Programable Hand Held Calculators

Are scientific calcs down to like $9.99 since this is 2018? They were a rip off 20 years ago but smh if schools are still forcing kids to pay close to $100 for one today.

No, some are very cheap today. My first one cost about $50 mid 70's. Led display, 4x AA cells. I changed to using nicads. When batteries went low, answers for trig functions started to change.

Then I got a Casio one, $40, LCD, very nice, very small battery. Could remember one formula.


Then I got an HP-41C, very expensive because I bought the card reader, printer, and program modules. Batteries would get used up because you could let it run long programs, and the card reader. I went to the factory nicad system. But it was awesome in its mathematical capabilities! Totally blew me away. I loved writting and using programs for that. Besides modules, I bought stuff out of the card library from the HP-67


$12, cheap enough?
https://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp/hp-10s-sc…

But do you really want to do things on a calculator, small display, small keyboard, limited storage and power use? Or do you want to use a desk top computer?

Aren't calculators just for taking exams? Not real interested in that.

SJG

I bought one of the HP-35s when they came out back in 1973. That sucker cost me $400 and I waited 6 weeks for it. That was a lot of bucks for an engineering student back then and ate up about half my savings from my co-op period.

A few months after I bought it, HP came out with the 45, $400, and dropped the 35 to $335. One of the guys in the class behind me razzed me about that. I told him that the 35 had gotten me through Thermo 2 unscathed, and that was easily worth $65!

After I started work, I bought an HP-25, the first programmable. A few years later, I gave that one to my brother and bought a 41C, together with a mag card reader, optical bar code reader and app books, printer and four memory modules. Total price was about $1500. That was my computer for the next six years. I still own the 41C, and it still works quite well, although these days I use disposable N size batteries as the Ni-Cads gave up the ghost and I could no longer buy replacements.

I now mostly use a scientific calculator app in RPN mode on my smart phone.

I always knew you were a super nerd.

Texas Instruments always came out with great products

San Jose Guy, come to Texas! Men with your interests tend to love me, so I am very confident I can make you happy.

I just ask that you don’t strangle me to death during a dance, or whatever other members suspect you would do.

^^^ the only way Lloyd would get a lapdance is if you or his mom paid for it.

Nicespice he'd come but it would take him about three months to get there since he'd be riding on his huffy bike all the way from San Jose. You'd better be ready for him to be trying to stick his tongue down your mouth right there in the front room in front of everyone the whole time. And then plan to be waking up next to him every morning. Or at least that's what he always talks about over and over.

@shailynn: Guilty as charged, and darn proud of it! ;-)

I couldn’t resist reading this thread. It has nothing to do with strip clubs - but those HP calculators - and their funky computational notation system worked quite well. I had a couple HP-12C calculators - and I think I still have one in my desk drawer.

There are some decent graphing calculators out now - and they allow certain models to be used when taking the SAT. They offer some basic programming logic - and they have multi line displays.

Nerd checking in ...
This is my favorite RPL calculator for day to day: (with /Skins/HP48G/Real48GX.xml)

m48 - HP 48GX emulator - by Markus Gonser
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/m48/id33…
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/m48/id34…

There's a similar one for Android.

Here's what I use for RPN on Windows: https://sourceforge.net/projects/rpncalc…

I agree with the others that scientific and graphic calcs are mainly for tests and for students. Most people in industry use a computer with math software, write a quick program, or just use Excel. My favorites are Python or Mathcad. :)

Thanks folks for posting here, many of us really made use of HP RPN calculators.

As far as TI, well they work. But I really like the RPN, and I love the HP buttons and form and feel.

Dominic, thanks for the emulator program links, and that sourceforge link.

You know that HP-41's introduced alpha numeric promptings, but they did not actually have alpha numeric variables. So data still went into numbered memory registers. So it was still Reverse Polish Notation, RPN.

Now I have never used the HP-48, or the 49 and 50 which followed it. My understanding is that these actually do have alpha numeric variables, and so it is became Reverse Polish Language, RPL.

But I think an issue does arise, do you really want that in a hand held calculator, still with a small keyboard and display, or would you rather just have a computer.

Aren't calculators just for taking school examinations?

So with their new HP Prime, they seem to have gone back, to RPN, and though it graphs, it still looks much like an HP-41

Since I want to understand all such things to have good Over Watch, I am getting a book about the HP-48 very soon, and I will be getting other books.

I will also be looking at the Forth computer language, as it was RPN, so I read.

And I will check out all the links.

Python is nice, and so is Mathcad. Used the later extensively and long ago. Real good. And then there is Matematica, and what I like is MATLAB. And then there are symbolic math programs. And then so much good work can be done with common spread sheets. I notice that Elon Musk obviously does a great deal with these spread sheets. That is the mark of someone who understands because he knows what approximations to make. He can figure out that he can more cheaply build his own rockets to launch smaller satellites, instead of buying ICBM's from the Russians.

For calculators, I think the main thing is that you do not need to re-enter numbers. You use one result to get another result, etc. And you might want to program in the std physical constants. But on a computer with disk drives and ll, you could do much more. I feel that all of these programs still have limits which could be transcended.

The HP calculators were great, doing calculations to go into a program, and then doing more at the end. It all worked so well.

And then in industry, sometimes simulation programs are just used as a busy box, a way to hire people who know little, and to make for a division of labor. This kind of stuff can be very discouraging.

SJG

HP-41 did tremendous things. But it was never like having a computer in the palm of your hand. Memory was always limited. I used the card reader, expensive, but most people did not.

HP-48, I know that is much more like a computer in your hand, could do far more. But do you really want that or a computer.

I say that there is much more room for improvement in available software today.

SJG

So ATACdawg had an HP-35, 45, and 25
"I bought one of the HP-35s when they came out back in 1973. That sucker cost me $400"

35
http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp35.htm

http://www.hpmuseum.org/35first.jpg

45
http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp45.htm

has shift key
http://www.hpmuseum.org/45.jpg

25, starting to look like the ones I am used to.
http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp25.htm

http://www.hpmuseum.org/25.jpg

HP-10, $12
https://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp/hp-10s-sc…

Cashman1234 had an HP-12. Actually so did I, and I had the finance module for my HP-41.

The main thing in that was this Net Present Value, Amortized Interest, there were 5 variables. You could supply any 4 and it would find the 5th. Only with the interest rate was an iterative solution needed. Don't remember if these did days between dates, but it did do stuff with the number 12.

I think really though you need a computer where the software for things like the tax codes could be updated. Need a full Management Info and Accounting System.

As I remember, 12 was part of a series

10, basic 4 function
11, intro scientific?
12, finance
15, advanced scientific
16, the wide one, hexadecimal, octal, binary etc. I had one of these too.

So Dominic had an HP-48. To me that was the one which broke the box, more like a computer, then HP-49, and then HP-50. 50, as I know was the one which did not have a fully custom chip, but instead used an ARM processor.

Dominic provided these emulation program links:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/m48/id33…

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/m48/id34…

And then source forge
https://sourceforge.net/projects/rpncalc…

If you are going to write programs beyond trivial, you need mass storage. Hence the HP-67 and its card reader.

I bought the optional card reader for my HP-41, as I knew I would write programs. I bought rechageable batteries and lots of cards. I bought plug in modules, and I bought Hp-67 user written programs.

Internally the 41 could do 5th order polynomial roots, or actually it was in the math pack, along with complex numbers. But what I bought could do 20th order, and I also bought a partial fraction expansion and root locus program. All really really cool. I wrote a bernoulii probability program, and lots of other stuff. But beyond a point, computer required instead.

HP came out with the Interace Loop, HP-IL. Another way to do I/O, and connect to computers and other outside devices. But all costly too.

Then for the 48, they had an Infrared interface. To me, this seems best.

Do not know of their new HP-Prime, $132 has this. I would say that it should, and also their top of the line finance model. Should be able to download finance programs for the Scientific model.

Thanks for the info,
SJG

So here, looking again at the HP-Prime
https://www.globalindustrial.com/p/offic…

So we have some kind of connectivity kit, and something for wireless classroom use:

https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Tablets-an…

http://www8.hp.com/us/en/images/HP_Prime…

So the HP-48 could have the Interface Loop ( HP-IL ), but it also had an infrared link. Now looks like the HP-Prime has a USB on it. There is some kit, but maybe all you need is a USB cable.

So though the HP-41 did not have graphing, looks like they have backed the HP-Prime down from the HP-48 level, RPN, not RPL, likely alpha numeric prompting, but probably not alpha numeric variables. Keeping it within sensible limits, as they assume you have access to a personal computer.

I'll have my HP-48 book in hand very soon.

SJG

Mark Passio on the Chaos Sorcery of 9/11 - Kabbalah, Tarot & Freemasonry - Symbolism and Numerology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXOJHZho…

Tiphareth (Tree of Life / Sephira)
http://www.wisdomsdoor.com/tol/tiphareth…

Steely Dan, 2000
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZA62ZmZ…

Daily Digit: Teens don't think Facebook is cool anymore
https://www.yahoo.com/news/daily-digit-t…
I have always disliked Facebook. There have actually been lots of things like it before. Myspace was okay.

Discovering calculus with the HP-28 and the HP-48 / Robert T. Smith, Roland B. Minton ( 1991 )

https://www.amazon.com/Discovering-Calcu…

And remember those HP-28's, unfolding with buttons on both sides:

http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp28c.htm

http://www.hpmuseum.org/img/28cs.jpg

http://www.hpmuseum.org/img/28cm.jpg

http://www.hpmuseum.org/3qs/28c3q.jpg


Now first of all, about the book, it is more about calculus than it is about calculators. But when it comes to people like these authors, who have earned doctorates in Mathematics, they are going to command my respect in a way which few others ever could.

It sounds like the 28 came out a couple of years before the 48. The book talks about RPN (Reverse Polish Notation), but never about RPL (Reverse Polish Language). But these machines are clearly using RPL.

They are very much different from my HP-41. With that you had the standard 4 level stack, they called it, from the bottom, x, y, z, t. But these newer machines have nearly infinite stacks, having 32k bytes of memory.

So in the stack you can enter a real number. You can also use the hash tag to make it binary. Leading 0 to make it Octal, leading with Ox to make it hexadecimal. It shows this on the front face of the model 28, that it is 'objects' which go on the stack. Lead with double quotes for strings, and single quotes for variables, parentheses for complex, square braces for vectors and double square braces for a matrix.

Curly braces for a list. single quotes for an algebraic equation, and double less than for a program.


In my opinion this is all very interesting, but they have gone beyond the point where this is really workable. A calculator will always have limits in size of keyboard and display, and that it does not have disk drives. Beyond a point, you want a desk top computer instead.

And I feel somewhat vindicated in this in that as I know, HP followed on with the 49, and it did more than the 48. Then the 50, which presumably did more, and it was the first to have an ARM processor, instead of a fully custom chip. But then they have dropped all these. And now they have the HP-PRIME, which undoubtedly does much, but they don't talk about RPL any more, only RPN. So I feel that they have scaled back.

I also notice that in their stored equations and programs on the 48 and 28, they are algebraic, not RPN. With my 41, it as all RPN keystrokes, nothing algebraic at all.

And then as much as their 28 and 48 do, with all the various data objects, I feel that it still does not go far enough to do all which is commonly required in applied mathematics.

In particular, it often goes to matrices where the elements are not just polynomials in a complex varialble, but rational polynomial functions in a complex variable. So you need to be able to do all manner of root finding, factoring, multiplications, and then root locus diagrams. And this is for Frequency Domain. For Time Domain you also get into similar types of math.

And then there are newer things too, and some stuff starting to use Tensor Analysis, formerly reserved only for General Relativity, and there is still more which has come in.

So while it has gone beyond workability for a calculator, I feel that it still does not go anywhere's near what is really needed. MATLAB and Mathematic do much, but I feel that there is still a vacuum.

And then so much of the 28 and 48 is about graphing. And then TI does this too, and the new HP-Prime also.

But if you are taking a test you can use a calculator to get high precision answers easily. But if you need it to show you how to graph stuff, and with asymptotes and all, you are in deep shit. You do not understand the material. The calculator then will just waste you time.

If on the other hand you want to explore a new and interesting topic in graphs, a desktop computer can do a better job.

So enough said.

SJG

Let me now try to record some of their most interesting references, old math books like I love:

Ahmed N., and K.R. Rao: Orthogonal Transforms for Digital Signal Processing, Springer-Verlag, 1975

Barnsley, Michael: Fractals Everywhere, Academic Press, 1988

Berg, Paul, and James McGregor: Elementary Partial Differential Equations, Holden-Day, 1966

Bone, Dorothea: "Music and the Circular Functions," UMAP module #588, CO-MAP, Inc, 1983

Boyce, William, and Richard DiPrima: Elementary Differential Equations and Boundary Value Problems, Wiley, 1986

Burden, Richard, and J. Douglas Faires: Numerical Analysis, 4th Edition, PWS-Kent, 1989

Churchill, Ruel, and James Brown: Fourier Series and Boundary Value Problems, McGraw-Hill, 1978

Conte, Samuel, and Carl deBoor: Elementray Numerical Analysis, 3rd ed, McGraw-Hill, 1980

Devaney, Robert: An Introduction to Chaotic Dynamical Systems, 2nd ed, Addison-Wesley, 1989

Feller, William: An Introduction to Probability Theory and Its Applications, vol 1, 3rd ed, Wiley, 1950

An Introduction to Probability Theory and Its Applications, vol 2, WIley, 1966

Friedhoff, R.M. and William Benzon: Visualization, Abrams, 1989

Johnson, Lee, and R. Dean Riess: Numerical Analysis, 2nd ed, Addison-Wesley, 1982

Peitgen, H-O., and D. Saupe, ed.: The Science of Fractal Images, Springer-Verlag, 1988

Raven, Francis: The Mathematics of Engineering Systems, McGraw-Hill, 1966

Thompson, J.M.T., and H.B. Stewart: Nonlinear Dynamics and Chaos, Wiley, 1986

Wickes, William, HP-28 Insights, Larken, Corvallis, OR, 1988

( I love books like the above. And viewing some of them in large academic libraries and the Stanford Book Store always brings tears to my eyes. The organization which I am in the very beginnings of creating will make huge buildings with acres and acres of floor space and shelving and automatic retrieval machines, and it will fill them with such books.)

SJG

Also, about spread sheets. Last night doing some business computations on paper. Would have helped to have had a calculator. But what would have helped more was a computer with a spread sheet. Very useful. I have used such for all sorts of things, not just money.

I note that Elon Musk is often using spread sheets for technical problems. A guy who can do that clearly understands the subject matter. He knows the math and knows what approximations he can make.

Ever seen this, the Engineering student from CSU Los Angeles, using his slide rule and making computations about the jet powered drag racer, that guy knows his stuff, knows what approximations he can make.
Lively Set, 1964
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058296/

Semiconductor and Electronics circuits industries use commercial simulation programs, and they hire herds of frat boys who can barely tie their shoes. The computers are busy boxes, they make for a division of labor. Real dumb, like enough monkeys with enough type writers.

SJG

So from the back of the book, from McGraw-Hill:


Calculus and Analytic Geometry, Sherman K. Stein and Anthony Barcellios


Calculus for Business, Economics, and the Social and Life Sciences, Laurence D. Hoffman and Gerald L. Bradley


Explorations In Calculus With A Computer Algebra System, Donald B. Small and John M. Hosack



Having read more of this now, the HP-48 can do some symbolic math, like taking a symbolic inverse of a formula, and finding a symbolic derivative of many things. But do you need this in a calculator?


It also talks about the example given in:

https://www.amazon.com/Complexity-Guided…

Bifurcation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bifurcatio…


Again though, do you want that in a calculator?


It is a valid question, can you assume that people have personal computers? And in 1991?


Now if they have a programing language, they can make the computer do what they want. But do they also have good mathematical packages? I say the answer still tends to be no. Spread sheets, which are useful, but not much else.


Matrix math gives compact notation. But actually working things out is very involved. The standard way of formulating aerospace problems is a 12 x 12 matrix.


And usually in most applications areas, the elements of the matrix can be rational polynomial functions where the coefficients are algebraic functions of system parameters. This goes way way beyond what someone can be expected to do on an exam. But still, they need that computing power available to them.


Now yes, with my HP-41, I could just plug in the numbers from a problem stated on the exam, and push a button and get all the answers. Then I would also work it out by hand, and explain everything and show all the intermediate results, and get the same final answer, and then turn in the 3 hour exam after only 30 min.


But these types of exam situations should not be the measure of what all is needed.


SJG


Draw Bridge Ghost Town Near San Jose, sinking into the mud and water, global sea level climb of 6 to 8 inches already.

http://www.timesheraldonline.com/article…


Another Python book, "Python Programming on Win32", by Mark Hammond and Andy Robinson

I don't want to come across as unduly harsh about the HP-48. All the extra, as I see it, functionality does make it harder to use for basic stuff.

I wrote and bought lots of programs for my HP-41, but most people who bought them never did that.

SJG

So DrunkPraetorian, you like TI. Care to tell us which ones you've owned, and what you liked and didn't like about them.

What do they offer today. I remember TI-84 was a big one.

Every try HP, like the buttons? Like the RPN?

How about Casio, anyone use them. I had one I liked very much. I actually ended up having two the same. No complaints.

Any other makes?

SJG

I just remember using Texas Instrument calculators when I was younger, don’t remember models. I think they made a few word playing games also

Some like me liked the HP buttons and the RPN better. TI made models like the 50, and others with numbers in the 50's. But these were LED, and so they needed big batteries.

The newer stuff I do not know much about. But overall I think there is a vacuum in what people have available to them on their computers.

SJG

TI-83 being offered for $8.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/TI-83-Plus-Ca…

SJG

Sjg you need to go to tj buddy!

Countryman, I am tied down. You and some others need some lessons in respecting privacy.

And until you learn this, you don't need to be calling me buddy.

SJG

^ "tied down" translation -> "homeless and broke and too narcissistic to admit"

In other words you need to get laid so you will stop rambling off all that useless shit

Countryman, SHUT THE FUCK UP!

You know nothing about me or my life. Until you can demonstrate that you have learned to respect my privacy, I don't want to hear one word from you. Go soak your head.

SJG

But i guess it is was it is when hour stuck in your mothers basement! I feel sorry for your goat sjg way to overworked!

I couldn't give a shit about you or your goat's life lol

Countryman, if you were doing this f2f, I'd consider you a probable suicidal.

SJG

You need to calm your ass down clown! Remember you snapped at me first!

Trust sjg everyone on here does not like you you have been an annoying pain in the ass for years

No Countryman, you assumed you knew something about my f2f life. You disrespected my privacy.

I heard the 'whack', just like if someone tossed a coconut up in the air and then connected it with an aluminum bat.

But it was the sound of your head striking my steel and concrete privacy wall. My wall is clearly marked and clearly visible. But for some reason, some like yourself still choose to run into it head first.

You need to learn to respect people's privacy, mine and others. Otherwise you come across as one who is seeking suicide.

SJG

Sjg you can have all the privacy you want wackjob! But privacy has nothing to do with you continously raping everyone's eyeballs with your neverending useless bullshit! You have a good day moron!

Countryman, you need to learn to respect people's privacy. And if you don't like my posts, you have the IGNORE option. I for one could not care less what you think.

SJG

Nor do i care what you think moron!

Nor does anyone else care what you think

Discovering calculus with the HP-28 and the HP-48 / Robert T. Smith, Roland B. Minton

Getting ready to return this. It is a good book. Want to just document some of the things it talks about:

Project typeset using TEX.

So we have a Solver. And it can also do Taylor Polynomials.

About limits we have the Pinching Theorem, or the Sandwich Theorem.

Slopes of secant and tangent lines.

Numerical Differentiation.

Tangent Line Approximations.

Euler's Method, solving differential equations from a set of initial conditions.

Rootfinding Methods:

Method of Bisections

Newton's Method

Secant Method

handling multiple roots

Extrema and Absolute Extrema

Area and Riemann Sums

Signed Area

Computation of Integrals

The Fundamental Theorem of Calculus

Estimating Area With Trapezoids

Simpson's Rule

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27…

Area between curves, probability theory, volume of a solid revolution, computing distance from velocity

Orthogonal Transforms for Digital Signal Processing, by Ahmed and Rao.

Legender Polynomials.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legendre_p…

Lagrange Multipliers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_m…

Change of independent variable

Area as Integrals with respect to y

Polar Coordinates

Graphing a spiral

Sequences and Series:

Limit of a Sequence

Trig Functions and Powers of N

Polynomials and Exponentials

Infinite Series

from Newton's Method

Harmonic Series

Geometric Series

p-Series

Alternating Series

TAYLOR SERIES, taylor polynomials

Fourier Series

inverse Fourier series, again, the Ahmed and Rao book.


SJG

Lagrange Equations:

https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/aeronautics-…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%E2%8…

Lagrange Mechanics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%E2%8…

https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/aeronautics-…

Aerospace

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/ma…

Hamiltonian Mechanics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamiltonia…

Matrix Math
http://www.iaeng.org/publication/WCE2010…




Aerospace Mechanics:

https://aerospaceengineeringmathsgroup.w…

People need to be able to do more math, more than you could ever do best on even the greatest of hand held calculators. The standard aerospace formulation, 6 degrees of freedom, 2nd derivatives, is a 12 by 12 state space matrix.

SJG

Tensor Analysis? Not just for General Relativity anymore?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Kr…

His stuff is out there, and other people don't do it his way. But he used tensor analysis for AC multi-phase circuit analysis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diakoptics

http://ethw.org/Philip_L._Alger

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensor

People need to be able to do more math, and computers are part of that way!

SJG

Aerospace:

https://www.amazon.com/Orbital-Mechanics…

https://www.amazon.com/Mechanics-High-Pe…

https://www.amazon.com/Analytical-Mechan…

Need to be able to do more math!

SJG

MATH Toolkit for REAL-TIME Programming, Jack W. Crenshaw, 2000

CMP Media, Lawrence Kansas

Seems to deal in C++.

But also talks about Pascal and extensively about Fortran.

Has all the stuff you would want on a scientific calculator

SJG

So in:

Discovering calculus with the HP-28 and the HP-48 / Robert T. Smith, Roland B. Minton write that calculus is the central part of "analysis"

Well that of course means:

Principles of mathematical analysis / Walter Rudin.

and Rudin's other books. His wife was also a mathematician, and they lived on the outskirts of Madison in their eusonian built for them by Frank Lloyd Wright.

But there are also newer books such as:

A first course in mathematical analysis / David Alexander Brannan (2006)

SJG


SJG

Ginger Baker's Air Force
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe9DA8pO…

WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy:

san_jose_guy - commonly referred to as SJG this forum member is usually mocked or ignored, his comments should NOT be taken in any way as legitimate

FORTH
the forth-generation language
by Steve Burnap
Tab Books 1986

So I have finished with the above. I could write many pages about it, but for now I will keep it short.

So Forth is very similar to the HP RPN calculators.

And I had not known this, even though I've written lots of programs for such calculators.

Now I do not mean the HP 48/49/50, which have what they call Reverse Polish Language. That was a kind of a compromise which allowed standard infix writing of formuli.

No, I mean the way the rest of their products always worked, Reverse Polish Notation, like the HP-41, 67, 65, and earlier.

So for a calculator this is fine, but for a computer, it is too limited. Some kinds of embedded systems maybe, but we still have newer languages which do so much more.

Because this pForth is so small, and the interpreter open source and written in C, and designed to run with little else for an operating system, it still could have some uses.

But I need now to maybe read more forth books, and online documentation, and more about the new langauges.

There is similarity between Forth and Wirth's Oberon, and SmallTalk. Integrated programming and run time environment, blurs boundary between interpreted and compiled, and keeps your variable and function names alive as program is being run.

Very terse. If it like anything, I would say it is like BASIC.

As far as code size, BASIC is about 1/2 size of PASCAL, and Forth about 1/2 size of BASIC.

We have had these BASIC STAMP RABBIT boards for some years now, I guess displacing Forth? But now these Raspberry PI's are used with Python, as I know.

Ruby looks even better, and there is this new Io language.

Is Forth 4th generation? Very different from most of the other stuff argued to be 4th gen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth-gen…

Seems like today for most stuff you want at least some Functional Programming support, to go along with the concurrency. So Forth to me is interesting, but not 4th gen. It is different though.

If I didn't take the time to read the old books, and if libraries did not still have them, there is no way I would no. School can never teach you but a small portion of what you need in order to be able to do original work.

Need to get:


Łukasiewicz, Jan



Title Elementy logiki matematycznej. English
Elements of mathematical logic. Translated from Polish by Olgierd Wojtasiewicz



Imprint New York : Macmillan [1964]

Above is the source for HP RPN, and maybe also for FORTH.

SJG

Hey SJG, get yourself a copy of GNU Emacs, fire it up, and run a program called "calc." It'll blow your mind. Even RMS was impressed.

Okay, do you have a link to this, or is it just part of the distribution.

I know that really a calculator program is more like a specialized text editor.

But my interests go beyond anything HP has ever made, into realms beyond MATLAB.

Thanks,
SJG

WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy:

san_jose_guy - commonly referred to as SJG this forum member is usually mocked or ignored, his comments should NOT be taken in any way as legitimate

http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual…

Says it is like the HP 28 and 48. Book I talk about above is all about that. It is impressive, but that and MATLAB are my starting point. And I spend years programming and HP-41 too.

SJG

Mystic Siva - Under the Influence 1969-1970 (FULL ALBUM) [Progressive Rock/ Psychedelic Rock]
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This book, editions from the 70's, show a program called TOTAL, written in Fortran and coming from the Air Force. It does things and HP 28 or 48, or MATLAB could never do.

https://www.amazon.com/Linear-Control-Sy…

SJG

WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy:

san_jose_guy - commonly referred to as SJG this forum member is usually mocked or ignored, his comments should NOT be taken in any way as legitimate

So this language APL, it is a good highly interactive mathematics system. Must have influenced the HP RPN Calculators, MATLAB, SETL, R, the idea of a Spread Sheet, and they say the language Perl.

APL actually started in 1962.

And I'll have this soon:
Title Elementy logiki matematycznej. English
Elements of mathematical logic. Translated from Polish by Olgierd Wojtasiewicz

Originally from 1930's, in Polish. This English translation, 1964.

SJG

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@SJG, Calc is now built-in to GNU Emacs. It has a wonderful tutorial included, as well.

Thanks, I saw that on its website.

There are still questions about what really is best. Do you want to make a calculator like a computer, HP-48?

Do you want to make a computer like a calculator?

I say that then answer to both questions should be no.

SJG

In hand now:

Title Elementy logiki matematycznej. English
Elements of mathematical logic. Translated from Polish by Olgierd Wojtasiewicz

Originally from 1930's, in Polish. This English translation, 1964.

It is a small book, International Series of Monographs in Pure and Applied Mathematics volume 31, S Ulam listed as one of the three series editors.

second polish edition published 1958

Pergamon Press Book, 1963


Original publication February 28, 1929, Warsaw.

Original author's preface included.

SJG

So reading:

Elements of mathematical logic, by Łukasiewicz, Jan, translated from Polish by Olgierd Wojtasiewicz
Title Elementy logiki matematycznej. English
Imprint New York : Macmillan [1964]

Cataloged as BC 135

http://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/lcco/lcco…

BC1-199 Logic

Book reads very easy, friendly kind of a style.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_%C5%81…
lived later part of his life in Ireland. Developed three-valued propositional calculus, a three level logic system.

Let me get her some of his English Language refs:

Lots of talk about George Boole, 1854

Talk about Gottlob Frege
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottlob_Fr…

Stuff by and about his is available in English.

D. Hilbert, very available in English and some of his stuff is widely utilized:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hilb…

And then Whitehead and Russel, Principia Mathematica, second edition 1925

To Be Continued

SJG

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So Łukasiewicz begins by trying to distinguish Mathematical Logic from Philosophical Logic.

And then he talks about Aristotle of Stagira and his syllogism.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/arist…

And so Łukasiewicz works to distinguish terms from sentences, and how Aristotle's syllogism, taught correctly, uses terms. The sentences go with the Stoic syllogism. And logically the Stoic syllogism predates Aristotle.

Logic of sentences versus logic of terms.

Logic of the Stoics versus Logic of Aristotle,

the former is the logic of sentences, the latter the logic of terms.

To prove a theorem, use the logic of sentences.

For making inferences, use the logic of terms.

If I were not reading this book, I would never have even thought about any of this. And if at least some libraries were not holding on to this book, I would not even have had the chance to read it.

I can read this now, not in conventional college, as I have made time. And I am not married or otherwise having to justify what I do to anyone.

SJG

So finishing up with the Jan Łukasiewicz book

He talks about two different rules of inference, detachment and substitution.

He works out a compact notation and this Sentential Calculus.

And a big part of this is the elimination of parentheses.

Okay. For me though the HP RPN is great. RPL with the HP-48 was going too far. But I believe that with their new HP-Prime, that they have backed it down some.

The stuff in this Łukasiewicz, to me it seems like what you would want for languages like Lisp, Prolog, Elixir, Scala, Haskel, and Clojure.

SJG

Programming FPGAs : getting started with Verilog / Simon Monk. (2017)

The ARRL handbook for radio communications 2017 / H. Ward Silver, editor.


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So for HP-48, from above:

So in the stack you can enter a real number. You can also use the hash tag to make it binary. Leading 0 to make it Octal, leading with Ox to make it hexadecimal. It shows this on the front face of the model 28, that it is 'objects' which go on the stack. Lead with double quotes for strings, and single quotes for variables, parentheses for complex, square braces for vectors and double square braces for a matrix.

So it has this hierarchy of compounded variable types, and the RPN stack accepts this. But they stopped calling it RPN (Reverse Polish Notation ) they called it RPL (Reverse Polish Language)

Then they had HP-49 and HP-50, and then getting away from the custom chips and going to ARM Processor and software they had HP-51.

But had they gone to far and do you really want all this in a handheld calculator. For engineering math you need all this and even more, but in a calculator?

So they seem to have gone back to RPN for this new HP Prime.


SJG

HP Prime v2, $123.00
https://www.amazon.com/2AP18AA-ABA-Prime…

How Often Do You Use Algebra
https://tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=7896…

So looking at the compound variable types on the Hp-48, is that enough or do we need more?

I say we need more!

But not on a hand held calculator, in a general mathematics class library, and in an interactive mathematics program running on a desktop computer. And you want the option of backing this up with an array processor server for both floating point (128 bit) and integer (128 bit)

And what more do we want?

Well, it has vectors and matrices. But we need tensors to, for general relativity, and also because Gabriel Kron wrote two books and showed that you can use tensors for other stuff:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Kr…

And we want something special for quantum mechanics.

And we want a very open general purpose simulation engine we can do things on.

And we want something special for factorials, because these blow up the fastest and most of the stuff in digital communications theory involves probabilty and permutations and combinations. Most of the factors will cancel out, but you need to store them as a talley of factors.

ANd also for fractions, want to store numerator and denominator as list of prime factors.

ANd then want ways to quickly get long lists if prime numbers, by adding stuff to your known primes.

And then stuff to work with less commonly used number bases.

SJG

Mathematics
https://tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=6107…

X
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LInxU2dW…

So are their other variable types that you need?

Well first of all, this is really all software now. HP-48, 49, 50, had custom chips. But Hp-51 and beyond use an ARM processor and it was all done in software.

And then object oriented languages are made so you can define your own variable types and define the methods for accessing them.

And then I am really looking at stuff that would run on computers, not on calculators.

So of course you want polynomials. And really you need rational polynomials, numberator and denominator. And then you will need stuff like finding roots, complex conjugate being done in pairs to preserve accuracy, factoring, synthetic division, partial fraction expansion, and lock and load root locus.

Then there are closely related characteristic polynomials of a matrix.

And then since above is about eigenvalues, there are lots of such thing. Consider quantum mechanical problems being addressed with the Schrodinger Equation. You have to find the allowable eigenvalues for the boundary conditions, and the associated solutions, and then the solution to your problem will be a superposition of these found from the boundary conditions.

So you want an Eigen and Solutions variable type. So there are atoms, them molecules, and Walter Harrison's Linear Combinations of Atomic Orbitals, and all kinds of work to develop more magnetic materias and exotic semiconductors, and much more.

So you might have this on your desk top, with a big array processor behind it. You select a fabrication process, then do it, then measure it, then update the quantum material modelling to proceed further. You can do this because you have the good computing software.

Lots of problems like this and lots of more variable types such needed.

SJG

ROAR!!!

So many variables, so much caca!

TUSCL - SJG = peace

Try that equation out SJG.

“Roar!”= Bacon!

Bump lulz