Old school

I also agree with a point that Chandler made a long time ago, that we often view the past through rose-colored glasses. We remember the good times but not the bad (unless they were REALLY bad.) I know I'm sometimes guilty of that.

My own personal problem is that I so enjoyed spending time with ATF (still do but she quit dancing 8 years ago) that every club visit since then has been disappointing. Combine that with how expensive the hobby has become and it just isn't worth it to me anymore. I'm sure I'll drop by a club again one of these days when it's convenient to do so, but I won't spend very much and I'll probably be disappointed. It's true - you can't go home again, it isn't there anymore.

AN, I agree with the point that Chandler made early in this thread, that the big change has been lap dancing. LDs have become the major focus of most clubs, probably because that's where the money is. But in the process things like dancer attractiveness, friendliness and dancing ability have all declined. Frankly I'm not surprised that dancer attitudes have declined, it's a lot harder to be a dancer today.

Maybe DC has the right idea, the clubs there are still what they used to be like elsewhere before LDs took over. Sit, drink, watch and talk, but don't touch. (I once saw a customer get throuwn out of a DC club because he brushed the leg of a dancer on stage with the end of a dollar bill that he was waiting to give her.)

Just thought I'd resurect this one since I'd meant to comment but never did. I understand the point Doug and Chandler make about the novelty wearing off. My point is that this visit and another since then with the same dancer were the best I've had in a long time at any club. The only difference between visits was the girl, and I've known her for a number of years. I wasn't experiencing some new novel thing, I was at my usual club with a girl I'd known but not seen for a while. I'd been at the club plenty recently. The difference was the girl actually tried to make sure I had a good time, and was good at it. I just don't see that anymore, even when I make an effort to cultivate a new regular dancer. The new girls don't seem to appreciate that it is a two way street.

Clubber, I should have added that in states that don't license massage therapists it's fairly common for some of them to work out of their homes. I used to see a girl regularly who had a massage studio set up in one of her bedrooms. That's much harder to do if the state has licensing requirements because they usually license both the therapist and the establishment, and a bedroom in a home can't usually meet the qualifications (or the zoning.)

Chandler, that's exactly why I haven't gotten around to visiting a club in over a year, it just doesn't seem to be exciting anymore, the novelty has worn off. Which is why I switched to massage. That and to save money. And I've found I actually enjoy it more.

Clubber, in a lot of beauty parlors, gyms etc. that offer massage as a sideline, the massage therapist is an independent who rents the space and runs her own business. A lot of these girls will also make house calls if you don't mind paying a small additional travel fee. My ATF rents a small room in a beauty parlor and also does house calls. You can also find therapists in the Yellow Pages or on the Internet. My Yellow Pages has two categories for massage - therapeutic and relaxation, the latter are all escort services.

Just don't ever ask a licensed massage therapist if she does anything extra - the vast majority don't (they can lose their license) and will be highly offended. If they want to offer something extra, which is very unlikely, they'll let you know without you asking.

I agree completely, Doug. That goes along with my point about it not being new and exciting anymore. I know for a fact that mileage has gone up since I started clubbing. Stuff I used to excitedly fly down to Tampa to get is available practically anywhere now. It just doesn't thrill me like it used to. After my first couple of years clubbing, I'd experienced everything a guy could ever wish for mileage-wise. Since then, I've been more into variety and enjoying the teasing..... and, sure, the occasional pleasing.

FONDL,

Thanks. I was speaking of legitimate massage, but I didn't know there were those that had their own studios or come to your home. I'm not saying a nude, "happy" one wouldn't be enjoyed, but the other sounds very nice as well.

Another slightly different perspective...

I also do not find clubs as much fun as I used to. I don't feel the mileage is any less ('cept for clubs like in SB, where the ordinances have clamped down on the fun). I don't feel the girls are any less attractive, or less talented. Actually, I don't feel anything has really changed.

What I think has taken place is a mental change. It's kind of like doing drugs. You start with the light stuff and pretty soon that just doesn't give you the thrill any more, so then you find something a little stronger and that's great for a while, until that no longer does the trick, so you search out the next drug of choice...

When I first started clubbing, it was exciting just to walk in the door of a club and see hot girls. Pretty soon, that got old, and I got braver and started rail tipping. At some point, that no longer tickled my fancy, so I began getting dances.... then extras... At some point, even that didn't seem enough, so I sampled escorts, which quickly left me wanting more. The next progression was OTCing.

So, I don't think the clubs are going downhill, so much as we are setting our expectations higher. This being driven by the ever growing need for newer and hotter experiences just please us.

Clubber, by "parlor" I assume you mean massage parlor. I don't go to massage parlors, I've prefer seeing independent massage therapists who either have their own studio or come to your home. But I'm talking about a trained and licensed massage therapist, not a girl who gives an erotic massage.

FYI, the term "massage" is used in two different contexts: (1) legitimate massage, which is bodywork performed by licensed massage therapists who go to school and then get jobs at beauty parlors, health spas, gyms, chiropractors' offices, or work independently; and (2) erotic massage, sometimes called "bodyrub," done by girls who have no formal training and often perform in the nude and give happy endings. These are pretty distinct differences but there can be some grey area between them depending on where you are. For example, there are some modalities (types of massage) that are sometimes performed in the nude, especially on the West Coast. And some licensed therapists do give erotic massages to make more money, although it's not all that common. Only about half the states license massage therapists, so things can be a bit looser in states that don't have licensing. Do some research on the Internet and you should be able to find what you want.

Personally I prefer legitimate massage, I want a massage by someone who has been trained plus it's a whole lot cheaper than erotic massage. But even within the legitimate category there can be significant differences from one therapist to another - it's all about finding one you like, much like trying to find a stripper you like.

FONDL,

I DO mean one I don't risk arrest.

FONDL,

I, too, consider myself "old school", and visit clubs much less than in the past. My question to you, how does one locate a parlor to visit? And I don't mean one that I risk arrest.

AN: Your view can also become colored as you simply grow tired of the same experience. The quality at a club could remain constant, but you might perceive it as going downhill because it's not new and exciting to you anymore. Again, I'm not saying that explains all or most of your particular experience. But I think it's a common syndrome that I know I have been prey to. I've been able to counter it by going to a lot of different types of clubs, an option you may not have.

AN: The talent pool is certainly diluted, there's twice as many stripclubs in latest ED Directory vs early 90's, thus more dancers to go around. Like Chandler, I don't care that much about dancing talent, I go primarily for the laps. That said, I'm not totally insensitive to the various nuances of SC, and other life experiences. I can derive just as much enjoyment from a low contact dance delivered with feeling and talent vs. a high contact, but mechanical "just going through the motions" style.

While seeing the past as a better time is pretty much part of the human condition there are three factors at work here that convince me that this is not entirely a case of rose colored glasses.

1. In the past I used to go to clubs a lot more. I slowed down because I wasn't enjoying it as much

2. I enjoy my visits much less now than I used to mostly because I can't seem to find a good regular dancer, not through lack of trying.

3. My former and now present ATF was up against many of the regular girls I've seen in my more recent visits, there was no comparrison. Her dancing, looks, personality, and ability to connect with the customers blew the other girls away. She used to be only slightly above average in my estimation, only one of several favorites I had at that time, though in fairness she'd make the top 10 easy...possibly the top 5.

The other mitigating factor is that I raised the topic, she didn't. I know this can be a case of a stripper telling you what you want to hear, but we'd been friendly enough as regulars she wouldn't feel the need to do so. The reason the topic was on my mind was something I saw on a recent visit that I recounted in another thread, which I don't feel like looking for now. The gist was that I saw a veteran dancer who used to be a favorite work for the first time in a long time. She took the time and knew how to entertain a group of guys that all the other girls had given up on as cheap and not tippers, but she managed to get them in a party mood and tipping. Everybody won. She made money, they had fun. None of the other dancers could seem to be bothered to make the effort.

Maybe it's just that the girls that last more than a few years are always going to learn skills and be better looking, but I don't think so. I think the standards are going down as is the talent.

I guess I should clarify what I meant by dancing and talent. I don't expect a stage show or coreographed routine, but I like to see a little more than walking around, bending over, shaking the booty, etc. A few pole trick, a bit of variation, some sense of rythm and the ability to at least look like she knows what she's doing are enough to qualify as talent. Many girls can't even muster that. I'm sure some of that is boredom.

I'd also say the looks have gone down hill, seeing my ATF reminded me how absolutely stunning some of the girls were when I first met her as we rattled off names of dancers we both used to like. There are very few I can think of now who match them in looks and none can move like a few of them did, or at least they don't bother.

The other part of the buisness that she said has changed is the crowds. She was working a Saturday dayshift basically because she can't stand the weekend night crowds anymore. Too rude, loud and cheap according to her, but then I've always thought that to be the case.

I think Chandler sums it up well. Actual dancing skills have never meant much to me. I go to the clubs to meet sexy beautiful women, have some conversation and buy some dances. The advent of management's lowering standards in exchange for collecting more house fees has had everything to do with the decline in good strip club talent.

I personally dislike "overly choreographed" sets. I like a girl who CAN move naturally, sexily; but who just gyrates. When she has a whole damn "Guys and Dolls" number worked out with hat and cane -- or knows the rock song well enough to do some kind of sudden movement right when the song goes suddenly loud -- I feel like I'm at a vaudeville show. What I want, is the visual fantasy that she is so goddamned horny that dancing to this pop song makes her cum. The spine and thighs must therefore gyrate accordingly. I don't want her to be so OUT of the fantasy of masturbating, that she is able to pay attention to step after step that she learned in her high school kick line from some dyke Phys Ed instructor.

I don't remember dance talent being a requirement 5 years ago or 13 years ago, when I began going to clubs. I thought the big change occurred before then with the advent of lap dancing. I don't really care. It's okay to see an occasional dancer put on a stage show, although I probably won't be wanting dances from her. I'm more interested in the girl onstage acting sexy and giving me a taste of her action when I tip her. I think they understand most guys are interested in the same thing, so they don't even try to show whatever talent they might have. Real dancing can appear too "stagey" and corny and actually put off customers.

That said, I believe that there has been a sharp decline in good looking dancers over the past 5-8 years, as clubs have let anybody who pays her fees get onstage. As the quality has been diluted, a jackpot mentality from both dancers and customers has coarsened the tone and the whole climate of relations. So, I suppose it's possible that dancing has seen a decline a result without my noticing in the whole scheme of things, or caring.

AN, I agree. I think the business has been going downhill for a long time. It's a big part of the reason that I've nearly lost interest. Higher prices combined with lower quality product is destroying a lot of strip clubs. There are too many clubs and too many dancers, and too many clubs that make their money off the dancers and don't give a shit about their customers, which means that the dancers are in a bad mood most of the time. I spend my money on massages now instead - it's a lot cheaper and I still get to spend very intimate time alone with a pretty girl. Try it sometime, you may never go back.

I agree... I can't stand it when a woman can't dance. It doesn't matter how good looking she is, if she can't keep time to the music or have some rhythm about her, then I don't bother. I don't even care if it is very high mileage. I was at a club and the girl kept reaching down and groping me through her 'dance' and I just stood up after the first song and thanked her for the dance and didn't indicate any interest in another. Maybe I am weird in that aspect, but, one of the reasons I don't get a private dance right off is because I want to watch how a dancer works it...

The big change I referred to that lap dancing brought about was the decline in genuine stage dancing, not the "courtesan" treatment. I think the decline in recent that has come partly with the rise of high priced extras over quality lap dances. Not sure if any of that is applicable to DC clubs.

FONDL, I understand the LD effect. I've accounted for that. I go to LD clubs. I think that too many confuse friction with a good time. Friction, hell, that's not a problem. To me, personally, there is a lot more to a woman and a good time than how agressive a LD she gives. That probably means a lot of us are talking past each other. We are probably crossing into Chitown's fantasy thread.

I like Book Guy's point about a dancer who "knows the rock song well enough to do some kind of sudden movement right when the song goes suddenly loud". This is such a cliche of strippers dancing to their beloved grunge chestnuts with the obligatory soft/loud guitar entry. Oh how it makes me want to hurl.

Just to put this discussion in perspective, you have to remember that AN is doing most of his clubbing in Washington, DC, where there is no private dancing - the only entertainment available other than sitting and talking to the girl is the stage dancing. In that kind of setting I think the ability to dance well is very important.

My definition of good stage dancing is a girl who can move gracefully and keep time to the music, which admittedly is tough to do to some of the crap that passes for "music" these days, which may be part of the problem. I don't care much for the choreographed show either, or the stage gymnastics that some girls do. I agree that some of this is viewing the past through rose-colored glasses - I'm probably guilty of that - but I do think the percentage of dancers who can move gracefully has declined.

A certain amount of this is viewing the past through rose colored glasses. I'm not saying there isn't some truth in all the points that have been raised. It's just that dancers who have been in the biz for five years or more are even more prone to knocking anything new than we are. They'll switch to day shift saying the night shift isn't the same as it used to be when, in fact, what has changed the most is them. I've had a few veteran strippers try to bend my ear about it all, but it's not really my favorite way to pass the time in a club.

Chandler, I think I understand your points, and you make many good ones. I don't want to give the impression that I think your arguments are without merit. I've been through most of them myself. I think there is a lot of the been there done that attitude contributing to the whole decline in the scene. I think I indicated that that was one of my beefs. Anyway, I think turning what was a personal service into a comodity hurt the whole scene, and I still look for the old school girls who see it as a mutual deal, not the sale of a comodity.

Interesting discussion nonetheless.