Fair amount of overlap between stripper OTC and sugaring. Both qualify as prostitution, at least in most cases.
However, both are different than escorting. An SB in the top 5% (or so) will get hundreds of messages and there is a selection process that goes on. Same can apply to a top stripper, who gets hundreds of offers and can be afford to be selective. And most strippers don't go home with customers at all (despite what the PL's say on this site). Some SBs insist on platonic, but they are in the vast minority are usually don't find anyone.
I skimmed the article and thought it was pretty good. So many others are horseshit and clickbait.
The article clearly was written in collaboration with Seeking who have legal reason to portray any sex that happens as just a natural consequence vs. the reason for the arrangement. I've picked up here there are plenty of short term sugar arrangements that involve sex.
The article did touch on how Sugaring is really a higher class version of escorting. You need to be attractive, being white helps, being educated helps. Sugar babies are selling the fantasy as much as the sex.
"The article did touch on how Sugaring is really a higher class version of escorting" ______ The difference is that escorts don't sceen their clients, ask for pictures, screen for certain age groups or common interests. I think on bulk, there are significant differences
And the magazine article sells magazines just because it sounds risque and because it makes girls feel like something because the money sounds good. Girls who would do that would not be interested in reading the magazine article.
sugaring is extremely manipulative from both sides. I'd say most women come on there with nefarious intentions and just try to fit an image that hey think the guys want
The only difference between prostitution and sugaring is... I have to act like I like you. Higher end Escorts screen they’re clients as well but there’s no ego stroke.
Yes, but a guy can approach a prostitute ( sidewalk, strip club, lounge bar) and they can find that they like each other and things can be very good.
The sugaring article is written to women, and mostly it is to press into them the idea that they should be getting money, that they are expensive. So it is the peace and harmony in ordinary relationships which is under attack.
Never liked the term Sugar Baby, suggests immature and frivolous woman.
European and Latin American mistresses are passionate but mature and practical women. If you want such, find one currently working as a street or lounge bar prostitute or as a stripper.
I am the one who introduced the term "mistress" to this forum, to counter the term Sugar Baby.
That article was mean to teach women to equate sex, really civilian sex, with conspicuous consumption.
Exactly, there are racist and classist undertones to Sugaring. Truth is, a white trick who thinks he is doing well will shy away from a streetwalker thinking he's too good for that shit, but will fuck her if he meets her off of SA and she finesses him with a bs story about being in college a wannabe actress or whatever. A hoe will be whatever a trick wants her to be. And they know exactly what to say to attract middle class white men and make them feel happy and comfortable.
@Icey wrote: ".. but will fuck her if he meets her off of SA and she finesses him with a bs story about being in college." _______________ It's possible to "finesse" for a night or two -- but not for several months. I could give you multiple examples. One of my favorites was an Asian economics major at a top-ten school where upper-division classes were theorem-proof, like a math class. She could describe her classwork in detail, and landed a job in NYC after graduation. She's a college student --period--and it's impossible to fake it for any extended length of time. I posted about her several years ago and the funny part about her profile is that it was barely more than her picture in a swimsuit.
If you use the site like @Pistola (e.g., meet my at the MGM at 8PM for $100) then yes -- you'll get all the Backpage whores. If you do any screening and insist on unpaid dates up front, then you get a different demographic.
Thanks for talking out of your ass again @Icey. It's a great service to the board.
It's somehow satisfying that, just like Icey seems to have very little actual experience with strippers, he pontificates as if he knows everything, and then does the same thing with arrangements ... where, by contrast, he seems to have NO experience. It's also always amusing when some blowhard makes a big point about "it's all whores!" as if the rest of us can't figure out OTC and arrangements are prostitution also. Of course, just like wrestling and football are both sports, but perhaps you need to do them both to see that it's totally different to play despite both being sports, you'd need actual experience in an arrangement to see that, yes, prostitution obviously, but feels totally different than escorts in a number of substantive ways. That's why some people who could afford either, strongly veer one way or the other -- they're different.
Why not just admit "I've never done either OTC or sugaring, so everything I'm pontificating about is just a guess based on articles I've read"? lol
Icey makes a good point, a very good point. That article is written to encourage upscale class identification, not to promote sex.
And PaulDrake, now off of ignore, probably stepping out of the Circle Jerk Room as it is being Clorox mopped right now, that article is just telling young women to seek a life of conspicuous spending and consumption. It is not actually encouraging there to be more or freer sex, just more and larger flows of money.
Long ago I asked myself what I think of prostitution. Finally, thinking of our local girls I call "The Beloved Latina Escorts", I decided that what I think of it depends on how it is done. Is it just increasing sexual frustration and making guys wish they had more money? Or is it actually providing sexual healing and satisfaction. And this core group of Latinas, they were really good, they were beloved. Earthy women, and they knew how to dress for sex, more than for the stage. They were not judgemental about guys.
I view the term “prostitution” more as a criminal justice term. For example, other examples of prostitution are... 1. Not wearing pasties in a jurisdiction that requires them 2. Wearing the wrong type of underwear as a dancer 3. When things like grinding on a customer are banned
...would technically be “prostitution” in LE eyes. And it will be them that define whether a sugar baby is a prostitute.
(IMO The answer is that the sugar babies get frowned on, but it’s technically not prostitution because good luck trying to enforce cracking down on that. Ditto with OTC with strippers)
"I view the term “prostitution” more as a criminal justice term. For example, other examples of prostitution are..."
I agree with you, and this is why I usually avoid the term, usually saying instead P4P. And I always encourage guys to start feeding money to strippers, presenting it as "taking care of you", and to help cover their expenses, like high heels, and eventually to help make sure her bills are paid.
Now about your 1 thru 3, this is what LE, certainly locally tries to say. ( Some times this is after they have been partaking for several months of front room FS ) But that is not what the Penal Code actually says, and they have not been able to convince juries to see it that way. Instead they hit people which such a huge mass of charges that they are intimidated into pleading guilty. They know that prostitution cases are already skating on thin ice, a low level misdemeanor, 647(B), comparable to open container and loitering, but treated like it is a major criminal conspiracy. They know that if they lose one case, then this county will come to have San Francisco style strip clubs. So they make sure that these cases do not go to trial.
I don't like the idea of a Sugar Baby, a frivolous girl. I like Mistress, a more mature and practical woman, and likely better in bed too.
I am the one who introduced the term "Mistress" to this board, as it is used in Europe, Latin American, and in their own way in Asia.
Sugar Baby is an extrapolation from adolescence.
What happened to that VIP Room? Clorox mopping right now? Or is it used only for circle jerks?
"Legally, "prostitution" is really up in the air. "
The wording of the law is clear. In CA it it is "contracting for sex or lewd conduct in exchange for money or other consideration." But what this means in practice is very open. At bottom it comes down to what can be enforced, and that comes down to what a jury can be convinced of.
But most defendants cannot afford an effective attorney. If you described lap dancing to middle America types, they would usually say that yes, it is prostitution. But if it is an actual humanized defendant, then they would probably not convict. This is how Jim and Artie Mitchell got off, besides having very friendly news papers, and besides having the cops highly compromised, and so lap dancing continued.
After Jim and Artie went through a felony jury trial and won, it was then that they big brave soldiers of the Mafia came in, and moved it from the front room to booths and back rooms. And then they were then followed by Deja Vu.
Lewd conduct? In a strip club most all the doings are lewd.
If you try to enforce you'll be turning the US into Saudi Arabia. And if you try to enforce on the money, you'll be setting precedents which make marriage illegal.
Like in Canada, it is just solicitation which is illegal, meaning that indoor prostitution is really out of legal reach.
It has always been something impossible to enforce, more like a Status Crime, like Vagrancy. And generally these laws are now seen as unconstitutional.
But LE does not play fair. They shake down young women, mostly A.A. at local bus stops. Questioning a White girl about the underwear in her purse. She explained to them, as she would later explain it to me, that it was for her Viet Coffee job.
Almost always it amounts to shredding the Constittution, and often outright entrapment.
Strip clubs are supposed to be Cabaret Shows with Audience Participation. This is how Jim and Artie got off, no back rooms, not for sexual gratification, more for shock value and sex education.
When you go to back rooms, then it does become more like a brothel. But even then, enforcement under the US Constitution is impossible. Only two people in that room. If one of them is a cop, then it is entrapment.
There are varying legal concepts that go along with it. There's a lot more to it and certain things fall under it in various jurisdictions but basically....
prostitution - The commercial exchange of sex for money, goods, service, or some other benefit agreed upon by the transacting parties. And its actually not about one's "right" to sex, its about engaging in unlawful employment.
solicitation - Simply the act of requesting or offering to engage in prostitution.
open and gross lewd conduct - basically any behavior engaged in outside the privacy of one's dwelling or de facto dwelling done with the intent of arousing one or all involved.
Sugaring isn't a grey area. Its just tolerated because of the literal white washing that it receives. The concept of requesting a sugar daddy isn't illegal, but a sugar daddy requesting sex in exchange for some commodity or benefit is, as is taking it. Enforcement varies by state.
While a sugaring relationship that's ongoing for a reasonable amount of time wouldn't be looked at by DAs since paying someone to be in a long term relationship with you is not illegal, there are exceptions, such as if sugaring is the sugar babies main source of income, in which case there would be a legal argument that a sugar baby is a hoe and a sugar daddy just a trick. Same with using sugaring for one off prostitution.
As far as vice raids in strip clubs, the easiest charge is indecent exposure, which can mean anything from giving dances outside of security camera views to showing one's vagina or anus. If a trick has his zipper down or pants unbuttoned that can technically be an indecent exposure charge as well.
If a hoe touches a trick, or the trick has his pants undone or even zipper pulled down, then both can be charged with open and gross lewdness along with indecent exposure. These charges will stick, where as prostitution and solicitation have a harder time of sticking.
There are lesser crimes associated with inappropriate fondling if your local ordinances prohibit touching in strip clubs...
Then stuff you may not think about.... like getting drunk and passing out or arguing with a stripper/hoe about set prices can result in a breach of peace charge.
I don't empathize with the tricks, but the laws do make it a bit safer for hoes and works in a similar way to "decriminalization" in that hoes are given the option to get help if trafficking or addiction are involved. Ie vice officers will make sure social workers see the hoes. Often times individuals associated with locals orgs that help trafficked or underage prostitutes, addicts, etc.
The trick is the main perpetrator in the crime... a lot of raids are aimed at tricks. In clubs and out. In California for example, your car can be seized from the premises where you engage in it and its a $1000 fine and six months in jail, with a minimum of 45 days served...it goes up with each repeated offense. Targeting tricks is a first step towards decriminalization and actually helps more than targeting hoes.
Well, most of us want now decriminalization instead of legalization.
Legalization really has never worked well, and it still hurts the women. Decriminalization usually helps let LE protect them.
I don't know that it is really about unlawful employment. And the idea of 'vice' is a subjective and moralistic term. Here in the US it is being applied on top of Calvinistic morality. For them, even art has to be shown to have socially redeeming value, or it is taken as illegitimate.
And though sometimes in sex work their are abusive situations, these also occur in marriage and these occur in many employment and housing situations.
Continued criminalization of sex work merely contributes to the social marginalization of the sex worker, and this is what creates the real risks.
As far as the creeps, like the ones we have in our VIP Room, it is the women who have to deal with them. Hard to know what to say, but decriminalization of sex work would help alleviate the stigma and give the workers more choice and control.
Most of the laws about sex that apply to women, are just because Patriarchy depends upon being able to strip women of most of their social power.
Sex workers only depend on pimps when their job is dangerous and they are having to operate as criminals.
No, that's the state of prostitution in the US. There was a bill proposed in DC that would have done just that, decriminalized hoes but still keep hiring a hoe illegal.
Look at legal weed, having more than an oz on you can still get you with intent to sell in most states and in CA for example, cops crack down more on weed dealers now.
-->"To all be sub-categories of the umbrella category of prostitution just like football, basketball, wrestling, skiing, and swimming are all sub-categories of an umbrella category of sports. Obviously, they are all very different ways of conducting prostitution, but what I was saying was that just because there are differences between sugaring and escorting doesn't mean that escorting is prostitution but sugaring is not."
DC, was anyone arguing with that? It seems to be downright obvious. That's why I used the metaphor of sports -- wrestling, football, and bodybuilding are completely different sports, but still sports. Contrary to those on here who are obviously stirring shit and have literally no experience with sugaring -- when done in the kinda classic sugarbaby/sugardaddy paradigm, it's a wholly different experience than escorts. Which does not make it "not prostitution", nor does it make it any better or worse. But the only way anyone could come up with the ridiculous reductivist "sugaring is just escorting whitewashed" is if they had never done it, or perhaps are a blowhard troll type who just talks to talk. Hell, on escort forums, even escorts who try sugaring can easily see the difference (and often don't like it since it's often more time for less $, in aggregate, and escorts by definition don't care about the ability to handpick a single or few partners)
It is only the economy type of prostitution which is ever prosecuted, and more often when racial minorities are involved.
High end prostitution is impossible to enforce against. Just not done in a way which could ever be busted. The selections realm is hidden, not out on the sidewalk, not in an AMP or a strip club.
" All communities in the south bay area of San Francisco take prostitution crimes very seriously. Prostitution charges are vigorously prosecuted in Santa Clara County. San Jose, Sunnyvale, and many other police departments have specialized units of experienced police officers focused solely on eradicating prostitution.
Immigrants, in particular, are oftentimes the target of prostitution investigations, and face potentially serious immigration consequences upon conviction for prostitution. "
what makes high end hoeing harder to prosecute is the secrecy and discretion involved. Plus tricks with lots of clout have access to lawyers. Of course the justice system is racist and classist. Its that way by design.
@DC &SJG I’ll give you an answer you’re not going to like, nothing you guys say here is going to change a fucking thing, and your political skills absolutely suck, you idiots are completely self absorbed and all of the wishes in the world won’t change a fucking thing. If you guys were serious about wanting to see real changes instead of demonizing mainstream thought, you’d repair your arguments in such a way as to show the guys in the mainstream A/K/A the guys and girls posting in the VIP section that their concerns are legitimate and you understand what is happening, as it stands right now you guys are getting crushed by the fact you really have been marginalized and we don’t give a fuck, and all of your posturing and grand pronouncements are not changing a thing. Bunch of losers this is ridiculous, I mean really and truly the definition of what constitutes prostitution, stupid shit going on here.
If it sounds that way to you great, your aspirations have been reached, this is as far as you'll ever go, I'm guessing it really is bothering you to be on the outside looking in,I feel sorry for you.
20fag, so people shouldn't be discussing social problems or issues because they can't personally change them???? What should we be talking about??? Bloviating about how macho we are and how rich and popular we are? About cumming in our pants? Cheating on our wives and getting hookers? Those seem to be your favorite topics.
DC, I like blunts but they're a waste of weed, no one really needs that much at a time. But I figure they're healthier than joints. More weed less wrapper... I'm not a fan of pipes. Im trying the vape thing now, I like it a lot better but it seems too girly.
Dick head you really have reading comprehension problems don’t you, you’re a fucking retarded loser, opining about shit you’ll never experience in your life. Let. Me. Talk. Real Slow. So. You Understand. If Y’all. Want. To. Seee. Some. Change. In The. Laws. You’ll. Need. More. Than. The. Four. Votes. That. You. Idiots. Comprise. That. Means. Making. Alliances No One. In. Their. Right. Mind. Would. Support. A Platform. With Any. Of The. Four. Of. You. Dolts. Stupid. Boring. Losers. LOL
This article is not written to women who would be Sugar Babies, it is just using the mystic of that. It is written to class conscious young women who would never do such things. Mostly it just helps women come to think that money should be spent on them. It does not encourage sex, it encourages conspicuous consumption.
Cosmopolitan talks all about sex. But who is it written for? I think it is written for a jr high school age audience.
^^^^^^^^ I fully agree with you Icey. And as I pointed out, it is only the poor, immigrant, and minority hookers who have any real risk of prosecution. SJG
^^^^ And this is part of the call for decriminalization. People don't see it as a social problem unless it is the poor, immigrants, or minorities doing it.
Either that or equally enforcing the law. I think any viable call for decriminalization has to include a real plan to end sexual exploitation and the social problems that lead to it .
^^^^^^^^^ Well I think people just want to decriminalize. While abuses are still possible, Amnesty International has taken the position that the best way to minimize abuse and exploitation is just to decriminalize. Keeping it in the margins is what allow abuses and exploitation.
And sexual abuse and exploitation are not unique to the sex biz, they occur throughout our society, usually because of our unworkable economic system and because children are still seen as property and the Middle Class Family is still largely seen as being above the law.
But while most all the videos for this song are clearly lip sync, and they even require people playing instruments not shown on stage, I have finally found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWb8_DH8…
I'm not against acoustic guitar, its just that I like electric guitar music so much. And electric guitar can do things which acoustic guitar cannot. Needs to feel like you are there with them, not like it is just a contrived television show. Letting this finally be the psychedelia it was intended to be.
One thing I want to add. Icey, I think it is a mistake to look at the laws which criminalize prostitution as protecting women. These laws incarcerate women, not protect them. The laws are designed to restrict the movements and social power of women.
See the problem with the prostitution law is that it is making the activities of consenting adults into a crime. There is no victim.
So you see that in conservative jurisdictions they try to portray the woman as a social menace. In liberal jurisdictions they try to portray the woman as a victim.
If we really wanted to protect women, we would take intimate partner violence more seriously, and we would have more enforcement against fraudulent labor recruiters. We would look at the kinds of abuses which happen in marriage. And we would have a very good economic safety net.
And if we wanted to protect out society, we would look at the kinds of abuses which occur in marriage. And most of all we would have ways of protecting children, because in the middle-class family, it is children who are denied agency and exploited and abused to give identity for the parents.
I know that in Scandinavia they are arresting the John's. But this does not protect women, it denies their adult agency.
The prostitution laws do not help women, they are designed to persecute women.
Prostitution is complex. But from a legal perspective it isn't about the actual sex. Its about illegal employment. The sexual activity falls under gross lewdness, voyeurism and indecent exposure laws, etc...
There was a proposition to legalize prostitution in Washington DC that would have arrested the men as well.
There really aren't accurate studies on prostitution in the US. They're too politicized.....
In my own experience I've never met a prostitute who actually liked what she did or wanted to do it. There was always a reason that was coercive in nature.
Jeez so much racism! And people wonder why black people don't need to spend as much on women as other non-black races have to. You ostracized us do much, we actually have no choice but to use "game" (pick up lines, smooth talk, looks etc) to get with women while you white folks have the privilege of being lazy and just throwing money at her.
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However, both are different than escorting. An SB in the top 5% (or so) will get hundreds of messages and there is a selection process that goes on. Same can apply to a top stripper, who gets hundreds of offers and can be afford to be selective. And most strippers don't go home with customers at all (despite what the PL's say on this site). Some SBs insist on platonic, but they are in the vast minority are usually don't find anyone.
I skimmed the article and thought it was pretty good. So many others are horseshit and clickbait.
Wow, this sure applies to my current SB.
The article did touch on how Sugaring is really a higher class version of escorting. You need to be attractive, being white helps, being educated helps. Sugar babies are selling the fantasy as much as the sex.
______
The difference is that escorts don't sceen their clients, ask for pictures, screen for certain age groups or common interests. I think on bulk, there are significant differences
SJG
SJG
SJG
SJG
The sugaring article is written to women, and mostly it is to press into them the idea that they should be getting money, that they are expensive. So it is the peace and harmony in ordinary relationships which is under attack.
SJG
SJG
Never liked the term Sugar Baby, suggests immature and frivolous woman.
European and Latin American mistresses are passionate but mature and practical women. If you want such, find one currently working as a street or lounge bar prostitute or as a stripper.
I am the one who introduced the term "mistress" to this forum, to counter the term Sugar Baby.
That article was mean to teach women to equate sex, really civilian sex, with conspicuous consumption.
SJG
SJG
Mistress = A side bitch unless you're paying her, then she's a hoe you caught feelings for and she's juicing you
_______________
It's possible to "finesse" for a night or two -- but not for several months. I could give you multiple examples. One of my favorites was an Asian economics major at a top-ten school where upper-division classes were theorem-proof, like a math class. She could describe her classwork in detail, and landed a job in NYC after graduation. She's a college student --period--and it's impossible to fake it for any extended length of time. I posted about her several years ago and the funny part about her profile is that it was barely more than her picture in a swimsuit.
If you use the site like @Pistola (e.g., meet my at the MGM at 8PM for $100) then yes -- you'll get all the Backpage whores. If you do any screening and insist on unpaid dates up front, then you get a different demographic.
Thanks for talking out of your ass again @Icey. It's a great service to the board.
Why not just admit "I've never done either OTC or sugaring, so everything I'm pontificating about is just a guess based on articles I've read"? lol
And PaulDrake, now off of ignore, probably stepping out of the Circle Jerk Room as it is being Clorox mopped right now, that article is just telling young women to seek a life of conspicuous spending and consumption. It is not actually encouraging there to be more or freer sex, just more and larger flows of money.
Long ago I asked myself what I think of prostitution. Finally, thinking of our local girls I call "The Beloved Latina Escorts", I decided that what I think of it depends on how it is done. Is it just increasing sexual frustration and making guys wish they had more money? Or is it actually providing sexual healing and satisfaction. And this core group of Latinas, they were really good, they were beloved. Earthy women, and they knew how to dress for sex, more than for the stage. They were not judgemental about guys.
SJG
Joe Bonamassa - "I'll Play The Blues For You" - Live At The Greek Theatre
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoX0Olfq…
1. Not wearing pasties in a jurisdiction that requires them
2. Wearing the wrong type of underwear as a dancer
3. When things like grinding on a customer are banned
...would technically be “prostitution” in LE eyes. And it will be them that define whether a sugar baby is a prostitute.
(IMO The answer is that the sugar babies get frowned on, but it’s technically not prostitution because good luck trying to enforce cracking down on that. Ditto with OTC with strippers)
I agree with you, and this is why I usually avoid the term, usually saying instead P4P. And I always encourage guys to start feeding money to strippers, presenting it as "taking care of you", and to help cover their expenses, like high heels, and eventually to help make sure her bills are paid.
Now about your 1 thru 3, this is what LE, certainly locally tries to say. ( Some times this is after they have been partaking for several months of front room FS ) But that is not what the Penal Code actually says, and they have not been able to convince juries to see it that way. Instead they hit people which such a huge mass of charges that they are intimidated into pleading guilty. They know that prostitution cases are already skating on thin ice, a low level misdemeanor, 647(B), comparable to open container and loitering, but treated like it is a major criminal conspiracy. They know that if they lose one case, then this county will come to have San Francisco style strip clubs. So they make sure that these cases do not go to trial.
I don't like the idea of a Sugar Baby, a frivolous girl. I like Mistress, a more mature and practical woman, and likely better in bed too.
I am the one who introduced the term "Mistress" to this board, as it is used in Europe, Latin American, and in their own way in Asia.
Sugar Baby is an extrapolation from adolescence.
What happened to that VIP Room? Clorox mopping right now? Or is it used only for circle jerks?
SJG
The wording of the law is clear. In CA it it is "contracting for sex or lewd conduct in exchange for money or other consideration." But what this means in practice is very open. At bottom it comes down to what can be enforced, and that comes down to what a jury can be convinced of.
But most defendants cannot afford an effective attorney. If you described lap dancing to middle America types, they would usually say that yes, it is prostitution. But if it is an actual humanized defendant, then they would probably not convict. This is how Jim and Artie Mitchell got off, besides having very friendly news papers, and besides having the cops highly compromised, and so lap dancing continued.
After Jim and Artie went through a felony jury trial and won, it was then that they big brave soldiers of the Mafia came in, and moved it from the front room to booths and back rooms. And then they were then followed by Deja Vu.
Lewd conduct? In a strip club most all the doings are lewd.
If you try to enforce you'll be turning the US into Saudi Arabia. And if you try to enforce on the money, you'll be setting precedents which make marriage illegal.
Like in Canada, it is just solicitation which is illegal, meaning that indoor prostitution is really out of legal reach.
It has always been something impossible to enforce, more like a Status Crime, like Vagrancy. And generally these laws are now seen as unconstitutional.
But LE does not play fair. They shake down young women, mostly A.A. at local bus stops. Questioning a White girl about the underwear in her purse. She explained to them, as she would later explain it to me, that it was for her Viet Coffee job.
Almost always it amounts to shredding the Constittution, and often outright entrapment.
SJG
When you go to back rooms, then it does become more like a brothel. But even then, enforcement under the US Constitution is impossible. Only two people in that room. If one of them is a cop, then it is entrapment.
SJG
prostitution - The commercial exchange of sex for money, goods, service, or some other benefit agreed upon by the transacting parties. And its actually not about one's "right" to sex, its about engaging in unlawful employment.
solicitation - Simply the act of requesting or offering to engage in prostitution.
open and gross lewd conduct - basically any behavior engaged in outside the privacy of one's dwelling or de facto dwelling done with the intent of arousing one or all involved.
Sugaring isn't a grey area. Its just tolerated because of the literal white washing that it receives. The concept of requesting a sugar daddy isn't illegal, but a sugar daddy requesting sex in exchange for some commodity or benefit is, as is taking it. Enforcement varies by state.
While a sugaring relationship that's ongoing for a reasonable amount of time wouldn't be looked at by DAs since paying someone to be in a long term relationship with you is not illegal, there are exceptions, such as if sugaring is the sugar babies main source of income, in which case there would be a legal argument that a sugar baby is a hoe and a sugar daddy just a trick. Same with using sugaring for one off prostitution.
As far as vice raids in strip clubs, the easiest charge is indecent exposure, which can mean anything from giving dances outside of security camera views to showing one's vagina or anus. If a trick has his zipper down or pants unbuttoned that can technically be an indecent exposure charge as well.
If a hoe touches a trick, or the trick has his pants undone or even zipper pulled down, then both can be charged with open and gross lewdness along with indecent exposure. These charges will stick, where as prostitution and solicitation have a harder time of sticking.
There are lesser crimes associated with inappropriate fondling if your local ordinances prohibit touching in strip clubs...
Then stuff you may not think about.... like getting drunk and passing out or arguing with a stripper/hoe about set prices can result in a breach of peace charge.
The trick is the main perpetrator in the crime... a lot of raids are aimed at tricks. In clubs and out. In California for example, your car can be seized from the premises where you engage in it and its a $1000 fine and six months in jail, with a minimum of 45 days served...it goes up with each repeated offense. Targeting tricks is a first step towards decriminalization and actually helps more than targeting hoes.
That makes it like in Shakespeare's Measure for Measure.
Civilized countries do not try to outlaw sex.
In the US, the Sexual Revolution seems to have meant Free Love, and that carries adolescent connotations.
In Mexico, the Sexual Revolution seems to mean that every girl can have some fun doing a stint as a puta.
Which is better, which is worse, hard to say. But when you decriminalize sex, things are always better.
SJG
Nice looking, agree?
https://i2.wp.com/davidswanson.org/wp-co…
https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/intel…
Decriminalization treats the hoe as a victim, it doesn't protect tricks and pimps, actually makes it harder on them.
Legalization really has never worked well, and it still hurts the women. Decriminalization usually helps let LE protect them.
I don't know that it is really about unlawful employment. And the idea of 'vice' is a subjective and moralistic term. Here in the US it is being applied on top of Calvinistic morality. For them, even art has to be shown to have socially redeeming value, or it is taken as illegitimate.
And though sometimes in sex work their are abusive situations, these also occur in marriage and these occur in many employment and housing situations.
Continued criminalization of sex work merely contributes to the social marginalization of the sex worker, and this is what creates the real risks.
As far as the creeps, like the ones we have in our VIP Room, it is the women who have to deal with them. Hard to know what to say, but decriminalization of sex work would help alleviate the stigma and give the workers more choice and control.
Most of the laws about sex that apply to women, are just because Patriarchy depends upon being able to strip women of most of their social power.
Sex workers only depend on pimps when their job is dangerous and they are having to operate as criminals.
I find this very interesting:
https://www.anthropologymatters.com/inde…
SJG
Richard Smoley: The Shamanic Vision
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI_KmST_…
Joe Bonamassa - "I'll Play The Blues For You" - Live At The Greek Theatre
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoX0Olfq…
Nice looking, agree?
https://i2.wp.com/davidswanson.org/wp-co…
https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/intel…
Look at legal weed, having more than an oz on you can still get you with intent to sell in most states and in CA for example, cops crack down more on weed dealers now.
DC, was anyone arguing with that? It seems to be downright obvious. That's why I used the metaphor of sports -- wrestling, football, and bodybuilding are completely different sports, but still sports. Contrary to those on here who are obviously stirring shit and have literally no experience with sugaring -- when done in the kinda classic sugarbaby/sugardaddy paradigm, it's a wholly different experience than escorts. Which does not make it "not prostitution", nor does it make it any better or worse. But the only way anyone could come up with the ridiculous reductivist "sugaring is just escorting whitewashed" is if they had never done it, or perhaps are a blowhard troll type who just talks to talk. Hell, on escort forums, even escorts who try sugaring can easily see the difference (and often don't like it since it's often more time for less $, in aggregate, and escorts by definition don't care about the ability to handpick a single or few partners)
High end prostitution is impossible to enforce against. Just not done in a way which could ever be busted. The selections realm is hidden, not out on the sidewalk, not in an AMP or a strip club.
"
All communities in the south bay area of San Francisco take prostitution crimes very seriously. Prostitution charges are vigorously prosecuted in Santa Clara County. San Jose, Sunnyvale, and many other police departments have specialized units of experienced police officers focused solely on eradicating prostitution.
Immigrants, in particular, are oftentimes the target of prostitution investigations, and face potentially serious immigration consequences upon conviction for prostitution.
"
http://www.bernardbraylaw.com/practice-a…
SJG
Recommended
https://www.anthropologymatters.com/inde…
Richard Smoley: The Shamanic Vision
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI_KmST_…
Joe Bonamassa - "I'll Play The Blues For You" - Live At The Greek Theatre
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoX0Olfq…
Nice looking, agree?
https://i2.wp.com/davidswanson.org/wp-co…
https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/intel…
1 oz is 28 grams....That's like 9 blunts...
I’ll give you an answer you’re not going to like, nothing you guys say here is going to change a fucking thing, and your political skills absolutely suck, you idiots are completely self absorbed and all of the wishes in the world won’t change a fucking thing.
If you guys were serious about wanting to see real changes instead of demonizing mainstream thought, you’d repair your arguments in such a way as to show the guys in the mainstream A/K/A the guys and girls posting in the VIP section that their concerns are legitimate and you understand what is happening, as it stands right now you guys are getting crushed by the fact you really have been marginalized and we don’t give a fuck, and all of your posturing and grand pronouncements are not changing a thing.
Bunch of losers this is ridiculous, I mean really and truly the definition of what constitutes prostitution, stupid shit going on here.
SJG
Let. Me. Talk. Real Slow. So. You Understand. If Y’all. Want. To. Seee. Some. Change. In The. Laws. You’ll. Need. More. Than. The. Four. Votes. That. You. Idiots. Comprise. That. Means. Making. Alliances No One. In. Their. Right. Mind. Would. Support. A Platform. With Any. Of The. Four. Of. You. Dolts. Stupid. Boring. Losers. LOL
Do you care to expand on that a little bit? That is quite a bold statement to just offer up without any support behind it.
This article is not written to women who would be Sugar Babies, it is just using the mystic of that. It is written to class conscious young women who would never do such things. Mostly it just helps women come to think that money should be spent on them. It does not encourage sex, it encourages conspicuous consumption.
Cosmopolitan talks all about sex. But who is it written for? I think it is written for a jr high school age audience.
SJG
Ro Khanna: Regime Change Is Not the Answer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3IbZlC8…
The Ancient War Between Gnostics and Neoplatonists
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3IbZlC8…
Apocalypse of the Alien God: Platonism and the Exile of Sethian Gnosticism
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/081224…
Apocalypse of the alien god : Platonism and the exile of Sethian gnosticism / Dylan M. Burns (2014)
jeff healey live at nottoden 2006
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5Qb-6Qk…
A white middle class hooker is a Sugar Baby
A poor minority woman walking the strip is a prostitute
A white middle class girl using drugs is a party girl
A poor minority girl doing the same at clubs is a predatory junkie
SJG
SJG
And sexual abuse and exploitation are not unique to the sex biz, they occur throughout our society, usually because of our unworkable economic system and because children are still seen as property and the Middle Class Family is still largely seen as being above the law.
SJG
Saw this woman's picture somewhere and it reminded me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFZPBSh0…
https://www.e-chords.com/chords/shocking…
But while most all the videos for this song are clearly lip sync, and they even require people playing instruments not shown on stage, I have finally found this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWb8_DH8…
I'm not against acoustic guitar, its just that I like electric guitar music so much. And electric guitar can do things which acoustic guitar cannot. Needs to feel like you are there with them, not like it is just a contrived television show. Letting this finally be the psychedelia it was intended to be.
See the problem with the prostitution law is that it is making the activities of consenting adults into a crime. There is no victim.
So you see that in conservative jurisdictions they try to portray the woman as a social menace. In liberal jurisdictions they try to portray the woman as a victim.
If we really wanted to protect women, we would take intimate partner violence more seriously, and we would have more enforcement against fraudulent labor recruiters. We would look at the kinds of abuses which happen in marriage. And we would have a very good economic safety net.
And if we wanted to protect out society, we would look at the kinds of abuses which occur in marriage. And most of all we would have ways of protecting children, because in the middle-class family, it is children who are denied agency and exploited and abused to give identity for the parents.
I know that in Scandinavia they are arresting the John's. But this does not protect women, it denies their adult agency.
The prostitution laws do not help women, they are designed to persecute women.
SJG
Yanis Varoufakis: Socialism, Populism, Nationalism and Independence ( Aug 2018 )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnFOfJsQ…
Yanis Varoufakis: Has capitalism failed us? ( May 2018 )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gReGEDku…
Crazy Mini Engines
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfDZKanK…
Richard Smoley - The Kabbalah: Key to Hidden Knowledge
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-R4sOrW…
Shocking Blue - Venus ( live 1969 )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWb8_DH8…
Have You Seen The Saucers - live, 1970
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrVqhs4I…
There was a proposition to legalize prostitution in Washington DC that would have arrested the men as well.
There really aren't accurate studies on prostitution in the US. They're too politicized.....
In my own experience I've never met a prostitute who actually liked what she did or wanted to do it. There was always a reason that was coercive in nature.
Go to a gay bath house and get fucked up the ass when you don't feel like it. That's kinda how hoes feel after fucking tricks
There's always a silver lining