A Most Compelling Argument
reverendhornibastard
Depraved Deacon of Degeneracy
I recall as a youth watching a debate between two men, one a pro-communist and the other a pro-capitalist. The pro-communist was a much better debater. It was painful to watch him running circles around the flat-footed pro-capitalism debater.
Near the end of their debate, the pro-capitalist dude made a pithy observation. Capitalist and communist countries all had border guards. The guards on the borders of capitalist countries were busy trying to control the number of people trying to enter the capitalist country. The guards on the borders of communist countries stayed busy trying to control the number of people attempting to escape.
That said it all for me.
A few years later I was having dinner with some lawyers and commercial representatives from Neste Oy, a Finnish oil and gas company. We were dining after dark in a restaurant atop one of the taller buildings in Helsinki. Off in the distance, I could see the glow of the lights of Tallinn, a city across the Gulf of Finland in Estonia (then part of the Soviet Union). From time to time a bright light would flash from somewhere far out in the waters of the Gulf of Finland.
I asked about the odd, bright flash coming from the waters. My hosts explained that there were Soviet patrol boats in the Gulf of Finland looking for boats carrying people attempting to sneak out of the Soviet Union into Finland.
I realized then that I was having dinner within sight of the boundary of an enormous prison and I remembered that debate I had watched a few years before.
Near the end of their debate, the pro-capitalist dude made a pithy observation. Capitalist and communist countries all had border guards. The guards on the borders of capitalist countries were busy trying to control the number of people trying to enter the capitalist country. The guards on the borders of communist countries stayed busy trying to control the number of people attempting to escape.
That said it all for me.
A few years later I was having dinner with some lawyers and commercial representatives from Neste Oy, a Finnish oil and gas company. We were dining after dark in a restaurant atop one of the taller buildings in Helsinki. Off in the distance, I could see the glow of the lights of Tallinn, a city across the Gulf of Finland in Estonia (then part of the Soviet Union). From time to time a bright light would flash from somewhere far out in the waters of the Gulf of Finland.
I asked about the odd, bright flash coming from the waters. My hosts explained that there were Soviet patrol boats in the Gulf of Finland looking for boats carrying people attempting to sneak out of the Soviet Union into Finland.
I realized then that I was having dinner within sight of the boundary of an enormous prison and I remembered that debate I had watched a few years before.
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43 comments
“A free and prosperous society has no fear of anyone entering it. But a welfare state is scared to death of every poor person who tries to get in and every rich person who tries to get out.”
-Harry Browne
Mathew 7:5
I would add that maybe is because “Wealth and power has a way of convincing the wealthy they are entitled to do whatever they want. It’s expressed in the “golden rule”: whoever has the gold makes the rules”
Do you remember how the movie the Wizard of Oz is filmed in black and white at the beginning, and then color when Dorothy lands in Oz? Entering communist East Germany was like that, except in reverse. Traveling through West Germany, you saw well kept houses in picturesque villages surrounded by verdant fields. As soon as you crossed the border, it was as if the world went to black and white: shabby, dreary looking houses; pathetic, sparse crops struggling to grow in dusty looking fields; and Trabants belching smoke barely able to make 100 KPH on the autobahn. Once in Berlin, the world changed to color again, and you were in a modern, vibrant, bustling city. Then, through Checkpoint Charlie and into East Berlin, you were back to black and white. In East Berlin you could still see some areas where there was war damage over forty years later. I was driving a VW Golf, which no one in West Germany, the land of high powered Mercedes and Porsches, would bat an eye at. I parked on a side street in East Berlin, and when I came back, there was a crowd of kids around it peering through the windows as if it was a Lamborgini.
That's what socialism will do for you. Just ask the Venezuelans.
Once you have electoral democracy, then people will not accept anything other than that.
Even John Brown's Constitution was only to be provisional.
https://www.famous-trials.com/johnbrown/…
Where you have Social Democracy, it is there because people voted for it. And it is a constant give and take, as opinions sway.
If you really want to talk about Communism, the greatest Communist organization is the US Military.
SJG
Other countries never got this, and so they have long been just the very rich and the very poor.
So we have enjoyed a kind of "prosperity" for a long time which was out of reach for most countries.
Its not because our system has been anti-socialist, it has actually been because our country has had kinds of limited socialism, in this free and low cost land, and then later via high progressive income tax and keynesian spending.
SJG
Very good:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/031217…
SJG
a precursor to the type of debate we need to have in the US
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dJZgs6u…
In many ways one could say the USA has been an over 200 year experiment in capitalism and free markets. It has worked very well for many. In my view there is no better country on earth.
However, there is now an odd view being sold by many ultra liberal types, who believe they should be in charge of redistributing the wealth.
At the same time, college students are hearing this, and they also hear about the difficulty in finding work to support a nice standard of living. Its easy to pander to young folks and try to sell an agenda where everyone shares in the wealth. But the model is fatally flawed, and I don't believe it, and I don't trust the government to provide the level of equity that free markets do.
As a child I thought it was odd hearing about Olympic athletes from China or Russia - defecting from their country to live in free areas. If people are free, they should be allowed to come and go in a free and legal manner. Freedoms and laws are important in our society. Borders define our states and our country, if they aren't enforced, we have a boundless and lawless anarchy - and nobody (even SJG) should want that.
As such we do have an advantage over other countries.
The subsidies started in the form of free and low cost land. Then later they have existed in the form of high progressive taxation, and redistribution.
This all started to fall apart in 1980 when because of Evangelical Christians entering politics and turning against their Southern Baptist Sunday School Teacher, we elected a Hollywood Playboy Divorcee.
SJG
The government can’t be trusted to spend within their current means.
This is a sad excuse to allow more government waste - and less equitable distribution of wealth. It’s basically putting the mouse in charge of distributing the cheese.
No they don’t. They have a job and an income - and they have opportunity to do more with their skills. They deserve to be paid for their work. They should save and invest - so they can pay for their family.
We live in a free country. We have free will. We can work our asses off an make lots of money. Capitalism allows us to get rich, and it also allows us to piss it away, but it’s our decisions that do it. I’d much rather be in control of my destiny than be dependent on government hand outs.
I guess it's a good that we have this little thing called the Constitution. I don't think there is a provision in it that that allows the President confiscate anyone's wealth over $300M.
"I’d much rather be in control of my destiny than be dependent on government hand outs."
I'd prefer citizens didn't starve, go homeless, or be without healthcare. Again, I can handle some corruption.
I don't care if people piss away their money as long as they actually have money to piss away.
It’s also not a little corruption - it’s incredible levels of government waste - so much waste that very little will reach those in need. So think about your claims before you think it’s for the greater good - as it’s not. It’s adding to more waste.
Redistribution is not the answer - it’s another way to perpetuate the problem.
Don’t quote Bill Maher - the guy who called the 9/11 terrorists brave -
Why don’t guys like SJG and others simply leave and move to a place they think fits their ideals better? Probably because they are an official king of dumbasses!
“ you literally spewed line-for-line exactly what Handjob Hannity does every day on his Stupid Show of Lies and Delusions.”
“Handjob Hannity and Ratface Lardball”
Now that’s pretty funny. (But who’s Ratface Lardball?)
But I must say - his anger and his rants are entertaining.
Just wow!
TV has really rotted our brains!
Life is not as simple as what each 10-minute TV segment on CNN or Fox News might suggest. Capitalism, socialism and communism are not panaceas.
I am from West Texas and was as rabidly pro-capitalism and anti-communist as anyone you might expect to meet who grew up on the high plains of West Texas.
Then I began traveling all over the world and living in wildly different places on four continents.
America is a great place to live, but I can assure you it has NOT cornered the market on great ideas for structuring a society or even an economy.
Go spend some time in Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Japan, Denmark, Australia, New Zealand or Singapore.
They have some good ideas too!
Look past the political labels and consider instead the practical results of alternative policies.
It's amazing how bitter the left is that they lost the election. I mean what a bunch of whiny twats. Oh here comes Socialist Bernie or Alzheimers Biden to save the day in 2020...
Obama was in office when Bin Laden got caught. Thanks, GWB.
Am for flat tax, so wealthy cannot abuse tax loopholes and they pay fair share.
Using China because lower cost of good is way of life. Do you contribute to your 401k in companies that self regulate their earnings or do you want the companies providing best return to stakeholders?
Maher is a blithering idiot that went off the rails long ago. He used to be middleish then discovered, capitalism in play here, his ratings and earnings went up when he panders to the wacko extremist left.
Trumps not a racist, he is just a business man and trying to run America like a business. Sure, some people that vote for him are, not his fault. Same way some people voted for Obama because of his skin color.
Anyway, it's amazing how stupid the left is these days. They are blinded with irrational rage as they lost to orangemagaman.
I am an American. I am most comfortable living among other Americans. But I realize that America is imperfect and that it can be improved. I favor any ideas (regardless of where they are sourced) that can improve my country.
That’s what patriotic people in a free society do!
We can disagree on what would help make America a better place. But that’s OK. We are allowed to disagree.
This isn’t North Korea.
Luckily for our country, your "rules" are a fantasy. President Trump WON!
Get over it!
Well so be it. I would never be part of such a thing in any other country, but in my own country, of course.
No one person is going to be redistributing any wealth. It is obviously to be a collective process. And it won't be just one redistribution, it will have to be a continual process.
There really is no other choice, as advanced industrial, information, and agricultural technology has made it so that labor is in extreme surplus. We don't want people like Jeff Bezos in charge. And if the likes of Harry Browne were in charge he would turn this into a third world country in no time.
SJG
B52's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNwC0sp-…
Good book, but I have only read a portion of it so far:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/162097…
SJG
SJG
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So you're a believer in trickle down economics... hmm maybe there is some hidden republican blood in you yet lol
SJG
Reagan and trickle down was a huge mistake.
SJG