Which way is best

I usually confirm upfront as to what service I am paying for whether ITC or OTC. I would like to say I always confirm but I have let the little head do the thinking a few times and whenever he did the thinking 75% of the time things did not go the way I was hoping they would.

I've never negotiated services for OTC; I just like to see what happens. I know there will be sex if we get a room, but after that I just wing it.

But if you have a specific menu, yes you should be up front. With escorts that's the usual. They either tell you up front what the "rules" are, and what services will cost. In my limited experience with dancer OTC, they usually wing it too. If they "like" you, you'll get more and if they just want your money, they'll try and rush it along as fast as they can.

"Which way is best?"

In, out, repeat as long as possible.

As for OTC, yes, make sure both of you know exactly what is expected before she gets the cash.

Since it sounds like you have pretty specific requirements, I'd prenegotiate.

Pre negotiate and put it in writing and sign on the dotted line. Then if she doesnt perform you can let your atorney take care of her..kidding. always better to be clear up front

You could I suppose, but I don't usually get that specific. Keep in mind that many of these girls are operating under the delusion that they are not prostitutes, so getting that graphic in the pre-event negotiations may be off-putting for some of them. But if I had your very specific needs then I might feel differently. About the only mood killer for me is a cover for a BJ, but I rarely encounter an OTC girl who insists on that anymore anyway, so I'm willing to roll the dice.

I only do OTC with a girl I already know well enough to not care about specific services. When I was seeing escorts, it paid to have a clear understanding of what was on the menu. I used to get excited by the anticipation of all the things I knew I'd be doing with that hot girl in the pics within minutes of meeting her. But eventually, I got tired of the predictability and the routine.

I don't want OTC with strippers to be like that. It's like with getting dances in the club. If you start my asking what her rules are, you can limit what's possible. If you play it by ear, she may wind up doing things she never would have agreed to beforehand. No fun without a little risk.

I've never done it, but that won't stop me from offering an opinion ;-)

All girls, including strippers, are different. Some (like your DS) will give a great experience without pre-negotiations. I would attribute this to an adventurous attitude and I think you are right when you say she would have been put off by negotiations. Other girls will prefer to know what they're getting into ahead of time. If you're looking for a real GFE, you're probably going to be disappointed unless she is a really great actress. Bottom line, you're just going have to read the girl and make allowances for potential stripper shit.

I agree with Rick and Chandler.

Why bother to ask? Just tie her up and do whatever you want to her.

Yes, I'm kidding. But I've been lucky enough to actually find girls who like that sort of thing. :)

If he wants to negotiate up front I'm fine with that, but I always over deliver. I like to blow his mind as well as his c***. But I prefer a guy who just trusts me to take him wherever I think he needs to go - I'm kind of an artist in that way. I also love to do him a second time when he's not expecting that.

Cash is King. It's your money. You make the rules.

If she doesn't agree. No cash for her. Pretty easy. And if it's talked about up front, neither one of you is disappointed or feel taken advantage of...

You get what you want (specific kind of services) and she gets what she wants (your cash).

I know I'm of the minority side here but negotiating a price takes the fun out of it for me.

Chandlier echoed what I said as well. I've never done an OTC with a dancer I didn't already know, so being with her was more important than any particular sexual act. With escorts, it just sex.

"... If you want sideboards, roof rack, and the tow package, would you discuss it before or after at the vehicle was delivered ..."

LOL

Seems to me like a “business vs pleasure” sorta dilemma.

I guess it depends whether the $$$ (business-side) is more important than being with her (pleasure-side of the equation).

If it’s just biz; then def negotiate upfront – if it’s more personal for you then probably best to bite the bullet (would you tell a civvi all the specifics you want ahead of time?).

I am probably in the minority on this, but I never discuss the details upfront (whether it is ITC, asking for OTC, escorts, backpage, or whatever) for several reasons:

1. I want it to seem more like a date and the cash is my way of paying for her time as my way of "helping her out"
2. I am more comfortable just going for what I want. If she says she's not in to this or that, so be it. If it is too restrictive for me, I'll be one and done and I TOFTT, I guess.
3. I am protected in case of an LE sting as I NEVER offered cash for sex acts, just cash for time.

Back in the craigslist days, I am pretty sure that I avoided an LE sting this way once as she (I believe the UC LE) kept insisting that I agree to an act for cash to which I replied repeatedly, "No, no, no, you misunderstand me, I just want to share 30 minutes for $xxx. Maybe we will watch TV -- I will let you push the buttons on the remote." When she didn't agree to my offer the first time, I knew it was LE and walked away. Really? What bona fide escort wouldn't agree to 30 minutes for $xxx cash??

In all my years of mongering, I have only been disappointed once. She agreed to time for cash and then wouldn't give fs because she was OTR. She made up for it in other ways when I expressed my disappointment and, ultimately, gave me a discount -- so all was good.

Yeah I want Carolynne!

Interesting split of opinion.

Having read all the answers to date I think I'm inclined to go with ATACdawg's middle of the road position. If she is very inexperienced like the DS and likely to get scared by specifics, or is a very experienced and slutty fav who may do more than I might ask, then just go with the flow. But if she's somewhere in between then ask for specifics to avoid disappointment. That's not a totally satisfying answer since its may call for a split second case by case decision, but I think that's where I come out.

I don't know the girl that I have in mind well enough yet to decide. She gives great dances and seems very permissive. But she says she hasn't done this before. While that's likely a lie, she may not have done OTC very much.

So I think it'll be a game time decision.

JS, you have pretty specific and somewhat extreme requirements ...if anything other than meeting those requirements would make the time and money spent a complete waste, then I don't see how you have much choice other than to negotiate at least some of it, or risk being disappointed. If you don't mind disappointed, than less specific is always the way to go.

I don't negotiate much at all. I specify that I'd like at least a HJ, and negotiate a rock bottom price for it. Then, whatever happens, happens. Sometimes, the girls stick to just the HJ, and since I love HJs, no problem. Often, the girls overdeliver -- one girl let me fuck her in the ass, even! -- but I still pay my rock bottom HJ-negotiated price. Holy fuck do I sound like a scumbag.

JS69, have you started this thread just because you want me to reply? Are you like Iago, baiting people, and giving me something to do in my Mom's basement besides jerking off?

" with my DS I did the exact opposite. I negotiated very little of the details, and I ended up with the most amazing stripper experience and relationship of my life. Moreover, I have no doubt that if I had tried to negotiate with her upfront about the specifics that are important to me, I would have scared her and walked away with nothing. "

I think things have gone so well with you DS because she can tell that you really like her, and because you treat her like a civilian, or at least like a Sugar Baby.

I read this article when I first registered and before the people's names meant anything to me. But I always remembered the title. If anyone ever had any doubt as to whether these girls like to deliver on OTC dates, this should remove it.

How I Popped My OTC Cherry tuscl.net

" After a nice dinner, we take a short walk to my hotel, holding hands and stopping to kiss along the way. In my room, we brush our teeth, kiss for a short while, and the show begins. To make a long story somewhat shorter, in the next half hour or so we did everything sexual that I would ever want to do to a woman. I filled every hole she had that I was interested in, in every position that I wanted, and I came when it was over where and how I wanted. There was absolutely nothing I wanted to do that she did not fully and enthusiastically allow. In summary, it was fucking awesome. "

Now I'm not sure how many different girls you are writing about here, but no matter what you get them to agree to, if they want to hold back they will. Likewise, even if they don't agree to anything, if they want to deliver, then they will

After I first joined TUSCL and people were talking about DFKing, I did an extensive search of stripperweb for discussions of it. They are indignant about it when it happens in strip clubs, front room or back room. But when they talk about escort sessions, they all do it. It is expected.

Where I live the strip clubs are really strict, no touching, no flashing, no private spaces. But as I sit here in my Mom's basement and type this in, there are girls in those clubs setting up OTC's where they will deliver really nicely.

You wrote before of these Stripper Systems where they are able to rake in more money for less. Yes, they do things like this, because they can get away with it and because most men treat them like hookers, or like vending machines.

But if they want to deliver they will. If we had a physical set up like the TJ Hong Kong Bar, and if they hired and tried to maintain all the girls that they could, then I am sure that the norm would be front room makeout sessions followed by escort grade GFE sessions in the hotel rooms. And a good portion of these hotel sessions would go on for a few hours with bathing in the sauna and doing multiple rounds.

If you want to kiss a girl, no reason to talk about it, just do it. If this is a new girl you are breaking in, and if you'd of been kissing her when you first met her, then that would have settled it. She would have no doubt in her mind as to your really liking her. You faced the potentiality of rejection in order to let her know.

These 'extras' clubs are clip joints because lots of guys don't know the difference, and because the management knows that even though they may do FS, there is still less chance of getting busted than if they advertise that fact by just letting things go as they will.

If they hire as many girls as they can, then they don't have much of a whip to crack and the girls will just do whatever they want. ( Baby Dolls in Dallas, like this? ) But if they just hire the minimum then they can make the girls listen.

SJG

SJG, while your post is too long, it is more articulate than usual. Plus, I'm glad to see that you finally will admit that you live in your moms basement.

I am actually inclined to agree with SJG that there is no need to ask about kissing. In fact, if I ask it all, I think I might just need to ask for a BBBJ. If she does that sans condom then the other stuff will probably follow.

Subra, i'm a little surprised that you find my expectations extreme. Frankly, I think my expectations are pretty mainstream and being willing to settle for just a hand job sets an awfully low minimal expectation. However, I don't think you can separate the reasonableness of one's expectations with the amount of money that one is willing to pay. I don't mind paying somewhat above average market rates if the girl is well above average looking, and if I get most or all of what I want. Plus, if she is good, it's very likely that I will be a repeat customer whenever I get back to her town.

I agree with chandler I get to know the girl first. I don't want to be disappointed. I never discuss prices because I don't pay for sex. I underwrite the GFE when I get to know the girl. I start front room in the club talking to her about SEX. I ask her what she likes I tell her what I like, positions , oral, swallow etc. We work all that out BEFORE WE EVER DISCUSS going to dinner , going to her place, going to my hotel etc. Treat her like a civie not like a whore and things will work out. If not it hasn't cost you much.

Jestrite, although you did it with about 100,000 less words, I think you are basically advocating what SJG has said all along. I can see the advantages to that approach if it worked. My concern would be they I'm not sure it would work most of the time. Nevertheless I may try it out a few times to see how it goes.

I will only speak from personal experience. The 2-3 times I got too specific and tried to negotiate all details up front with an 8+, I was told "I don't do that in VIP". The other multiple times that I had a good vibe and went with my instincts, I have been successful.... With one exception who goes by the name of a young cat @ Follies. I would probably have a different perspective if I was batting for percentage and wasn't so picky on the level of girl I take to VIP. I believe this is consistent to your DS experience and pretty much what several of the other guys are saying too....

Have her sign a LegalZoom contract....

legalzoom.com

I just left a club 45 minutes ago. I met a new dancer there. We had a drink together we talked small talk. I could see she had beautiful boobs. I complemented her on her beautiful boobs. I told her I would love to fuck them. I told her I was a pleaser. She asked me what I did to please my woman. I told her how I loved licking pussy. I told her just how I did it. She said she was a pleaser too. I asked her how she pleases her man. She told me how she loves to suck dick. I asked her if she swallows. She said yes every last drop. We had a make out session right at the bar. She said she lives alone no kids no BF. She needed a little cash. I gave her $50 as a gift so she would remember me. We exchanged numbers. We are on our way to a true GFE. Try it sometime it works for me.

"Subra, i'm a little surprised that you find my expectations extreme."

You know, one man's extreme is another's normal, so no worries. To me, BBBJCIM (WS?) is going pretty deep

"being willing to settle for just a hand job"

I don't SETTLE for a handjob. I fucking love handjobs -- which is why, if I'm going to seek for-pay play outside the strip clubs, I like happy ending massage better than escorts. In addition, I'm very much focused on paying as little as possible, and preferably nothing, for as much as I can get. It doesn't happen often that a handjob is all that's delivered (although again, I'm perfectly happy with it); but normally, I pay what I think are obscenely low prices (at least in this area, where prices are very inflated) because we've negotiated something pretty minimal. The other thing I do to stack the deck is, I only OTC with women I've seen ITC for a little while, and my OTCs always involve lots of drinking ... between the familiarity and the drinking, it's handjob prices for FS/Greek/etc activities. That makes me happy :)

Everything else in this thread faded to gray when I read Carolynne's post. What an amazing woman and lover you must be!

Very interesting. For what must surely be the first time in human history, a significant portion (not sure if it's 50% but it's at least in that neighborhood) of posters agree with SJG on a subject involving sex and women. SJG says don't expressly ask for sex up front but treat them right and the sex will follow if it's meant to be. And many of you now say something kinda close to the same thing.

It's gonna take me a while to adjust to this paradigm shift.

"Which way is best?"

Why, my way, of course.

If there were more strippers like Carolynne, I'd tend more towards SJG's approach. Not as far, of course, since I'm paying and want to get my money's worth, but I'd definitely tone my approach back.

As it stands, though, it depends on how I read the girl. If I think she's a "get it done" kind of girl, I'll go with the direct approach. "Spit, or swallow?" If she's like my ATF, or the MILF, I'll take it slower. Both of those have paid off big time.

"Very interesting. For what must surely be the first time in human history, a significant portion (not sure if it's 50% but it's at least in that neighborhood) of posters agree with SJG"

JS, You're taking a lot of license in that interpretation :) We're not "agreeing with SJG"... I think the more accurate interpretation is: we all have notions based on actually doing this, that less detailed negotiation is better than more. And it just so happens, the imaginary world SJG has built up by reading other people's posts, happens to coincide with the majority. This is a case of: even a broken clock is right twice a day

The strip clubs in Santa Clara County are no touching, so most of the time nothing happens in the club. Most of the time. But once in a while there is a girl who doesn't care if she gets fired, and she wants to set up OTC's. DFKing is the best way to do that. If anyone, living in an imaginary world, doubts that girls like kissing, I wish you could have been there for some of this.

SJG was married for a long time. It was painful, but ending it properly and ethically were important. So the sorts of infidelities engaged in were limited, no OTC.

So given that strip clubs were usually no touching, "the imaginary world SJG has built up by reading other people's posts" was formed by experiences in the AMPs of three counties. In such places GFE is not on the menu. And besides, you can't really make it go that way by negotiation. It doesn't work this way. Lots of idiots end up lying on the massage table naked and negotiating for 'extras'. I on the other hand am not shy with girls, and I know that treating them like hookers is stupid. Maybe when I was much much younger I was shy, but once I learned about AMPs I learned not to be shy at all. I treat them like civilians and just make it happen. Talk eye contact can be used to prepare them. Best to start this even before getting into the room with her. They don't always let go completely, but often enough, and sometimes not expecting such, they do completely let go. They still get paid the usual amount, but the experience is mind blowing for both parties.

SJG

So okay: long way of saying, your views of getting a stripper OTC are not based on your actual experience of getting strippers OTC. It's based on reading things, and also going to AMPs, and also occasionally going to a strip club and not actually getting OTC. And so no actual direct experience of what works or doesn't when it comes to strippers and OTC. That's all I was saying, and we both agree on it.

@Rechtaberei wrote,

"If you want sideboards, roof rack, and the tow package, would you discuss it before or after the vehicle was delivered?"

Yes, but if you want a girl to open up to you, then you can't think that way. Her every self preserving instinct is to be on guard for guys who will treat her in the way you describe. Makes zero difference if there is money involved or not.

@Rickdugan wrote,

"Keep in mind that many of these girls are operating under the delusion that they are not prostitutes, so getting that graphic in the pre-event negotiations may be off-putting for some of them."

Yes I agree with this, at least in part. Whether you see her as a prostitute or not, there is never any reason to treat her as one. She will be able to do much more with you if you do not treat her that way.

@chandler wrote:

"I only do OTC with a girl I already know well enough to not care about specific services. When I was seeing escorts, it paid to have a clear understanding of what was on the menu. I used to get excited by the anticipation of all the things I knew I'd be doing with that hot girl in the pics within minutes of meeting her. But eventually, I got tired of the predictability and the routine.

I don't want OTC with strippers to be like that. It's like with getting dances in the club. If you start my asking what her rules are, you can limit what's possible. If you play it by ear, she may wind up doing things she never would have agreed to beforehand. No fun without a little risk."

Yes, I strongly agree with this. The whole benefit of strip clubs over lingerie modeling, adult entertainment, or AMPs, is that you can get friendly with the girl before doing anything with her which requires making any kind of an agreement. So you can just pay her as she comes and sits with you, and see what happens.

But you lose this when you let her sell you dances, or when you start yourself treating her like a prostitute.

If she feels comfortable, she will start opening up to you. And of course, the more she can open up right there where you were originally sitting, the better.

But just "buying dances" is a chumps game.

@warhawks wrote,

"Cash is King. It's your money. You make the rules."

What it really is is that money gives you power. But the way you exercise that is in deciding if you will continue to see her. It could mean deciding about a second date, or just deciding if you want to keep feeding her money as she sits with you. Making money is why she is in the club and all dolled up. But money alone is not going to get her to do anything she otherwise wouldn't want to. And so it will never work to try and force her to go GFE with you. And besides, a guy who really has power doesn't need to do stuff like that. He knows that if he picks a girl, the overwhelming odds are that she'll give him everything he has ever wanted.

@JS69, it sounds from your other thread that what actually did happen was a kind of middle of the road approach. Lots of talking about sex, a transparently obvious attempt to negotiate with her, but no physical friendliness.

I'm glad things worked out though.

@Subraman, What to do with you? The girls who danced in the underground "Bikini Shows" in SJ's Mexican Bars were either untamable trouble makers from the Sunnyvale Clubs, or they were of this group of Beloved Latina Escorts. Either way, they could be extremely friendly. And then there are also other reasons, ones I should not go into, that I became familiar with there OTC realm.

And then it can be the same way in many San Francisco clubs, if the girl likes you and if you don't treat her like a prostitute, ask for extras, or otherwise let her sell you dances, and if the place is not set up as a clip joint.

Everything I am telling you is indeed based on direct personal experience. It's just that some of us learn from our experiences, while others do not.

SJG