MJ said LeBron wasn't in the running, based on ring count. Using MJ's standard, the answer is obvious-- Bill Russell. 9 rings in 11 years, preceded by an Olympic gold (when only college players represented the U.S.) and back to back NCAA championships.
Nah, he's more like a modern day Shaq in his prime, but at the point forward position. Dominated his position (wing and forward) at a time (last 5-10 years) that there weren't and aren't that many great (HOF) wings and forwards in their prime, similar to how Shaq played against no great centers in their prime when he was "the most dominant ever" (Olajuwon and Robinson were in their decline or retired by the early 2000s and Yao did enter the league until 2002 where he was still pretty raw). Who were the great small forwards in the league in the last 5-10 years besides Durant? Or shooting guards? LeBron never faced Kobe in the Finals, and Kobe was just a shadow of himself the last several years of his career. Leonard and Harden have only very recently emerged. Or power forwards (Duncan ten years ago was a way better defender, scorer and rebounder; ditto KG and a lesser degree Nowitzki who was never a good defender) or even centers to keep LeBron out of the paint? No elite defenders (man to man) today either, except maybe Leonard. Draymond Green does play excellent team defense though.
Excellent passer and playmaker, i'll give him that, one of the best of all time. Very good basketball IQ. Clutchness is just average. Very durable and versatile. Overrated defensively although he had a couple good years. Being able to guard several positions in spots is nice, but he's not an overall defender in the same vein as Pippen or Olajuwon in their prime or even Leonard or Green now. Kobe was probably a better overall defender and two-way player for his career. Jordan and Olajuwon were even better. LeBron is probably bitter that he'll never get a DPOY (as he shouldn't).
Even though his career numbers are better than Kobe, i don't have LeBron above him. FWIW, Russell Westbrook will probably finish with career numbers nearly as gaudy as LeBron, but from the one spot making it even more unbelievable, but who can honestly call him (Westbrook) the GOAT even if he wins a few rings by latching onto a superteam like LeBron did with Miami?
Outside of the PGs, i haven't seen such a diluted NBA at the other positions in the last 30+ years. You'd have to go all the way back to the NBA/ABA split. If LeBron played most of his career at the same time as the original Dream Team (the golden age of talent, pantheon level talent at every position), i don't think we would be having this discussion. That's why i don't give too much stock to Bill Russell and his 11 rings, since much of that time there were only 8 teams and the same two played most of the time in the finals (Boston and LA).
Whenever I picture LeBron trying to back down and bully a guy like Charles Oakley or Kermit Washington I move him out of the top 10, but he isn't #1. My top 5 in no particular order: MJ, Russell, Bird, Magic, Kobe. I have Russell there not because of his 9 rings, but because he won everywhere and made his mark playing defense and rebounding, not scoring. He was also an NBS champion as player/coach. Caveat: Part of me thinks Kareem belongs there and I never will understand why the guy is never mentioned as the sky hook remains the only shot ever in the NBA that could not be blocked.
Living in the area LeBron is from, I've seen him since his career began with the Cavs.
Anointing someone as the GOAT is subjective and too many factors come into play.
There is no doubt that he's among the best ever and I will leave it at that.
I find it hard to compare players from different eras as the game and strategies are constantly evolving at this point I would say that LeBron James is the best player in the game today
BTW I haven’t heard about som love for Dr J (Julius Erving) he singlehandedly forced the merger between the NBA And the ABA or what about Willis Reed the Center For the NY Knicks he was like a tree planted in front of the basket defensively and he and Earl Monroeand Walt Frazier along with Dave Debusshere brought several championships to NYC.
We could list all the greats and argue about GOAT, top5, top 10 all day. Its all subjective. Thats the beauty. What about barkley, david robinson, oscar robertson(MR. TRIPLE DOUBLE!), hakeem olajuwon, jerry west(the nba logo)...
It’s far too soon to throw GOAT around for LeBron. In my view - a player must be retired for several years before the assessment can be made. As this requires an evaluation of a career body of work.
I think MJ is still the GOAT - and there is a large gap beneath him -
@chessmaster
Yeah, Olajuwon is definitely underrated. Number one all time in "recorded" blocks (Wilt and Kareem are probably higher, but they played against worst centers), number 8 in steals, number 11 in scoring and 13 in rebounds. No one else (not even LeBron) is or will be top 15 in 4 categories and only until last year was top 10 in 3 categories. Was 2x DPOY as well as MVP (should have won in 95 as well) in a much deeper league at the top (Jordan, Magic, Bird, Malone, Barkley, Robinson) in his prime. Think he belongs on any top 10 list of all time, as he won a title basically by himself in 94, no other stars on that team and he outplayed a near-prime Shaq in the Finals the following year, despite being over 32. One of four players to ever record a quadruple double.
Jerry West was also a special player. The original Mr. Clutch. The only player to ever win Finals MVP on a losing team.
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IMHO MJ is still the GOAT, but James, Chamberlain, and Duncan belong in the discussion.
Excellent passer and playmaker, i'll give him that, one of the best of all time. Very good basketball IQ. Clutchness is just average. Very durable and versatile. Overrated defensively although he had a couple good years. Being able to guard several positions in spots is nice, but he's not an overall defender in the same vein as Pippen or Olajuwon in their prime or even Leonard or Green now. Kobe was probably a better overall defender and two-way player for his career. Jordan and Olajuwon were even better. LeBron is probably bitter that he'll never get a DPOY (as he shouldn't).
Even though his career numbers are better than Kobe, i don't have LeBron above him. FWIW, Russell Westbrook will probably finish with career numbers nearly as gaudy as LeBron, but from the one spot making it even more unbelievable, but who can honestly call him (Westbrook) the GOAT even if he wins a few rings by latching onto a superteam like LeBron did with Miami?
Outside of the PGs, i haven't seen such a diluted NBA at the other positions in the last 30+ years. You'd have to go all the way back to the NBA/ABA split. If LeBron played most of his career at the same time as the original Dream Team (the golden age of talent, pantheon level talent at every position), i don't think we would be having this discussion. That's why i don't give too much stock to Bill Russell and his 11 rings, since much of that time there were only 8 teams and the same two played most of the time in the finals (Boston and LA).
2. Kobe
NPO
3. Magic
4. Bird
5. Wilt
6. Russell
7. Kareem
(End npo)
8. Lebron
Anointing someone as the GOAT is subjective and too many factors come into play.
There is no doubt that he's among the best ever and I will leave it at that.
BTW I haven’t heard about som love for Dr J (Julius Erving) he singlehandedly forced the merger between the NBA And the ABA or what about Willis Reed the Center For the NY Knicks he was like a tree planted in front of the basket defensively and he and Earl Monroeand Walt Frazier along with Dave Debusshere brought several championships to NYC.
LeBron is the GOAT.
It's a fact.
It’s far too soon to throw GOAT around for LeBron. In my view - a player must be retired for several years before the assessment can be made. As this requires an evaluation of a career body of work.
I think MJ is still the GOAT - and there is a large gap beneath him -
Yeah, Olajuwon is definitely underrated. Number one all time in "recorded" blocks (Wilt and Kareem are probably higher, but they played against worst centers), number 8 in steals, number 11 in scoring and 13 in rebounds. No one else (not even LeBron) is or will be top 15 in 4 categories and only until last year was top 10 in 3 categories. Was 2x DPOY as well as MVP (should have won in 95 as well) in a much deeper league at the top (Jordan, Magic, Bird, Malone, Barkley, Robinson) in his prime. Think he belongs on any top 10 list of all time, as he won a title basically by himself in 94, no other stars on that team and he outplayed a near-prime Shaq in the Finals the following year, despite being over 32. One of four players to ever record a quadruple double.
Jerry West was also a special player. The original Mr. Clutch. The only player to ever win Finals MVP on a losing team.