What would you do if you walked into your favorite strip club and saw your little sister dancing on stage. Reason i'm asking is this happened to a friend of mine a few years ago. And be serious with your answers
My little sister is 46, she's old enough to live her life without my meddling.
If she was in her early 20s I would have a talk with her to find out why she decided to start dancing and let her know what I know through my experience. I'd want to make sure she was making an informed decision and know that I would be there for her without judging.
At least I hope that's what I would do.
I do know that I would NOT take her back for a VIP session for certain. She's not my type.
I would try not to let her see me until she was done on stage. Then I'd sit back and try to catch up with her and at least talk about when and why she started stripping. After that I'd leave and go to another club. Hopefully, she isn't dancing at my favorite club or that would become awkward seeing her dance for PLs.
As for the question ... I THINK this is my attitude, but I have no siblings so I don't know.
First, I would definitely sneak out! Don't want to blunder like that! But soon, curiosity would get me. I'd want to know what name she danced under so I could read the reviews and "make sure" she wasn't getting into trouble. If people were saying "she has a meth problem" or something like that, then I'd be taking action. And yet, all the lines here, by other guys, about how she ought to be allowed to live her own life, so long as she is old enough to make her own decisions (20 y.o.? 18? 25? 16?), do ring true with me. I don't think I would necessarily work entirely on that understanding, but I do intellectually GRASP it. I just wonder what would actually HAPPEN with my behavior and choices, if this situation arose. Would I be as sanguine as to say, "Oh, whatever, it's her life, ruin it or improve it, doesn't matter. Now I know I can borrow money from her without having to try to pay it back, she's got plenty." LOL. Or would I WANT to think that way, but then run something in my head like, "Oh yeah, but NOT MY SISTER DANGIT! No you DON'T fucking TOUCH HER YOU ... you whale you ... my sister has a whale? she's someone's ATF? ... "
With the overall context that, based on my experience with strip clubs and strippers, over decades: while women can go into stripping and come back out undamaged, wonderful people, more often than not there's a bad situation going in (poor life choices, psychological damage, etc.), there's a downward slide while she strips (pressure to take drugs and party, poor treatment by coworkers and customers, very low-quality social circle, etc.), and finally even more damage when she finally gets out.
Given all that, "she's an adult, she's old enough to do what she wants" rings hollow to me. I don't look at this any differently than if she was doing anything else that could tragically effect her life. If I caught her taking meth, or compulsively stealing things, or playing Russian roulette, or dating an abusive boyfriend, or driving slow in the left lane, or any other number of things on the spectrum from "mild" to "borderline self-destructive", what kind of brother would I be not to say anything? Why even have a family, if not to care that each other are happy?
I'd leave the club immediately. Some other day, I'd have a no-judgement conversation with her to see where she is, mentally and emotionally. Maybe she's desperate and badly needs help, in which case I help her however she needs (financially, place to crash, familial warmth & love, whatever) so she can get out. Maybe she's mis-informed about how destructive this lifestyle is, so I tell her and she can make a more informed decision. Maybe her eyes are totally open and what she can really use is non-judgmental support from her brother, in which case, that's what she'll get, and she has someone to turn to when she needs to talk, vent, things get particularly tough ... rather than hold it all in or party 'til she's numb.
She may be an adult, but she's family, not a random stranger, and there are pressures on sex workers even beyond the sex work
I'm happy to not have to worry about this. My little sister tips the scales at near 300 pounds. If she could get someone to pay her for a dance I'd stand up and cheer.
When I was in high school my sister was in a grade below me and ran with a bad crowd. She would not listen to any advice from me. So I stopped giving it. She eventually came to her senses.
All kidding aside, I would congratulate her on her wise career choice, ask her who she recommends for a BBBJ, and give her as much advice as she wants. Seriously. I mean, what kind of a hypocrite would I be to tell her to stop dancing? After all, 1) I'm a PL, 2) I would probably be a dancer if I were a chick, 3) I wouldn't be just any dancer, I'd be an extras dancer with GPS, and 4) I'm not paying her bills.
Shadowcat and I have (had in his case) the same type of sister and the same reaction..... except mine never came to her senses- she has spent decades making her life harder than it needed to be and has reached an expertise level rarely seen outside the SC universe.
But If I walked into a club and my sister was on stage I'd LMAO, she is a old wrinkled up leather face.
Walk out. At a later time have a "no judgement" discussion with her and try to find out why she is dancing and if there was anything I could do to change the situation.
All that stated, once she is on the stage, the "stripper" ship has probably already sailed. There is probably little that can be done to change her path. I would accept her decisions and be on the side lines in case she ever needed my advice or support.
Sister is too old for many on here. Should replace with niece or other relative. I'd probably react the same after I got over the initial surprise. There are a lot of good looking females among my relatives. I haven't seen too many females post bikini pics on facebook unless they look good and I've seen several. I like it when some of my nieces post bikini pics with their hot friends.
:)
A few of you guys are just straight up hypocrites. Don't get me wrong, I don't blame any of you for being hypocritical: SJG could probably lecture us about how your middle class values make you a bad person and all that other shit LOL. A few others here are more open-minded and reasonable, which is great. Extra credit goes to KirkDogg, PoolyD (LOL), 3LeggedMan, joc13, and especially Rick999 for presumably telling us all how they *really* feel and being willing to sidestep the usual "I'd have an honest heart-to-heart talk with her" bullshit.
For those of you who would try to rescue your sister from "the life," please consider for a moment what you're really saying. You're saying that strip clubs are awful, strippers always turn out to have ruined lives, and that you care about your sister but you DON'T care at all about all the dancers who aren't related to you. Because otherwise you would be playing Captain Save a Ho with your ATF, too. If you were consistent, I mean. Think about it.
What is hypocritical about having more concern for a family member than a favorite stripper?
The fav would never be in our lives if they weren't strippers to begin with, and they would most likely be out of our lives as soon as they stop being a sex worker.
Why would a customer want to sabotage that relationship? It's not like we're looking for g/fs.
"Where being Captain Save-A-Ho is bad, unless it's your relative."
If anything I had available to say that would keep a sister or a daughter out of a strip club (and my default position, even if asked ahead of time, would not necessarily be "don't do it") wasn't asked for BEFORE the decision to start working at a strip club, then my value as a father or brother has already been established by her. Anything I try to say AFTER finding out she works at a strip club (by virtue of me going in as a customer) would surely come across as judgemental and hypocritical.
I just can't reconcile enjoying being a SC customer if I was always thinking in the back of my mind "thank goodness you didn't have a brother or a father around to talk you out of this". If the life is too terrible for a relative, it ought to be too terrible for anyone, and we should just shut em all down.
Hard to explain, but it just feels like NIMBYism. Like it's perfectly ok to fuck some random whore, BBBJCIM, and all the rest... but no one had better lay a finger on my little sister! That's what it sounds like anyway. If every guy in the world followed that line of thinking and successfully intervened, we wouldn't have any strippers left at all.
Now I know no one here is advocating that all men should intervene to get their sisters off the stage. But it just feels grotesque to me because it reveals how poorly some of you really think of the girl who's blowing you. Don't get me wrong, I have mixed feelings about them, myself, mostly because half of them are conniving twats. But to me, the decision to dance naked, sell or rent your ass, and blow strangers for money is just another perfectly legitimate career choice. I don't look down on them for that. And if I DID look down on them, I would have to look down on myself, too. Because it takes two to tango.
^ Maybe I'm just rationalizing it, but I don't think I think poorly of dancers.
It's a complicated issue.
I'm not saying that I would stage an intervention or anything like it. I would just want to make sure she understood what the life entails before she gets sucked in too far and to let her know that she will always have a supporter.
My favs made the decision to enter the life before I ever knew them, in fact it's the only reason I do know them. As an outsider I subscribe to the MYOB concept and enjoy the spoils.
If you don't recognize the difference in a relationship between a family member and non-family member does that mean you would like to have sex with your daughter or sister just as you would with a stripper?
If my actions would make me a hypocrite, okay, I'm a hypocrite.
@BHF That begs the question were they conniving little twats before they became strippers or did they become that way because they are strippers. So there you see you are passing a moral judgement just like the rest of us, myself included. BTW I don’t have a sister but if I did I would consider it my familial responsibility to prevent her from pursuing that line of work.
@BHF One other question to consider, like it or not there are a different set of standards for men and women not saying they are right or wrong but it’s part of our culture just compare the threads here on TUSCL with the threads on SW, here most get of us get “extra’s” over on that other site none of the girls do anything except “ air dance”!!
I understand your position. But if by some magic you could go back in time and meet your favorite strippers and warn them in advance about the pitfalls of life on the pole, would you do it? As for the incest question... honestly, I've just never been sexually attracted to anyone I'm related to. But I don't consider it to be a moral question and if I were, then yes, I wouldn't mind, why not? Luckily, I'm not. So I wouldn't. If that makes any sense. Ask yourself this: who is the most attractive woman alive you can think of? Now imagine that you wake up tomorrow in a "parallel universe" and the woman in question is somehow your sister, daughter, etc. Would it matter to you?
Points well taken. It's an excellent question and I honestly don't know. But remember, I'm passing judgement on their bad attitudes, their manipulativeness, their lying, etc., NOT on the fact that they sell sex for a living. If my hypothetical relative were a lying manipulative cunt, then yes, I'd have a problem with that, regardless of how or why she became that way. But if she were an honest person who just so happens to sell her vagina for a living, then I wouldn't have a problem with that at all.
You're absolutely right that there's a different set of standards for men and women, and sometimes I even support the different standards. For example, I believe that all the female teachers who have been molesting teenage boys don't deserve to go to prison, they deserve a medal and a parade! I wouldn't feel the same way if the roles were reversed and male teachers were molesting female students. Not to get too far afield but I happen to believe that the age of consent should be lowered to 16 for girls in all 50 states and should be closer to 12 or 13 for boys. That's my opinion, anyway. Sorry for the tangent.
The difference is that I have known and cared for and loved my daughter/little sister since the day they were born. I'd probably feel the same way about my best friends' daughters as well.
I wouldn't have the same connection or feel the same commitment to someone I met later in life, after they had already matured. Not only that, but it is the slutty nature that makes my favs my favs, so why would I want to change that?
My approach would be similar to Subraman. I would leave quickly and then have a non-judgmental conversation with her later to see that she's okay and let her know that I have her back.
We're not in a position to be judgemental in any case. I'm not sure that PLs can claim the moral high ground.
> All the people here trying to prevent her from being a stripper are hypocrites. How can you justify going if you're gonna act like stripping is such a demeaning lifestyle choice?
I think about it the same way as if someone had a job cleaning using chemicals every day. There are health impacts associated with that and I wouldn't want to see a family member exposed to them. I would prefer that safer cleaning products be used, but I don't think it makes one a hypocrite to want to use a clean bathroom while not also being the cleaning product police for every bathroom one enters.
In order to answer the OP in the spirit the question was raised, let's expand the circle to include any female blood relative (niece, granddaughter, etc.).
First, I would question what kind of a disconnected shitty relative I am that I was unaware as to the chosen profession of my beloved relative.
Second, I would assess her choice as it related to suitability. Girl's gotta eat!!
If she possessed limited skills, I might not judge her chosen field so harshly. However, assuming she is of average or above-average intelligence, is mostly sober, reliable and well adjusted, I would have to question her choice -- as I would question a great many other under-achieving professions she might select -- as I would if she was dating a deadbeat BF.
Filtered through the lens of "be all you can be", I may or may not be supportive.
Knowing my female blood relatives, in each and every instance, if I am being honest with myself, I could not support the stripper career choice.
-->"I think about it the same way as if someone had a job cleaning using chemicals every day. There are health impacts associated with that and I wouldn't want to see a family member exposed to them. I would prefer that safer cleaning products be used, but I don't think it makes one a hypocrite to want to use a clean bathroom while not also being the cleaning product police for every bathroom one enters."
Yes, exactly. I think the equivalency of "don't want my sister to do something that's harmful to her" = "Hypocrisy" is a bit of an odd one. But if it IS hypocrisy, it's (at least to me) hypocrisy that's a virtue, not a vice. The thing is, though, B-Ho, I wonder if you're projecting a bit. Take stripping out of the equation and grabbing ppwh's example: If my sister was thinking about going into pest control, where her job took her into daily close contact with incredibly dangerous chemicals, I'd try to talk her out of that, too. That doesn't mean I look down on people who do it, or don't hire pest control specialists myself, or think there's anything wrong with it; but if "Not being a hypocrite" required me to, upon hiring each one, give them each a lecture on the dangers and try to get them to quit just like I would my sister, then you're living in fantasy land.
In short, normal human behavior is: be more protective of those close to you, with family being closest. There is no need to try to talk every adult in the world out of doing everything I'd try to talk my sister out of doing
I guess I look at it differently than I look at dangerous chemicals because stripping requires only common sense in order to be safe and prosperous. Dangerous chemicals require information and safety equipment. But other than that, you guys are right, it's a good analogy. And I wouldn't want to stop my relative from pursuing either career. It would just be extremely patronizing of me to say things like "don't forget to wear safety goggles and wash your hands after using the chemicals." I would assume she would already know. It would also be extremely patronizing of me to say "hey, don't forget, you can catch HIV from semen, so you should probably only swallow guys you know well." Again, I would assume she would already know.
I happen to have a younger sister, and to use an example, she smoked like a chimney from around the age of 12 to the age of 26. All my family always tried to get her to quit. But I always minded my own business (I was just a kid myself). Then around the time that she was 23 and I was 27, I began to intervene in these conversations and say things like "as long as she knows the risks, it's her choice." So this is slightly more than theoretical for me (but only slightly).
Smoking is something that's legitimately harmful. Stripping isn't. Stripping is more like driving a car: if you use common sense, it's a great thing. And if my sister lacks common sense, then A) she will end up harming herself at any job she chooses, even with her clothes on, and B) there's not much that I could do to "protect" her from herself unless I literally never left her side... which would be highly unusual in the VIP room, to say the least LOL.
-->"And I wouldn't want to stop my relative from pursuing either career. It would just be extremely patronizing of me to say things like "don't forget to wear safety goggles and wash your hands after using the chemicals.""
I don't disagree ... I think if that's the approach you'll take, it does come off patronizing. If you have trust and a bit of finesse in how you approach things, it won't. I've found it a very common thing, in both my work life and personal life, that two people can essentially give someone the same advice, but because one person has a more trusted relationship and phrases things well, and the other doesn't and the way they phrase things can come off as patronizing or insulting, the reaction is completely different.
> two people can essentially give someone the same advice, but because one person has a more trusted relationship and phrases things well, and the other doesn't and the way they phrase things can come off as patronizing or insulting, the reaction is completely different.
Yeah, that. You can say "I know it's really easy for things to go sideways with stripping. If you need a place to crash or someone to talk to, just give me a call"
> stripping requires only common sense in order to be safe and prosperous.
The decision to start in the first place can be a sign of something deeper going on. Or not. Some girls are naturally into it while others are doing it out of desperation. If she's naturally a free spirit, making a ton of cash and has a handle on her circumstances, that's one thing. That doesn't apply in all cases, though, and can easily change. If you already know she strips and she knows that you're willing to be there for her, that makes it a whole lot easier for her to call.
> "don't forget to wear safety goggles and wash your hands after using the chemicals.""
I was thinking more of the effects of inhaling the fumes. I have never seen cleaning crews wearing respirators.
You guys make some good points. But I would respond by saying:
A) If it does turn out that my sister is really in some kind of trouble and needs help, honestly, I don't want her to "crash" with me. And I definitely don't want to loan her any money (learned that one the hard way). Besides, I've offered help and advice to dozens of dancers through the years and they never take it. I don't think it would be any different if the dancer in question were my relative.
B) At the risk of sounding like SJG, I really want to live in a world where the decision to sell your ass is not necessarily a desperation move. Yes, I know that's not the world we currently live in. But we can only get there if people stop acting like sex work is something horrible. Attitudes need to change. So I'll be the first to change my attitude, I guess. And it starts at home.
I don't think "little sister" is all that important. The real question is "What would you do if you walked into your favorite club and saw [insert someone you care about] dancing on stage?" Every single person posting shit like "I would have a non-judgemental talk with her" is a politically correct liar and hypocrite because what you're saying is that strippers aren't really human beings to you. They're just biological sex toys. And guess what? Strippers can tell how you really feel about them. So for those of you wondering why a stripper might be "judgemental" or think that 75% of strip club patrons are creeps, well, that's why. Now I'll let everyone get back to answering "what do you bring to the table?" LMFAO
What would be even worse is reading reviews about a super freaky extras girl, going to the club to check her out and THEN finding out it was your sister!
I actually did some thinking about this thread during my drive in this am.
@BHF, anonlvone, SJG (I know he didn't post here but he belongs in this diatribe anyway) and any other of you "enlightened" PLs that would be perfectly fine and unaffected by seeing their sister or daughter stripping, I'm sure glad we aren't related. Either you don't have anyone you care about or you are just trying to impress everyone here with your progressive attitudes. Well I'm not impressed.
Poledancer wrote a thread about a typical cycle a dancer goes through. I think anyone that would be just fine with a loved one subjecting themselves to that possibility isn't showing that they care at all.
Do I care about my favs? Yes.
Do I feel the same level of responsibility or concern about them as I do about a family member? Hell no.
Here is another analogy...
I'm prior military. I have a ton of respect for what our military men and women sacrifice to serve us. I do not want my daughter to enlist, or become a police officer for that matter. I'd be too concerned for her safety. If she decides to do it there isn't a hell of a lot I can do except let her know how I feel and provide whatever insights and advice I can.
Stripping is a bit different, as my concern would be more for her mental rather than physical health, but the analogy still holds.
Selfishly, I'm glad and thankful we have strippers, but I don't want a loved one doing it. And I think any of you who would be fine with it are a bit fucked in the head (or heart). Yes, I'm being judgemental there. But I suspect you are either lying or not really thinking this through.
I’m a complete pig, and I’m driven by a desire for used pussy - so I’d give her some money - have her sit and chat with me - and find out which extras dancer has the loosest and sloppiest pussy in the club - and then I’d let my little sis get back to work.
However - if my little sis said that she was the filthiest and dirtiest extras girl in the club - after I choked down the vomit in my mouth - I’d ask who the second filthiest dancer was...
You are correct Flagooner. I don’t know how I would react if it actually happened to me. I can easily make snarky comments - but in reality - I’m not sure what I’d do. I know I wouldn’t sneak out. I’m not sure what I’d do - as I wouldn’t want her to get freaked out.
-->"Either you don't have anyone you care about or you are just trying to impress everyone here with your progressive attitudes. Well I'm not impressed.
Poledancer wrote a thread about a typical cycle a dancer goes through. I think anyone that would be just fine with a loved one subjecting themselves to that possibility isn't showing that they care at all.
Do I care about my favs? Yes.
Do I feel the same level of responsibility or concern about them as I do about a family member? Hell no."
Yes, exactly. The fact is, none of us here need to read poledancer's post, because every one of us knows how damaging it is to the girls (not always, but often) and how there's often already some dire circumstances for her even to make the decision to strip (not always, but often). There are a few people here who seem incapable of pretty simple and common human and familial reactions -- e.g., my relative is doing something that can be damaging, I can engage them about it without looking down on them or on everyone who does it. As you said, maybe they don't have anyone they care about, or they're posing.
I don't think I would call it moral high ground. The way I see it, I'm a disgusting pig and you guys are hypocrites. That's roughly even ground if you ask me LOL. But I'm not out there doing charity work. I would think more highly of my relative if she whored herself out than if she begged me for money/shelter. That's my view of the world. Earning a living is never wrong unless you're harming someone else, and I don't see how an honest stripper of hooker is harming anyone.
Not wanting a family member to dance naked is probably totally normal. But you're all tacitly admitting that bad things happen to sex workers, adversity drives women to sell themselves, you all patronize such women, etc. It's like you're basically saying "I'm thankful for bad luck, adversity, tragedy, substance abuse, and poor decision making, because if these things didn't exist then I'd never get laid at all!" And that's a fair perspective: after all adversity drives people to do all sorts of things that they might find to be unpleasant, but that the rest of us benefit from.
Anyway, I happen to think that selling your hooch is cool, regardless of who's selling it. I really do believe that the world would be a better place if more people would admit that commercial sex is a positive thing, and is often superior to dating and marriage. There's no way that I could hold these opinions myself and yet still want to discourage someone from selling herself, no matter who she is.
My main argument is that if even WE think poorly of sex work then there's just no hope for the broader culture ever changing. (By 'we' I mean mongers and PLs.)
And I would also note that no one has yet responded to my hypothetical incest question above.
@flagooner - So assuming you're not just trying to be an artful dodger (which I suspect you are) it seems you completely misunderstood my post. I didn't say I wouldn't care if my sister became a stripper, I said it's hypocritical to care only because she's your sister. There is absolutely no moral high ground to your position at all. There are few things in this world as common or as hypocritical as granting your relatives some special status just because they're your relatives. If you think that earns you some type of ethical merit badge, then you can take your place on the podium right next to the mom who refuses to believe that her son is a murderer or a rapist because she can't view him as anything other than an extension of herself. I have repeatedly posted about the fact that I have befriended dancers throughout my life, and my "secret" is that I simply treat them as people and not as objects. Generally I'm respectful, and treat them well, and because of that when girls retire I'm the exception that they will still dance for. Or if they won't dance for anyone anymore, I'm the exception that they'll still keep in touch with. One of my best friends right now is a former dancer. She stopped dancing almost a year ago, and of all the guys she met while dancing, I'm one of only two that she still keeps in touch with.
@BHF "It's like you're basically saying "I'm thankful for bad luck, adversity, tragedy, substance abuse, and poor decision making, because if these things didn't exist then I'd never get laid at all!" "
And then some of them beat up on RickDugan whenever he tells a story of scoring with a particular stripper for one or more of those reasons.
"My main argument is that if even WE think poorly of sex work then there's just no hope for the broader culture ever changing."
Amen!
"And I would also note that no one has yet responded to my hypothetical incest question above."
I had sex with a step-cousin once. I don't remember the specific question, but as freaky and open minded as I am, that's as close to incest as I have come. Luckily, there's plenty more freaky I haven't tried yet that doesn't involve incest so I can probably avoid thinking about it any more.
The hypothetical, I thought it was rhetorical. I have a couple of beautiful nieces in their early 20's. Both are 8s or 9s, big college cheerleaders. Honestly I've never thought of them in a sexual way.
Anonlvone. Yes, I may have misinterpreted your post. As for treating loved family over others, I'm guilty.
If I had to choose between saving my child or 100 kids I don't know, I'd save my child every time. And I'd be glad I did.
If it was one of the nieces I mentioned above, I'd save the 100 kids.
If it was one of my nieces or 2 kids, probably my nieces.
The point about treating your family differently than strangers is interesting, but it goes way beyond that. To put it simply, I do not believe that sex work is an inherently bad thing. Several people here agree with me. I believe that it's only a bad thing if we treat it as a bad thing. In other words, we have the power to decide how we're going to treat it. But some people here seem to think that it's a bad thing by definition. That's what the disagreement is all about.
This is a complicated argument; it makes me think of sweatshops. I happen to like sweatshops. I realize that this is a controversial position, but I believe they actually improve the lives of people in poor countries. Now, if my sister were going to quit her job, move to Cambodia, and work in a sweatshop, I would probably warn her that she won't make much money and will be working under poor conditions, relative to her current life in the States. I guess everything is relative in the sweatshop industry. On the other hand, working in the sex industry has to be an upgrade for most people even in America: flexible work schedule, tons of money, the ability to flip your boss off on Monday and get rehired on Tuesday, attention from lots of guys (some of whom are actually worth a damn), tax-free cash income, basically being your own boss, etc. Plus sex workers are providing a good product at a reasonable price (just like sweatshop workers), and they're even doing a public service by jerking off pedophiles and rapists to prevent them from hurting anyone else. So what's the harm? Everyone wins.
Literally the only downside to working in the sex industry is how other people will think of you. And we have the power to choose how we are going to think of it. Working in a sweatshop has lots of drawbacks. So does working in a corporate law firm or a hospital. But sex work only has one drawback, and that's people's perception of it. Why would I want to talk someone out of doing this for a living? Yes, some people have bad experiences with this business. So what? Some people have bad experiences working at car dealerships and stock brokerages, too. Should we talk our female relatives out of working for these businesses as well?
As for the incest question, I'll get the ball rolling. As I've said, thankfully, I don't have any particularly attractive women in my family (by my standards). But let's say I'm in a parallel universe and somehow, let's say, Christina Hendricks is my mother. (Of course it's not possible because she's only about 6 years older than I am, but just accept it for the sake of argument.) And for good measure, let's say that Katy Perry is my sister in this parallel world. And let's say they both make it clear that they want to fuck me. Hell yes I would do it. I really wouldn't even have to think about it twice. How about you guys?
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If she was in her early 20s I would have a talk with her to find out why she decided to start dancing and let her know what I know through my experience. I'd want to make sure she was making an informed decision and know that I would be there for her without judging.
At least I hope that's what I would do.
I do know that I would NOT take her back for a VIP session for certain. She's not my type.
Now that she knows I know something about SCs, if she asks for advice I will give it.
but after seeing how this industry and lifestyle has affected so many girls, I care for her too much than to just completely ignore it.
With that said I did know a DJ that got his sister to Dance
As for the question ... I THINK this is my attitude, but I have no siblings so I don't know.
First, I would definitely sneak out! Don't want to blunder like that! But soon, curiosity would get me. I'd want to know what name she danced under so I could read the reviews and "make sure" she wasn't getting into trouble. If people were saying "she has a meth problem" or something like that, then I'd be taking action. And yet, all the lines here, by other guys, about how she ought to be allowed to live her own life, so long as she is old enough to make her own decisions (20 y.o.? 18? 25? 16?), do ring true with me. I don't think I would necessarily work entirely on that understanding, but I do intellectually GRASP it. I just wonder what would actually HAPPEN with my behavior and choices, if this situation arose. Would I be as sanguine as to say, "Oh, whatever, it's her life, ruin it or improve it, doesn't matter. Now I know I can borrow money from her without having to try to pay it back, she's got plenty." LOL. Or would I WANT to think that way, but then run something in my head like, "Oh yeah, but NOT MY SISTER DANGIT! No you DON'T fucking TOUCH HER YOU ... you whale you ... my sister has a whale? she's someone's ATF? ... "
Given all that, "she's an adult, she's old enough to do what she wants" rings hollow to me. I don't look at this any differently than if she was doing anything else that could tragically effect her life. If I caught her taking meth, or compulsively stealing things, or playing Russian roulette, or dating an abusive boyfriend, or driving slow in the left lane, or any other number of things on the spectrum from "mild" to "borderline self-destructive", what kind of brother would I be not to say anything? Why even have a family, if not to care that each other are happy?
I'd leave the club immediately. Some other day, I'd have a no-judgement conversation with her to see where she is, mentally and emotionally. Maybe she's desperate and badly needs help, in which case I help her however she needs (financially, place to crash, familial warmth & love, whatever) so she can get out. Maybe she's mis-informed about how destructive this lifestyle is, so I tell her and she can make a more informed decision. Maybe her eyes are totally open and what she can really use is non-judgmental support from her brother, in which case, that's what she'll get, and she has someone to turn to when she needs to talk, vent, things get particularly tough ... rather than hold it all in or party 'til she's numb.
She may be an adult, but she's family, not a random stranger, and there are pressures on sex workers even beyond the sex work
Whaht did your "friend" do?
But If I walked into a club and my sister was on stage I'd LMAO, she is a old wrinkled up leather face.
All that stated, once she is on the stage, the "stripper" ship has probably already sailed. There is probably little that can be done to change her path. I would accept her decisions and be on the side lines in case she ever needed my advice or support.
:)
For those of you who would try to rescue your sister from "the life," please consider for a moment what you're really saying. You're saying that strip clubs are awful, strippers always turn out to have ruined lives, and that you care about your sister but you DON'T care at all about all the dancers who aren't related to you. Because otherwise you would be playing Captain Save a Ho with your ATF, too. If you were consistent, I mean. Think about it.
What is hypocritical about having more concern for a family member than a favorite stripper?
The fav would never be in our lives if they weren't strippers to begin with, and they would most likely be out of our lives as soon as they stop being a sex worker.
Why would a customer want to sabotage that relationship? It's not like we're looking for g/fs.
"Where being Captain Save-A-Ho is bad, unless it's your relative."
If anything I had available to say that would keep a sister or a daughter out of a strip club (and my default position, even if asked ahead of time, would not necessarily be "don't do it") wasn't asked for BEFORE the decision to start working at a strip club, then my value as a father or brother has already been established by her. Anything I try to say AFTER finding out she works at a strip club (by virtue of me going in as a customer) would surely come across as judgemental and hypocritical.
I just can't reconcile enjoying being a SC customer if I was always thinking in the back of my mind "thank goodness you didn't have a brother or a father around to talk you out of this". If the life is too terrible for a relative, it ought to be too terrible for anyone, and we should just shut em all down.
Hard to explain, but it just feels like NIMBYism. Like it's perfectly ok to fuck some random whore, BBBJCIM, and all the rest... but no one had better lay a finger on my little sister! That's what it sounds like anyway. If every guy in the world followed that line of thinking and successfully intervened, we wouldn't have any strippers left at all.
Now I know no one here is advocating that all men should intervene to get their sisters off the stage. But it just feels grotesque to me because it reveals how poorly some of you really think of the girl who's blowing you. Don't get me wrong, I have mixed feelings about them, myself, mostly because half of them are conniving twats. But to me, the decision to dance naked, sell or rent your ass, and blow strangers for money is just another perfectly legitimate career choice. I don't look down on them for that. And if I DID look down on them, I would have to look down on myself, too. Because it takes two to tango.
It's a complicated issue.
I'm not saying that I would stage an intervention or anything like it. I would just want to make sure she understood what the life entails before she gets sucked in too far and to let her know that she will always have a supporter.
My favs made the decision to enter the life before I ever knew them, in fact it's the only reason I do know them. As an outsider I subscribe to the MYOB concept and enjoy the spoils.
If you don't recognize the difference in a relationship between a family member and non-family member does that mean you would like to have sex with your daughter or sister just as you would with a stripper?
If my actions would make me a hypocrite, okay, I'm a hypocrite.
I completely understand that position. I do think it takes finesse though or it could seriously harm the relationship and drive her to rebellion.
I understand your position. But if by some magic you could go back in time and meet your favorite strippers and warn them in advance about the pitfalls of life on the pole, would you do it? As for the incest question... honestly, I've just never been sexually attracted to anyone I'm related to. But I don't consider it to be a moral question and if I were, then yes, I wouldn't mind, why not? Luckily, I'm not. So I wouldn't. If that makes any sense. Ask yourself this: who is the most attractive woman alive you can think of? Now imagine that you wake up tomorrow in a "parallel universe" and the woman in question is somehow your sister, daughter, etc. Would it matter to you?
Points well taken. It's an excellent question and I honestly don't know. But remember, I'm passing judgement on their bad attitudes, their manipulativeness, their lying, etc., NOT on the fact that they sell sex for a living. If my hypothetical relative were a lying manipulative cunt, then yes, I'd have a problem with that, regardless of how or why she became that way. But if she were an honest person who just so happens to sell her vagina for a living, then I wouldn't have a problem with that at all.
You're absolutely right that there's a different set of standards for men and women, and sometimes I even support the different standards. For example, I believe that all the female teachers who have been molesting teenage boys don't deserve to go to prison, they deserve a medal and a parade! I wouldn't feel the same way if the roles were reversed and male teachers were molesting female students. Not to get too far afield but I happen to believe that the age of consent should be lowered to 16 for girls in all 50 states and should be closer to 12 or 13 for boys. That's my opinion, anyway. Sorry for the tangent.
The difference is that I have known and cared for and loved my daughter/little sister since the day they were born. I'd probably feel the same way about my best friends' daughters as well.
I wouldn't have the same connection or feel the same commitment to someone I met later in life, after they had already matured. Not only that, but it is the slutty nature that makes my favs my favs, so why would I want to change that?
Why am I responding to these hypotheticals?
Well trolled. You got me.
Well... the whole thread is a hypothetical, right? And everything on this site is a work of fiction anyway, so...
We're not in a position to be judgemental in any case. I'm not sure that PLs can claim the moral high ground.
I think about it the same way as if someone had a job cleaning using chemicals every day. There are health impacts associated with that and I wouldn't want to see a family member exposed to them. I would prefer that safer cleaning products be used, but I don't think it makes one a hypocrite to want to use a clean bathroom while not also being the cleaning product police for every bathroom one enters.
I thought it was called the American Dream.
First, I would question what kind of a disconnected shitty relative I am that I was unaware as to the chosen profession of my beloved relative.
Second, I would assess her choice as it related to suitability. Girl's gotta eat!!
If she possessed limited skills, I might not judge her chosen field so harshly. However, assuming she is of average or above-average intelligence, is mostly sober, reliable and well adjusted, I would have to question her choice -- as I would question a great many other under-achieving professions she might select -- as I would if she was dating a deadbeat BF.
Filtered through the lens of "be all you can be", I may or may not be supportive.
Knowing my female blood relatives, in each and every instance, if I am being honest with myself, I could not support the stripper career choice.
Yes, exactly. I think the equivalency of "don't want my sister to do something that's harmful to her" = "Hypocrisy" is a bit of an odd one. But if it IS hypocrisy, it's (at least to me) hypocrisy that's a virtue, not a vice. The thing is, though, B-Ho, I wonder if you're projecting a bit. Take stripping out of the equation and grabbing ppwh's example: If my sister was thinking about going into pest control, where her job took her into daily close contact with incredibly dangerous chemicals, I'd try to talk her out of that, too. That doesn't mean I look down on people who do it, or don't hire pest control specialists myself, or think there's anything wrong with it; but if "Not being a hypocrite" required me to, upon hiring each one, give them each a lecture on the dangers and try to get them to quit just like I would my sister, then you're living in fantasy land.
In short, normal human behavior is: be more protective of those close to you, with family being closest. There is no need to try to talk every adult in the world out of doing everything I'd try to talk my sister out of doing
I happen to have a younger sister, and to use an example, she smoked like a chimney from around the age of 12 to the age of 26. All my family always tried to get her to quit. But I always minded my own business (I was just a kid myself). Then around the time that she was 23 and I was 27, I began to intervene in these conversations and say things like "as long as she knows the risks, it's her choice." So this is slightly more than theoretical for me (but only slightly).
Smoking is something that's legitimately harmful. Stripping isn't. Stripping is more like driving a car: if you use common sense, it's a great thing. And if my sister lacks common sense, then A) she will end up harming herself at any job she chooses, even with her clothes on, and B) there's not much that I could do to "protect" her from herself unless I literally never left her side... which would be highly unusual in the VIP room, to say the least LOL.
I don't disagree ... I think if that's the approach you'll take, it does come off patronizing. If you have trust and a bit of finesse in how you approach things, it won't. I've found it a very common thing, in both my work life and personal life, that two people can essentially give someone the same advice, but because one person has a more trusted relationship and phrases things well, and the other doesn't and the way they phrase things can come off as patronizing or insulting, the reaction is completely different.
Yeah, that. You can say "I know it's really easy for things to go sideways with stripping. If you need a place to crash or someone to talk to, just give me a call"
> stripping requires only common sense in order to be safe and prosperous.
The decision to start in the first place can be a sign of something deeper going on. Or not. Some girls are naturally into it while others are doing it out of desperation. If she's naturally a free spirit, making a ton of cash and has a handle on her circumstances, that's one thing. That doesn't apply in all cases, though, and can easily change. If you already know she strips and she knows that you're willing to be there for her, that makes it a whole lot easier for her to call.
> "don't forget to wear safety goggles and wash your hands after using the chemicals.""
I was thinking more of the effects of inhaling the fumes. I have never seen cleaning crews wearing respirators.
A) If it does turn out that my sister is really in some kind of trouble and needs help, honestly, I don't want her to "crash" with me. And I definitely don't want to loan her any money (learned that one the hard way). Besides, I've offered help and advice to dozens of dancers through the years and they never take it. I don't think it would be any different if the dancer in question were my relative.
B) At the risk of sounding like SJG, I really want to live in a world where the decision to sell your ass is not necessarily a desperation move. Yes, I know that's not the world we currently live in. But we can only get there if people stop acting like sex work is something horrible. Attitudes need to change. So I'll be the first to change my attitude, I guess. And it starts at home.
@BHF, anonlvone, SJG (I know he didn't post here but he belongs in this diatribe anyway) and any other of you "enlightened" PLs that would be perfectly fine and unaffected by seeing their sister or daughter stripping, I'm sure glad we aren't related. Either you don't have anyone you care about or you are just trying to impress everyone here with your progressive attitudes. Well I'm not impressed.
Poledancer wrote a thread about a typical cycle a dancer goes through. I think anyone that would be just fine with a loved one subjecting themselves to that possibility isn't showing that they care at all.
Do I care about my favs? Yes.
Do I feel the same level of responsibility or concern about them as I do about a family member? Hell no.
Here is another analogy...
I'm prior military. I have a ton of respect for what our military men and women sacrifice to serve us. I do not want my daughter to enlist, or become a police officer for that matter. I'd be too concerned for her safety. If she decides to do it there isn't a hell of a lot I can do except let her know how I feel and provide whatever insights and advice I can.
Stripping is a bit different, as my concern would be more for her mental rather than physical health, but the analogy still holds.
Selfishly, I'm glad and thankful we have strippers, but I don't want a loved one doing it. And I think any of you who would be fine with it are a bit fucked in the head (or heart). Yes, I'm being judgemental there. But I suspect you are either lying or not really thinking this through.
However - if my little sis said that she was the filthiest and dirtiest extras girl in the club - after I choked down the vomit in my mouth - I’d ask who the second filthiest dancer was...
We already live in that world. Only problem is that it's not always the case.
> If it does turn out that my sister is really in some kind of trouble and needs help, honestly, I don't want her to "crash" with me.
In that case, you really don't have any business claiming any moral high ground.
Poledancer wrote a thread about a typical cycle a dancer goes through. I think anyone that would be just fine with a loved one subjecting themselves to that possibility isn't showing that they care at all.
Do I care about my favs? Yes.
Do I feel the same level of responsibility or concern about them as I do about a family member? Hell no."
Yes, exactly. The fact is, none of us here need to read poledancer's post, because every one of us knows how damaging it is to the girls (not always, but often) and how there's often already some dire circumstances for her even to make the decision to strip (not always, but often). There are a few people here who seem incapable of pretty simple and common human and familial reactions -- e.g., my relative is doing something that can be damaging, I can engage them about it without looking down on them or on everyone who does it. As you said, maybe they don't have anyone they care about, or they're posing.
Not wanting a family member to dance naked is probably totally normal. But you're all tacitly admitting that bad things happen to sex workers, adversity drives women to sell themselves, you all patronize such women, etc. It's like you're basically saying "I'm thankful for bad luck, adversity, tragedy, substance abuse, and poor decision making, because if these things didn't exist then I'd never get laid at all!" And that's a fair perspective: after all adversity drives people to do all sorts of things that they might find to be unpleasant, but that the rest of us benefit from.
Anyway, I happen to think that selling your hooch is cool, regardless of who's selling it. I really do believe that the world would be a better place if more people would admit that commercial sex is a positive thing, and is often superior to dating and marriage. There's no way that I could hold these opinions myself and yet still want to discourage someone from selling herself, no matter who she is.
My main argument is that if even WE think poorly of sex work then there's just no hope for the broader culture ever changing. (By 'we' I mean mongers and PLs.)
And I would also note that no one has yet responded to my hypothetical incest question above.
And then some of them beat up on RickDugan whenever he tells a story of scoring with a particular stripper for one or more of those reasons.
"My main argument is that if even WE think poorly of sex work then there's just no hope for the broader culture ever changing."
Amen!
"And I would also note that no one has yet responded to my hypothetical incest question above."
I had sex with a step-cousin once. I don't remember the specific question, but as freaky and open minded as I am, that's as close to incest as I have come. Luckily, there's plenty more freaky I haven't tried yet that doesn't involve incest so I can probably avoid thinking about it any more.
Anonlvone. Yes, I may have misinterpreted your post. As for treating loved family over others, I'm guilty.
If I had to choose between saving my child or 100 kids I don't know, I'd save my child every time. And I'd be glad I did.
If it was one of the nieces I mentioned above, I'd save the 100 kids.
If it was one of my nieces or 2 kids, probably my nieces.
This is a complicated argument; it makes me think of sweatshops. I happen to like sweatshops. I realize that this is a controversial position, but I believe they actually improve the lives of people in poor countries. Now, if my sister were going to quit her job, move to Cambodia, and work in a sweatshop, I would probably warn her that she won't make much money and will be working under poor conditions, relative to her current life in the States. I guess everything is relative in the sweatshop industry. On the other hand, working in the sex industry has to be an upgrade for most people even in America: flexible work schedule, tons of money, the ability to flip your boss off on Monday and get rehired on Tuesday, attention from lots of guys (some of whom are actually worth a damn), tax-free cash income, basically being your own boss, etc. Plus sex workers are providing a good product at a reasonable price (just like sweatshop workers), and they're even doing a public service by jerking off pedophiles and rapists to prevent them from hurting anyone else. So what's the harm? Everyone wins.
Literally the only downside to working in the sex industry is how other people will think of you. And we have the power to choose how we are going to think of it. Working in a sweatshop has lots of drawbacks. So does working in a corporate law firm or a hospital. But sex work only has one drawback, and that's people's perception of it. Why would I want to talk someone out of doing this for a living? Yes, some people have bad experiences with this business. So what? Some people have bad experiences working at car dealerships and stock brokerages, too. Should we talk our female relatives out of working for these businesses as well?
As for the incest question, I'll get the ball rolling. As I've said, thankfully, I don't have any particularly attractive women in my family (by my standards). But let's say I'm in a parallel universe and somehow, let's say, Christina Hendricks is my mother. (Of course it's not possible because she's only about 6 years older than I am, but just accept it for the sake of argument.) And for good measure, let's say that Katy Perry is my sister in this parallel world. And let's say they both make it clear that they want to fuck me. Hell yes I would do it. I really wouldn't even have to think about it twice. How about you guys?