It seems that people either love Tom Brady or they think he's the biggest cheater in the world. He is taking his team to the Super Bowl for the ninth time. You wonder what motivates a 41 year old man to keep doing it. Supposedly he and his wife have a combined net worth that is over a half billion.
Probably the best because of his focus, intelligence, and ability to stay fit all of these years and leadership skills. By the way I really wanted the Chiefs to win. Damn offsides penalty!
^It's not like the refs didn't give the Chiefs every chance with those huge chunks of yards they were handing over with those questionable pass interference calls in the last few possessions.
Funny you should ask that I find it hard to think of quarterbacks as GOATs because football is such a team oriented sport but you have a good point I personally think he’s in the running
If you have to pick one, I would pick him in light of bring a team sport, just because a QB has to organize and now the playbook better than anyone else, and then execute in the loudest stadium in the NFL!!
Not a Brady or Pats fan, pretty-much have always rooted against them, but I've come to respect what they've both accomplished - no other NFL player is as accomplished as Brady so based on that he may be the GOAT
He and the Pats have been a bit fortunate to win some of those Super Bowls. The technicality to rule out the fumble to get to the first Super Bowl, Seahawks terrible play calling to give them a chance to intercept the ball to end the game, the Falcons implosion - so many defensive penalties that Brady didn't even need to complete passes. To the Pats credit they capitalized to the max on their opponents mistakes and that is a big part of what makes a winner.
But it's a team game and the overall quality of the Pats allows him to be great and maybe he gets too much credit. For example, in 1967 the Colts tied for the leagues best record (11-1-2) and Johnny Unitas was the league MVP. The next season the Colts again had the best record in the league (13-1) but Unitas was injured that year and the league MVP was the Colts backup QB Earl Morrall. Unitas was considered the greatest of his time.
Brady cannot be the GOAT because of all the cheating and controversy surrounding the team and front office. Being the GOAT also implies an unquestioned record of athletic excellence that the Patriots clearly lack (the unquestioned part). You also do not get to be the GOAT on the merit of capitalizing on the opponents' errors. That could make your play-callers excellent tacticians, but it does not make a player the GOAT.
I have always hated Brady ever since he played for that blue and yellow school up north. Ever since he started in the NFL I have hated his cocky attitude.
However, I have come to recognize that when it comes to QBs he is the GOAT. Sure, a great group of teammates, the most strategically minded coach of all time, a lot of luck and some cheating by those around him bave improved his stats. I don't believe that with everything else being the same that any other quarterback would have had the same amount of success that Brady has had. While I don't believe he would have had as much success if he played for another team like the Bengals, I believe he would have made any other team much better than they were without him.
That being said, I wish he would retire and move to California so SJG could treat him like a GOAT for the rest of his life because I still hate Brady.
I'm a transplant to this area so not a 9ers fan, but up until a few years ago, everyone here KNEW that Montana was the GOAT (rightfully so, IMO, even as a non-fan). Over the past few years that's changed and they tend to get a little panicky around this discussion. They still insist Montana's the GOAT, cite their encyclopedic knowledge of Brady's many misdeeds... but the look on their faces tells me, they realize Brady's probably the GOAT. Still, ain't no one around here going to say that out loud :)
There will always be a new greatest player (baseball, basketball, football). It's partly marketing and partly that everyone wants to believe that we are always advancing and now is the greatest time to be alive. So Unitas, Montana, Brady, and yet to be named.
People also have decency bias, and anchor to old legends. Fact is that everyone has their opinion based on bias. No different than in politics, so I strongly agree either way.
You said, "...I find it hard to think of quarterbacks as GOATs because football is such a team oriented sport...". I couldn't agree more. We in S. Florida had a fellow, one time, that set the league on it's ear with his skills. Couple that with almost no running game and pitiful defense, and you know the results.
Looking at yesterday, and frankly this season, the true GOATs (not an acronym) are the officials.
Name one other QB, of any era, who has accomplished as much as Brady has.
To the ridiculous points about controversy, cheating.etc., every team in the league has been angling for an edge since forever. Research your own team to see examples: http://yourteamcheats.com/ The only reason that the Pats came under such extraordinary scrutiny is because they have accomplished so much for so long.
Beyond Brady's unparalleled accomplishments, as a life long Pats fan who has watched every game for the last two decades, I can tell you that for every year that he has had at least one marquis receiver, he has had a year where you couldn't pick anyone on the receiving core out of a lineup. Brady has consistently made everyone around him better and I've lost track of how many receivers have left the Pats for big paydays elsewhere just to return to mediocrity on their new teams. He is simply a phenom who spent many years putting the team on his back and carrying it into the playoffs.
Also Otto Graham. Won 3 NFL Championships, 4 AAFC Championships and lost 3 NFL Championship Games. He played in his leagues championship game in every year of his 10 year career.
This might be a little OT, I think in the NFL eras are referenced by the great quarterbacks Starr was one era Unitas was another, I happen to think Brady defines this era just like Namath defined the AFL , he didn’t have as much success as Brady, but he put the NFL on its way to becoming the money making machine it has become.
^ as far as the Otto Graham era I will defer to your knowledge after all my dad who passed a few years back at the age of 92 wasn’t even born when Otto was an active football player ;)
It's funny that folks must reach back to guys who played in the pre-NFL days to find comparisons. That of course was during an era where far fewer teams played far fewer games and great teams stayed great for years because players almost never left.
Brady has accomplished everything that he has in the salary cap era, which makes what he's done even more remarkable. The whole point of the salary cap was to level the playing field and give other teams a chance. Add to this agreements negotiated by the NFLPA over the last several years which further increased player mobility and what we have are good teams who are lucky to stay good for 2-3 years before they have to let go of good players. Yet the Pats have been in 8 straight AFC championship games and 9 of the last 17 Superbowls (including the one coming up) and the only consistent face on the field is Tom Brady.
Yes, the Pats have been great consistently for a long time. I hate to say it, but Brady is damn good. But it takes a team to do that, not just a player.
I always wondered what happens to a man who believes in, and cares about, nothing but his own comfort and convenience once he gets old. Now I know. In between getting emotional and snarky with broke young girls watching his family's cultural heritage die away and voting for politicians who hate the only people who would ever welcome him automatically if he had nowhere else to go, he becomes and Internet troll. Interesting. ;)
I was going to say Unitas until the Graham comment but in this era of football it's hard to argue Brady is the best. I'm not sure how you can transfer and compare back 25 years or more since the game has evolved so much to favoring the offense.
BTW if you want to talk about pure talent and results on a subpar team the Redskins had this guy named Jurgensen................he managed to take a 2-12 team and make then 7-7 and most of it was him. ( back when the NFL played 14 in a season)
No denying Brady is VERY good, but a QB's success is so dependent on a lot of variables. There have been a lot of promising QBs that don't succeed simply because of the cards tgey are dealt.
^Actually flag, I think they proved time and again that they couldn't. In fact, Brees had his chance just yesterday and Manning had several bites at the apple. So too did all of the others. Besides Brady, the only other consistent thing the Pats have had over these last 17 years is Belichick and yes he is a great coach, but he's not the only one out there.
Brady has had plenty of years with weak offensive lines, bad defenses, scrubs for receivers, no running game and all of the other normal challenges, yet he has shown a unique ability to make adjustments and overcome adversity. That is what sets him apart. That list is full of great HOF QBs, but Brady is generational for all of the reasons noted.
@Rick, what I mean is that if you replaced him with any of those others they would have had success too.
Matt Cassel did pretty damn well in 2008 (?) when he replaced Brady, transformed that to a big contract and fell off the face of the earth. I think they won the first three games when he was out for cheating using Jacoby Brissett and Jimmy Gaopollo.
I wouldn't put any of them up there in the class of those I listed.
Whenever this conversation comes up I am always reminded of boxing.......when it was with your hands only and not what many associate with fighting today..........Most people my age or younger go to Ali but if you go back 50 years you hear about Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano........problem is they never could fight each other except by computer calculation or even funnier video games.
The differences in rules to protect the fighters and the size of the men involved makes it impossible.
I don't feel the NFL or MLB are all that different. I'm a Steelers fan for instance........love to see Brady playing the 1976 Steelers with 1976 rules and equipment outside in December ---or the Oakland Raiders of that time or even the Minnesota Vikings when they played outdoors, before the dome. No protective shield for the QB's. Not as much hand play for the lineman, headslaps to get free by the DE's. Might point is it is a different game.
Brady is going into Canton, Ohio. He deserves it but he had help along the way as well.
Joe Namath should not be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Most Hall of Fame quarterbacks have thrown for 200-plus touchdowns. Throughout his 13-year career with the New York Jets, Namath threw more interceptions (220) than touchdowns (173). He averaged 17 interceptions a year and eclipsed 20 five times in his career.
His only claim to fame was a ridiculous boast that happened to pan out. In the Super Bowl, with the victory, the Jets became (and remain) the only winning Super Bowl team to score only one touchdown (either offensive, defensive, or special teams). Namath, who completed 17 out of 28 passes for 206 yards, was named as the Super Bowl's most valuable player, despite not throwing a touchdown pass in the game or any passes at all in the fourth quarter. Colt's with their backup QB.
Its too easy for NFL QB's now, I would choose s great QB of years past, maybe Unitas, if I had to pick a GOAT. Brady is in the top 3 of this generation. You have to consider he is working for the best coach. Doubt if he would be top of the list if he played in Buffalo or Cleveland.
As one that saw marino for years, I can say one thing about him. He stood out above all the others. Once GMs figured it out, the QBs position changed. The early stars way back and into the '50s, '60, well, their style would never make a HS team these years.
Lest we forget, Beliichick coached the Browns from 1991 - 1995 and had a 36-44 record, including a final season at 5-11. So yes he's a great coach, but he's no more able to turn shit into gold than any other coach. Also, name a wildly successful QB who didn't have one or more good to great coach(es) to work with.
Flag, to your references to other QBs, Cassel did indeed benefit from a stacked 2008 team, but it wasn't even enough to get them in the playoffs without Brady.
But Garoppolo was a great QB in his own right and he surprised the opposition, who hadn't properly game planned for his ability to throw long laser accurate passes for the one full game he played. Brisset sucked ass. The Pats surprised the opposition by putting in a college style offense for Brisset's first game, including trick plays and designed QB run plays. The shit looked like an Alabama vs. Georgia, lol. But by Brisset's next start the opposition had his limitations figured out and shut the Pats offense down embarrassingly.
Simply put, Belichick would look much less like a genius if Brady couldn't still throw laser accurate passes to the outstretched hands of small and well covered receivers 10-20+ yards away. Brady also has the authority to change plays at the line of scrimmage and does so frequently. The dude is just so good in so many ways that it is impossible to easily list them all.
^Flag, to your references to other QBs, Cassel did indeed benefit from a stacked 2008 team, but it wasn't even enough to get them in the playoffs without Brady. "
They went 11-5. That record gets in the playoffs ALMOST any year.
That was one season out of 17. Most years Brady is not surrounded by that much talent. Shit, look at this year. What Brady has done with this cobbled together receiving core is nothing short of amazing. Almost any other fan base in the league would be whining that the team isn't giving their QB enough weapons.
Why are you getting your panties all in a bunch? Do you have a crush on Brady? He is very good, most all of us have said that. But it is certainly debatable as to whether he is the GOAT (unlike with LeBron in basketball)
BTW, It was only one out of 17 that he sat out the year. I can't manufacture evidence. It is what it is.
I'd be interested to see their winning percentage over that time frame in which he didn't play the majority of offensive snaps versus those in which he did.
My guess is that his will be higher, but not by a significant amount.
Not like the difference in winning percentage for teams with and without the real GOAT, LeBron.
Because I spent the first 30+ years of my life as a fan of a Patriots team that was horrible for most of that time. This includes Belichick's first year coaching the Pats in 2000, where he had the same 5-11 record he had during his last year coaching the Browns. Then Brady arrived on the scene and a dynasty was born, unrivaled by anything that has been seen in the modern era. During some of those years, the team gave him shit to work with, including horrible offensive lines and scrubs who couldn't get open as targets, yet he is so damned talented that he found a way to make it work and carried the Pats on his back into the playoffs. In an age of prima donna QBs who need near perfect conditions to execute at their peak, Brady overcame adversity more times than I can count to give us playoff football almost every year he's been the QB.
LeBron is not the BB GOAT-- that title goes to Michael Jordan.
Regarding Pats and Brady -- I hate them both. Having said that, over the span of his career, Brady has enjoyed more success than any other QB. During his era, grudgingly, I have to admit he is the GOAT.
Let's not forget that Brady has enjoyed career longevity during an era in which QBs have been protected from vicious (often late) hits that shortened or ended careers of many in decades past (i.e., see Jim McMahon). Also his passing targets have enjoyed more freedom from hand checking and targeting unlike receivers is the 70's, 80's and 90's.
Same thing can be said of LeBron vs. Jordan. In his time, Jordan was roughed up on drives in the lane like no one ever gets hit since 2000. In addition to his various successes, this reason only adds to the Jordan mystique.
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But it's a team game and the overall quality of the Pats allows him to be great and maybe he gets too much credit. For example, in 1967 the Colts tied for the leagues best record (11-1-2) and Johnny Unitas was the league MVP. The next season the Colts again had the best record in the league (13-1) but Unitas was injured that year and the league MVP was the Colts backup QB Earl Morrall. Unitas was considered the greatest of his time.
However, I have come to recognize that when it comes to QBs he is the GOAT. Sure, a great group of teammates, the most strategically minded coach of all time, a lot of luck and some cheating by those around him bave improved his stats. I don't believe that with everything else being the same that any other quarterback would have had the same amount of success that Brady has had. While I don't believe he would have had as much success if he played for another team like the Bengals, I believe he would have made any other team much better than they were without him.
That being said, I wish he would retire and move to California so SJG could treat him like a GOAT for the rest of his life because I still hate Brady.
There will always be a new greatest player (baseball, basketball, football). It's partly marketing and partly that everyone wants to believe that we are always advancing and now is the greatest time to be alive. So Unitas, Montana, Brady, and yet to be named.
You said, "...I find it hard to think of quarterbacks as GOATs because football is such a team oriented sport...". I couldn't agree more. We in S. Florida had a fellow, one time, that set the league on it's ear with his skills. Couple that with almost no running game and pitiful defense, and you know the results.
Looking at yesterday, and frankly this season, the true GOATs (not an acronym) are the officials.
To the ridiculous points about controversy, cheating.etc., every team in the league has been angling for an edge since forever. Research your own team to see examples: http://yourteamcheats.com/ The only reason that the Pats came under such extraordinary scrutiny is because they have accomplished so much for so long.
Beyond Brady's unparalleled accomplishments, as a life long Pats fan who has watched every game for the last two decades, I can tell you that for every year that he has had at least one marquis receiver, he has had a year where you couldn't pick anyone on the receiving core out of a lineup. Brady has consistently made everyone around him better and I've lost track of how many receivers have left the Pats for big paydays elsewhere just to return to mediocrity on their new teams. He is simply a phenom who spent many years putting the team on his back and carrying it into the playoffs.
Bart Starr won 5 NFL Championships. Three in a row. Also, QB's in those days called their own plays and the rules have changed to favor the offense.
Mic Drop
Tom Brady 3 times in 17 seasons.
Brady has accomplished everything that he has in the salary cap era, which makes what he's done even more remarkable. The whole point of the salary cap was to level the playing field and give other teams a chance. Add to this agreements negotiated by the NFLPA over the last several years which further increased player mobility and what we have are good teams who are lucky to stay good for 2-3 years before they have to let go of good players. Yet the Pats have been in 8 straight AFC championship games and 9 of the last 17 Superbowls (including the one coming up) and the only consistent face on the field is Tom Brady.
BTW if you want to talk about pure talent and results on a subpar team the Redskins had this guy named Jurgensen................he managed to take a 2-12 team and make then 7-7 and most of it was him. ( back when the NFL played 14 in a season)
I do think that several quartebacks could have done what Brady has done if provided the same circumstances.
Manning
Brees
Marino
Rogers
Elway
Young
Montana
Brady has had plenty of years with weak offensive lines, bad defenses, scrubs for receivers, no running game and all of the other normal challenges, yet he has shown a unique ability to make adjustments and overcome adversity. That is what sets him apart. That list is full of great HOF QBs, but Brady is generational for all of the reasons noted.
https://www.google.com/search?q=gisele+b…:
Agreed ?
No homo.
Matt Cassel did pretty damn well in 2008 (?) when he replaced Brady, transformed that to a big contract and fell off the face of the earth. I think they won the first three games when he was out for cheating using Jacoby Brissett and Jimmy Gaopollo.
I wouldn't put any of them up there in the class of those I listed.
The differences in rules to protect the fighters and the size of the men involved makes it impossible.
I don't feel the NFL or MLB are all that different. I'm a Steelers fan for instance........love to see Brady playing the 1976 Steelers with 1976 rules and equipment outside in December ---or the Oakland Raiders of that time or even the Minnesota Vikings when they played outdoors, before the dome. No protective shield for the QB's. Not as much hand play for the lineman, headslaps to get free by the DE's. Might point is it is a different game.
Brady is going into Canton, Ohio. He deserves it but he had help along the way as well.
RE: Your Namath love affair.
Joe Namath should not be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Most Hall of Fame quarterbacks have thrown for 200-plus touchdowns. Throughout his 13-year career with the New York Jets, Namath threw more interceptions (220) than touchdowns (173). He averaged 17 interceptions a year and eclipsed 20 five times in his career.
His only claim to fame was a ridiculous boast that happened to pan out. In the Super Bowl, with the victory, the Jets became (and remain) the only winning Super Bowl team to score only one touchdown (either offensive, defensive, or special teams). Namath, who completed 17 out of 28 passes for 206 yards, was named as the Super Bowl's most valuable player, despite not throwing a touchdown pass in the game or any passes at all in the fourth quarter. Colt's with their backup QB.
Lot's more if wish to look them up!
Brady is in the top 3 of this generation. You have to consider he is working for the best coach.
Doubt if he would be top of the list if he played in Buffalo or Cleveland.
If he spent his career with a lesser coach - or was traded - his career may have been less impressive. But luck does play a role in the game too.
Flag, to your references to other QBs, Cassel did indeed benefit from a stacked 2008 team, but it wasn't even enough to get them in the playoffs without Brady.
But Garoppolo was a great QB in his own right and he surprised the opposition, who hadn't properly game planned for his ability to throw long laser accurate passes for the one full game he played. Brisset sucked ass. The Pats surprised the opposition by putting in a college style offense for Brisset's first game, including trick plays and designed QB run plays. The shit looked like an Alabama vs. Georgia, lol. But by Brisset's next start the opposition had his limitations figured out and shut the Pats offense down embarrassingly.
Simply put, Belichick would look much less like a genius if Brady couldn't still throw laser accurate passes to the outstretched hands of small and well covered receivers 10-20+ yards away. Brady also has the authority to change plays at the line of scrimmage and does so frequently. The dude is just so good in so many ways that it is impossible to easily list them all.
They went 11-5. That record gets in the playoffs ALMOST any year.
BTW, It was only one out of 17 that he sat out the year. I can't manufacture evidence. It is what it is.
I'd be interested to see their winning percentage over that time frame in which he didn't play the majority of offensive snaps versus those in which he did.
My guess is that his will be higher, but not by a significant amount.
Not like the difference in winning percentage for teams with and without the real GOAT, LeBron.
Regarding Pats and Brady -- I hate them both. Having said that, over the span of his career, Brady has enjoyed more success than any other QB. During his era, grudgingly, I have to admit he is the GOAT.
Let's not forget that Brady has enjoyed career longevity during an era in which QBs have been protected from vicious (often late) hits that shortened or ended careers of many in decades past (i.e., see Jim McMahon). Also his passing targets have enjoyed more freedom from hand checking and targeting unlike receivers is the 70's, 80's and 90's.
Same thing can be said of LeBron vs. Jordan. In his time, Jordan was roughed up on drives in the lane like no one ever gets hit since 2000. In addition to his various successes, this reason only adds to the Jordan mystique.
You are wrong. LeBron is the GOAT. No explanation is required.