In your opinion how likely is it that a stripper would find a (single) man who regularly pays for LDs, extras, or conversation attractive?
Would his spending habbits enhance or decrease his attractiveness to strippers or have no effect?
What traits do women find attractive anyway? Is there a conflict between these traits and being a single strip club regular?
Let's face it: some strippers are pretty attractive.
I find RL's posts almost as incomprehensable as they are pointless. I think there is something to my theory that davids and RL are the same person.
davids, there's only so many ways you can write "I'm right, and you're wrong" before it gets dull. Why not tell us some of your success stories? That might actually do a better job of selling what you're trying to preach or be entertaining to read at least. Heck, tell us about some of your missteps and what you learned from them, if you have the balls to admit that you fail from time to time.
I don't come here to be educated. I come here to be entertained.
OK Davids; your smarter than everyone except RL. Woo Hooo!! I read all the time. I like auto biographies in particular. I enjoy reading people's life stories and learning something about how others have coped with life situations that we all go through every day. I don't happen to put much faith in authors who spend time telling me how I SHOULD be doing things and, since I'm not in school anymore, I have absolutely no use for fact laden statistical mumbo jumbo on any topic. I'm too busy enjoying my life to bother reading someone else's opinions about how I should be living it. Do whatever you like, I don't care. I just resent, as the rest of us here do, your implication that your way is the only correct way.
davids, wow do you manage to miss the point.
Yoda: Wrong. I have stated many times that I think that RL is the smartest poster here. (Some of his insights are so good that I suspect that he has dated a stripper or two in his time, or at least is good friends with many. He does seem to have the "inside scooop" on lots of things.)
As for being smarter than strippers. Depends. Some are definitely clueless. Some of the most experienced ones I still learn lots by talking to. Heck I would say that I have learned just as much by analyzing my discussions interactions with strippers than I have by reading. Surely no one would fault me for that. Probably not even you. But for some reason reading is bad. Do we just have a very anti-intellectual culture here?
AN: And card counters know it is going to take some time to learn how to do it and that they will not be a winner every night.
Interestingly many I talk to don't beleive that card counting is for real.
AN: I like the casino analogy. It think it's like blackjack. Some will go in with no plan or a very bad one and lose consistenly since the math works against them. Then they will claim that is ok because they are just there for entertainment anyway, and all they want is to walk out a winner occassionally. Some may even think they know better than card counters.
Others will learn the fundamental of the game (they may have to admit that their intuitive here isn't that great so formal study and experimentation are called for) and become card counters.
Davids: I don't memorize my posts so if you took the time to do so and caught me in a contradiction than more power to you. I don't consider myself to be anti-intellectual but I prefer to rely on 48 years of life experience and 25 years of strip club experience in particular when I'm in a strip club. If you want to learn how to act from books that's your business, just don't forget to open your mind and see what's actually going on around you once in a while. You can poke fun at my name if you like, I chose it because Yoda is a bit of a smartass-know-it-all and I am too. I have done everything you claim to be trying to accomplish in strip clubs and more. I didn't need a book to figure it out. I go to clubs, I treat dancers well-weather I buy dances, drinks or non of the above, I take advantage of what's offered to me. It's real simple. You think your smarter than everyone on this board and smarter than the dancers you are trying to play. Good luck with that....
davids, you seem to see no difference between what we want and what we go for. Yes, in that perfect world you seem to live in I want to have sex with strippers. I also want sex with Britney Spears and Scarlett Johansen. I also want T-bone steaks for dinner every night. I however live in the real world. Sigh. I've explained this so many times you are either intentionally cluless just to set up another straw man, or you really don't have very good reading comprehension. What I want in that perfect world has nothing to do with why I go to strip clubs. In a consequence free world, where all our desires could be fulfilled free of reprecussions, yes, I might have sex with strippers, t-bone steaks every night, cuban cigars 3 times a day, and stop exercising and brushing my teeth. I guess since I don't do all those things I'm a pathetic loser and in denial. Oh, no wait, there is another word for it. ADULT. See, I understand that in the real world what I "want" at the fantasy level isn't always a good idea. Sorry, I go into strip clubs for entertainment and leave happy, having achieved my goal. I don't go in looking for sex. By your standard anyone that goes into a casino and comes out without breaking the bank is a loser, because their wildest fantasies weren't fulfilled so they should be disappointed and keep trying with new "methods" till they broke the bank. If you can't see the difference between "wanting" something on the level of fantasy and actually trying to acquire it even though that goal will cost more than you want in either time or money and have consequences you'd rather not pay in the real world, you have a very long hard life ahead of you. I don't believe you are that stupid. I think you just thought you could score a rhetorical point. The problem is it just makes you look stupid when you try to argue rhetorically without reference to the meaning or context of statements. I think you and everyone on this board knows exactly what I mean about "wanting sex" and not going into clubs looking for it. Yes, I find strippers sexually attractive. That is the whole point of clubs. Yes, at the level of pure fantasy fulfilment I want to have sex with some of them. No, I don't go into clubs looking for sex. Those are not contradictory statements.
Hey, JC: Have you learned to let go yet? Hehe...
AN: You have admitted to wanting to have sex with strippers, yet you don't get it every time do you? If you do then please tell us your secrets.
Nice try. (Try to think of counter arguments before you post so you can save me 10 or 15 seconds plus typing time in the future, please.)
If entertainment is the bar, believe me I find this learning experience entertaining. Plus some strippers and other waitresses are just plain entertaining and you can learn alot by talking to them.
I post here once about my ATF. Might have been before your time, though. Chandler seems to be pretty good about speculating about things: I will let him speculate about how she broke my heart and fleeced me of all my cash. (Then I will correct him.)
Anyway, maybe you have point. I guess I should post a thread about "cool strippers" sometime. Don't want to turn this into too much of a wankfest though.
JC, stop making up shit. You and davids are delusional if you think my story was anything close to saying that. Quite the opposite.
If davids wants to believe that he will date tons of strippers with his approach and if chandler thinks that if he had done things differently, he would have had sex with Brooke, who am I to argue with them? Reality is doing a better job of doing that than I ever could anyways.
No, a broken heart is among the things that can bring me BACK to strip clubs, but thanks all the same.
davids, I freely admit that you have been upfront about not buying dances, that is not the part I was implying was unethical. Perhaps unethical is too strong a word, I borrowed it from your characterization of Shadowcat, who wether you agree with his activities or not is very up front about what he wants, and what the stripper gets in return. I'll modify unethical to creepy.
As far as your characterization, I've liked a number of strippers over the years, I just don't try to date them. I'll leave it at I just don't want to for my own reasons.
As for my projection I have a question for you. If you are not planning on just bagging a stripper for bragging rights, why are you so determined to cary out a plan to date a stripper? I haven't heard you posting about some great stripper with a wonderful personality you want to get to know better, I've heard you talking about methods and techniques to get "them". I think I'm on fairly solid ground to assume you are doing this as some sort of challenge or conquest, not out of some decision that strippers make the best girlfriends.
As far as looking for dates in strip clubs, I still find it kind of pathetic. I go in looking for entertainment, and I get it every time. How's that compare to your record of getting what you want?
chandler: Oops, I meant to say "lap dance buying regulars". My apologies. Yeah, I guess I'm a regular again.
On a tagent after your Brooke post my guess if that if you go months without going into a strip club it's b/c you are broken hearted and/or fleeced by the latest Brooke like stripper you met.
Good luck, man!
davids: A few weeks of trying a new strategy doesn't make you less of a strip club regular than anyone else here. I often go for months without setting foot in a club, but I would never put on airs about it. I'm sure others here could say the same. Come back after a few years have passed and we can talk about how superior you may or may not be. Until then, you're only beating yourself up with all this ranting about who's pathetic.
Yoda: Well you criticize books and theories, but what is wrong from learning from others? (Actually you seem pretty anti-intellectual in general, so I guess I take that back). Spending $30 on books which is the price of a lap dance, who gives a flying ****?
Do you think you know so much that you cannot learn from others? Often it seems that is the POV you are coming from when you post, and also something your name seems to imply.
Seems to me your numbers aren't that impressive either:
The whole point of formalizing knowledge is to accelerate the learning curve and then once you know to be able to acheive your results quickly. The fact that it is all instinctive for you is nice, but on other hand, it all seems pretty hit and miss too. More like a lottery (to use JC's) analogy than a chess game.
Would you criticize someone for reading books on chess as opposed to learning by just playing? I think most good players learn by doing both.
Yoda: When did I ever say I was the only person in the world able to do this and hence was "special"? Strawman!
I just pointed it out because many doubted that it was possible. Actually you yourself were one of them just recently: You said strippers would not give you the time of day if you did not pay them, then when I said well the opposite is true from me, you said you didn't beleive me. Funny how you change your tune now. Which is the truth, Yoda?
Anyway, my hope is that with you saying this, fewer will doubt me now, and maybe they will even beleive it is possible for themselves and hence stop paying strippers for conversation, and spending money in the hopes of it helping them get somewhere with them.
Davids: You can get girls to talk with you at a strip club without spending money on them. This is special for what reason? Girls that I don't spend money on in clubs talk to me all the time. I had dinner at a dancer's house last month who I haven't bought a dance from in 2 years. If getting laid by a stripper that you spend no money on is your ultimate goal I wish you luck. I've done that too and I didn't need a book or a theory to make it happen. I just met a woman, who happened to be a dancer, who was willing and we hooked up...just like with any other woman. The key here is that, if you don't want to interact with them as dancers you don't treat them as dancers. It sounds like you understand that but I just don't understand why you think that makes you superior to guys who just want to pay for the enjoyment of a strip club experience. It's a no-hassle way to get some strange ass. That's all, nothing more.
AN (and anyone else who wants to comment): Need to ask again:
In your opinion, would I be acting more ethically if I told them in the first minute "Just so you know I am not in here to buy dances. So if you need to make money go and do it."
AN: The fact that you think it's pathetic to look for dates in strip clubs and that you haven't met any that you want to date in ten years (despite having gone out for food/had sex with some) suggest to me that you have a very low opinion of strippers. I think this recent attack of yours "you want to bag them and run" is projecting your own feelings onto me.
AN: I knew that's what you meant, but I'm just saying it's all part of the game. I think it's too judgmental to call it unethical, unless one party really is cooking up a false picture. Is davids talking about doing that? I haven't followed his plans too closely.
SC: Unlike you I am not breaking any laws or doing anything unethical. Why should I?
One interesting thing I've noticed is that many of the strippers who I do chat with regularly now NEVER asked me for a dance.
I asked one why that was and she said that good dancers can tell pretty quickly who is going to buy dances and who isn't, or how much chat is required to make the sale for the ones who are iffy.
Maybe I'll get a t-shirt or cap saying "Sorry, but I don't buy Dances." Then they can't say they weren't warned.
chandler: Just like it didn't bother that you didn't get the sex you wanted (or was it didn't want, can't remember) from Brooke. I understand.
CG: If they get irritated it's there own problem. I'm always honest about the fact that I am not in there to be buy dances. In fact if they stay more than 7 minutes talking I suggest they get back to work so can make some money since they be getting any from me.
davids: On the list of things that bother me, being the umpteenth person to be called names by you for not following the precepts of some dating tips book you read simply does not deserve a mention. Sorry.
I looked back at this thread and I don't get the coworker crap. I haven't ever tried to make friends with coworkers of dancers I may like. However, maybe the coworkers respect a guy just out for a little bit of fun not trying to cause any trouble compared to some guys trying to get phone numbers and irritating the dancers.
Maybe I was naive in the past but some dancers may try to get alone with you OTC and then they start going down on you without even mentioning that's what they were going to do. Of course I never heard any guy complain about free sex.
Most dancers that I have visited outside the club often wanted to get me alone the first time we met. The one dancer that went to a few public places with me actually rode in my car with me to a restaurant the first time we were together OTC and then I took her to her townhouse. By the way, I never intended to hook up with any of the dancers I sometimes ended up visiting outside the club and I had no intention of even trying to hook up with anyone in a strip club. I guess some dancers had other plans that involved me after they met me.
chandler: Ask some strippers what they think of you
a) begging a stripper for sex for an hour, b) calling her for some c) not getting it d) obsessing about it years later
and then tell me who the frustrated clown is.
I'm honored to be added to the club of "enemies" by the frustrated clown of the board.
chandler: get a life, you loser.
Oh I forgot a big huge reason for strippers not wanting to date customers:
Why it is so important to befriend the coworkers.
davids, I think I mentioned before in my bartending days I used to get offers on a pretty regular basis. Admitedly some were a lot more tempting than others, but no, I never dated a customer or a co-worker. I also never accepted a drink while working. I was there to work, not party. As far as strippers reasons for not dating customers I think you are right on number 1, most are attached, but that is no more a reason for a stripper not dating customers than it is for any other woman. I think number 2 may have some basis in reality for some subset of strippers, and we could argue about what they would do if Brad Pitt walked in looking for dates, but that'd be under the catagory of extrordinary circumstances in my opinion. I think most just don't want to date customers for safety reasons. Any "date" with a stripper would probably consist of meeting at a public place and remaining in public the entire time. Repeat for several "dates" until they decide if they feel safe or are getting a stalker vibe. In addition they probably don't want to bring the club life into their OTC life.
"Advise". As if...
davids: No, I like getting what I want. Your misreading of that thread was pure buffoonery.
chandler: Ok, you begged her for sex for an hour, didn't get it. Then you tried to phone her to get some and didn't but you got what you wanted. I got you. (To everyone else I would advise against trying to employ the "chandler method" yourself: for obvious reasons.)
I never really understood why colleges even have rules against that sort of thing. Everyone's an adult. As long as the professor can't cheat and influence the student's academic success.
JC: Lottery? Maybe for some. I think it can be reduced to a chess game myself. Should some people not play chess. I suppose.
JC: Not many teachers set out to date students, but some lose sight of why they are there, and shit happens. That's all AN, Yoda and I were saying about "exceptions".
JC: Colleges and universities have code of ethics against that kind of thing. Think strip clubs too. Besides, I think you'll find those rules are violated quite often, or just obeyed to the letter of the law.
chandler: You're still not ashamed even after you Brooke story? You ought to be.
It's not viewing the world as an excuse for failure. It's keeping it real. Try to put yourself in positions where success is likely. Don't make life and love hard on yourself by putting yourself in positions where success is unlikely. I suppose I could dump $10K on lottery tickets, but maybe it makes more sense to put it in a 12-month CD instead.
davids: Unlike you, some of us are not consumed by shame at being strip club customers and filled with a banal longing to be "different".
chandler and davids, I used to teach at university. Lots of beautiful young coeds in my classes. I didn't approach them for dating, because if I had and someone had reported me, I would have been fired and lost my assistantship. Did I find them attractive? Yes. Did I act on those urges? No. Did I get a job teaching so I could date these young women? No. I was there to make money so I could go to school.
Yoda: not wearing signs = not obvious which ones they are
Chandler: Who said anything about wearing signs? You lost me on that one.
Davids: You do realize that married guys and guys who are otherwise attached ( that is, the vast majority of SC customers) just go to SC'slooking for a strane piece of ass don't you?
I think the real reasons most strippers won't date customers are:
a) most are already attached b) most customers are not suffeciently attractive
I mean, come on guys let's get real: You are at work and there is a beautiful young woman whom you are attracted to who wants to date you. You are going to be like "sorry I don't date customers". Yeah, whatever. Think you guys are trying to view the world with an excuse for failure. Oh that's right you don't want to date strippers and get free sex. I forgot. Please ignore this post.
JC: Do you believe in the possibility of people doing things they don't set out to do? (Pardon me if your post was all a joke I'm not getting.)
What kind of "exceptional" woman works at a strip club looking for someone to date? I mean, I've heard of women going to college for their Mrs. degree; women working as nurses to meet eligible doctors; women working as paralegals to meet eligible lawyers; etc., but working as a stripper to meet eligible horny men who enjoy paying women for sex? That's more exceptional than I'm willing to believe.
Yoda, since it only takes one exception who fits your bill, I'd say the key is that the exceptions don't walk around wearing signs.
Well put AN. And yes, there are always exceptions to the rule but the key is that they are just exceptions. Not the rule.
AN: Excellent analysis. Contrast it with probably the best situation to succeed in picking up women, a singles bar at 1/2 hour before closing. There's a high likelihood that the women there are available to be picked up, and - every bit as importantly - those who aren't available have relatively little interest in pretending to be. So, it's not too difficult to determine which women to try your luck with and which to skip over and not waste your time. On the other hand, strippers at work are not only less available but their signals are, by definition, way harder to sort out.
The "wild cards" are, as Yoda mentions, those strippers who aren't all business. They're more likely to be receptive, but a lifetime of teasing makes them no easy read.
Thank you Yoda. Too often some people in this forum, ahem, forget we are dealing with women who are working. Say what you will about the unique situation of their work environment, the fact that they socialize and seduce as part of their work, they are in the clubs to make a living. When you forget that you start to lose that tenuous grip on reality that keeps us from getting in trouble in clubs. They are not there to date. Would you go to a book store and expect to pick up the cashier? A resturaunt to pick up waitresses? I know my analogy grows old, but my best understanding comes from a few years as a bartender. You are friendly and courteous to all, you have both good and bad customers, but if you're smart you treat them all well. Some you like more than others, some are your "friends" because they make work a lot nicer and tip well. Some people you really do like, are you are genuinely glad to see and spend time with them. It isn't inconceivable you'll some day meet a customer for a drink or a meal, it's just not likely. Your real social life is not centered around work. (And yes, the bartender does get hit on, I'm sure not as much as strippers, and learns how to deflect such things courteously. I used to get a lot of numbers left with the tips. I never really considered using any.) Some people want to tell you their life story or their troubles. I don't want to hear it, but I listen and act like I care anyway. Is this dishonest? Yep. Is it dishonest out of some sort of malice? Nope. They come in for something and you try to give it to them without getting too involved or caught up. That means sometimes you tell people what they want to hear. Sometimes its fun, sometimes its depressing, but you are doing it to get paid, not make friends. That is however a bonus; you get to be social and have fun at work.
Davids: Because it's their job. Any dancer who's serious about making money is only socializing at the club as a means of extracting money from men. Women who spend all night flirting with no-money guys, getting drunk and collecting phone numbers are not serious about making money and don't last long in the business.
JC, fair point. You said believe rather than know, so I interpreted that as you implying it was an impression they have rather than knowledge of a fact.
I never said it was a misconception.
JC, I think that the vast majority of customers DO want to fuck the strippers, so that isn't necessarily a misconception on their part. Given that most strippers are going to be very wary of offers of dates in the clubs, not to mention the obvious stalker problems. The other thing is that to be interested in dating customers, you'd kind of assume the stripper would be unattached. I wonder how often that is the case. Strippers aren't known for being homely, prudish and introverted, so I doubt many go for long without companionship if they want it.
"In your opinion how likely is it that a stripper would find a (single) man who regularly pays for LDs, extras, or conversation attractive?"
I think that depends on how attractive the guy is.
"Would his spending habbits enhance or decrease his attractiveness to strippers or have no effect?"
I think that depends on wether the stripper finds either spending, or not spending attractive in a man.
"What traits do women find attractive anyway? Is there a conflict between these traits and being a single strip club regular?"
I keep hearing "sense of humor". I have my doubts. I've also been told many women look at a man's shoes to judge him. So if you are funny and wear nice shoes, I guess you're in.
"Let's face it: some strippers are pretty attractive."
Kind of the point.
I think it's because they believe that the vast majority of customers are only interested in fucking them, not dating them, and women that look as good as strippers aren't desperately seeking men interested in fucking them.
Yoda: Did some research: 17-25 minutes is the estimate of how long it from meeting a woman to being able to secure a date with her with almost no chance of flaking.
"The VAST majority of dancers are NOT interested in dating customers"
Why do you think that is?
My point was that strippers who are interested in dating customers make decisions rather quickly-I think most women do when they meet a new guy. The VAST majority of dancers are NOT interested in dating customers.
casualguy: Oh, that. That was back when I was thinking of strategies to get good lap dances by making strippers compete with each other for your business. My prespective on strip clubs has changed since that time, although I still think it was good advice for people interested in improving the quality of their lap dances.
davids are you still playing games with strippers? I thought you said before you thought it was a game to get phone numbers but you never wanted to actually meet them OTC.
I think there is a difference between what dancers like in a guy who buys dances - a customer - and what dancer may find attractive in general in men. They wan't our money, they don't want you too push their boundaries and they like it when you are polite, clean and smell good. Beyond that, they could give a rat's ass what you look like. I have a fav who has dated a number of guys she met at work-they where all good looking guys but not very big spenders. She tells me (as do many other dancers) that she decides within a few minutes of meeting a guy at work if she would date him or not.
If what Yoda says is true, then it seems you can ask strippers within a few minutes of meeting them for a date and that money isn't a factor. I tried it twice and it worked, but it seemed too easy so I didn't follow up with phone calls. (Maybe meeting them after work would have been a better strategy.)
The first time was a bit amusing, I came flat out and said I was in the club trying to score a date with a stripper without spending money. Then we had an amusing conversation and I got her number.
The second time I did it was particularly interesting: Hit it off well talking to one, then I told her she should get back to work to make some money since I was just there to talk to some friends. I noticed her looking at me from across the room several times, and then she would suspiciously find herself hanging around near me (proximity alert). "Sit down. Give me your number, I'll call you sometime." "Ok..."
Common factor: both times this happened it was with newer dancers.
Ok, I'm gonna try this one out. Ask them on the first meeting for dates. I'll try both getting numbers (and following up to see if they answer) and ask them to meet after work.
davids: I sincerely would like to see you succeed. For anybody to bag a stripper babe by following a strategy from one of those books would be kind of cool. I'm just not gonna bet on it.
AN: I think it's pathetic for single men to pay for conversation, non-sex or sex in some cases.
And honestly it doesn't matter if strip club regulars in cyberspace think I'm pathetic. The stripper's opinions are what matters. If they think I am pathetic they can stop talking to me.
AN: Like I said, first they doubted they would talk to me for free (many deny it still); then they doubted I could get numbers (many deny it still)... One step at a time. Rome was not built in a day. Remember I stated at the point of being a pathetic LD buying regular, so this is enormous progress already.
Just to whet your appetite though, I tried something new last visit which may have been a major breakthrough (or perhaps it was a bomb)... Too early to report success or failure though.
davids, I understand that you claim to be fully upfront about not buying dances. I still find something unsettling, and truth be told a little pathetic, about going to the clubs looking for dates. I alluded to it as bordering on stalking. Is it your goal to find true love in a strip club or do you just want to bag a stripper as a prize? I think your motive is suspect.
chandler, I certainly have no objections to meaningless sex. I just think it rather unethical to lie to get it when the other party may not agree that it is meaningless. I also understand dancers are grownups, at least chronologically. I also agree that the possibility of davids' methods resulting in anything are limited. He has apparently been to Rick's about once a week for the last month or so according to another post, and I have yet to hear about any success, other than numbers he never followed up on because it was "too easy".
Well chandler they first had their doubts that I could get strippers to even talk to me for free over the long term (many still deny it) or that I could get phone numbers. Yeah I'm still a long way from sex for free (which I guess is the holy grial). I feel I am probably pretty close to dates, but perhaps my calibration is off. We'll just have to see.
Interesting that so many people want to see me fail. I don't understand why that is. If I figure this out I will share whatever useful knowledge I gain. If not, well it doesn't harm the rest of you any. (Maybe some strippers will feel they wasted 7 minutes on me, but it's really their own fault for structuring their sale not to take into account that many customers are not in SCs to buy dances: No rule saying you have to.)
AN:
No tricks. I don't lie about who I am (which is much more than most strippers are ever going to do for you). I only talk for more than 7 minutes to ones I like (note that like does not implying wanting to date or have sex with. I may just want to be friends with tme.) Otherwise I send them away.
The upside to them is that they get to have interesting conversations with someone who is going to treat them as ordinary people and not sexual commodities. Apparently some of them actually like this, and the ones who don't have the option of getting up and leaving at any moment.
In your opinion, would I be acting more ethically if I told them in the first minute "Just so you know I am not in here to buy dances. So if you need to make money go and do it."
Finally, strip clubs are all about fantasy. Hence even if I were to be lying and manipulative (which I am not) it's not really lying and manipulative: It's just fantasy, which the strippers themselves say strip clubs are all about.
AN: Dancers are grown ups and can choose for themselves who to fuck. Are you taking a stand against meaningless sex? That's un-American! It's also a moot issue, unless you really think davids is likely to make it beyond the befriending of busboys stage.
davids, while not illegal, I certainly consider your plans unethical, bordering on stalking. You go into clubs, where the women are essentially a captive audience, they have to be nice to customers to keep their jobs so the chances of outright rejection are very limited. You are planning to spend no money on the dancers, and then somehow to trick or seduce them into having sex with you. Then what? Are you going to continue to date them? Perhaps settle down in a nice house in the 'burbs? Exactly what is the upside for the dancers? I think sooner or later your theories will run into the messiness of reality.
JC: I'm sorry I just need a month or two to recover from the raging laughter that comes over me every time I see your name and remember your "how to let go thread?". Maybe if you tried to make some positive contributions of your own that might help too.