Whats everyone's thoughts. Honest no BS thoughts. I know in my opinion its a toss up. i get a sense of empowerment from having a guts to get up there and strip down and dance but i would be lying if i said there wasn't at least a little bit of.... shame (not the right word but all i can think of) for exposing myself to people. I don't know that it is my shame but more so shame of how others think of me. That used to matter a lot but after a few years dancing that went away and by now is def. gone. I'm curious as to how customers look at this topic. Each dancer will feel differently about it because its personal to them but as a non worker what do you think. Do you think its an empowering or degrading profession?
Like a lot of things in life, IMO it's what one makes it out to be. This can apply to both a dancer and customer.
As a customer, I enjoy it was what it is. I am friendly and polite to all dancers, both those I visit with and ultimately head to VIP, and those I have no interest in. Can't control how a dancer feels about what they are doing but my initial thought is I hope they are having fun with it.
Would also add that a lot people I life....even professionals....might be able to look back at an undesirable job or two they did at some point in their life. Fast food, digging ditches, ect, while in school.
If I were a dancer, I would look at dancing the same way. IMO a big thing for a dancer would be knowing their end game. Like those of us who have worked fast food or dug ditches, we were working towards a bigger picture and knew our end game.
I can see the non desirable job aspect however that can be twisted into the whole started with nothing and now im rich and famous or at least have a stable lifestyle. with dancing though there is always the risk of getting found out by someone. For example the doctor, lawyer etc that you hire and realize that she was your ATF 20 years ago. is she a professional or would you still judge her based on an ex dancing lifestyle
If it's honest work that supports you and your family, without stealing from or defrauding otheas, it's not degrading. Those who look down on or demean strippers (or garbage men, or hookers, or fast food workers, or any other line of work) generally fall into three broad categories:
- those who are jealous because they can't do it.
- those who use words like "degrading", "demeaning", etc, as a way to make you feel guilty about you so that they can manipulate you in some way.
- those who need to feel good about themselves, and have nothing about which to actually feel good, and so fool themselves into thinking they're better than some other person by degrading or demeaning them.
Mine is obviously a dancer's perspective. This is how I feel.
There are dancers who view this as nothing but a lucrative job, take it seriously, and are professional. These are usually the dancers who either have an end game, or are career strippers. Strippers with end games are usually in school and get at least a bachelors degree during their course of stripping, while the stripping pays for school and hopefully allows for a comfortable lifestyle instead of being a "broke college kid." This is what ultimately led me to dancing. I didn't give myself a time-frame and say I want to dance x amount of years, I just want to dance until I obtain each degree I am striving for. I don't always go full time because once I get the corporate career I'm going for, I will have very limited vacation time for a long time and I want to spend my 20s traveling while I obtain my degrees. I also don't want to struggle financially, which I did before I stripped.
There are career strippers who dance until they aren't physically fit for it, but they are working smart and saving their money. They perhaps own property and have a lot in savings and investments. They could even open a business to have an income after their life of stripping. They can live comfortably after they're "retired."
I don't see how stripping can be degrading to someone who falls under the aforementioned "stripper types." They are making an honest living to make sure they have a good life. They are also in control of their lives, which is empowering.
Then there are girls doing this out of desperation because they need lots of money quick or because they have no aspirations or motivation to think they are capable of doing anything else. That, to me, is where stripping gets degrading. If you are desperate for money you're more likely to cross personal boundaries and then feel bad about yourself afterwards. If you're stripping to get by only because you feel you're not capable to dream bigger, you already don't feel good about yourself.
So really I feel like it comes down to how well a stripper manages her finances, emotions, and future.
I have no shame in the fact that I dance. Besides my extended family on my dad's side (the middle aged+ are all super religious Catholics), I have no problem telling people I'm a dancer. I carry myself well and I live comfortably so I have no shame in what I do. Sometimes I sit back and think, "wow, a LOTTTTT of guys have seen my boobs!" and that's kind of weird, they're just boobs.
So personally, I feel empowered. When my name has JD and MBA next to it, I will proudly thank Nina for helping me get there and being able to travel the world along the journey. Totally empowering.
I want to say neutral, but subconsciously I probably believe it to degrading. I have noticed I spend more time in strip clubs when i had a bad female boss, or when I was pissed at my gf. Now that I'm the boss, I do it a lot less except for my business trips.
When I'm outside the strip club I feel it's sometimes degrading. It's not something I talk about participating in with other people, other than my closest friends which club as well. A lot of strippers I know say they keep their profession from family and friends. I know some who keep it from their children and I have even met a few who don't tell their boyfriend or husband, which I think would be hard to hide. Unless you're a thief what other profession do you not tell others about?
Now inside the club, total different story, I do find a lot of the women empowering and sexy. Especially when they are on stage or sitting down to chat, oozing confidence and charm.
As long as you're not hurting others while making your money, I don't judge how people earn their money. Stripping has a stigma attached to it which isn't going away anytime soon. Most girls inside the club wouldn't be earning what they are if they weren't removing their clothes, but on the other hand most of the guys inside the club wouldn't be able to get anywhere near girls this attractive on the outside of the club walls.
Stripping is a job. It is what you do with that money that makes it degrading or empowering. Spend all of it on drugs and live day to day, like your customers blow their wallet on you, or live a normal life with a SO or give your kids a good upbringing. Some dancers that strip not for $ but for ego upset me. They give up the same goods in a civie nightclub for free that they would in a SC for $. Its the same thing when I see certain dancers and certain regulars in my SC and I've never seen $ exchanged, them goto VIP, or them going to the POS station. Are these the BFs or drug dealers of the strippers or just "aspiring rappers" and the strippers think the rapper will put a ring on it and she will get half the mansion a few years later? This pisses me off, since these strippers are inaccessible except for their regulars, WTF do you even come here instead of schedule a date at a regular night club?
Chain SCs like Scores or Ricks have pages of rules in a dancer contract, probably to avoid this situation where the strippers act like civie women on the clock. I have an ATF, but she regularly leaves my side any time she sees a new customer walk in, 9 out of 10 times, she is back very quickly unless he buys a LD. She knows how to do her job, its the "I never leave my regular for 3 hours on a friday night except to smoke and piss" dancers which piss me off. As much as I hate the drink hustle clubs, or bouncer taps dancer on shoulder and tell her to move on clubs, since I suffer the consequences, stuck up bitch dancers actually need to prodded along like cattle off their regular since they are star stuck thinking he is filthy rich and just maybe if she is lucky he will be a sugar daddy (NOT!) to her.
I think strippers have a lot of guys to do what they do! It's something I couldn't do (at like a male strip club). That being said, it's also not a job to brag about and society, especially the religious types look down upon. So I think it's really both at the same time.
I think that's a question only the dancer can answer. Some are empowered, some feel degraded but most are like you, some of each. I feel sorry for the ones who feel degraded and those who feel stuck in the job. In addition to it being a shitty way to have to live your life that attitude generally shows and at least for me means no interest, no matter how hot she might be.
It depends on the dancer's approach. If she does shit that she really doesn't want to do then she's under someone else's control. If she plays only her game on her terms then she's empowered.
Until someone proves to me they deserve to be treated like shit I treat everyone I meet with dignity and respect. The worst thing that can happen to a divorce lawyer is to not get your case heard by 1pm lunch and have to come back at 2:15. It kills billable hours. Because I treat the clerks as well as the judges, I have been back at 2:15 once in 9 years and that was my fault. Treat the Court officers well and they go make free copies for you instead of walking 3 flights to spend a dollar a copy. Treat dancers like the human beings they are and while it still costs money you find out you get more. I treat the police the same way when I get stopped and its eithert hat or dumb luck because I have been stopped 6 times in my life where if I blew into the machine, it would have melted. Once cop even (outside the inner room cabaret) "I bet if you took the breath test you'd blow up the machine, but you seem nice, actually passed the tests, although I have no idea how so I'd be willing to call this a $125.00 speeding ticket if you promised not to appeal and call it quits. I agreed; he let me drive off and the next morning I mailed a check, although after 10 hours of sleep I was still too hurting to play golf.
I think it's empowering. Nothing degrading about working and making an honest living. I couldn't do what dancers do - so I envy the strength of character that dancers have.
I don't want to go too far - and get my PL card revoked again - but I think it requires a strong woman to dance.
I think that the empowerment or degradation is strictly in the dancer's mind and how she approaches it.. The job is just that, a job, no more or less worthy than any other that people do for a living.
You can only be degraded if you degrade yourself.
To thine own self be true and the rest of the world can fuck off!
There are many more 'legitimate' jobs that should be viewed as more "shameful" than any job in the "sex" industry. A dancer fills a particular need in society and an honest dancer is selling a service for which he or she is paid. Why is it ok for a man or a woman to go to a bar and take someone for a one night stand or go on a date or two before they fuck. What is the difference between fucking for the cost of a drink, dinner, honestly directly paying for it, or waiting for an engagement ring. I have seldom met anyone who had a no strings fuck buddy (that was straight).
You want to see shameful: walk into any government office and see that every third person is doing all the work, the rest are a waste of oxygen. Those worthless pos's are ALWAYS the ones judging others yet they are a dishonest burden on the working portion of society.
If you work and support yourself, great.
I say may 'he who is free of sin cast the first stone'. I have never in my 6 decades ever met anyone who could honestly have the first toss.
I have never been able to understand why it is OK to sell the use of everything on your body (hands, feet, eyes, brain, ears, eyes, tongue, face,) except your genitals whether that be exposing them or using them. What people do inside is their own business.
The biggest problem is the vice that surround the clubs i.e. drugs and forced sex trafficking.
Degrade me and I'll like you more. I was asked to be a male prostitute long ago by one of my bar customers. I was flattered that he thought I was the type to engage in paid sex with his women clients. You do what you want in life if you are lucky. poledancer83. I've been lucky, I turned the man down and continued doing what I liked best at the time.
Just as a dancer looses all respect infront of certain male and female friends when she says what she does. A PL will loose all respect infront of certain other men. Some people will never look at you the same way again. I only disclose I SC to friends who tell me first they have paid a sex worker atleast once in their life, even once. Once they admit it, I'll say everything openly with them.
"Is that a black/white one?"
How strong are you in being stereotyped? What goes through your mind when you are fucking a sex worker or have one grinding on you? Do you feel disgusting and used by her for cash? Do you regret afterwards spending the $? Do you think of all the other mens she fucked when you fuck her and is that a turn on or a turn off? Do you think why can't you get a civie woman for free? Or is she a memory you will never forget and never regret?
Some favs of mine, not #1 or #2, are 18 years old, but low mileage but 10s look wise and talking wise, they always LD with their eyes closed for most of the time for me. I always thought that means they hate their jobs and dont accept they are sex workers inside.
I was thinking in a way both as well. From the typical general public, many view it as degrading so you don't talk about visiting strip clubs with many people you know. This is just conforming to the society norm with all the Puritan religious views society has that women must be married and that there should be no sex outside marriage etc etc that most I believe in private disagree with. Because I live in a region where many hold religious views, I see no benefit in bringing up a subject that could cause an argument.
Now from a personal viewpoint it is empowering that women can feel free to show off their beauty that God gave them and it is empowering that men can watch without being degraded by the rest of society at least in the club for doing so. I think our society is backwards. What is more degrading, working long hours doing a job that sucks or doing something you enjoy? I was thinking the other day, I would never want to be a plumber clearing all the shit out of a clogged sewer.
I've overheard guys bathroom talk sounding jealous in a strip club that all they would need is a nice pair of tits and ass and they could rake in the money without doing any real work.
I believe many in the strip club business don't understand all their free tshirts, golf hats, etc, with club logos just get tossed in a bag and usually are never worn in public by most guys. Because our society holds all these religious views and looks down upon strip clubs because that is not conforming, they would look down on anyone wearing logos supporting non conformance, It may not be most people but sometimes it only takes one person to cause trouble. I don't think this is fair but I do not believe life is fair either. I am not a revolutionary so I'm not going to go out on a limb trying to change the views of society. It's the way the people who hold certain religious views look down on all of us who are associated with nonconforming views that is degrading. They look down on us because we do not agree with their views. We may look down on them for doing so but I believe they still have the majority of society agreeing with them for now. If this wasn't true, prostitution would probably be legal and just thought of something similar as a natural biology function to relieve tension. All restaurants and businesses have bathrooms to relieve people of some functions but when it comes to sexual tensions, they disapprove of letting people set up a place to do that, except in Nevada.
As many above said, empowering or degrading is significantly in someone's head. From a stripper perspective, I can see "I am empowered by my ability to support myself financially, and to command the attention and emotions of so many men through my sexual power and charisma" OR "I am degraded by the way these men treat me, by the fact that my only value to society is my sexuality, by being objectified"... and to the extent that I can tell, many of the strippers who I've known feel some mix of both,
Unfortunately, given how society has stigmatized sex work of any kind, I think it's a rare and super strong woman for whom the empowerment feelings are significantly more than the degradation feelings... and, I truly think that's a shame. And among the strippers who I've been privileged to get to know on a much deeper level, I often feel that to the extent that many of the women feel empowered, it's kind of a false bravado that they pump themselves up with, to build up some emotional armor against the degradation part. Hell, to the extent that a stripper, or anyone in sex work, hides their profession from others, is a pretty big indicator about whether she feels it's more empowering or degrading.
To be clear: I don't believe sex work should carry a stigma, wish it could bring the same level of pride and empowerment as any other job
Think of it this way. If you make a living by not using your brain, but showing off your body then why should ANY normal person think you have profound thoughts. All you know how to do is show off your body. And not even creatively, just take off your clothes and gyrate. The people of TUSCL are NOT normal people by definition.
An Athlete cannot be compared for the simple reason that he has to really understand his body and sometimes the human anatomy to get the win for him/herself and/or their team. Its not even to run and throw. Real strategy is involved and real hard labor training. And you have to at least but very rarely have a HSD/GED though normally go through college.
Is it degrading, by social standards....in America yes. Though I find it more humiliating to know I'm considered too stupid to make money by any other method but showing off my body....and drinking.
These are excellent counter points. The truth is - dancing is an honest living - and there's no reason to look down on dancers.
That being said - I think sone folks have deeply seated religious views that cause them to look down on people involved in sex work. Thats fine. But they should also let others do what they desire.
When I see someone railing against certain practices - I generally jump to the conclusion that the person railing has some major issues and they might not have the ability to say no.
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As a customer, I enjoy it was what it is. I am friendly and polite to all dancers, both those I visit with and ultimately head to VIP, and those I have no interest in. Can't control how a dancer feels about what they are doing but my initial thought is I hope they are having fun with it.
If I were a dancer, I would look at dancing the same way. IMO a big thing for a dancer would be knowing their end game. Like those of us who have worked fast food or dug ditches, we were working towards a bigger picture and knew our end game.
- those who are jealous because they can't do it.
- those who use words like "degrading", "demeaning", etc, as a way to make you feel guilty about you so that they can manipulate you in some way.
- those who need to feel good about themselves, and have nothing about which to actually feel good, and so fool themselves into thinking they're better than some other person by degrading or demeaning them.
There are dancers who view this as nothing but a lucrative job, take it seriously, and are professional. These are usually the dancers who either have an end game, or are career strippers. Strippers with end games are usually in school and get at least a bachelors degree during their course of stripping, while the stripping pays for school and hopefully allows for a comfortable lifestyle instead of being a "broke college kid." This is what ultimately led me to dancing. I didn't give myself a time-frame and say I want to dance x amount of years, I just want to dance until I obtain each degree I am striving for. I don't always go full time because once I get the corporate career I'm going for, I will have very limited vacation time for a long time and I want to spend my 20s traveling while I obtain my degrees. I also don't want to struggle financially, which I did before I stripped.
There are career strippers who dance until they aren't physically fit for it, but they are working smart and saving their money. They perhaps own property and have a lot in savings and investments. They could even open a business to have an income after their life of stripping. They can live comfortably after they're "retired."
I don't see how stripping can be degrading to someone who falls under the aforementioned "stripper types." They are making an honest living to make sure they have a good life. They are also in control of their lives, which is empowering.
Then there are girls doing this out of desperation because they need lots of money quick or because they have no aspirations or motivation to think they are capable of doing anything else. That, to me, is where stripping gets degrading. If you are desperate for money you're more likely to cross personal boundaries and then feel bad about yourself afterwards. If you're stripping to get by only because you feel you're not capable to dream bigger, you already don't feel good about yourself.
So really I feel like it comes down to how well a stripper manages her finances, emotions, and future.
I have no shame in the fact that I dance. Besides my extended family on my dad's side (the middle aged+ are all super religious Catholics), I have no problem telling people I'm a dancer. I carry myself well and I live comfortably so I have no shame in what I do. Sometimes I sit back and think, "wow, a LOTTTTT of guys have seen my boobs!" and that's kind of weird, they're just boobs.
So personally, I feel empowered. When my name has JD and MBA next to it, I will proudly thank Nina for helping me get there and being able to travel the world along the journey. Totally empowering.
Now inside the club, total different story, I do find a lot of the women empowering and sexy. Especially when they are on stage or sitting down to chat, oozing confidence and charm.
As long as you're not hurting others while making your money, I don't judge how people earn their money. Stripping has a stigma attached to it which isn't going away anytime soon. Most girls inside the club wouldn't be earning what they are if they weren't removing their clothes, but on the other hand most of the guys inside the club wouldn't be able to get anywhere near girls this attractive on the outside of the club walls.
Chain SCs like Scores or Ricks have pages of rules in a dancer contract, probably to avoid this situation where the strippers act like civie women on the clock. I have an ATF, but she regularly leaves my side any time she sees a new customer walk in, 9 out of 10 times, she is back very quickly unless he buys a LD. She knows how to do her job, its the "I never leave my regular for 3 hours on a friday night except to smoke and piss" dancers which piss me off. As much as I hate the drink hustle clubs, or bouncer taps dancer on shoulder and tell her to move on clubs, since I suffer the consequences, stuck up bitch dancers actually need to prodded along like cattle off their regular since they are star stuck thinking he is filthy rich and just maybe if she is lucky he will be a sugar daddy (NOT!) to her.
I don't want to go too far - and get my PL card revoked again - but I think it requires a strong woman to dance.
To thine own self be true and the rest of the world can fuck off!
There are many more 'legitimate' jobs that should be viewed as more "shameful" than any job in the "sex" industry. A dancer fills a particular need in society and an honest dancer is selling a service for which he or she is paid. Why is it ok for a man or a woman to go to a bar and take someone for a one night stand or go on a date or two before they fuck. What is the difference between fucking for the cost of a drink, dinner, honestly directly paying for it, or waiting for an engagement ring. I have seldom met anyone who had a no strings fuck buddy (that was straight).
You want to see shameful: walk into any government office and see that every third person is doing all the work, the rest are a waste of oxygen. Those worthless pos's are ALWAYS the ones judging others yet they are a dishonest burden on the working portion of society.
If you work and support yourself, great.
I say may 'he who is free of sin cast the first stone'. I have never in my 6 decades ever met anyone who could honestly have the first toss.
I have never been able to understand why it is OK to sell the use of everything on your body (hands, feet, eyes, brain, ears, eyes, tongue, face,) except your genitals whether that be exposing them or using them. What people do inside is their own business.
The biggest problem is the vice that surround the clubs i.e. drugs and forced sex trafficking.
Empowering to All!
SJG
Awesome
James Carter Organ Trio - Jazzwoche Burghausen 2004
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_d0I97Z…
A question more suited to this board and not SW:
Being a PL, respectable or shameful?
Is that a black/white one?
A question more suited to this board and not SW:
Being a PL, respectable or shameful?
Is that a black/white one?
Just as a dancer looses all respect infront of certain male and female friends when she says what she does. A PL will loose all respect infront of certain other men. Some people will never look at you the same way again. I only disclose I SC to friends who tell me first they have paid a sex worker atleast once in their life, even once. Once they admit it, I'll say everything openly with them.
"Is that a black/white one?"
How strong are you in being stereotyped? What goes through your mind when you are fucking a sex worker or have one grinding on you? Do you feel disgusting and used by her for cash? Do you regret afterwards spending the $? Do you think of all the other mens she fucked when you fuck her and is that a turn on or a turn off? Do you think why can't you get a civie woman for free? Or is she a memory you will never forget and never regret?
Some favs of mine, not #1 or #2, are 18 years old, but low mileage but 10s look wise and talking wise, they always LD with their eyes closed for most of the time for me. I always thought that means they hate their jobs and dont accept they are sex workers inside.
And since that dancer had a PhD then it must be true
Now from a personal viewpoint it is empowering that women can feel free to show off their beauty that God gave them and it is empowering that men can watch without being degraded by the rest of society at least in the club for doing so. I think our society is backwards. What is more degrading, working long hours doing a job that sucks or doing something you enjoy? I was thinking the other day, I would never want to be a plumber clearing all the shit out of a clogged sewer.
I've overheard guys bathroom talk sounding jealous in a strip club that all they would need is a nice pair of tits and ass and they could rake in the money without doing any real work.
Unfortunately, given how society has stigmatized sex work of any kind, I think it's a rare and super strong woman for whom the empowerment feelings are significantly more than the degradation feelings... and, I truly think that's a shame. And among the strippers who I've been privileged to get to know on a much deeper level, I often feel that to the extent that many of the women feel empowered, it's kind of a false bravado that they pump themselves up with, to build up some emotional armor against the degradation part. Hell, to the extent that a stripper, or anyone in sex work, hides their profession from others, is a pretty big indicator about whether she feels it's more empowering or degrading.
To be clear: I don't believe sex work should carry a stigma, wish it could bring the same level of pride and empowerment as any other job
An Athlete cannot be compared for the simple reason that he has to really understand his body and sometimes the human anatomy to get the win for him/herself and/or their team. Its not even to run and throw. Real strategy is involved and real hard labor training. And you have to at least but very rarely have a HSD/GED though normally go through college.
Is it degrading, by social standards....in America yes. Though I find it more humiliating to know I'm considered too stupid to make money by any other method but showing off my body....and drinking.
That being said - I think sone folks have deeply seated religious views that cause them to look down on people involved in sex work. Thats fine. But they should also let others do what they desire.
When I see someone railing against certain practices - I generally jump to the conclusion that the person railing has some major issues and they might not have the ability to say no.
SJG
I know who the troll is, and the longer it goes on the more obvious it gets.
SJG
Lori Graves playing Pirates Of The Caribbean on the Lowrey Organ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9GSSApv…