After being quoted a $500 VIP experience with no details, I got to thinking about the incentives of extras and VIP.
If you were to redesign the payment structure, how would you do it? What are some risks and assumptions to your model?
OTC is best for the girl, which is why in Thailand they have the bar fine. The bar gets its cut as does the girl. If clubs embraced OTC instead of discouraging it, they'd make more money. It's not legal in Thailand either, but no one cares.
Most of the heavy-extras SCers prefer OTC which is understandable - the major drawback to OTC is often a high no-show rate.
ITC is often a ripoff IMO w/ $100+ "rooms" which can often be tiny & uncomfortable and often filthy not to mention the bouncer & waitress shakedown/tip.
w.r.t. ITC extras my policy these days is that I never pay a dancer upfront for anything - I understand their concern for getting ripped-of & the best I'll do is show them I have the $$$ - I don't know for sure but I get the feeling that custies get ripped-off by dancers way more than the other way around - dancers are in the club way more than the avg custy thus know the game way better & thus in a much better position to be the ones doing the ripping-off especially since they may have the bouncers & managers on their side.
I'm had a dancer at the last Miami meetup who promised everything that I wanted in vip but wanted the money upfront. I declined. She said just put the money on the table. I did so, in a place where I could easily grab it if she didn't deliver. She did as promised so we never had a mad rush to grab the money off the table.
Yep , upfront doesn't create a performance incentive. Good points.
I'm OK paying upfront if the girl doesn't know me. But I've been asked for money upfront at a club where I show up enough that the girls recognize me, and from a girl who has danced for me before. That grates.
"... upfront doesn't create a performance incentive .."
It's more than that - some dancers' way of making $$$ is to purposefully and unashamedly rip-off custies - there are dancers that ask for money upfront b/c they are concerned they are gonna get ripped-off by the custy - but there are dancers that ask for the $$$ upfront w/ the intent of ripping you off b/c they know once they got your $$$, they got your $$$ - that's why there is such a term as the "bait and switch".
Of course these booths and back rooms are toll gates. That is the main reason for having them. Lap dancing, starting in San Francisco, used to mean lap sitting.
That it was all out in the open was how they were able to beat Diane Feinstein and her crusade to imprison Jim and Artie.
So after the legal battles were over, this was when the Mafia came in, and when it went to booths and back rooms. Mostly they just give the house a bigger cut.
In my view, letting girls "sell dances" to you is a chumps game. Instead get her to sit with you, or at least try to get her to. If she won't, waive her on. You can feed her money and get friendly with her in the front room. And there should be no house cut. Best is to always treat her like a civilian and just let a makeout session ensue. Save booths and backrooms until really needed, like when your pants are to come down. Otherwise things should be able to happen just fine with your girl on your lap.
If you can get that friendly with her, then what does happen in the back room should be awesome.
Then after that just see her OTC, if not taking her home with you that night.
The club has a right to make money, otherwise it couldn't exist. But you still need to find ways out of the restrictive box they have set up.
At our underground Mexican bar circuit in San Jose, when it was at it's best, $1 at a time, the girls who did that were a wild bunch. Mostly they just tried to set up OTC gigs. And if they had you lined up for that, they let you know that you would not be disappointed.
SJG
The Rolling Stones - Hand of Fate youtube.com
If I do extras I want them to be spontaneous and in the club. OTC is of zero interest to me as I'd rather just set up a date and swap with another cpl.
Never pay up front for anything ever, not ITC, OTC, VIP, or with contractors for other stuff. I have agreed to progress payments with residential contractors. It's funny trying to imagine how progress payments would work for an ITC experience. Okay, here's 25% for condoms, breath mints, and lube. Here's 50%, ready to commence. 25% net 15 after completion
I would think in the OP's scenario it would make sense to pay for the room but withhold the tip for the"extras" until she's serviced you. I think putting the cash out on the table in plain view is the best compromise.
If she walks out (bathroom, whatever, disappears for extended time) I'd ask for the money back from the club. That's assuming she walked out unjustly and not be because her boundaries were crossed, IMO.
I wouldn't put it past some strippers to take a PL's $$$ whille it's sitting on the table.
I've told this story b/f - it was at a heavily-Latina (mainly Cuban) dancers club in Miami - I was talking to an Anglo guy that visits the club semi-regularly - he told me about a previous visit and a hot-ass Cuban he really wanted - he told her he wanted BBBJ and she said no that she didn't do that - it was a slow night and a while later she comes to him and says ok but for $200 - she was hot and he wanted her so he said ok - they go to VIP; she asks him to take off his pants and sit down; then she asks him for the $$$; she takes it and bails out of VIP and he can't chase her w/ his pants down around his ankles - same thing I suppose can happen w/ the $$$ on the table - not saying something like this will happen but def can - I'm always cognizant of dancers' access to my $$$.
^Screen better.
To Rockstar the bar fine is not a bad idea for those clubs that have large numbers of dancers working it also cuts down on their legal liability, as far as being charged with prostitution but It wont work for smaller clubs with only a few girls on each shift. I mean really, if there are 10 dancers on a shift and at any given point in time 4-6 are out of the club with clients the customers left in the club will leave, and probably not come back. It could ruin their business.
taking a girl upstairs at Hong Kong or upstairs at Adelitas. technically OTC by strict definition. The hotel gets the room fee which is under $20 and the girl gets usually 60 $80-$100. pretty good deal in my book. whereas in the club in the US in my experience basically half goes to the club and of course a portion actually goes to the girl from that fee and then there's a tip on top. I suppose in an alcohol or drug induced blur roughly the same percentage either way. and then in a true OTC experience in the USA... unless you are taking her home there a cost involved in getting a hotel room .
scenario I've been in a few times is I pay let's say $150 for a half hour VIP then I pay the girl let's say $200 check $300 tip. because she's an easy nine. she still getting say roughly half of the house fee. in conclusion I'm guess I'm paying too much .
Thought about it more. Here's my hypothesis:
OTC seems to always be the best option. Cuts out the club owner, whose interests are probably least aligned with the PL after extras. Negotiation can happen without a time limit.
For ITC, it would be best if PL and girl agreed on an initial deposit with full payment after PL finishes. Risks are that the girl won't go for it unless the initial deposit is big enough. This also assumes PL can be trusted.