Extras are generally frowned upon in the strip club in every known outward presentation; however they are happening in every discreet corner possible. When I happened to mention to another dancer who was sitting at the bar “that customer is a little freaky” she cautioned me not to be so vocal about the “freaky” customers. She responded “that’s how we make money and we can only make it if we keep that information to ourselves.” I agreed and even felt a little embarrassed for my drunken admission, hoping that no one was paying attention to what I said.
Even though extras are an everyday occurrence where I work, they are still illegal and the risk of being caught results in possible arrest and definite 86 from the club. As mature dancers know, that even in a town that has over 60 strip clubs in the metropolitan alone, losing the chance to dance at a club where you are currently making money is a path to disaster. Even though one could say that these girls are potentially prostitutes already for their actions in the club, when these girls lose their chance to dance they are forced to prostitution on the streets. Fortunately, not all extras dancers are prostitutes and not all prostitutes were dancers before they became prostitutes, therefore some dancers are able to practice extras in the club, discretely and basically get away with “light” prostitution for a short period of time. Extras customers need to keep this in mind, that discretion is key to an dancer longevity in the club.
It is more likely that more dancers rather than less dancers practice extras on a regular basis. Dancers are the most discerning, as they know which patrons are worth providing extra services for. For example, many dancers would not want to waste their time for a cheap customer demanding a $20 hand job, which is humiliating, demoralizing, demeaning and risky. Most dancers are not interested in taking the risk unless it is a trusted customer and “guaranteed” income. The same dancer who refuses a $20 hand job may go much further, but with a different customer who she has an established dancer – patron relationship with. However, there is a good amount of incredibly loose dancers who provide extras for all customers, without discretion or increase in cost, simply because they know that they can get away with doing it for the time being. Many of these more ‘loose’ dancers are nearing the age when most patrons would rather not see these dancers stripping, but even so, many patrons know that this dancer is very loose and giving with extras, so she continues to strip and make money to even finance the illusion that she should continue to “strip” in the first place. I have heard such comments from dancers about the “looser” dancers like, “I hate when customers are talking to me after a lap dance from her, their face is just wet with her juices and all I can smell is her pussy on their lips!” Many dancers know what their coworkers do, who will go so far and who will go further, just as some dancers know which one of their coworkers really are prostitutes.
The dancers that are morally opposed to extras tend to tattle on their coworkers, even though they know that it is likely that they do the same actions, but just in private without getting caught. Their reason for tattling is an attempt to 86 those dancers because the “cleaner” dancers see the “dirtier” dancers as a huge money threat to the game and the strip club system. Extras dancers know that at this time and place, they are the real game players and by not practicing extras, you are choosing to walk away from the small amount of money that is left in the strip club industry pie. The real strip club game is practicing extras behind management back. I have heard extras dancers defend other extras dancers with comments like “don’t hate the player, hate the game; if you can’t play the game don’t hate the player who plays the game.”
Eventually, all dancers reach a point when they either chose to retire, are 86’d from multiple clubs in town, or are forced to retire because as they age and continue to strip they no longer make any money. You could say this is retirement by choice but I see retirement by choice as a dancer who can willingly return to the industry and potentially still make money, compared to retirement by age as a dancer who has reached a point when stripping is a waste of time for her efforts put into it. Dancing costs each dancer a small amount of money, whether the patrons are aware of it or not. Besides the known stage fees that dancers must pay upfront, many dancers tend to be customers of the club. Buying food and drinks in the downtime as well as buying manicures and outfits is all parts of ways that dancing can cost more than is returned. If dancers fall into bad spending habits such as routinely buying cigarettes, gambling, drinking, drug use and buying from vendors who sell wares to the dancers, then it is likely that they are not making any money at all, with the little that they do make being spent rapidly.
Multiple motivations come from different dancers in regards to extras, and dancers can change their mind moment by moment, without hesitation. Dancers are desperate people, who careered dancers know eventually work for much less than minimum wage. The demands of being a dancer can be as hard or as easy as the given dancer perceives, depending on club obligation. Several clubs have severe penalty fees for not following rules, scheduling or beautifying standards upheld by the club. Clubs profit from the dancers directly and indirectly; outwardly patrons agree that the dancer presence is what brings them into the club. But besides that, dancer stage fees, penalty fees, and their orders as customers are all direct profits to the club. When the clubs profit so much just from having the dancers come in, some dancers make extreme amounts while other dancers fall by the margins and barely make $8 a day to leave the club with. So the dancers that are making gross amounts find the fees agreeable as they are willing to pay them in order to work there, and because these girls do pay the fees, the club assumes that ALL girls should pay the fees, regardless of whether or not they are doing well that particular night, fees must still be paid nightly.
I have heard of multiple types of penalty fees, one dancer mentioned that one particular club charged the dancers $5 a minute for the time that they were “late” in starting their shift, which meant being ready and on stage at a particular time. Dancers are typically late people, and this particular club profits off the late dancers, as well as the timely dancers who happen to be stuck in traffic or other unusual circumstances on their way to the club. Another club changes the amount of money that dancers receive on dances based on how drunk and how lenient that particular dancer was. The club management threaten the dancer with their supposed video footage of the dancer’s prostitution acts and then take increasingly more money from the dancer per dances that she gets. Another well known club has penalty fees for dancers who do not uphold specific beauty standards before their shift, these standards can change day to day as well. Dancers are weighed before their shift and charged penalty fees for gaining weight or threatened to lose shifts until they are a certain weight.
And just as fees must be paid nightly, stages must always be filled with dancers, even if there are no patrons in the club, even if there are no tipping patrons in the club, the dancer presence is in the most physically demanding during stage sets. Depending on the club, there will be more or less dancers; clubs with more dancers have dancers who appear on stage less while clubs with less dancers have dancers who appear on stage more. This results in a club where there are girls routinely on stage filling the needed dancer presence who are not tipped. Patrons have seen all four dancers within a twenty minute period, and if they want to enjoy their time gambling, drinking, and smoking, they are going to ignore the dancers that they quickly have become bored with, and maybe even have already tipped. Bartenders are fooled into believing these customers who are not interested in dancers, are interested in dancer stage presence, so some dancers may be on stage often to a crowd that couldn’t bother to care. So after a long day of dancing for uninterested patrons, these dancers still owe the club money, and the club isn’t in the least grateful for the “time” that the girls gave to keep the empty stages filled. Just like any older employee who is taken for granted by his employer; the older dancers are no different.
Trixxi,
This here is totally unacceptable: " The club management threaten the dancer with their supposed video footage of the dancer’s prostitution acts and then take increasingly more money from the dancer per dances that she gets. " This is extortion. It is criminal.
The other two types of threatening and fining you mention are also very bad.
The people who run these clubs know what the dancers do. They know that with things as they are that they wouldn't be able to have dancers and they wouldn't be able to have a club, unless these things were going on. They have build VIP Rooms in order to allow such acts, and then to have plausible deniability.
I have never seen a case of a dancer who became a street hooker, or a street hooker who was a dancer. Where I am LE is very tough on street hookers and on SC's. We get some street hookers, mostly black, who come down to some areas of San Jose from the East Bay. Some are not bad looking. I've not partaken, but they give me business cards with 1-800 numbers and the write their fee schedules on the back. There is not much line between street hookers and escorts today. We know that many strippers do end up also being escorts. But between street hookers and strippers, at least where I am there is still a line.
We get some who blow in from out of town and work out of motels. But in all cases, LE feels free to arrest them without any evidence that any law has been broken. We are all living in a state of martial law.
If we had lots of strip clubs and if some had adjacent motels, and if they let the girls come and go as they please, then probably they wouldn't really have defined shifts and the girls would work from opening to closing and they would do as much motel action as possible. Yes, then it probably would feel like they were basically just like street hookers.
Lots of porn stars retire into careers as "sex educators" and they write and make videos. Escorts do this too. I think strippers probably still try to keep their past concealed, as I know.
But there are lots of pro-sex women writers, like Suzy Bright for example. And then the novelist Catherine Texier I have always found interesting. She has an affinity for all sorts of sex workers. And then of course there is Anais Ninn and all the people and sorts of places she writes about.
The SC's where I live are zero touching and they are strict. So I learned to live with that and to fully accept it. Some of the girls advertise OTC availability. But as I have found the overwhelming majority are quite available for civilian dating. They are not unapproachable our out of one's social reach at all.
One dancer I talked with for a long time, with she and another dancer. She asked, "Why would you want a relationship with a stripper?"
en.wikipedia.org If you talk to some older dancers from the Bay Area they will remember Spectator Magazine. I used to weekly walk into one of our porn stores just to buy it and read it. Their feature articles were usually dancer interviews.
One Dave Patrick took most of the pictures, and he wrote some of the articles too. He was kind of the representative for the ordinary horny guys who liked strip clubs. Back like in the 80's he wrote one about dating strippers. The example he gave was an extreme one, a girl who works in these peep show places where you put in money and get just a little bit of viewing time. So it is hard to even talk to her.
His take on it was that basically she probably is quite dateable and probably very likeable. Only thing is, because of where she works, there will be a few more hoops to jump through before being able to get anywhere with her, like getting her phone number. This was before cell phones. He then did advise that there would be some who would be changing their phone number every week and would be telling stories of he dangerous ex's who were stalking them. Of this small portion, Patrick said you should run, not walk, to get away from them. But otherwise they were quite ordinary.
What Patrick did not answer was the question, "Why would you want to date a stripper?"
I know what the answer is, at least for me. I like strippers. I like them not just for what they do on the job. I just like them. They are outcasts, just like I am. They may not admit it and they may not understand it. But they are still outcasts. All sex workers are outcasts. So if you want to make something new happen, they are good people to try and get involved.
People who have read my posts know that I am not into the "extras" approach to SC's. I was skeptical when it surfaced here in SF. It seemed like moving from lap sitting in the front room, to extras in booths, was just a way to radically run up the costs, and to let the house take a much deeper cut.
Also, if I like a girl, HJ / BJ is not what I am generally going to want to do with her. Maybe if there is some reason that we cannot do FS, and so she and I both understand that this is going to be a rehearsal for what we will be doing very soon, like say after Aunt Flo leaves, then okay. But other wise I don't really go for that. I was happy in Sunnyvale just with talking and flirting.
And I was extremely happy in our AMPs flirting with the girls, kissing them, and then doing FS with them. And so I was even more skeptical when it became known that in some of the SF clubs they were building totally private rooms. I was always skeptical about the costs and the time allowed, and about the other external parameters which influence how good FS-ITC is likely to be.
Here on this TUSCL Forum I am surprised to learn how much FS-ITC there is in so many other areas of the country. But I am still skeptical of the quality of it. The posts I read hear further fuel my skepticism because I see that these guys don't flirt with the girls, they don't try to court them or come on to them, and they don't try to makeout with them. Mostly they are just responding to the girl's verbal pitch.
Well, when it is set up that way, I wouldn't expect much of the whole thing, FS in only the most technical of senses. And I have read accounts which strongly suggest that the dancers don't even consider such acts as being sex.
AMPs are not really intending to offer escort sessions, not GFE. But if one can manipulate the selection process and let the girl see that you are only there because of her, and if you can court her some and come on to her, and start kissing her gently and purposefully as early on as possible, then it will be better than GFE. It will be GFA ( girlfriend audition ).
I've written about one S.F. Korean who was showing off her extreme eye makeup for me through the front door viewing hatch.
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When they finally opened the door, she was not there. But I insisted on her. So when they bought her out, she was already giddy. But I still had to wait till she finished with someone else. So I held her up against the wall in the massage room and kept kissing her, until she agreed to be back quickly. She had after all deprived the other girls of a chance at the session, with her front door antics. So she was supposed to let them take care of me. But I didn't really give her much choice. What ensued was beyond description. It gets like this when one can get the girl off script.
I've written about another Korean locally. I was just going to cruise the place. But then I saw her cutting hair through the front window. Then later when we were in the massage room, she was not accustomed to the idea that her job description included FS. She and I never spoke a single word about what was to ensue. No reason to. She didn't like being cornered, so I just sat down and we kept talking to her. When she finally yielded and the shoulders dropped, what ensued was sweet beyond description. Deeply emotionally moving to do that with her.
What I learned from all of these AMP experiences, and the talking and flirting experiences in the local SC's, was how to relate to women. I had not had enough such experiences before I was married, and so I was in a living hell and I did not know how to change it.
But as I gained the ability with these girls, I also saw that I needed to stop and start trying to make my marriage work. I don't think P4P is really a solution to anything. I don't think one should make it their primary source of sexual gratification.
I also think the people have to know each other some. In all of these AMP experiences, the natural and expected outcome of the session is that both people will want to start sleeping together immediately. And what I would have liked would have been to do exactly that with them, and to have made it clear that that was what was going to happen, that night if at all possible.
I think it bad when guys are using money to put up an emotional barrier between themselves and the girl, and especially when what they are looking for is just the endorphin rush which comes with ejaculation. I think this is perverted.
About dancers being against those who do extras, we have this. It is an entire hierarchy of those criticizing the ones who go beyond what they do. Myself, I try very hard to catch myself if I am saying things which contribute to these types of prejudice.
jezebel.com
I believe that the author now works at the Mustang Ranch.
You talked about discretion, how dancers want to keep what they do concealed. They need to do this, even though the club management must know exactly what is going on. This again is why I remain skeptical about the quality available in SC FS.
But you are also speaking of another type of discretion, being selective about who they do what with.
Londoner's FKK Article tuscl.net
Back on Londoner's thread you spoke about how you would love to work in a German FKK club for a 2 or 3 week stint. Well, that it would be just for 2 or 3 weeks makes it sound more like you would be looking for an adventure, rather than for a new career. I think probably you were just being facetious.
When advocates for decriminalization speak, what they most seem to want is absolute control over the negotiating process from beginning to end. I think this is not just a concern about leaving money on the table, it is because that negotiating is the courtship. It is when they decide if they want to service the person, and it is when they try to build some rapport in order to make it go well. They don't want anyone else in the middle setting up expectations by representing them.
So usually sex worker advocates don't like brothels. I have even met women who have worked in the Nevada houses, and they don't like them.
Wouldn't it be fun to live in Amsterdam? You could just venture out each day, and make friends with the women, and then session sometimes. These are the types of places they like, where they can work as independent contractors and pay their own expenses, and talk to the perspectives when they are in the windows.
georgehirschlifestyle.com
But as good as this looks, a strip club could be even better, as it is a somewhat protected indoor environment, and it allows for free form fraternization. Also, the women can try to make money from the front room.
I have talked much about how at the most extreme black FS places, the girls come and sit in your lap and try to get you to makeout with them. Others have confirmed that it is like this, and that it is not restricted to the black clubs.
Well, if done like that one could really take some time and get to know a girl, and pay her some, and really get her softened up. Then what would occur after retreating to a private cabana would be phenomenal. It would not be "extras"-FS. It would not be a service at all, as she could be gotten completely off of script. It would be fantastic and live changing.
P4P sex is not in an of itself the solution to anything. But it does give one an alternate perspective, and it can be liberating to partake of it from time to time. If a girl can be that open, bodily and emotionally, then one can learn from her and just relate to the world completely differently.
I got this when in the early SF lap dancing days I saw this lovely little black girl up on stage open tongue kissing another dancer. Then when she was on my lap I told her how much that had effected me and how I felt it throughout my entire body. She told me how much she had enjoyed it, and things proceeded from there, and I have never been the same since.
Sex workers perform an absolutely necessary function. It is has been like this since the earliest civilizations built their cities with their temples at the center.
But that there is gender politics between men and women which restricts sex while at the same time keeping the birth rate propped up, is tragic. There are evils which our society perpetrates, especially in the realm of economics and using gender roles to control people. P4P sex shows one that it could be otherwise, but it does not solve the problem.
My own SC and AMP experiences showed me that things could and should be otherwise, but these institutions alone are not going to fix the problems.
In the end men and women and civilians and pros are all victims of the same sorts of societal unfairness. I read the stuff TUSCL people post and I can see that they are angry about how much money some strippers make, the very ones they are handing money to and engaging in sex acts with. They don't really understand the situation. These girls are really just asking to be fairly compensated for what they are giving up.
If we want real change, as I do, then we have to start building some new social institutions and we have to start finding new ways that men and women can relate in partnership. This is where my own efforts are going.
Thank you Trixxi for your excellent article. Every time you post it ads so much to the quality of the discussions we can have on TUSCL. I hope others will be making replies on this thread.
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