than I ever have in any job prior. And I do not want to brag or boast but I have had all types of jobs from teaching both high school and community college students to working all aspects in a vitamin wholesale company. I have worked years in hotels doing everything from making reservations to cleaning the rooms, to cooking meals in the kitchen. I have no shame in cleaning toilets but I do think there is a fallacy in the American dream being applicable to a young woman who can also Strip; the opportunity for fast cash is just much more abundant if the woman is willing to take the risk.
Thanks again for all thoughtful comments!!! Happy clubbing friends
You've posted on another thread about places where the dancers are street hookers. I don't know if you mean that literally, but I can see how if the biz got tough enough there could come a point where a dancer could actually do better standing on the sidewalk out in front, than by being in the club. There is some minimum threshold of people coming in the front door and being willing to spend. If it drops below that, then something is wrong, and you can't blame this on that clubs dancers. Something else is going on.
Where I live and in San Francisco, the strip clubs have never been very competitive as there just are not that many of them. So it never gets to be anything like what you are describing in the dives.
You wrote, "At my club there really is not a typical "tip" given for extra services. Only some patrons choose to tip on top of the standard $20 per song, and only few dancers will demand a tip whatsoever. Mostly the ones that demand it are ROBs.
"
I don't really see a problem with this. I've had numerous conversations with people wanting something in a RedBook AAMP session which is not on the usual menu. Often it is things like BBBJ 'till completion and with swallow. They find that the girls in the Asian shops will just go as far as BBBJ. The guy says he is willing to pay more.
I tell them that that is the wrong way to go. If the girl is comfortable with you, she will do what she does, and at the usual price. If they say they want more for something, that is just a canned response, a way to divert the conversation. You should not be bidding into that, as it is not a serious offer. They have not actually even agreed in principle that they could do it. The reason for this is just that they have never done it before. They don't watch American porno movies.
There have been a few who will do it, and they do it at the standard price.
So I always tell them that for that you need to contact the white and black escorts. They will have no problem with such things, and they will do it at their standard price.
Now their standard price is usually higher, but this is not because they do more, mostly it is just because they are their own boss and can do less sessions and because they are better able to build up a base of well off regulars.
At AMPs the standard base price is $60 for the hour to the house and then $100 for the girl to be able to "do everything". Now probably that would not include BBBJTCCIMWS. But it includes all that they actually do.
The $100 is more of a psychological price floor. I say this because even when times are hard they aren't likely to be underbidding each other. They would rather just do nothing. It is something they associate with basic dignity. This minimum price is what keeps the girl in control of the situation. It is safer and easier for a girl to sell sex, than it is to give it away. Selling it she will have less problems, and get more takers too.
Sometimes they will try for more than $100, and that will make them feel nice. But if they like you and are comfortable with you, $100 will do it.
In his Guyamas Chronicles David Stuart is writing about their zone of tolerance in 1970. The agreed price floor was 100 pesos, for a little while ( por un ratito ). They would charge more on the weekends, but during the week 100 pesos did it. Again, a psychological number. It was about one day's wages for a working man.
So when you talk about doing more than just the basic dance in a strip club, then I would think the same sort of psychology is going to apply. There will be some psychologically driven price floor, and so then you are just paying that and for the dancer's time. So there really doesn't need to be extra money on top of that. If the girl likes you, she'll do what can be done and what you want, for some basic price, and this largely is just a factor of time. It may not be just the minimum dance fee, but it will be some generally agreed upon amount for an open ended sort of anything goes type of dance. She won't be trying to get more out of you based on the specifics of what that will entail.
I posted elsewhere about a time with one Taiwanese Angela, 23yo at the most, and clearly the hottest looking girl in the place. I had her pinned against the wall for DKFing. She and I were always up close and looking into each others eyes. She was intense like this. Without saying a word, I pressed into her hand a precounted $100. I was trying to economize and I wanted to get her at the base price. Just barely breaking eye contact with me and making no attempt to free herself, she pitched the money across the room, in the general direction of a small table. That was the most negotiation we were to have, and this is always the best way. We continued kissing and progressed for a very nice session. The whole thing you might describe as "explosive GFE". I relate this to say, that if the relationship with her is going well, she isn't really even thinking about money, and giving it to her is just a show of respect because it is her work place. She may indeed find ways to communicate that she doesn't care about the money.
I have always said that the ones who really want to press hard for more money, you don't want to deal with. Because even if you meet their price, what they do is not going to be done that well. And besides, you don't really want it to be choreographed as a service she is going to perform anyway.
Shadowcat's "Test Drives" thread:
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…
I also noted that in the book, Leaving Las Vegas, most of the higher priced sessions are set up without the girl, Sarah, even being seen. They are set up by a pimp. They people are willing to pay so much because they want to abuse her. And that they do.
Whereas on the other hand, one of her most memorable sessions was when she was working the street in Los Angeles. A Mexican man approached her, probably not even being there looking for such, just because he was really taken with her. He really liked her. She cut him a very nice rate, and what ensued was absolutely mind blowing and certainly changed the lives of both people. The money was really very low. Now it turns out that afterwards he did empty out his pockets and give her everything else he had, which made the money about double. But he might not have actually done that and he might not have had any more. The sessions she set up face to face, usually went real well because the guys just liked her. The text says, "She brings out the best in most of the guys she fucks."
For myself, reading Jestrite50's posts is causing me to reconsider how I have handled money in such situations and I see now how I could enjoy being freer about it. I find that there is much I can learn from his accounts.
So now I consider San Francisco. I had decided that even if it was available I was not going to try for FS, because I just don't feel comfortable about the way they are offering it. Time too short, cost too high, too much just bidding into a fantasy, too much money clearly going to the house, etc. And likewise I don't really need BJ / HJ, or dry humping. Just don't want to relate to them that way.
So figured that if I was getting on well with a dancer and she wanted more dances, then I'd just turn it around on her, and DATY her. Even if she wouldn't go for that, just suggesting it to her, using gentler language, is going to produce a visceral reaction. Even if she does do that sometimes, it is still not going to be that common. So it should have an effect on her.
So there was a sign posted which said the max dance price is $20 per song. But most of the dancers would say straight off, "$40 gets you a better dance". So the sign meant nothing. If you wanted two way touching and titties in the face, it had to be $40.
So when it came to DATY, what I wanted was more time, to be able to do it nicely. So the first one said, "Are you saying you want to eat me out?" I nodded yes. "Make me an offer". Okay, well I recognized right away that that violates cannons of professional conduct. A real professional knows what they are worth and won't hesitate to ask for it. But then this had been my intent anyway, to get her off of her professional script, to get her into new territory. So I offered something and it sounded like she wanted $80 for two songs. I talked her into $80 for three songs. I remain proud of myself for negotiating that kind of a deal. I was actually undercutting the $40 per song price, but I was still taking care of her well enough. And she was really awesome looking, and what I really wanted was her time, and a way to soften her up some.
It worked. The SF dancers are really case hardened. They have to be in order to be able to do their jobs, as so much money is potentially in play and as they are mostly having to deal with strangers. But DATY did soften her up and this was obvious in her posture and demeanor. She insisted that we go and sit on the couch and she snuggled up to me and let me talk rather dirty to her a bit. This was all essentially for free.
This one I would classify as Art School Student. But it worked essentially the same way with a second one who I would classify as Straight Up Working Girl, highly OTC oriented.
My point in this is that if one is getting on well with a girl, she really isn't going to try hard to get money out of you. She will just expect what is customary, and mostly it just comes down to the time involved and showing her some respect. And so as long as a guy is willing to pay for enough time to do something nicely, then it comes as no surprise to me that she would just let him do what he wants. That can be real nice.
Whereas the one who is trying to find ways to demand more, is probably someone you don't want to deal with at all.
But what does concern me is the general way you have characterized some of these dives, that there just is not money to be made in there. Some of these places may be just below the threshold of viability. This is not being caused by the dancers. It is caused by something about the way the management has set it up.
You posts are always extremely helpful and they do a tremendous good in raising the level of the discussions on this forum.
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/
SJG
Led Zep Cover
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQYrq-4U…
I am always taken with your insightfulness. I have to say though that I don't really see it this way. For me strip clubs have never really been about nudity, or about seeing some idealized naked female form. The dancers are not always real people for me. They aren't really naked either. Nudist camps and nudist beaches are boring places. They are impeccably dressed, for showing their stuff. They are in high heels and makeup.
I like to see this, but I also like to see women dressed sexy in other ways and in other places. Showing their everything is not actually a requirement.
So the issue is, do I like the girl. If I do, then I am relating to her as a potential sex partner. Maybe it is in one of our local no touching strip clubs. Or maybe it is in some other venue where nothing is going to happen except looking and talking. No matter what I still like it, and I am seeing her as sexually desirable.
I don't have one set of women I look at naked, and then another I don't like the looks of but still plan to engage in sex acts with.
If I like her I am going to want to hold her, kiss her, lick her, and penetrate her. Now in fact, the circumstances will often make it so that none of this ever happens. But in looking at her I am still seeing her as a potential sex partner.
I am quite taken with the fact that many TUSCLers to not really seem to like the strippers they are paying to perform extras and LDK's upon them. This bothers me. I am not like this.
There are older dancers at the San Jose Pink Poodle, nude and no touching. I have liked a number of them. Their age shows. But I would still like to be waking up in the morning with them.
SJG
"The dancers are not always real people for me."
Correction:
"The dancers are always real people for me."
About: Aphrodite's Hot Lingerie Party in Portland, and the general idea of getting women giddy before taking them into any back room
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/
SJG
Cornel West and Michael Moore
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTUtvL9FD…
I asked once and was told that the girls talk about who visits, gets dances, is trouble, or is a cheapskate, seems I am rare here as I always ask what they allow and apparently act more like a gentleman then most. Seems I also don't BS or lie about who I am or what I do, and actually talk to them like people instead of treat them like sex objects which has seemed to go a long way. Tipping the staff and being social with them along with the bartender might be part of it as well. Seems I get a much different experience then many who post here and other places.
Keep doing what you are doing. It will pay off in the long run. I am polite with the girls and am a gentleman with them and it has gotten me a lot of extras and mileage as a result. The girls trust me and invite me to go home with them at times or come to my hotel room. I have a true girlfriend experience with many of the girls. They seek me out in the clubs and many times Treat me like a King because I treat them like a Queen.