Or is it always just putting on a show for external approval? Is it always about the external status and legitimacy derived?
And when they are widowed, is the grief just to gain external approval?
Of course some of this will be getting into MGTOW territory.
What do people think?
SJG
Women love their man when it's convenient for them. Is that a good answer?
Bobby, I'm not familiar with you. Not sure if you are someone's sock puppet. But your statements sound very much like the tune out crowd, the Miller Time crowd. You don't need to waste your keystrokes on me. I am the undisputed Ultimate Buzzkill!
Shailynn, yes indeed! What you say gets to what I was asking about.
You know I'm involved in local politics, and some of the elected officer holders I'm going after are women of that category. One made a facebook post about how much she admired Nancy Reagan.
The Physicist Richard Feynman said similar things, that love is just something invented by women looking for husbands. He had two bad marriages and he also liked to bring his notes and work out physics problems in SoCal strip clubs. Then his third marriage was good. When he first saw her it was 1960 at the beach and she was in a skimpy bathing suit. He was 42, she was 26.
And also most interesting: amazon.com
SJG
"I also think you need to stop fixating on questions like these, hop in your motor home, and start your tour already."
Motor home jokes to SJG from a supposed noob. Ok so Ya, troll. Thinking maybe from the Juice crew? Not his style but anything is possible. He would fit the demographic for that show.
Yes.
Sure, but they love their husbands money even more.
James, do you mean they do love their husbands, like they actually understand their husband as a person?
Larry, is it the money, or I say it is really the social status, and that the money only contributes to that.
Isn't it true that most of us look down on middle-aged women who are not married?
SJG
"is it the money, or I say it is really the social status, and that the money only contributes to that"
Spot on.
There's no doubt you're a buzz kill SJG.
GACA, another swing and a miss. Not Juice crew, not 20/30 something, and you even have the demographic wrong for that show. You are batting 1,000. Feel free to take my $10k bet whenever you are ready to lose your hard earned money. Tool.
The real SJG, you're good in my book brother.
You are generalizing which is never accurate. Many women love their husbands. Some don't. Same with husband's. Many truly love their wife, and some don't. I once had a good marriage that eventually took a shit, but I'm not bitter. I moved on and you need to do the same. Regret brings you nothing but misery. Let it go.
sclvr5005, no personal malice intended, but I don't go along with that kind of advice, ever. I don't live that way and I am sorry that there ever was a time when I might have. Tune out and denial provide nothing. One has to feel their feelings, and rebuke sharply anyone who says otherwise.
I loved my wife, but she made it impossible.
As far as wives loving husbands, do you believe it? I mean for a woman marriage is so much a part of her social status, so how is it possible that she could ever love her husband?
You say you had a good marriage, but then it turned to shit. I would be curious if you wanted to tell, why it took a shit, and how you knew that it was good before.
SJG
The demographic for that show is 25-50 year old white males. Particularly popular among ages 28-35 white male range. That's not a mistake in the demographics. Anyhow you chose the handle which puts you somewhere between the age of 28-33 (Axelrod in his late 40s so it obviously something you are aspiring to be and not there yet) So that much I'm sure of.
You are also not a noob, you've definitely have participated in this forum before under a previous alias, you can allude yo way too much for a one month member. ..and that much I know
The only person. Immature enough to create an alias account for themselves Juice (which I don't think you are), Nukam (but he's actually busy doing real work). So who ever SJGAY is, you're him.
Check mate faggot
^^^Add Rech to the alias creating list. Dougster too, or so I've been told.
GACA, the only thing you are right about is the demographic being 25 to 50. I'm not in my 20's or 30's. Take the bet tool. You are wrong about everything else. Adios faggot.
I would say for most marriages the answer is yes but you'd do better to get a response from Mrs. sea.
Wow. I agree with sclvr.....you're stereotyping all married women under one bitter umbrella that you have created. That's hardly accurate or fair. I know many couples, both gay & straight, that are deeply devoted to one another. It sounds like your bad marriage soured you and has made you very bitter. That's too bad. But don't take that out on every other married woman in the world. And as far as women having marriage as a social status, I'm calling BS. Most 20-30something y.o. women that I know who aren't married have no interest in getting married anytime soon. Women are finally opening their eyes and realizing that marriage is a load of garbage shoved down our throats since the day we were born. It is something that we should be taught is an option, and not a life long goal. And that is finally happening.
SJG, the answer is a definite yes.
Loved the Feynman reference. He was a Bill Clinton level womanizer.
For any new members, just ignore 'san_jose_gay', as that is just Meat72 trying to drive me off of this board because he doesn't agree with me. This is the level he operates at.
sclvr5005 and lopaw, first of all my OP is entirely framed as a question. So therefore I could not be stereotyping anybody. Rather, I am putting a question out there in an effort to avoid over generalizing and stereo typing.
And thanks Larryfisherman.
Seaboardrr, your one of a small handful on TUSCL who defend marriage, and I believe that you have an open marriage, so I feel that the sort of marriage you have is uncommon. But I am happy for you. But do you actually believe that the majority of wives really understand their husbands and don't just see them as objects?
You know how it is in day time soap operas, the men are wooden, soldiers performing their duties, while the women rule by their hormones. Are there really aren't that many marriages where it is not this way. The women can be emotional because there is no consequence to their actions. The men just have to take it without complaint, or contact a divorce lawyer.
lopaw wrote, " Most 20-30something y.o. women that I know who aren't married have no interest in getting married anytime soon. Women are finally opening their eyes and realizing that marriage is a load of garbage shoved down our throats since the day we were born. It is something that we should be taught is an option, and not a life long goal. And that is finally happening."
Wow, if only that were true. I agree that marriage is a load of shit. But as far as I can see, even if all of a young woman's friends are already having horrible marital troubles, she will still want to be married more than anything else in this world. That is her bottom line fantasy and life goal, and she will do untold amounts of harm to try and actualize it. This is my observation of all the women I have known, and of all of their friends. And as someone who was for a long time married, I did get cut in on a great deal of girl talk, and it is completely ridiculous.
I do think though Lopaw is giving at least a partial and inadvertent confirmation of my view that to the extent a woman sees marriage as necessary to her social status, she will never be able to understand or love her husband.
RandomMember, do you mean women who actually understand their husbands and see them as human beings?
The Canadian novelist Margaret Attwood acknowledges that it is hard for women to write male characters. She says it is easier the other way round. And I would say that her male characters are wooden.
Do you think men are better able to understand women than women understand men? I feel that this is so.
"Dinnerstein argued that sexism and aggression are both inevitable consequences of child rearing being left exclusively to women." en.wikipedia.org
Do you agree with Dinnerstein, her work has influenced many, and to me it makes tremendous sense. Women don't have much experience with men, and what influence women have on men is always going to be seen as evil. So this is the way most societies are. Many separate boys beyond an early age from their mothers, and from most female contact, until they are initiated into adulthood.
So then, "As a solution, Dinnerstein proposed that men and women equally share infant and child care responsibilities."
SJG sites.google.com
Laura Kipnis amazon.com
Barbara Dennerlein - Stormy Weather Blues youtube.com
Four Hammond B3's playing The Cat youtube.com
You're inner demon seems to be a gigantic pussy...is he also the eunuch his exwife appears to have made him?
Please ignore the above trolls, san_jose_gay and ime.
Marriage was really hard. She just did not want it to work. She was not going to allow it to work. She was completely unwilling to be any kind of a partner. Rather, once married everything was to be subordination to outside standards.
Never would she have engaged in sexual infidelity, as she wanted to be right.
Her infidelities were in her idolatrous relationship with money, and in the con artists she got involved with. Eventually I had the State of California act against some of them.
Even to this day the ex is very difficult to communicate with. When she does stuff, she does it in problematic ways, ways which cause problems for other people.
I have woken up in the mornings from nightmares of some how again being trapped in cohabitation with her. Then after some more minutes I remind myself that no such thing is true.
That vision of the woman in the kitchen, always cooking, but always not in anyway allowing partnership.
So as we know, 1+1 = 2. But in relationship situations another kind of math comes into play. Sometimes 1+1 = 3, or maybe 5.5, or maybe about 8.
But in our case 1+1 = 0.5, or maybe only 0.2.
It was just a big crippling, as she would not allow any kind of partnership or shared goals. She felt she had more power by always invoking outside norms, and backing these up via emotional terrorism.
Of course if I ever really acted on this, I'd be serving a life in prison term, if not dead now.
So I had to learn to control my temper, at all times, until I could never be provoked. What she was trying to do always was to provoke me.
The woman in the kitchen, I don't ever want to go through that again, as it means she is there, but she is not allowing the marriage to work. It is just one big nightmare,
I most definitely would never want to live with a woman again. Its like having no home.
There could be some sort of a commune, where the men and women live separately and they control their area. That would be okay, as they would have to resolve all of their disputes themselves.
My ex had friends, and they were problematic. They compared married life. And this always meant trouble. Anything will mean trouble if there is no partnership.
Of her group of 7 high school friends, they all had had horrid marriages. So she followed them. And I saw one of her friends do the same thing myself.
I feel like I have survived something akin to a Death Camp. Death was to have been the only way out, and for so long I feared this.
Never again live with a woman, never again have a legal entanglement with a woman.
SJG
"Seaboardrr, your one of a small handful on TUSCL who defend marriage, and I believe that you have an open marriage, so I feel that the sort of marriage you have is uncommon. But I am happy for you. But do you actually believe that the majority of wives really understand their husbands and don't just see them as objects?"
Let's back up the train just a bit. I never said we have an "open marriage". We do not have what most people call an open marriage and I don't think that's something we'll ever want. I'll insert the huge caveat "never say never" here but we get off on each other; not other people so the whole open/separate thing just isn't in our plans. Everything we do is together and we have a "team goal" when we set out. Sure, she's finds other men/women attractive just like I find other women attractive but it's not something we'd EVER act on alone.
More to your initial question though I think most people, men and women; get married still to this day because they are told they need to be married. Men need to support a family and women need to bear children and take care of the home. I think a lot of people like to think they'll both work and equally bring home the bread but it still seems to end up the woman spends a decade at home pregnant raising kids before she can get back into the work force and usually by then it's nothing meaningful for her.
Thie divorce rate is so high because people get married for every reason EXCEPT love. Even if you get married because it's expected when you just THINK you love someone; as long as you both finally come to the realization that you do truly love that person more than anything then you'll be fine. You'll just be stronger as a couple. It's the 50% of couples who THINK they love each other and only realize years later that they really don't like the other person who have serious issues. My personal belief is that the percentage of couples who TRULY love is other is very low. Half get divorced and then you have a large percentage who stay together simply because they can't afford to get divorced or just simply don't know what they'd do if they split up a family and threw away 10,20,30 years of marriage so they just resign themselves to their lot in life.
With absolutely no scientific basis I'd say maybe 25% of married couples are truly, madly, deeply in love. People in an "open marriage" as you said at the beginning basically have a family business arrangement. In order to stave off divorce they agree to cheat separately.
I'm sure that'll stir up some people.
What you say make perfect sense. For myself, I knew marriage was dicey. I just felt that my girl would be a partner.
But in fact, it turned to shit instantly and then went downhill from there, until it became a full blown death trap.
SJG
SJGuy, thank you for thinking I'm the real SJGay, as his posts are just complete golden prose. SJGuy trolls for his mothers attention.
Got caught up on overdue sleep over memorial day. A bit of an epiphany about my ex-wife. Though still not sure where to do go with it.
Understanding how things went so badly is important to me, because it gets to my own ability to relate to people and judge their characters. As long as I see her as bad, that still reflects back on me.
Women do things indirectly. I've long see that, though I don't think I knew that back before I was married. But now today I can see that it goes much further.
They want the guy to extend himself and take all the key steps and make all the commitments. It might not happen, but them wanting that is not wrong.
And likewise, they don't want to be hurt. And some of them get really pre-emptive in this. They will attack when they perceive the slightest chance of being hurt. They can be quite destructive. But there is often a great deal of pride at stake in the things which they do.
Before being married I had had a live in relationship and it was horrid. It started off with pure endorphins. But soon I was being held up to all sorts of conformist standards, by a girl committed to a life of external appearances. I was being walked all over. I did not know how to protect myself. I'm not saying that people need to be pre-emptive and hurt the other to protect themselves. But I still needed to do a better job of standing up for myself, and write that neurotic stupid girl off.
I didn't and I was hurt badly.
So with the next one I was very slow to let things start and I did not want to cohabitate with her. So it was for more than a year or two that I would be seeing her more than once per week.
So she there paying our high rents.
To Be Continued
SJG
1964 - John Coltrane - A Love Supreme youtube.com
More than a year or two before I was seeing her more than once per week. So there she was paying our high rents, like in Palo Alto or Mountain View.
SJG
She was trying to show me that she was not like some other women, that she could hold up her end, so to speak.
But still, she was catching hell from friends, because we were not moving fast enough towards the altar.
Women get it that way, and they don't tell their friends to fuck off or else.
SJG
Yipes! My ex is back nearby!
Probably she is staying with her brother. She is trying to reconcile.
But I am not going to see her, or to talk on the phone with her. I had already gone non-responsive to her emails. Meaning I write to her at length, but I act like I have not read her emails. So she cannot interrogate me or try to pin me down.
I am not going to see her, or otherwise communicate with her.
She is starting to see how much she did wrong during our years together, but just starting to see. I her replies to my emails, she is not really relating to me. Just like when we were married.
Yipes! Yipes! Yipes!
And why another woman, lots of other women, but not her? Is it just age?
No, it is because of the ways she used the marriage as a weapon, and the harms she inflicted!
SJG
John 4:19 We love [God], because [God] first loved us. [KJV]
It is said husbands should love their wives like Jesus loves the church. The husband leads and the wife follows (though not always !!).
John 4:19 says that we love because God loved us first. Love stimulates love. (That answers your title question)
Some women look for men they can control and take advantage of. I did not realize it, but I was such a man.
NEVER AGAIN!
SJG
Tony Levin, Stick Men, Larks' Tongues in Aspic II youtube.com
What do I think? I think you are taking way too long to get over the emotional damage that your ex caused you.
I also think you need to stop fixating on questions like these, hop in your motor home, and start your tour already.
You'll be a lot happier once you do.