About Deja Vu and what it did to San Francisco

The TL;DR is: in 2000, SF was arguably in the running for best SC city in the US. Today, it's got to be among the worst major cities, and the exact cause of that is Deja Vu.

SJG and I will never agree on this, evidently, but some corrections:

"I am very glad that in San Francisco they seem to have retreated back to Centerfolds on Broadway only. Look on their web site, as they list nothing else in San Francisco."

Deja Vu continues to run every single strip club in the city except Mitchell Brothers and Crazy Horse, as far as I know -- and based on a lot of evidence, I'm pretty sure I'm right.

-->"So the first step was to prohibit front room contact and force it all into booths and VIP Rooms"

Hmm, I'm not sure where your definition of front room contact starts and ends. If it means "no extras in the front room", then definitely you're right. If it means "girls can't sit on a customer's lap in the front room", then definitely that's not true, that's not terribly uncommon. With playful girls on a relaxed shift, there might be a little stick shifting, etc.

--->"Now nothing can happen until you hand the girl a big wad of cash and place he situation entirely under her control. It isn't interactive anymore; it is a service she renders upon you."

Again, if by "nothing can happen", you are talking specifically about extras, then yes, I agree. But otherwise, from sitting on my lap, to stick shifting, to a finger inserted surreptitiously into a vagina or asshole, there are all things that can be in the "front room", with the right girl, on the right shift. There are still clubs with lazy, relaxed dayshifts, where a LOT of interaction can be had in the front room ... but that interaction won't be extras, or kissing, or heavy petting, if that's what you mean

"Deja Vu continues to run every single strip club in the city except Mitchell Brothers and Crazy Horse, as far as I know -- and based on a lot of evidence,"

What it actually was was that when Willy Brown was Mayor and Terrance Hallinan was DA, such clubs were no longer illegal. So where as Jim and Artie wanted to provoke and infuriate the authorities, now they were all being run by people who just wanted to make money. So increasingly and from all quarters, it was being said that the clubs were being run by the Italian Mafia. And then came Deja Vu.

Based on evidence, what evidence do you Subraman have that Deja Vu runs anything except Centerfolds?

" If it means "girls can't sit on a customer's lap in the front room", then definitely that's not true, that's not terribly uncommon."

When I have been in Deja Vu San Francisco Clubs there is no touching in the front room. No lap sitting, not much of anything. And of course no kissing.

Now true, one girl would reverse this in the booth after I'd DATYed her. Another reversed it in the front room and was DFKing me as she wanted more dances and to set up OTC. But most of the time, no touching, no lap sitting, no kissing. This is my direct personal experience and it was explained to me by the girls.

Today you might see all sorts of great stuff going on in these clubs. But this is POST DEJA VU!

"Again, if by "nothing can happen", you are talking specifically about extras, then yes, I agree."

No, I'm not talking about extras, I'm talking about these basic civilian modes of moving on a girl, like pawing her and kissing her. Prohibited in Deja Vu clubs as they keep it in the backrooms and booths. So you have to hand her the money first and let her do it, instead of playing with her in a more interactive manner and feeding her the money little by little and having lots of fun getting her softened up and running on the parasympathetic nervous system.

If you are seeing otherwise, great, because you are in POST DEJA VU clubs.

If somehow Deja Vu is still there in these clubs, then all I can say is that Deja Vu must be changing as the legal regulatory environment changes.

But understand, the Deja Vu way is not to go a far as they possibly can without getting busted. Their way is to impose constraints and stay behind everybody else. This lets them higher more young hotties. One of the main ways of doing this is to severely limit the more interactive mode of front room play, and instead force it into booths and back rooms where the house gets a bigger cut and the interaction is degraded. So maximum back room mileage might still be there, but it will be less GFE and the typical mileage will be less. So at least in San Francisco, LE is powerless to do anything.

If you can play with the girl in the front room, then what she does in the back room will most likely be mind blowing.

But if instead she is put into 'extras' mode, it will usually be shit.

SJG

Whole Lotta Love youtube.com

"Based on evidence, what evidence do you Subraman have that Deja Vu runs anything except Centerfolds?"

JUst for the record, I would love nothing more than to come back here and tell you that you're right and I'm wrong. I have no ego tied up in this argument; fuck, I'd kill to be wrong on this one. But there's too many signs that point otherwise...

I've cited a lot of things in previous responses, including a number of cases where things happened like this: Upper management shuffled things up, and moved a Gold Club manager to Penthouse, a Penthouse manager to Hustler, a Hustler manager to Gold Club, another Hustler manager to Centerfolds, and a Gold Club manager to Roaring 20s (I changed the name of the actual clubs, but you get the idea). This is not, as you've hypothesized in the past, a complete coincidence that 5 senior managers all moved clubs at exactly the same time, perfectly coordinated to fill each others' roles, and coincidentally none moved to the two non-dejavu clubs. The managers themselves told me: upper management is shuffling managers among the clubs. There is one layer of management over them, it is ultimately one organization. I can cite multiple cases of this kind of thing happening -- including naming the actual clubs and in some cases, the names of the managers (that is, I know the managers and clubs pretty well, and verify this happened, though not saying names here for obvious reasons)

Another example: a Penthouse girl told me directly that a few weeks ago, all the club managers came in to have dinner at Penthouse (Penthouse has by far the best restaurant), hosted by the big boss. She didn't know every manager, but could recognize the managers from 5 different clubs, and there were other club managers there, she claims. I think it's far-fetched that a bunch of competitors all got together for dinner. I don't think the stripper was making this up -- of all the stories to make up, why this? -- but realize stranger things have happened.

"When I have been in Deja Vu San Francisco Clubs there is no touching in the front room. No lap sitting, not much of anything."

Well, since we disagree that, say, Gold Club is a Deja Vu club, it's hard to argue. When exactly do you think Deja Vu gave up Gold Club and Hustler? Girls have been sitting on laps and flirting at those clubs forever, at least since 2009 when I started going to non-extras clubs. I don't go to Centerfolds very often so can't argue there; next time I go, I'll let you know if I get any sitting-on-lap action

Subraman, you are talking about clubs which are not listed on Deja Vu's corporate web site. They like to promote themselves by listing all of their clubs everywhere, and even their Chicken Ranch Brothel.

So I am inclined to believe that their web site is complete.

Okay, but it is still possible that at least some of what you are saying is true. Sometimes influence is exerted in other ways.

Remember also that Deja Vu claims itself to be management consultants. This means that they don't need to own a club to claim it as their own. They just set up some looser arrangement and influence the club, while getting some of the money.

So the movements of these managers you are seeing could be simply a demonstration of the clubbiness of that industry. Or maybe you are seeing something else which works behind the scenes, like La Cosa Nostra. These guys actually come in when the legal pressure is less, not greater. Today they make their money off of real estate, construction, and legal gambling.

Sitting on laps since 2009? That is not very far back at all. That's just like yesterday. Terrance Hallinan and Willy Brown and the building of totally private rooms in New Century and Market St. Cinema occurred over 15 years earlier.

If 2009 and since you are seeing dancers being interactive with customers in the front room, awesome! But the most reliable evidence available, the Deja Vu corporate web site, says that they are long gone. So this must be why things are better. Good riddance!

SJG

Will this court recess for lunch?

lol

Subraman, as far as your question about when Deja Vu took over, and then when it must have pulled back, I don't know the answer to that, but I would like to find out. And then also, why did it pull back?

Remember Spectator Magazine? That was outstanding and I would generally go with their interpretations.

The main non-touristy clubs were MBOT, New Century, Market St. Cinema, and Crazy Horse.

Pink Diamonds was underground.

MBOT was the original contact club, but with Artie shot dead and Jim in prison for doing it, MBOT was not longer at the forefront of the politics. So a different sort of operator took over, more interested in making money than making political statements.

So Market St. Cinema and New Century, with the green light from Terrance Hallinan and Willy Brown, started building their private rooms big enough for you know what.

Crazy Horse must have early on established itself as just a jack shack. Not much chance of getting busted unless FS is being done so regularly that girls are soliciting openly. Occasionally and just for those who really want it, isn't going to cause trouble with LE.

So Market St. Cinema and New Century were in the lead. The rest of the stuff was touristy and so let Deja Vu have it. It didn't matter.

As far as New Century and Market St. Cinema, it became more and more known that these were being run by the Italian Mafia. Jim and Artie had run MBOT, in total defiance of the City, and twice went through felony trials. But the Mafia doesn't do this, break the law as a matter of principle. It comes in when it can work with the City.

And it may be that for Deja Vu to come in, that there has to already be something like the Italian Mafia in control.

So then disaster, word spread that Deja Vu now had New Century!! So then only Market St. Cinema was left as a FS oriented venue. But then as Terrance Hallinan was voted out, pressure got put on Market St. Cinema and through some twists and turns, it ended up closed.

So this was the Darkest Moment, Deja Vu running New Century, and Market St. Cinema closed. That was the time to leave San Francisco.

But then TUSCL's own Subraman started talking about clubs on Broadway. These had all been tourist oriented Deja Vu shops, especially Roaring 20's and Garden of Eden. But Subraman started talking about them as wild and wooly places with hard hustlers.

Then people started talking about New Century the same way, and so it became clear that Deja Vu had pulled back.

Why?

Deja Vu, at least as I have seen, employs few blacks. But in most dives in this area they have a disproportionate number of blacks. I believe this will be true at New Century and Roaring 20's.

Deja Vu's system requires convincing the dancers that their clip joint, fantasy over delivery, approach is in their interest.

Black dancers are too smart to believe this. They won't go along with it. They will do it their way, doing whatever it takes, and climbing on guys and making out with them in the front room, or whatever. They will take front room money and cut the house out. They won't listen to the bosses and they won't be intimidated by the other girls.

I saw how this worked first hand with smart black dancers from Market St. Cinema coming into the table dancing shows in San Jose's Mexican bars and infuriating these stupid white shit head girls, by making their own no rules rules.

So probably the Deja Vu system works only in certain types of clubs, and not in the worst of dives where you have girls who only follow their own rules.

So if indeed Deja Vu has retreated to Centerfolds only, good. Let them take money off of tourists and others who don't like 'ghetto' girls, and everyone else can enjoy the awesome fun at these wilder clubs.

SJG

Hello Vietnam youtube.com

Lunch recess is over you pack of fucks.

---> "So the movements of these managers you are seeing could be simply a demonstration of the clubbiness of that industry."

The notion that multiple competitors will get together to move managers all at the same time, to develop all those managers, is ... unlikely. Why in the world would one owner say, "I have a high performing manager, I'm going to move him to your club, and send me your current underperforming manager so I can train him for you." Not in this universe. Moreover, again, two of the managers themselves told me that this was a decision by corporate -- again, one layer of management.

-->"Sitting on laps since 2009? That is not very far back at all. That's just like yesterday. Terrance Hallinan and Willy Brown and the building of totally private rooms in New Century and Market St. Cinema occurred over 15 years earlier."

The point I was making is, you seem to think that deja vu owned all the clubs at some point, and then sold them all? I'm certain that didn't happen, but if it did, I'm wondering when exactly you think that occurred... because again, the girls have been sitting on laps in the main room at the alcohol clubs for the past 7 years

Subraman wrote: Why in the world would one owner say, "I have a high performing manager, I'm going to move him to your club, and send me your current underperforming manager so I can train him for you."

Do you know that the people were talking to each other this way?

In San Jose's Viet Coffee Shops, girls move from one to another all the time. But most are owned by different people.

Maybe there are other cartels at work in S.F. strip clubs. People have long alleged that it was La Cosa Nostra.

Deja Vu brags about what it is affiliated with. The Deja Vu name helps bring in business.

I don't think Deja Vu owns much, it just has some sort of an affiliation deal.

Now La Cosa Nostra is different. They do try to stay in the shadows.

I'm glad you see girls sitting on laps. When they do that, DFKing is sometimes not that far away. But the usual Deja Vu approach is to prohibit such and drive all contact into the booths and back rooms, where the girl will be leading it, as you are obligated to pay.

In the front room it is a flexible give and take, as to what happens. In the back room, as you have indicated your agreement to a billing rate, the girl leads it.

SJG

Bonjour Vietnam youtube.com

Since starting this thread, I have had to revise my position about Deja Vu, and especially as it pertains to San Francisco, as I have received highly relevant information, and directly from Deja Vu.

Remember that my objection was that they had changed the clubs from free form front room interaction, to wanna dance places. This later type of club emphasizes girls selling you dances and the booths and the back room, and a larger house cut. And doing it that way, stoping front room interaction, destroys the GFE, it ruins the dynamics of the interactions.

So I have since learned alternate information which has forced me to re-evaluate the role of Deja Vu.

1. They run all the San Francisco clubs except Mitchell Brothers and Crazy Horse. This includes the no alcohol places, the alcohol places, and the food places. And this is consistent with what our S.F. expert Subraman has said.

2. Of course it does no good to run a club and have everyone ending up in jail the next day. So they do have to stay within local limits.

3. But it is not usually what goes on in the back rooms which might be seen as unlawful which gets a club into trouble. It is the attention drawn by what goes on in the front room, which though lawful, creates an impression about what is probably going on in the back rooms.

4. And then because of the Deja Vu brand name, they probably need to be extra careful about drawing this kind of attention to themselves.

5. I don't know if this applies anywhere except San Francisco, but in S.F. now most all of their clubs are run by Deja Vu, but they are unbranded. They do not publicly associate the Deja Vu name with the club.

6. So probably this allows the clubs to go further, particularly in the front room, and not have to worry any more than any other operator would about the kind of attention this might draw. So for those who have learned how to work it in strip clubs and how to treat the women right, front room GFE and the awesome back room encounters which come from this might not be out of the question.

7. The only Deja Vu branded S.F. club is Deja Vu Centerfolds. It is seen as running on a different business model than the other no alcohol clubs. Remember that if a club serves alcohol it is subject to far more rules and these can be enforced on a loser standard of proof then proof beyond a reasonable doubt. As of now, Centerfolds is the only branded one and the only one which runs on this more restrictive business model. My interpretation then is that the purpose of this club is simply to cater to out of town visitors who are looking for the Deja Vu brand name and do not know what looser strip clubs can be like.

8. Deja Vu claims that Mom and Pop Strip Clubs are usually not very professionally run, whereas theirs are. I see no reason to dispute this. So while Deja Vu clubs might not be dives, at least in San Francisco they would now be able to do what other operators do, as they have all but one of their clubs unbranded.

They of course cannot tell me if GFE goes on in their clubs, or ever say anything which admits to knowledge of all that often goes on in strip clubs.

Lap dancing started with lap sitting, and that was often conducive to GFE. If there are no special restrictions, then for someone who has learned how to make it happen, then probably it will often be happening. GFE is not illegal, or at least no one has been able to convict someone or close a club on the basis of that. But it does create an impression.

So at this point I no longer have any further dislike of Deja Vu. Running clubs more professionally is good.

Deja Vu has also told me that the strip club industry is dying, as they see the alcohol sales numbers sinking on a daily basis for the entire country. I interpret that this may be due to a slow economy. May be due to camming. It may be due to just attitudes turning against alcohol. These are my conjectures.

So while I have no objection now to Deja Vu, how do we find unbranded Deja Vu clubs in other places? Well we don't. And there might not even be any. I don't know how you would find them. But I no longer see Deja Vu as the menace which I once did.

SJG

Why Guys Like Asian Girls // Anna Akana youtube.com

Anyone who actually believes that Asian Girls are submissive, has obviously never known any. It is actually the Asian men who are deferential to the women. Asian Men deny this, but that is just because they don't even understand it. It comes from their family dynamics, dictated by culture and duty, in my opinion. Being respectful of women is important, but being completely deferential is something I do not go along with.

Instrumental Math Rock, Playlist youtube.com

DJV clubs suck ass because their managers are all faggots.

-->"1. They run all the San Francisco clubs except Mitchell Brothers and Crazy Horse. This includes the no alcohol places, the alcohol places, and the food places. And this is consistent with what our S.F. expert Subraman has said."

Yes indeed. If you go to the clubs enough, it is glaringly obvious -- the way they round-robin the managers between clubs, the advertisements in the bathroom at one club, for all the other clubs, the fact that managers at one club will tell you outright that they all ultimately report to one high-level guy, the fact that I reported that managers from ALL the clubs had christmas dinner together at Penthouse, etc.

I don't really agree with your spin on the rest, SJG. Perhaps the bottom line, TL;DR for me is this: in the year 2000, San Francisco was arguably the best SC city in the country, with arguably not one but two of the top-10 clubs in the country, including one club that put together an experience that may never be matched by any other, ever. Today, I don't disagree with the guys here that SF is one of the worst cities for PLs, and a huge reason for this is Deja Vu. Period, end of story. (end of TL;DR)

In fact, I think you'll find none of the deja vu clubs really offer the experience that you describe you're looking for; if anything, they'd be easier to pull off in the two non-DJV clubs. Although making out "in the front room" is banned at every SC I know of. However, some under-the-table groping in the front room is possible to accomplish at Centerfolds and the alcohol clubs. For me, the smaller clubs are not interesting due to the disastrous quality of dancers, and NCT is not interesting due to the fact that it's a den of ROBs (with management in collusion according to PL TRs, a pretty unique situation)

Wow.

Glad I've never been to a DJV... or San Francisco. I would have spent all my free time reading this thread instead of getting dances....

As for front room groping, it IS possible at even my bikini/topless only "no extras" club. The last seat at the bar is shielded on the side by a post, and if a dancer sits on your lap with her back to that post and is willing, you have free access to her butt and pussy. I will add even my regulars would not let me do that, but a few newbies have.

For anyone who knows my club, that seat is by the dancer's DR door, and there is also an inner door on the right just past it. When girls are going in and out a lot, it's not uncommon to see bare breasts in the DR part as that seat is the perfect angle!

The front room is less patrolled than the lap dance areas. Is this not the case most places? I always that that was the bug or undocumented feature of the front room. Here LDs are to the letter of the law and enforced. Front room not so much.

I think the outcome where we see non-regional ownership of business is not as good and regional ownership. Many of these national and global corporations are not so good for local communities. I don't think I would care for a Deju Vu club, either.

Thank you all for that thoughtful commentary. The wilder SF Clubs were Pink Diamonds and Market St. Cinema, and they are gone now.

So of course clubs with alcohol have to be more restrictive. So while I have rescinded my specific objection to Deja Vu, I still do have concerns.

So Centerfolds is known as a wanna dance club, a clip joint.

So that leaves the 3 no alcohol small clubs on Broadway, and then the much larger New Century in the tenderloin.

So I notice that New Century never opens before 4pm and on some days not before 7pm. That right there suggests that it is not doing well. Of course yelp people don't like it, but I take that as a positive.

Then on Broadway:

1. Little Darlings
2. Roaring 20's
3. Garden of Eden.

All very small.

1. Little Darlings looks the most black, and they look good, and they play hip hop. So this looks the most interesting.

2. Roaring 20's looks also fairly black. Yelp people kept saying that the dancers were "prostitutes". So it looks good.

3. Garden of Eden might be the same. But I had seen signs and stuff on their web site talking about 3 levels of dance pricing, Bikini, Topless, and Nude 60$.

Well that stinks. What that does is limit the quality of the interactions, kill the front room fun.

And I see in pictures a roped off area of couches. That is probably for the lowest level of dances. Stupid!

So rule Garden of Eden out. Deja Vu might try different approaches and run the clubs against each other.

And of course the objective in any of these places is not to economize. No, the objective is to get your girl switched from trying to sell you dances, as that is a chumps game, to having fun with you while sitting on your lap.

You still feed her money. And there should be no house cut. Best is if it goes to an intense makeout session with DFK + FOV/FIV. Then you invite her to the back room, or to see you outside.

Seems to me that it would be very hard to regulate this in largely black places. But some of these places might only have bar stool height chairs, not the low chairs conducive to lap sitting.

So hard to say at this point. Not sure is San Francisco really has much to recommend it strip club wise or not. And as Deja Vu is running it, it will still be meticulously thought out. This may or may not be good.

People on TJAmigos do not like Deja Vu TJ.

SJG

I do still think it is a big step forward that Deja Vu de-branded all of its SF Clubs except Centerfolds. This may not totally solve the problems, but it is a huge step forward.

And then also, if as they say on yelp that Roaring 20's and especially New Century are full of Rip Off Bitches, then Deja Vu or no, there are no rules which are being enforced.

So with that as the case, then front room makeout sessions and phenomenal back room sessions should be perfectly available, just as they are in the other dives and shit holes scattered across our great nation.

No rules, no regulations, that is always the best. Wanna Dance places are the kind to avoid.

SJG

Stones - Hand of Fate youtube.com

-->"The front room is less patrolled than the lap dance areas. Is this not the case most places?"

I'm not sure I'd say the front room is "less patrolled", as much as it is that, with her sitting on your lap and a table in front of you, it's pretty easy to reach down and play with her nethers while being shielded from both the view of the bouncers and the ceiling-mounted cameras. I've gotten my finger two-knuckles deep in any number of strippers assholes, right there out on the floor. True story.

That said, my possibly-wrong impression is that he wants to LK and DFK right on the floor, and it is plain not possible without serious repercussions. Not possible in the lapdance area either. Definitely possible in the VIP

I'm speaking only about our local clubs, of course. your city might be different

SJG:

Those little clubs you're enamored with -- seriously, if you're okay with ghetto-acting girls who are 3s and 4s (and if you're lucky, an occasional 5 might come bouncing by), then it might be worth a look. Definitely not in my wheelhouse. The girls DO get better at night, and in addition, sometimes pretty girls get their start at these clubs ... they usually don't stay longer than a few days before realizing where they are and moving to a better club, but if you're lucky on the timing, you can get a Centerfold's quality girl there.

-->"Not sure is San Francisco really has much to recommend it strip club wise or not".

Yep. And if you'd been to all those clubs before DJV rolled in, you'd have experienced the opposite, with some amazing fun possible. That said, DJV isn't to blame for all the problems -- MBOT, the unique and possibly best club in the US ever, died due to the perfect storm of a brutal ex-stripper lawsuit judgement, plus Jim died and left the club in the hands of his clueless progeny, just when they needed his leadership most. DJV killed all the other clubs, though, with industrialized dumbed-down and inept management across the board

Subra, I appreciate what you are saying.

As I see it, the issue is to get back to dives and shitholes, instead of these tightly regulated places which run on their name recognition and legacy.

Now Jim and Artie were rebels. But then Jim shot Artie dead.

Cannot recommend this strongly enough: amazon.com

So otherwise, its basically dives versus clip joints.

That the women in dives might not be as nice looking, I don't worry about. I like to pick a girl myself, and all I want is a girl I like. This depends on more than just looks.

And then also, once the service style is right, then the looks issue, and the cost issues seem to take care of themselves. I know this from our Mexican Bar underground circuit.

So what is best in the clubs is to just let the girls do it their way. But Deja Vu is a think tank, first and foremost. They have perfected the wanna dance clip joint approach, and most PL's are too stupid to realize what is wrong about this.

As far as front room intense DFKing, well as is widely written, and confirmed, and especially on black strip clubs dot net, at the most extreme clubs, the girls don't really give you much choice, jumping on to your lap and licking your neck and nibbling on your ear. And then once at the Sunnyvale Brass Rail, a black hooker there under the cover of the wet t-shirt contest was coming very close to doing that to me. Certainly she was pushing herself up against me from her crotch up to her chin.

This is the kind of stuff which goes on when the girls can do it their own way, and when they are competitive, and when they are offering FS.

So is it possible for Deja Vu to enforce all their rules in a place which looks mostly black and plays hip hop music, like Little Darlings? And isn't this probably why the unbranded most of San Francisco.

And when Yelp says that 20's and New Century are full of prostitutes and ROB's, that tends to suggest that DV has given up on enforcing rules.

So this is the way I think it needs to go.

At our underground circuit, there are still rules. But if girl wants you for immediate OTC, open tongue kissing and DFKing won't be refused. It shows her that you like her, and it helps seal the deal..

Letting the girls do it their own way, that is best. Girl looks and costs issues resolve themselves, as business gets good.

So what I see in DV unbranding most of their SF places, except one, is good.

So if they are still trying to force all action into the back rooms, then that sucks. It is not a cost issue, it is an interrelation issue, because the girl is not opening up to you.

In AMPs, always the thing which guarantees a phenomenal session is to use front room flirting and then get her DFKing immediately upon going into the session room.

They do everything possible to stop front room AMP kissing, in Santa Clara County. Maybe in San Francisco though it would be possible.

Yeah, DV came in and ruined San Francisco. But, now unbranding their clubs, is that still fair to say?

MBOT's hours Mon – Wed • 12:30 pm – 2:30 am Thurs – Sat • 12:30 pm – 3:30 am Sun • 6:30 pm – 1:30 am

New Century Hours Open Sun-Wed: 7pm to 5am • Thurs to Sat: 4pm to 5am

Little Darlings Hours Sun: 6pm-2am Mon:6pm-2am Tues: 6pm-2am Wed: 6pm-2am Thurs: 6pm-2am Fri: 6pm-2am Sat: 6pm-2am

Roaring 20's Hours Effective Sunday 3/6/16: Sun: 6pm-2am Mon: 6pm-2am Tues: 6pm-2am Wed: 6pm-2am Thurs: 6pm-2am Fri: 6pm-2am Sat: 6pm-2am

Garden of Eden hours, a little bit more Sun: 3pm - 2am Mon: 3pm - 2am Tues: 3pm - 2am Wed: 3pm - 2am Thurs: 3pm - 2am Fri: 3pm - 2am Sat: 3pm - 2am

But still, the DV places have less daytime hours than MBOT. To me this suggests that they are not doing that well.

I don't see how you can tell a group of black dancers struggling to make money, "Wanna Dance only", and expect them to listen.

SJG

Girl on Girl youtube.com

Totally different when it is f2f and you potentially have access to one or both of the girls. :) The old San Francisco way, before booths and back rooms, and before stage side sitting and tiping. Nothing for the girls to do after the stage set except to go jump on laps.

Veruca Salt -- Shimmer Like A Girl youtube.com

-->"But still, the DV places have less daytime hours than MBOT. To me this suggests that they are not doing that well."

Yeah, as a general rule, I think those little places struggle, there's no way they could support a dayshift with the "talent" they have. I have a feeling these clubs run on tourists looking to get the Barbary Coast experience and who don't know better, and drunk college guys who don't know better. Certainly, none of the SF-local PL crowd go to these places.

Subraman for the win!

Perhaps the bottom line, TL;DR for me is this: in the year 2000, San Francisco was arguably the best SC city in the country, with arguably not one but two of the top-10 clubs in the country, including one club that put together an experience that may never be matched by any other, ever. Today, I don't disagree with the guys here that SF is one of the worst cities for PLs, and a huge reason for this is Deja Vu. Period, end of story. (end of TL;DR)

SF Sucks now. DJV killed it. (Mic drop).

Well, beyond a point it will have to be after some major things finish up here, so that I can then be untethered and be in S.F. and these clubs.

I think what caters to tourists is the branded "Deja Vu Centerfolds", but also MBOT because of its history.

I don't think a black hip hop club like Little Darlings caters to frat boys or tourists.

And also, dives usually are small clubs with a lower grade of dancer looks wise. Same way, judged by reviews, for the rest of the country. But I say that is the place to start rebuilding fun strip clubs.

So a branded Deja Vu club is shit.

How about an unbranded Deja Vu club? Is it better or worse than a mom and pop strip club? They say that mom and pop strip clubs are not run very professionally.

But as I see it, letting the girls do stuff their own way is best. And where I have seen the most of this is in mom and pop strip clubs, our underground circuit. In those places they pretty much have to let dancers do what they want, as they don't have much of a whip to crack.

The girls in the Mex Bar circuit, they are all trying to set up OTC's. And if it were in a looser metro, they'd be doing whatever you wanted front room and parking lot as well. Those are the kind of girls I like!

Some of what has happened in San Francisco is also due to the Mafia taking over. Don't know how this intersects with Deja Vu. Jim and Artie were always able to stand up to the Mafia, because they were in this based on principle, not just on money.

And thanks again to Subraman for sharing with us his hard earned experiences.

SJG

Ambient Music for Study • Work • Focus • Concentration • 1 Hour youtube.com

I'm not so sure, SJG ... I agree that the branding attracts people. But, it's a time-honored tradition both among tourists and CA residents who don't live in SF, to do the barbary coast, and those little clubs feel more barbary coast than Centerfolds, several blocks down broadway outside anything else interesting. Those little clubs are barbaray coast, and you can even buy a "$40 gets you into all 5 clubs" pass. Hell, when I first moved here to CA, and made my first friends in the south bay, they took me to hit the strip clubs in SF, and we went to ... the little broadway clubs!

Obviously, on the other side of town, MBOT is also a tourist draw. It used to draw busload after busload of Japanese tourists, haven't been there enough to know if it still does

So it sounds like we are getting shafted no matter what, thanks to Deja Vu.

Oh well, it will still be a while, but when I am there I will try those 3 Broadway places, and then New Century first.

MBOT so so, and Crazyhorse seems to be a jack shack.

I'll read reviews and all. But maybe San Francisco is a write off. It has great AMPs though, so much better than south bay. Girls look better, dress and behave sluttier, and that makes it more likely to be GFE and mind blowing.

Thanks SJG

I think this is the easiest way to look at it. At these no alcohol places:

1. Little Darlings
2. Garden of Eden
3. Roaring 20's
4. New Century

where are they most likely to sit on your lap, and do they get nuzzling cheek to cheek close when they do it?

That is the easiest situation from which to get a front room makeout session going and let a girl get softened up and let her get used to front room money instead of booth and back room money.

SJG

Chillout Music for Study • Work • Focus • Concentration • 1 Hour youtube.com

Girl on Girl in porno movies I just FF past. But in real life, where one has potential access to the girls, I have found it to be a powerful turn on. By open tongue kissing they are showing that they control the erotic.

They might still do it at S.F. New Century. It goes back to before they had stage sitting and tipping. So it was the girl's set, ending with a second girl coming on to the stage, then followed by both girls jumping on to laps. :)

SJG

-->"1. Little Darlings 2. Garden of Eden 3. Roaring 20's 4. New Century

where are they most likely to sit on your lap, and do they get nuzzling cheek to cheek close when they do it?"

So, for me, I don't know the answer because: 1-3: I've never found girls here who I'd let sit on my lap, for any price. 4: I keep out of NCT because it's a den of ROBs ... not just the girls, but the management and staff. Aside from not being interested in subjecting myself to it, I'm not interested in supporting a club that rips off so many PLs.

That said, SJG, you've lowered the bar a whole lot. There's NO club I know of where you can get away with DFK out on the floor. However, if you lower the bar to "sit on your lap, and do they get nuzzling cheek to cheek close when they do it", you can get that most anywhere, and at places like Gold Club and Hustler, and to a lesser extent Penthouse and Condor, you can score that with an actual pretty girl. Of course, those are all alcohol places, but in every single one of them I've gotten a hot stripper on my lap, and flirting/nuzzling/groping.

Subraman, our San Francisco expert, wrote:

"1-3: I've never found girls here who I'd let sit on my lap, for any price."

Well, I believe that in most of the real dives written about on TUSCL you would find the same sorts of girls. These are the ones who work in the FS-ITC, and aggressively promoted, places. FS-ITC places with hotter looking girls are still a rarity. Like probably that ATL Follies is a rarity.

For me this is not so much of an issue because I just want one girl at a time that I actually like, and this is not only looks, and I am happy to approach the girl myself.

" 4: I keep out of NCT because it's a den of ROBs ... not just the girls, but the management and staff. Aside from not being interested in subjecting myself to it, I'm not interested in supporting a club that rips off so many PLs."

Well, nothing wrong about using good judgment there. But that also suggests though that Deja Vu has given up on enforcing it's business model rules there too, forcing action into the back rooms, making it a wanna dance place. I know yelp people always talk about ROB's, but I don't consider yelp reviews something to take at face value. I doubt that the New Century dancers are harder to deal with than street hookers, probably the same. When I have engaged with street hookers, they and I have always gotten along.

"That said, SJG, you've lowered the bar a whole lot. There's NO club I know of where you can get away with DFK out on the floor."

Well, I know first hand that it used to not be that restrictive in San Francisco. When girls are finishing their stage sets with open tongue kissing, it makes for a very conducive environment.

In our underground Mexican Bar circuit, even when that was at it's best, that was supposedly prohibited. But if a girl likes you and want's OTC, it can happen. Same in our Sunnyvale no touching clubs, if a girl wants to set up OTC with you, it can happen. And then in San Mateo's now defunct Club-Ante, some girls did quite good DFKing with anyone who gives them $1, stage side or off stage, and this has happened at the Sunnyvale Hip Hugger too.

Across the country, starting with black clubs, it is written about as being standard in the places which mostly do FS-ITC. Then TUSCL members have affirmed that at the mixed race dives, all the girls do it the same way. Sitting on your lap and licking your neck and nibbling on your ear, leaves very little doubt as to what they want to happen.

And then our expert womanizer Jestrite50 has explained that at some clubs and with some girls it is no problem. He accepts nothing less, and those are the ones you keep going back to.

So if these unbranded Deja Vu places in San Francisco are full of ROB's, then that means that Deja Vu has given up on enforcing any rules. So I assume then that in such an environment, front room makeout sessions are not going to be a problem. Just have to learn how to approach the girls in the right way.

"However, if you lower the bar to "sit on your lap, and do they get nuzzling cheek to cheek close when they do it", you can get that most anywhere, and at places like Gold Club and Hustler, and to a lesser extent Penthouse and Condor, you can score that with an actual pretty girl. Of course, those are all alcohol places, but in every single one of them I've gotten a hot stripper on my lap, and flirting/nuzzling/groping."

Well, going from flirting/nuzzling/groping with a girl on your lap, to DFKing, is not very difficult. I would say it mostly comes down to how you are talking to her, to let her get softened up.

And then the alcohol clubs are still subject to more regulations and a lower bar for closure than a non-alcohol club. So non-alcohol clubs are even less likely to feel a need to impose restrictions. I think people find what they want to find.

Thank you Subraman for sharing your hard earned expertise. I want S.F. to have real dives, not the branded Deja Vu style of clip joints.

SJG

Dark Ambient Music Mix youtube.com

Still can't get these videos to play: theinterrobang.com Do they work for others?

Every part of the country is different but "Midwest country girls" aren't afraid to sit on your lap and and DFK. It just comes natural to them. In SF maybe they are "stuck up" and want to be paid for people looking at them. I was in a club in Michigan Tuesday night and the girl gave me a hand job under the table.

In San Francisco and South Bay, girls are not reluctant to DFK, and girls are not stuck up.

In South Bay its the local ordinances and LE pressure. In San Francisco, it has been the Deja Vu management, but that may have changed. Sounds like with these new unbranded Deja Vu clubs, there can't be too many rules. And then it is just that lots of guys treat the girls as prostitutes and don't verbally come on to them or treat them in a manner which is conducive to DFKing.

There are in these places girls who, given the chance will do lots and lots of DFKing. And then sometimes they just make the chance and do it anyway. And they are good at it. Usually what they really want is an outside date. Doing their shift they get themselves heated up just as much as they do the guys.

SJG

^^^^ you need to stfu!